00:30:53 RRSAgent has joined #dpub 00:30:53 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-dpub-irc 00:31:00 rrsagent, set log public 00:31:31 ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F 00:31:51 Meeting: F2F Meeting, Shenzhen, 1st day 00:31:58 Chair: Markus 00:43:21 dauwhe has joined #dpub 00:47:44 gcapiel has joined #dpub 00:51:01 walkley has joined #dpub 00:52:37 dauwhe has joined #dpub 00:55:09 liam has joined #dpub 00:57:05 dauwhe_ has joined #dpub 00:58:19 mgylling has joined #dpub 00:58:46 marilyn has joined #dpub 01:01:06 ivan has changed the topic to: scribe guide: http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F 01:02:07 ivan has changed the topic to: scribe guide: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/scribe.html 01:03:38 test 01:03:51 s/test/TEST/ 01:10:21 tmichel has joined #dpub 01:16:00 zakim, call songshan 01:16:01 sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is 01:16:56 zakim, this is 3782 01:16:56 ivan, I see SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 3782". 01:18:48 karen has joined #dpub 01:26:00 r12a has joined #dpub 01:26:42 Sharad has joined #dpub 01:28:28 Vlad has joined #dpub 01:28:48 scribe: Vlad 01:30:01 markus: introductions and opening of the meeting 01:30:28 s/markus/mgylling/ 01:31:15 mgylling: reviewing the agenda for the day 01:33:00 mgylling: ... and for the whole WG meeting including Tuesday 01:36:58 zakim, call Songshan 01:36:58 sorry, tmichel, I don't know what conference this is 01:38:34 cwdoh has joined #dpub 01:39:21 WG - discussing the additional agenda items for the meeting 01:39:33 s/WG/IG/ 01:41:48 Ralph has joined #dpub 01:42:14 Topic: Pagination 01:42:28 agenda: http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F 01:42:52 topic: Pagination 01:44:09 mgylling: The home for pagintaion spec will be CSS WG. We want to help them with pagination support to improve support in existing browsers 01:45:01 mgylling: among many things we need to do is complete set of requirements 01:45:01 bobby has joined #dpub 01:45:15 mgylling: asking Dave to present 01:45:57 -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/ Dave's draft 01:46:36 Dave Cramer: CSS is working on many things that would be considered building blocks of pagination. We need to figure out what needs to happen there for CSS to become a complete tool kit. 01:47:48 zakim, dial songshan 01:47:49 ok, ivan; the call is being made 01:47:49 SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started 01:47:50 +Songshan 01:48:13 Dave Cramer: It is not a easy job, page is a complex object and we need to be able to identify them (first page of a chapter, paragraph, objects in the page that may require different desing or content) 01:48:55 -Songshan 01:48:56 SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended 01:48:56 Attendees were Songshan 01:49:35 Dave Cramer: ... outlining the scope of work items that have been conducted in CSS 01:50:02 zakim, who is here? 01:50:02 apparently SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended, ivan 01:50:04 On IRC I see bobby, Ralph, cwdoh, Vlad, Sharad, r12a, karen, tmichel, marilyn, mgylling, dauwhe_, liam, walkley, gcapiel, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan, astearns, trackbot, plinss 01:50:11 JeanK has joined #dpub 01:50:22 gerardo: is it problematic to accomplish the process of switching between pages? 01:50:46 zakim, dial songshan 01:50:46 ok, ivan; the call is being made 01:50:47 SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started 01:50:49 +Songshan 01:51:00 +Ralph 01:51:02 -Ralph 01:51:02 +Ralph 01:51:06 Dave Cramer: some of this depends on user agent implementations, some are user-directed actions 01:51:21 -Songshan 01:51:33 +Songshan 01:51:58 Dave Cramer: some page switching is automatic (reached the end of the page and want to switch to the next) 01:52:51 Brady: how do we know what the page run is, what is the page box, etc. Sometimes you may have more than one page on screen? 01:53:13 Gerardo: what is the mechanism to file these questions and requirements? 01:54:01 Brady: beleives this may go outside of the CSS territory and will involve more concepts including work done in HTML 01:55:17 mgylling: today it is unclear what needs to be done and most implementations don't do it right 01:55:57 mgylling: suggests to populate the wiki page with the event requirements for pagination 01:56:47 Dave C, and Markus discussing the needs of the pagination work and how to collect a complete set of issues 01:57:23 Ivan: we may want to discuss this tomorrow (see agenda) when Robin is here 01:59:23 Ivan, Markus, Dave, Brady discussing the work done in HTML WG regarding DOM, pagination events (such as document.ready), etc. 01:59:49 zakim, Gerardo is really gcapiel 01:59:49 sorry, gcapiel, I do not recognize a party named 'Gerardo' 01:59:49 It is unclear what is currently done / implemented vs. what else needs to be done 02:00:17 s/Gerardo/gcapiel/g 02:00:50 -Ralph 02:02:18 bobby_ has joined #dpub 02:02:33 mgylling: creating a list of Functional Requirements on wiki, to be posted here later 02:04:27 bobby__ has joined #dpub 02:05:38 Font load events module link: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-font-load-events/ 02:06:33 ... continuing the discussion of the requirements, catgorizing them for events, DOM, APIs 02:06:49 Guest: Karen (karen) Myers, W3C 02:07:23 Guest: Bobby (bobby) Tung, Wanderer 02:09:18 action gcapiel event s related to TTS and pagination 02:09:18 Created ACTION-9 - Event s related to tts and pagination [on Gerardo Capiel - due 2013-11-18]. 02:09:27 bobby_ has joined #dpub 02:09:52 actioin Brady paginations related to DOM access 02:10:08 action Brady paginations related to DOM access 02:10:08 Created ACTION-10 - Paginations related to dom access [on Brady Duga - due 2013-11-18]. 02:13:57 notes for Brady and Gerardos action items: 02:14:00 Functional Requirements re dynamic pagination: events and DOM 02:14:01 Events: 02:14:02 - book load 02:14:04 - page load 02:14:05 - page change (e.g. reflow after font size change) 02:14:07 - what page loaded 02:14:08 - when a page is loaded 02:14:10 - when a font is loaded (cf CSS3 Fonts Loaded Events Module 3) 02:14:11 - TTS reaches end of page, event to auto-trigger page turn 02:14:13 (note two scenarios: external AT vs self-voicing) 02:14:14 02:14:16 DOM 02:14:17 Whats a page, how to I reference it 02:14:19 I get an event that a page is loaded, how do I get to that page 02:14:20 02:14:21 API 02:14:22 turn a page 02:14:23 go to a page 02:14:53 http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html 02:15:47 bobby has joined #dpub 02:16:21 Dave Cramer: about to present pagintation document 02:16:30 (see link above) 02:16:33 <_nikos_office> _nikos_office has joined #dpub 02:21:42 Ivan: We need to separate the concepts of what's in the spec vs. what is current implementations do 02:23:37 Dave Cramer: we may need to identify additional constraints for aligning pages (speaking about wodows and orphans on a page) 02:23:55 s/wowos/widows/ 02:25:06 RIshida: speaking about the need to identify clear items that need to be addressed by either CSS or HTML or other groups 02:26:29 Ivan: we need to capture and explain the issues that will define the direction for CSS and HTML WGs work 02:27:23 q+ 02:29:11 ack r12a 02:29:20 -Songshan 02:29:21 SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended 02:29:21 Attendees were Songshan, Ralph 02:29:56 cwdoh has joined #dpub 02:30:52 manu has joined #dpub 02:31:00 Present+ Manu_Sporny 02:34:32 Guest: Manu (manu) Sporny, Digital Bazaar 02:34:39 Brady: on the issue of optimizing for page breaks and how it is currently done. A lot of this is currently done manually and the question is if there is an algorithmic solution to this 02:36:30 mgylling: suggestion to review the TOC and discuss the areas that are covered / not covered yet 02:37:10 Dave Cramer: Most of it is jsut a sceleton now to outline what needs to be covered 02:39:05 mgylling: top level questions about locals and cultures, how to transgress both the paper print format and dynamic pagination for adaptive content 02:39:15 ... layout 02:41:03 mgylling: Adobe joined the IG recently and we hope they can contribute from tools perspective 02:43:02 Dave Cramer: items to consider include internationalization, cultural differences, types of content (books, magazines, etc.) we need to address, etc. 02:43:23 s/locals/locales/ 02:44:51 coffee break - 20 min 02:53:16 cwdoh has joined #dpub 03:01:43 Ralph__ has joined #dpub 03:03:36 cwdoh has joined #dpub 03:05:04 bobby has joined #dpub 03:07:32 Ralph has joined #dpub 03:08:05 msiderwicz_ has joined #dpub 03:21:17 bobby has joined #dpub 03:21:24 cwdoh_ has joined #dpub 03:22:06 nikos has joined #dpub 03:22:38 walkley has joined #dpub 03:24:19 scribe: ivan 03:24:26 bobby has joined #dpub 03:25:37 mgylling: we have to settle the scope question 03:25:50 … the document should be clear what is in scope and not 03:25:51 koji has joined #dpub 03:26:00 … probably in the status or in the abstract 03:26:26 … we have noted that we are not willing (yet) to rule out some of the locale issues 03:26:58 dauwhe_: some of us had discussions that widow has their counterpart in, eg, chinese 03:33:59 mgylling: how about we list candidates for exclusion 03:34:18 dauwhe_: maybe we start with domains, and then language etc. 03:34:25 brady_duga has joined #dpub 03:38:38 gcapiel: what is the criteria for exclusion? 03:38:54 dauwhe_: which has some narrow rules that are not applicable outside of that domain 03:39:07 … althogh they may illustrate the extreme issues that are more in common 03:39:43 … eg, religious texts may have very complicated requirements, but, eg the footnotes used in a bible illustrate a lot of problems appearing elsewhere 03:40:11 brady_duga: and if we exclude by simplicity, then we may exclude features that are useful elsewhere 03:41:08 walkley has joined #dpub 03:43:25 ivan: is fixed layout out of scope of this document? 03:43:49 brady_duga: fixed layout is based on explicit techniques and we may not need special css for it 03:45:58 ivan: if we exclude non-books (newspapers, magazines, etc), we have to make it clear that this is not out of scope for the IG but for the first version of the pagination document 03:46:00 r12a has joined #dpub 03:46:40 brady_duga: it is not clear how to define what is a journal or not, 03:47:18 dauwhe_: one of the aspect is that the content spreads opver the document, inclusion of advertising, etc 03:47:33 … industries are organized around these distinctions 03:48:16 jeff: we have to be careful not to use the word 'out of scope', just not to be offputting? 03:48:37 dauwhe_: yes, we should say something like 'our initial concern', something like that 03:48:46 Guest: Jeff Jaffe, W3C 03:52:21 brady_duga: poetry? I am not even sure what the rules are? 03:53:26 koji: CSS has discussed on how much poetry should be covered, left alighn first line, and then other alignments.. 03:53:43 … the group does not really know 03:54:11 dauwhe_: there are a number of books I have that can be turned into CSS without a problem 03:54:54 koji: it is fine to include poetry, but we have to know how publishers want to layout poetry 03:55:15 mgylling: some poetry publishers told me that they use fixed layout 03:55:51 … they did not want a new page for a poem, but rather scroll 03:55:54 … this is not doable 03:56:13 … breaking the poem into multiple pages is not acceptable 03:56:28 koji: we need to talk to poetry publishing 03:56:38 … we really need to discuss them 03:56:41 q+ 03:57:00 q- 03:59:20 these are the domains for which we will request additional editors, and which will be covered in later versions of the pagination doc: 04:00:51 SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started 04:00:58 + +1.917.447.aaaa 04:01:07 - +1.917.447.aaaa 04:01:09 SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended 04:01:09 Attendees were +1.917.447.aaaa 04:02:13 zakim, dial songshan 04:02:13 ok, ivan; the call is being made 04:02:14 SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started 04:02:17 +Songshan 04:02:46 DOMAINS 04:02:47 - newspapers 04:02:48 - magazines 04:02:50 - childrens picture books 04:02:51 - comics / manga 04:02:51 - poetry 04:03:12 mgylling: next area is locales 04:03:20 Guest: Richard Ishida, W3C 04:04:18 dauwhe_: there are ongoing efforts for other languages: indic, korean, chinese 04:04:36 richard: the Chinese IG for HTML5 is working on this 04:05:20 bobby: jlreq completed almost everything, but not applied fully for chinese, so what we have to document is the difference 04:05:37 richard: we would love to find people to do the same for tibetian, thai, hebrew, ... 04:06:02 dauwhe_: my initial insticts were that these should be out of scope 04:06:58 richard: we should have 2 different doc, western layout document, and then there is one that says where css has to cover certain issues. These latter are not necessarily for western only 04:07:17 dauwhe_: that would make sense, it would make it easier to move forward 04:07:19 q+ 04:08:34 Ivan: we need to be clear if we do westernoreq, also need to set up better contacts and relationship with the korean, chinese req groups, be in the loop for documents that are under preparation 04:09:08 zakim, who is here? 04:09:08 On the phone I see Songshan 04:09:10 On IRC I see r12a, walkley, brady_duga, koji, bobby, nikos, cwdoh_, msiderwicz_, Ralph, manu, _nikos_office, Vlad, karen, tmichel, mgylling, dauwhe_, liam, gcapiel, RRSAgent, 04:09:10 ... Zakim, ivan, astearns, trackbot, plinss 04:09:39 richard: it is a bit difficult with i18n is being a separate group 04:09:51 … the best is to find somebody in both groups in general 04:10:01 … we are also looking at requirements, too 04:10:14 … eg I am looking at ways of having counter styles 04:10:28 … and that would be relevant to this group, too 04:10:37 benjaminsko has joined #dpub 04:10:37 mgylling: it sounds like a coordination nightmare 04:11:00 … we need to prepare a document quickly 04:11:17 koji: how about making levels 04:11:20 + +1.917.447.aaaa 04:12:02 zakim, aaa is benjaminsko 04:12:02 sorry, dauwhe_, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa' 04:12:11 zakim, aaaa is benjaminsko 04:12:11 +benjaminsko; got it 04:13:23 ivan: what about non-English cultures and usages? 04:13:48 dauwhe_: pragmatically the content should include what we get input for 04:14:16 mgylling: we would like to get the document good enough that it would be reliable for further work 04:18:35 bobby has joined #dpub 04:20:08 brady_duga: are the other document (jlreq, etc) include all features for publishing 04:20:13 dauwhe_: yes, it does 04:20:49 bobby_ has joined #dpub 04:20:49 richard: it is more oriented to print like stuffs than electronic ones 04:21:01 … the focus was printing, and not pages 04:21:19 koji: it says its focus is for regular priting 04:21:30 richard: the korean will be different, it may be underspecified 04:22:05 … klreq is probably oriented towards print, but will not have so much information than jlreq 04:22:12 … you will need more information 04:22:22 … we need people in countries to develop that 04:22:32 mgylling: and we have to be realistic here 04:22:50 … the core observation seems to be 04:23:19 Resolution: Dave's document will be recast as latinReq. It will once published include only layout expectations (no refs to CSS etc). 04:23:20 There will be an additional separate document which more directly poses requirements on CSS etc, which will draw from jlReq, latinReq, klReq etc. 04:23:59 mgylling: is there anyting in the question list? 04:24:40 dauwhe_: how would the group work on the document itself 04:24:54 … for simplicity is that I filter through me 04:26:12 Topic: Web payments 04:27:01 manu: I am the chair of the RDFa WG and the JSON-LD community group, and I am also co-chair of the web payment CG 04:27:12 … the goal is to integrate payment into the architecture of the web 04:27:32 … ie, the browser should offer a facility where payment would go directly to the user 04:27:40 Ralph__ has joined #dpub 04:27:45 … web payment should make it very easy to buy books on line 04:28:02 … the question is whether this is of interest for this group? 04:28:25 dauwhe_: we are certainly interested in the concept 04:28:37 brady_duga: I am happy to bring the knowledge back 04:29:17 Vlad: is it somethign that you envisage something to be that would replace the commercial solutions? 04:29:30 s/somethign/something/ 04:29:31 manu: that is certainly what we would like to be 04:29:45 … json-ld as well as RDFa was for interest for us for this reason 04:30:04 … eg, having the license, bills, etc, sent back in machine readable ways 04:30:15 https://payswarm.com/intro 04:30:34 … it is not only getting money from A to B, but other things 04:30:59 https://payswarm.com/join 04:31:42 mgylling: do we believe that the current ebook retail work has usage pattern that would challenge your model 04:31:50 … I do not know, but it is a question 04:32:04 dauwhe_: we are of course interested to change the patterns 04:32:30 manu: selling ebooks are of course a big use case for us 04:32:42 … we would like to have more expertise in the group 04:33:00 mgylling: we certainly have to take this back to our companies, because we are geeks here... 04:34:55 cwdoh has joined #dpub 04:36:47 bobby_ has joined #dpub 04:39:03 bobby__ has joined #dpub 04:41:11 bobby___ has joined #dpub 04:42:00 rrsagent, draft minutes 04:42:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-dpub-minutes.html ivan 04:42:50 koji has joined #dpub 04:44:55 -benjaminsko 04:44:58 -Songshan 04:44:59 SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended 04:44:59 Attendees were Songshan, +1.917.447.aaaa, benjaminsko 04:53:44 Ralph has left #dpub 05:21:34 cwdoh has joined #dpub 05:30:23 dauwhe has joined #dpub 05:37:41 liam has joined #dpub 05:38:33 ivan has joined #dpub 05:42:10 walkley has joined #dpub 05:42:40 nikos has joined #dpub 05:44:33 koji has joined #dpub 05:44:38 tmichel has joined #dpub 05:46:29 mgylling has joined #dpub 05:47:01 tm has joined #dpub 05:58:15 r12a has joined #dpub 06:08:59 tmichel__ has joined #dpub 06:09:59 karen has joined #dpub 06:15:56 gcapiel has joined #dpub 06:17:28 koji has joined #dpub 06:20:11 cwdoh has joined #dpub 06:23:29 cwdoh has joined #dpub 06:31:30 dauwhe has joined #dpub 06:33:22 mgylling has joined #dpub 06:34:22 cwdoh has joined #dpub 06:34:22 liam has joined #dpub 06:35:04 brady_duga has joined #dpub 06:36:10 kawabata2 has joined #dpub 06:36:11 r12a has joined #dpub 06:36:53 walkley has joined #dpub 06:37:20 ivan has joined #dpub 06:38:05 nikos has joined #dpub 06:38:06 scribe: dauwhe 06:38:11 topic: csswg summary 06:38:23 dsinger has joined #dpub 06:38:34 Zakim has left #dpub 06:38:42 Zakim has joined #dpub 06:39:03 zakim, this is dpub 06:39:03 sorry, ivan, I do not see a conference named 'dpub' in progress or scheduled at this time 06:39:12 Vlad has joined #dpub 06:39:29 mgylling: atomic advice from discussion 06:39:44 ... if you can't have a unicorn, can you have a pony? 06:39:53 zakim, this is 3782 06:39:53 sorry, ivan, I do not see a conference named '3782' in progress or scheduled at this time 06:40:02 ... csswg asked what would be second-best solution for these use cases 06:40:20 ... this idea of fallback may apply to more than csswg 06:40:23 Sharad has joined #dpub 06:40:27 ... they asked for as much detail as possible 06:40:32 bobby has joined #dpub 06:40:44 ... document even edge cases; this will save solution designers lots of guessing 06:41:14 ... don't have to prioritize everything, but certainly mention most important things of document 06:41:43 Richard: do on locale-by-locale basis, with documentation 06:41:57 s/Richard/r12a/ 06:42:07 r12a: asked for lots of examples 06:42:28 brady_duga: they also asked for data. 06:42:56 ... if we can provide evidence for various requirements, the more the better 06:43:27 ivan: although a certain feature is primarily for publishing, it's also useful for tradional browsing. 06:43:34 ivan: Bert said that. 06:43:49 ... the motivation was to convince those less interested in pagination to work on that 06:44:09 r12a: Dean was very focued on how market prioritizes features. 06:44:47 ... Apple agrees ruby feature is great, but won't implement because of lack of evicdence/market 06:45:04 mgylling: is it DPUB's place to gather evidence? 06:45:23 ... asks Brady how they get data/priorities from publishers. 06:45:37 brady_duga: publisher-driven based on blackmail 06:45:39 gcapiel has joined #dpub 06:45:54 ... line breaking is terrible. But people still buy our books. 06:47:08 dsinger: it's important to say that your book can't be sold unless feature x is implemented. 06:47:44 brady_duga: hanging punctuation as example 06:47:57 ivan: reaching out to publishers becomes very important 06:48:11 ... use IPDF contacts to get data on priorities 06:48:22 mgylling: that applies across everything we do 06:48:58 ... this is something new. A dedicated survey: these are the requirements we've gathered. Prioritize them for us. 06:49:12 ... that's one way to get there. I don't see how we can easily gather data. 06:49:20 ivan: we will see what we can do. 06:49:55 mgylling: in terms of moving forward, concrete proposal. As soon as there's a new section in pagination doc, to ask Dave to suggest agenda item for CSS telcom 06:50:16 ... so they can review. DPUB members can then join CSSWG telcom to discuss particular issue. 06:50:28 ivan: Bert is in both groups. 06:50:42 mgylling: anything else to encode from previous session? Great! 06:50:54 ... ten minutes till coffee break! 06:51:27 ... Vlad, set stage for fonts and typography session. What kinds of problems/issues will we discuss? 06:51:41 ... important for us to understand what you're working on. 06:51:53 gcapiel1 has joined #dpub 06:51:56 ... give us ten minutes to talk about overarching issues. 06:52:18 gcapiel has joined #dpub 06:52:22 Vlad: it's not what's in my brain, or from my company. It's from the people I interact with, people with actual problems. 06:52:33 ... that's how I created set of issues 06:52:42 ... tried to create categorys. 06:52:55 ... first: font licensing. From discussions with publishers. 06:53:12 ... are publishing legally allowed to use existing font licensing? 06:53:21 ... under what conditions can it be used? 06:53:38 ... we cannot influence the license itself. 06:54:00 ... if I have a license, is there enough of a toolset to embed fonts and satisfy conditions of license. 06:54:15 ... license may say that font cannot *easily* be used. 06:54:23 ... not clear how these tools work. 06:54:35 ... some people are unaware of tools. 06:54:47 ... they start with predisposition to assume they can't use fonts. 06:55:15 ... my own position has been that if you use a font, in any format that cannot easily be pulled out and reused. 06:55:48 ... if you just have to do something, touch font to reuse, then that takes responsibiliy away from publisher 06:56:01 ... requires a willful act from the third party, so they are the infringer. 06:56:12 ... that infringer is in violation of IP laws. 06:56:24 ... the people who do this are not likely to be our customers. 06:56:43 ... they are usually isolated acts which don't affect business in general. 06:56:56 ... this is MT position, but not whole industry. 06:57:06 ... obfuscating is enough 06:57:43 ... so publishers doing something like this satisfies licensing requirements 06:57:52 Ivan: is this what WOFF was for? 06:58:09 Vlad: we didn't want to deal with licensing when creating WOFF format. 06:58:34 dauwhe_ has joined #dpub 06:58:42 ... satisfies many requirements. Transparent mech. for fonts in the web, can't be immediately used by other 06:59:06 ... applications. No technical burden getting font out of WOFF format, but that makes infringement willful. 06:59:27 Ivan: In group we've agreed that's enough 06:59:40 ... WOFF has metadata on how to aquire font license 06:59:54 s/Ivan:/Vlad:/ 06:59:59 ... there's a secondary mechanism to put some boundaries on what type of content can be used 07:00:14 ... that access control mech. is universal 07:00:41 ... if it's normal web architecture, people ask questions 07:01:02 ... is situation the same for offline/packaged use? 07:01:08 ... most questions coming from publishers. 07:01:27 ... they are often at a loss whether they can use fonts without violating license. 07:01:33 ... so that's one big bucket. 07:01:41 ... this is a problem of educating users. 07:01:53 mgylling: can w3c or OWP help? 07:02:24 Vlad: make some document to refer to. EPUB has font obsfucation, to create strong tie between document and font resource 07:02:35 ... web doesn't have that. OK with dynamic content 07:02:53 Ivan: that's not a technical issue, but a usage issue 07:03:13 mgylling: OWP platform does not create a strong tie between font and document for 07:03:32 Ivan: that tie does exist. Do you want inverse? 07:03:59 Vlad: CSS gives mechanism to reference font. Doesn't say you can use that resource for ONLY that doc. 07:04:25 ... EPUB uses CSS declaration, but you also have font obsfucation that modifies font header with doc-specific key 07:04:38 ... so if you pull that font out of one epub and move to another it won't work. 07:04:53 ... that mechanism isn't clear to lots of publishers. 07:05:13 ... that removes you from license violation. 07:05:27 ... WOFF doesn't modify font. 07:05:38 ... is useable everywhere. 07:05:53 ... but WOFF gives you metadata saying font was licensed to publisher Y 07:06:08 ... at least it gives enough information for anyone to use that font legally. 07:06:24 ... also provides enough information to prevent anyone from claiming ignorance. 07:06:42 ... tryed to prevent unwilling infringement. 07:07:11 ... example: TTF font on server, can easily download, could claim you didn't know that was illegal. 07:07:17 ... WOFF is different. 07:07:33 ... can't claim you're innocent bystander. 07:07:45 Ivan: that mechanism exists today, the WOFF metadata 07:07:51 ... what is missing? 07:07:59 cwdoh has joined #dpub 07:08:16 msiderwicz_ has joined #dpub 07:08:22 Vlad: Monotype says that WOFF file is embedded in digital publishing resource, portable offline document, that's good enough for me. 07:08:35 walkley has joined #dpub 07:08:38 ... but people/publishers don't think that's the case, are afraid of becoming liable. 07:08:50 mgylling: OWP does not need a font obsfucation mechanism. 07:09:02 Vlad: we need more people be aware of issue. 07:09:19 ... so we can agree embedding WOFF resource is OK. Is good enough. 07:09:48 gcapiel: is there a machine-readable way to know if license is OK? 07:10:42 brady_duga: WOFF is restricted by origin? I'm confused about--if I figure out how to reference the same file from the original origin 07:10:56 ... if I sell that book is that a problem? Origin is the same. 07:11:08 Vlad: issue of origin is non-issue with offline content. 07:11:22 ... once file is offline, http doesn't apply. 07:11:36 ... don't see how that mech. can work for offline. 07:12:21 Ivan: from IG point of view, this is a non-issue. 07:12:27 Vlad: I agree. 07:12:42 ... users need clear guidance. 07:12:55 Ivan: IDPF developed technology. 07:13:31 cwdoh_ has joined #dpub 07:13:49 ... IPDF should make it clear that obsfucation is not necessary for WOFF in EPUB 07:14:02 brady_duga: is this harmful? 07:14:28 Ivan: from IG perspective it's not an issue. 07:14:37 brady_duga: you're right. 07:14:46 mgylling: not seeing new requirements here. 07:15:15 ... IDPF says that foundries need to communicate better with customers to clarify offline usage rights. 07:15:21 ... are we misunderstanding? 07:15:35 Vlad: Monotype doesn't see an issue here. 07:15:42 ... question is asked multiple times. 07:15:48 ... not explained anywhere. 07:15:53 ... is it our job to explain? 07:16:01 ... do we need overveiw to reference? 07:16:11 s/overveiw/overview/ 07:16:28 Ivan: if I look at the IG charter: 07:16:49 dauwhe has joined #dpub 07:16:56 ... these are W3C technologys important to publishing industry 07:17:02 s/blackmail/market pressures/ 07:17:17 Vlad: when we talk about digital publishing technologies are we online or offline 07:17:30 mgylling: scope of this group is the future. 07:17:43 ... cover needs of digital publishing both online and offline 07:18:18 Vlad: confusing part is diff. between EPUB w/ two types of font resource and obsfucation can work, but online only WOFF works 07:18:33 ... needs to be better explained 07:18:49 mgylling: have OWP support obsfucation of non-WOFF fonts. 07:18:54 Vlad: if we agree to that, yes. 07:19:08 ... other choice is to only use WOFF 07:19:15 mgylling: what are the stats? 07:19:28 Vlad: on web, nearly everything is WOFF. 07:19:47 ... we serve WOFF to every user agent that supports WOFF. 07:20:39 Vlad: next issue; not only about spec, but about what implementions actually do 07:20:52 ... in EPUB2, many implementations had optional obsfucation 07:21:01 ... not all RS implement. 07:21:18 ... that's a problem. 07:21:39 mgylling: coffee break. 07:25:05 cwdoh has joined #dpub 07:25:49 dsinger has joined #dpub 07:31:30 koji has joined #dpub 07:33:07 bobby has joined #dpub 07:36:01 taocai has joined #dpub 07:36:50 msiderwicz_ has joined #dpub 07:40:23 walkley has joined #dpub 07:41:19 cwdoh has joined #dpub 07:47:52 cwdoh_ has joined #dpub 07:52:19 walkley has joined #dpub 07:55:58 gcapiel1 has joined #dpub 07:56:41 koji has joined #dpub 07:57:00 gcapiel2 has joined #dpub 07:59:50 koji has joined #dpub 08:02:27 mgylling: to summarize prev. session, the first of the two "Vladimir Buckets" 08:02:40 ... no obvious requirements on OWP regarding rights expressions on fonts 08:03:05 ... generalizing from Vlad's position, WOFF features are enough for both online and offline use 08:03:20 ... no equivalent metadata expression 08:03:34 Vlad: explicitly express restrictions 08:03:38 gcapiel has joined #dpub 08:03:53 mgylling: not a W3C issue, more an issue of Foundries and IDPF being more clear on distinctions. 08:05:27 Vlad: can we document that WOFF is required technology that is relevant to Digital Publishing (as part of charter) 08:05:36 ddahl has joined #dpub 08:06:11 RESOLVED: DPUB will add WOFF to list of required technologies for Digital Publishing. 08:06:32 Vlad: complaining about typography being not as good as print 08:06:38 ... different tools and processes. 08:06:51 frank has joined #dpub 08:06:52 ... they have full control of content that is printed 08:07:05 Sharad has joined #dpub 08:07:07 ... reproduction part of digital pubishing is delegated to unknown user agent 08:07:21 ... so publishers have little control of final result 08:07:37 ... don't know what typographic features will be there 08:07:52 ... there are many checkpoints between digital content and final presentation of that content 08:08:02 ... until recently CSS Fonts was fluid document 08:08:14 ... implementation a year ago is now different 08:08:24 ... is now CR 08:08:40 ... even though we now have spec, we don't necessarily have implementaions 08:08:52 ... how can interest group facilitate uptake of spec 08:09:07 ... do we need stronger set of requirements that it must be supported. 08:09:28 Ivan: example? 08:09:36 Vlad: scientific publications 08:09:41 ... not talking about math 08:09:54 ... have text flowing around objects with formulas, etc. 08:10:16 ... or don't have control over kerning or vertical positioning 08:10:25 ... combine chinese and english in one sentence 08:10:41 Ivan: the kind of question I was asking on half-space around punctuation 08:10:54 ... each feature in isolation has a small impact 08:11:10 ... but the aggregate distinguishes good typography from bad 08:11:17 marilyn has joined #dpub 08:11:42 koji: but these things aren't about fonts 08:11:52 Ivan: typography has lots of parts 08:11:57 s/Ivan/Vlad/ 08:12:29 Vlad: year ago, CSS3 font features... demo from then doesn't work now 08:12:58 astearns: question about things aren't up to snuff on web platform. One of them was kerning. Letter positoin in general? 08:13:05 ... or adding kerning table to document 08:13:16 Vlad: not kerning table, talking about info in font 08:13:25 astearns: so it's the font data itself. 08:13:44 Vlad: sometimes that information is not presented in the font. Sometimes it is in font but not used by reading system. 08:13:53 ... people see end result, but don't see where issue is. 08:14:04 s/positoin/position/ 08:14:13 ... people just see that it's wrong 08:14:29 ... important small things. 08:14:56 astearns: requireing browsers to use kern data in the font is something that would go in CSS3 text 08:15:08 ... if browsers are not doing enough, that's what we need to lock down in CSS spec. 08:15:30 Vlad: I was talking about capturing high-level requirements to then translate into CSS 08:15:40 koji: Are you talking feature stablilty? 08:15:44 walkley has joined #dpub 08:16:09 Vlad: one issue is lack of support for already-specified features 08:16:19 msiderwicz_ has joined #dpub 08:16:30 Ivan: try to collect both pagination features and typographic features 08:16:56 ... it's more work 08:17:01 Vlad: I'm the messenger 08:17:14 ... I collect these from companies like Dave's 08:17:26 ... these are people who struggle to control fine details of presentation 08:17:47 mgylling: parts is implemenation problem. Are there also specification issues? 08:17:55 astearns: yes, there are spec issues. 08:18:36 ... control over glyph position in line box is insufficiently specified for publisher requirements. 08:18:45 ... line grids 08:19:08 liam has joined #dpub 08:19:41 nikos has joined #dpub 08:19:50 dauwhe: control over justification parameters 08:19:58 Ivan: some stuff may be pushed to CSS 4 08:20:13 astearns: CSS decided to punt on justification ranges, it's future work. 08:20:38 r12a: there are specific things we need to address, but there are things in css already that are not being implemented. 08:20:46 ... so we need to talk to implementers. 08:20:59 Ivan: yes. we need test suite to help developers 08:21:06 s/Ivan/Vlad/ 08:21:23 Vlad: by zeroing down on specific issues we may lose bigger picture 08:21:39 ... we may not be ready to drill down at individual spec level 08:21:56 ... we need higher level conversation first, not dive directly to glyph positioning 08:22:17 ... CSS3 fonts defines support for font features. 08:22:31 ... to support font features you need implementations supporting that part of spec 08:22:43 walkley has joined #dpub 08:22:43 ... and you need to enable authors to discover the same features. 08:22:59 ... a whole another issue. 08:23:07 ... tools need to expose these features 08:25:01 Vlad: there's a set of tools developed by Monotype; tool will tell you what font features are available 08:25:19 ... if characters are CT, some fonts will have a swash for these, some won't. 08:25:26 ... discovery tools are needed. 08:25:54 mgylling: not obvious yes or no for us to develop requirements for authoring tools 08:26:00 ... this opens a can of worms. 08:26:10 Ivan: let's try to keep to what we agreed to do 08:26:20 ... authoring tool world becomes a nightmare 08:26:45 dsinger: will this put into the CSS the fact that I want "CT" replaced with ligature 08:27:06 ... finding what fonts do is not a problem for this group 08:28:07 astearns: CSS font spec allows us to turn on substitution for particular element, 08:28:14 ... this span with those two characters. 08:28:21 ... can do character by character 08:28:44 ... if you get to fallback font that doesn't support the feature, that turning on of feature does nothing. 08:28:58 r12a: that's an example of what Vlad was talking about. 08:29:21 ddahl has joined #dpub 08:29:24 Vlad: the bigger issue is that we want to reduce the difference between creation and rendering. 08:29:30 ... sometimes implementation problem 08:29:36 ... sometimes resource get subsituted. 08:29:51 ... sometimes can't reuse print process for digital 08:29:57 ... trying to bring bigger scope 08:30:02 gcapiel1 has joined #dpub 08:30:08 mgylling: to enable faithful representation down the line 08:30:22 ... we need to break down to concrete atomic problems 08:30:32 Vlad: one bucket is discovery of font features 08:30:36 ... don't know if in scope 08:30:52 mgylling: authoring tool feature requirements is out of scope 08:31:24 astearns: there are stages involved. 08:31:33 ... gathering requirements 08:31:38 ... then turn to features 08:31:50 ... then see if those features can be exposed to tools 08:32:04 mgylling: how to translate easy to discover font features 08:32:23 astearns: we have a step where we consider tooling 'cause one chair writes tools 08:32:34 ... the font feature that exposes OT features is not tool-friendly 08:32:40 ... but even less author friendly 08:32:51 ... tools will expose eventually, and authors will use tools 08:33:02 ... because feature is too obstruse for normal authors 08:33:25 mgylling: to translate to requirement for OWP 08:33:35 ... fonts have mechanism where fonts declare their available features 08:33:45 ... and make it easy for tool providers 08:33:57 koji: for CSS fonts case 08:34:08 ... matter of timing 08:34:13 ... css fonts is WD 08:34:19 ... not implemented in browser 08:34:27 ... spec was unstable, unsupported 08:34:46 ... once CR PR then more likely browser suppported and then tool supported 08:35:05 ... using features after PR solves most issues 08:35:25 ... help specs move faster to rec track 08:35:38 astearns: that timing issue will factor in to the toolability of this particular feature 08:35:48 ... web platform doesn't have restrospection yet 08:36:27 mgylling: what other features are needed? 08:36:34 koji_ has joined #dpub 08:36:34 ... what have you heard, VLad? 08:36:45 s/restrospection/introspection into features available for a particular font/ 08:36:52 gcapiel: let's check in with MathJax folks 08:37:08 Vlad: missing technology on font side for math support 08:37:27 ... ISO has published a proposal for math layout technology 08:38:28 Guest: Richard (r12a) Ishida, W3C 08:38:57 scribenick: r12a 08:39:03 dave: we want concrete imperatives, atomic? 08:40:16 gcapiel has joined #dpub 08:40:18 dave mentions justification and line breaking controls, composing fractions 08:40:27 ... hanging punctuation, fractions (font typography related) - in the old days we made a fraction font, it was so important 08:40:43 ... kerning pair editing 08:41:09 ... sometimes we put spans around two letters with special spacing 08:42:00 ... typically manually editng the html - eg. with drop caps, and maybe 4-5 different types of spacing 08:42:25 ivan: sounds frightening 08:42:43 dave: but thats what needs to be done 08:43:03 koji: format like epub, most publishers allow user to change font... 08:43:37 vlad: i don't dave is advocating to do the way previously done - its just an example of how much work goes into miniscule adjustments 08:43:40 koji has joined #dpub 08:43:58 koji: is the goal of this document to describe what was done in printing or what we want 08:44:09 dave: describe best practices 08:44:25 astearns: good sense to describe current practise whether or not 08:44:59 vlad: don't want digital publishing to be a poor relative of printing 08:45:14 dave: especially with the exquisite fonts that are now produced 08:45:57 brady: careful work for drop caps with hand adjustment fails when the user changes font 08:46:48 koji: group needs a list of requirements for other groups 08:47:04 ... in the middle we have another list of what we want in digital publishing 08:47:36 dave: requirement that drop caps don't clash should be solved 08:48:26 ... it doesn't work well in browsers now, but it should 08:48:37 markus: where do we document these? 08:48:59 ivan: who will do the work? may be too much to ask dave to write it 08:49:10 ... could someone else help create the content 08:50:02 markus: kerning etc do not need the tutorial stuff around them, so we may be able to put these requirements on the wiki directly 08:50:35 vlad: we need to collect these requirements from various publishers - they will have slightly different requirements 08:50:52 markus: vlad would you be willing to collect these things on the wiki 08:51:01 vlad: i'm not sure I can do this 08:51:54 ... i hear of the problems, but i don't work with them 08:52:44 dave: we need to snag someone from the community who are trying to solve these problems in the comp houses 08:53:26 ... we don't have many such w3c members 08:53:32 ivan: we're working on that 08:54:20 koji: i'm working on a spreadsheet in japan and asking publishers to fill in issues - 40% author issues, 30% implementation, 10% css 08:54:42 vlad: any other publishers? 08:54:53 pearson 08:55:18 vlad: even educational book publishers 08:56:08 markus: there are two things, we all know we need experts, but someone also needs to coordinate the work 08:56:23 ... would you be willing to collect and describe (rather than be the expert) 08:56:29 vlad: i'll try 08:56:46 markus: so you'll be the hub and get things moving 08:57:03 ivan: on the long term i think this may become a separate document 08:57:16 markus: eventually nothing will remain a wiki page 08:58:04 r12a: don't forget jlreq 08:58:40 dave: i'm concerned that it might be hard to disentangle things - typography affects page layout 08:59:55 Agreed: Vlad agrees to be coordinator to collect and marshall these requirements - try to bring in people from Aptara and Jouve to supply expertise 09:00:33 vlad: can we get input from people outside the w3c 09:00:37 answer yes 09:01:02 vlad: success depends on input - we shouldn't limit to members 09:01:49 walkley: i chair Uk digital publishing association so i can get them involved 09:02:00 ivan mentions others 09:04:14 zakim, who is here? 09:04:14 sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is 09:04:16 On IRC I see koji, gcapiel, ddahl, walkley, liam, Sharad, frank, taocai, bobby, dsinger, dauwhe, Vlad, Zakim, ivan, r12a, kawabata2, brady_duga, mgylling, tmichel__, benjaminsko, 09:04:16 ... manu, _nikos_office, RRSAgent, astearns, trackbot, plinss 09:04:20 ADJOURNED for today 09:04:23 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:04:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-dpub-minutes.html ivan 09:04:37 meet for restaurant at 6pm in lobby 09:04:55 rrsagent, bye 09:04:55 I see no action items