IRC log of dpub on 2013-11-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:30:53 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
00:31:00 [ivan]
rrsagent, set log public
00:31:31 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: agenda:
00:31:51 [ivan]
Meeting: F2F Meeting, Shenzhen, 1st day
00:31:58 [ivan]
Chair: Markus
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ivan has changed the topic to: scribe guide:
01:02:07 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: scribe guide:
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01:16:00 [ivan]
zakim, call songshan
01:16:01 [Zakim]
sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is
01:16:56 [ivan]
zakim, this is 3782
01:16:56 [Zakim]
ivan, I see SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 3782".
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scribe: Vlad
01:30:01 [Vlad]
markus: introductions and opening of the meeting
01:30:28 [Vlad]
01:31:15 [Vlad]
mgylling: reviewing the agenda for the day
01:33:00 [Vlad]
mgylling: ... and for the whole WG meeting including Tuesday
01:36:58 [tmichel]
zakim, call Songshan
01:36:58 [Zakim]
sorry, tmichel, I don't know what conference this is
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01:39:21 [Vlad]
WG - discussing the additional agenda items for the meeting
01:39:33 [Vlad]
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01:42:14 [ivan]
Topic: Pagination
01:42:28 [mgylling]
01:42:52 [Vlad]
topic: Pagination
01:44:09 [Vlad]
mgylling: The home for pagintaion spec will be CSS WG. We want to help them with pagination support to improve support in existing browsers
01:45:01 [Vlad]
mgylling: among many things we need to do is complete set of requirements
01:45:01 [bobby]
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01:45:15 [Vlad]
mgylling: asking Dave to present
01:45:57 [ivan]
-> Dave's draft
01:46:36 [Vlad]
Dave Cramer: CSS is working on many things that would be considered building blocks of pagination. We need to figure out what needs to happen there for CSS to become a complete tool kit.
01:47:48 [ivan]
zakim, dial songshan
01:47:49 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
01:47:49 [Zakim]
SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started
01:47:50 [Zakim]
01:48:13 [Vlad]
Dave Cramer: It is not a easy job, page is a complex object and we need to be able to identify them (first page of a chapter, paragraph, objects in the page that may require different desing or content)
01:48:55 [Zakim]
01:48:56 [Zakim]
SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended
01:48:56 [Zakim]
Attendees were Songshan
01:49:35 [Vlad]
Dave Cramer: ... outlining the scope of work items that have been conducted in CSS
01:50:02 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
01:50:02 [Zakim]
apparently SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended, ivan
01:50:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bobby, Ralph, cwdoh, Vlad, Sharad, r12a, karen, tmichel, marilyn, mgylling, dauwhe_, liam, walkley, gcapiel, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan, astearns, trackbot, plinss
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01:50:22 [Vlad]
gerardo: is it problematic to accomplish the process of switching between pages?
01:50:46 [ivan]
zakim, dial songshan
01:50:46 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
01:50:47 [Zakim]
SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started
01:50:49 [Zakim]
01:51:00 [Zakim]
01:51:02 [Zakim]
01:51:02 [Zakim]
01:51:06 [Vlad]
Dave Cramer: some of this depends on user agent implementations, some are user-directed actions
01:51:21 [Zakim]
01:51:33 [Zakim]
01:51:58 [Vlad]
Dave Cramer: some page switching is automatic (reached the end of the page and want to switch to the next)
01:52:51 [Vlad]
Brady: how do we know what the page run is, what is the page box, etc. Sometimes you may have more than one page on screen?
01:53:13 [Vlad]
Gerardo: what is the mechanism to file these questions and requirements?
01:54:01 [Vlad]
Brady: beleives this may go outside of the CSS territory and will involve more concepts including work done in HTML
01:55:17 [Vlad]
mgylling: today it is unclear what needs to be done and most implementations don't do it right
01:55:57 [Vlad]
mgylling: suggests to populate the wiki page with the event requirements for pagination
01:56:47 [Vlad]
Dave C, and Markus discussing the needs of the pagination work and how to collect a complete set of issues
01:57:23 [Vlad]
Ivan: we may want to discuss this tomorrow (see agenda) when Robin is here
01:59:23 [Vlad]
Ivan, Markus, Dave, Brady discussing the work done in HTML WG regarding DOM, pagination events (such as document.ready), etc.
01:59:49 [gcapiel]
zakim, Gerardo is really gcapiel
01:59:49 [Zakim]
sorry, gcapiel, I do not recognize a party named 'Gerardo'
01:59:49 [Vlad]
It is unclear what is currently done / implemented vs. what else needs to be done
02:00:17 [Vlad]
02:00:50 [Zakim]
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02:02:33 [Vlad]
mgylling: creating a list of Functional Requirements on wiki, to be posted here later
02:04:27 [bobby__]
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02:05:38 [dauwhe_]
Font load events module link:
02:06:33 [Vlad]
... continuing the discussion of the requirements, catgorizing them for events, DOM, APIs
02:06:49 [ivan]
Guest: Karen (karen) Myers, W3C
02:07:23 [ivan]
Guest: Bobby (bobby) Tung, Wanderer
02:09:18 [Vlad]
action gcapiel event s related to TTS and pagination
02:09:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-9 - Event s related to tts and pagination [on Gerardo Capiel - due 2013-11-18].
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02:09:52 [Vlad]
actioin Brady paginations related to DOM access
02:10:08 [Vlad]
action Brady paginations related to DOM access
02:10:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-10 - Paginations related to dom access [on Brady Duga - due 2013-11-18].
02:13:57 [mgylling]
notes for Brady and Gerardos action items:
02:14:00 [mgylling]
Functional Requirements re dynamic pagination: events and DOM
02:14:01 [mgylling]
02:14:02 [mgylling]
- book load
02:14:04 [mgylling]
- page load
02:14:05 [mgylling]
- page change (e.g. reflow after font size change)
02:14:07 [mgylling]
- what page loaded
02:14:08 [mgylling]
- when a page is loaded
02:14:10 [mgylling]
- when a font is loaded (cf CSS3 Fonts Loaded Events Module 3)
02:14:11 [mgylling]
- TTS reaches end of page, event to auto-trigger page turn
02:14:13 [mgylling]
(note two scenarios: external AT vs self-voicing)
02:14:14 [mgylling]
02:14:16 [mgylling]
02:14:17 [mgylling]
Whats a page, how to I reference it
02:14:19 [mgylling]
I get an event that a page is loaded, how do I get to that page
02:14:20 [mgylling]
02:14:21 [mgylling]
02:14:22 [mgylling]
turn a page
02:14:23 [mgylling]
go to a page
02:14:53 [dauwhe_]
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02:16:21 [Vlad]
Dave Cramer: about to present pagintation document
02:16:30 [Vlad]
(see link above)
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02:21:42 [Vlad]
Ivan: We need to separate the concepts of what's in the spec vs. what is current implementations do
02:23:37 [Vlad]
Dave Cramer: we may need to identify additional constraints for aligning pages (speaking about wodows and orphans on a page)
02:23:55 [Vlad]
02:25:06 [Vlad]
RIshida: speaking about the need to identify clear items that need to be addressed by either CSS or HTML or other groups
02:26:29 [Vlad]
Ivan: we need to capture and explain the issues that will define the direction for CSS and HTML WGs work
02:27:23 [r12a]
02:29:11 [ivan]
ack r12a
02:29:20 [Zakim]
02:29:21 [Zakim]
SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended
02:29:21 [Zakim]
Attendees were Songshan, Ralph
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02:31:00 [manu]
Present+ Manu_Sporny
02:34:32 [ivan]
Guest: Manu (manu) Sporny, Digital Bazaar
02:34:39 [Vlad]
Brady: on the issue of optimizing for page breaks and how it is currently done. A lot of this is currently done manually and the question is if there is an algorithmic solution to this
02:36:30 [Vlad]
mgylling: suggestion to review the TOC and discuss the areas that are covered / not covered yet
02:37:10 [Vlad]
Dave Cramer: Most of it is jsut a sceleton now to outline what needs to be covered
02:39:05 [Vlad]
mgylling: top level questions about locals and cultures, how to transgress both the paper print format and dynamic pagination for adaptive content
02:39:15 [Vlad]
... layout
02:41:03 [Vlad]
mgylling: Adobe joined the IG recently and we hope they can contribute from tools perspective
02:43:02 [Vlad]
Dave Cramer: items to consider include internationalization, cultural differences, types of content (books, magazines, etc.) we need to address, etc.
02:43:23 [Vlad]
02:44:51 [Vlad]
coffee break - 20 min
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03:24:19 [ivan]
scribe: ivan
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03:25:37 [ivan]
mgylling: we have to settle the scope question
03:25:50 [ivan]
… the document should be clear what is in scope and not
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03:26:00 [ivan]
… probably in the status or in the abstract
03:26:26 [ivan]
… we have noted that we are not willing (yet) to rule out some of the locale issues
03:26:58 [ivan]
dauwhe_: some of us had discussions that widow has their counterpart in, eg, chinese
03:33:59 [ivan]
mgylling: how about we list candidates for exclusion
03:34:18 [ivan]
dauwhe_: maybe we start with domains, and then language etc.
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03:38:38 [ivan]
gcapiel: what is the criteria for exclusion?
03:38:54 [ivan]
dauwhe_: which has some narrow rules that are not applicable outside of that domain
03:39:07 [ivan]
… althogh they may illustrate the extreme issues that are more in common
03:39:43 [ivan]
… eg, religious texts may have very complicated requirements, but, eg the footnotes used in a bible illustrate a lot of problems appearing elsewhere
03:40:11 [ivan]
brady_duga: and if we exclude by simplicity, then we may exclude features that are useful elsewhere
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03:43:25 [ivan]
ivan: is fixed layout out of scope of this document?
03:43:49 [ivan]
brady_duga: fixed layout is based on explicit techniques and we may not need special css for it
03:45:58 [ivan]
ivan: if we exclude non-books (newspapers, magazines, etc), we have to make it clear that this is not out of scope for the IG but for the first version of the pagination document
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03:46:40 [ivan]
brady_duga: it is not clear how to define what is a journal or not,
03:47:18 [ivan]
dauwhe_: one of the aspect is that the content spreads opver the document, inclusion of advertising, etc
03:47:33 [ivan]
… industries are organized around these distinctions
03:48:16 [ivan]
jeff: we have to be careful not to use the word 'out of scope', just not to be offputting?
03:48:37 [ivan]
dauwhe_: yes, we should say something like 'our initial concern', something like that
03:48:46 [ivan]
Guest: Jeff Jaffe, W3C
03:52:21 [ivan]
brady_duga: poetry? I am not even sure what the rules are?
03:53:26 [ivan]
koji: CSS has discussed on how much poetry should be covered, left alighn first line, and then other alignments..
03:53:43 [ivan]
… the group does not really know
03:54:11 [ivan]
dauwhe_: there are a number of books I have that can be turned into CSS without a problem
03:54:54 [ivan]
koji: it is fine to include poetry, but we have to know how publishers want to layout poetry
03:55:15 [ivan]
mgylling: some poetry publishers told me that they use fixed layout
03:55:51 [ivan]
… they did not want a new page for a poem, but rather scroll
03:55:54 [ivan]
… this is not doable
03:56:13 [ivan]
… breaking the poem into multiple pages is not acceptable
03:56:28 [ivan]
koji: we need to talk to poetry publishing
03:56:38 [ivan]
… we really need to discuss them
03:56:41 [ivan]
03:57:00 [ivan]
03:59:20 [mgylling]
these are the domains for which we will request additional editors, and which will be covered in later versions of the pagination doc:
04:00:51 [Zakim]
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+ +1.917.447.aaaa
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- +1.917.447.aaaa
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SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended
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Attendees were +1.917.447.aaaa
04:02:13 [ivan]
zakim, dial songshan
04:02:13 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
04:02:14 [Zakim]
SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started
04:02:17 [Zakim]
04:02:46 [mgylling]
04:02:47 [mgylling]
- newspapers
04:02:48 [mgylling]
- magazines
04:02:50 [mgylling]
- childrens picture books
04:02:51 [mgylling]
- comics / manga
04:02:51 [mgylling]
- poetry
04:03:12 [ivan]
mgylling: next area is locales
04:03:20 [ivan]
Guest: Richard Ishida, W3C
04:04:18 [ivan]
dauwhe_: there are ongoing efforts for other languages: indic, korean, chinese
04:04:36 [ivan]
richard: the Chinese IG for HTML5 is working on this
04:05:20 [ivan]
bobby: jlreq completed almost everything, but not applied fully for chinese, so what we have to document is the difference
04:05:37 [ivan]
richard: we would love to find people to do the same for tibetian, thai, hebrew, ...
04:06:02 [ivan]
dauwhe_: my initial insticts were that these should be out of scope
04:06:58 [ivan]
richard: we should have 2 different doc, western layout document, and then there is one that says where css has to cover certain issues. These latter are not necessarily for western only
04:07:17 [ivan]
dauwhe_: that would make sense, it would make it easier to move forward
04:07:19 [ivan]
04:08:34 [mgylling]
Ivan: we need to be clear if we do westernoreq, also need to set up better contacts and relationship with the korean, chinese req groups, be in the loop for documents that are under preparation
04:09:08 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
04:09:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Songshan
04:09:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see r12a, walkley, brady_duga, koji, bobby, nikos, cwdoh_, msiderwicz_, Ralph, manu, _nikos_office, Vlad, karen, tmichel, mgylling, dauwhe_, liam, gcapiel, RRSAgent,
04:09:10 [Zakim]
... Zakim, ivan, astearns, trackbot, plinss
04:09:39 [ivan]
richard: it is a bit difficult with i18n is being a separate group
04:09:51 [ivan]
… the best is to find somebody in both groups in general
04:10:01 [ivan]
… we are also looking at requirements, too
04:10:14 [ivan]
… eg I am looking at ways of having counter styles
04:10:28 [ivan]
… and that would be relevant to this group, too
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04:10:37 [ivan]
mgylling: it sounds like a coordination nightmare
04:11:00 [ivan]
… we need to prepare a document quickly
04:11:17 [ivan]
koji: how about making levels
04:11:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.917.447.aaaa
04:12:02 [dauwhe_]
zakim, aaa is benjaminsko
04:12:02 [Zakim]
sorry, dauwhe_, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
04:12:11 [dauwhe_]
zakim, aaaa is benjaminsko
04:12:11 [Zakim]
+benjaminsko; got it
04:13:23 [ivan]
ivan: what about non-English cultures and usages?
04:13:48 [ivan]
dauwhe_: pragmatically the content should include what we get input for
04:14:16 [ivan]
mgylling: we would like to get the document good enough that it would be reliable for further work
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04:20:08 [ivan]
brady_duga: are the other document (jlreq, etc) include all features for publishing
04:20:13 [ivan]
dauwhe_: yes, it does
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04:20:49 [ivan]
richard: it is more oriented to print like stuffs than electronic ones
04:21:01 [ivan]
… the focus was printing, and not pages
04:21:19 [ivan]
koji: it says its focus is for regular priting
04:21:30 [ivan]
richard: the korean will be different, it may be underspecified
04:22:05 [ivan]
… klreq is probably oriented towards print, but will not have so much information than jlreq
04:22:12 [ivan]
… you will need more information
04:22:22 [ivan]
… we need people in countries to develop that
04:22:32 [ivan]
mgylling: and we have to be realistic here
04:22:50 [ivan]
… the core observation seems to be
04:23:19 [mgylling]
Resolution: Dave's document will be recast as latinReq. It will once published include only layout expectations (no refs to CSS etc).
04:23:20 [mgylling]
There will be an additional separate document which more directly poses requirements on CSS etc, which will draw from jlReq, latinReq, klReq etc.
04:23:59 [ivan]
mgylling: is there anyting in the question list?
04:24:40 [ivan]
dauwhe_: how would the group work on the document itself
04:24:54 [ivan]
… for simplicity is that I filter through me
04:26:12 [ivan]
Topic: Web payments
04:27:01 [ivan]
manu: I am the chair of the RDFa WG and the JSON-LD community group, and I am also co-chair of the web payment CG
04:27:12 [ivan]
… the goal is to integrate payment into the architecture of the web
04:27:32 [ivan]
… ie, the browser should offer a facility where payment would go directly to the user
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04:27:45 [ivan]
… web payment should make it very easy to buy books on line
04:28:02 [ivan]
… the question is whether this is of interest for this group?
04:28:25 [ivan]
dauwhe_: we are certainly interested in the concept
04:28:37 [ivan]
brady_duga: I am happy to bring the knowledge back
04:29:17 [ivan]
Vlad: is it somethign that you envisage something to be that would replace the commercial solutions?
04:29:30 [dauwhe_]
04:29:31 [ivan]
manu: that is certainly what we would like to be
04:29:45 [ivan]
… json-ld as well as RDFa was for interest for us for this reason
04:30:04 [ivan]
… eg, having the license, bills, etc, sent back in machine readable ways
04:30:15 [manu]
04:30:34 [ivan]
… it is not only getting money from A to B, but other things
04:30:59 [manu]
04:31:42 [ivan]
mgylling: do we believe that the current ebook retail work has usage pattern that would challenge your model
04:31:50 [ivan]
… I do not know, but it is a question
04:32:04 [ivan]
dauwhe_: we are of course interested to change the patterns
04:32:30 [ivan]
manu: selling ebooks are of course a big use case for us
04:32:42 [ivan]
… we would like to have more expertise in the group
04:33:00 [ivan]
mgylling: we certainly have to take this back to our companies, because we are geeks here...
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04:42:00 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
04:42:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
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Attendees were Songshan, +1.917.447.aaaa, benjaminsko
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scribe: dauwhe
06:38:11 [dauwhe]
topic: csswg summary
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06:39:03 [ivan]
zakim, this is dpub
06:39:03 [Zakim]
sorry, ivan, I do not see a conference named 'dpub' in progress or scheduled at this time
06:39:12 [Vlad]
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06:39:29 [dauwhe]
mgylling: atomic advice from discussion
06:39:44 [dauwhe]
... if you can't have a unicorn, can you have a pony?
06:39:53 [ivan]
zakim, this is 3782
06:39:53 [Zakim]
sorry, ivan, I do not see a conference named '3782' in progress or scheduled at this time
06:40:02 [dauwhe]
... csswg asked what would be second-best solution for these use cases
06:40:20 [dauwhe]
... this idea of fallback may apply to more than csswg
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06:40:27 [dauwhe]
... they asked for as much detail as possible
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06:40:44 [dauwhe]
... document even edge cases; this will save solution designers lots of guessing
06:41:14 [dauwhe]
... don't have to prioritize everything, but certainly mention most important things of document
06:41:43 [dauwhe]
Richard: do on locale-by-locale basis, with documentation
06:41:57 [dauwhe]
06:42:07 [dauwhe]
r12a: asked for lots of examples
06:42:28 [dauwhe]
brady_duga: they also asked for data.
06:42:56 [dauwhe]
... if we can provide evidence for various requirements, the more the better
06:43:27 [dauwhe]
ivan: although a certain feature is primarily for publishing, it's also useful for tradional browsing.
06:43:34 [dauwhe]
ivan: Bert said that.
06:43:49 [dauwhe]
... the motivation was to convince those less interested in pagination to work on that
06:44:09 [dauwhe]
r12a: Dean was very focued on how market prioritizes features.
06:44:47 [dauwhe]
... Apple agrees ruby feature is great, but won't implement because of lack of evicdence/market
06:45:04 [dauwhe]
mgylling: is it DPUB's place to gather evidence?
06:45:23 [dauwhe]
... asks Brady how they get data/priorities from publishers.
06:45:37 [dauwhe]
brady_duga: publisher-driven based on blackmail
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06:45:54 [dauwhe]
... line breaking is terrible. But people still buy our books.
06:47:08 [dauwhe]
dsinger: it's important to say that your book can't be sold unless feature x is implemented.
06:47:44 [dauwhe]
brady_duga: hanging punctuation as example
06:47:57 [dauwhe]
ivan: reaching out to publishers becomes very important
06:48:11 [dauwhe]
... use IPDF contacts to get data on priorities
06:48:22 [dauwhe]
mgylling: that applies across everything we do
06:48:58 [dauwhe]
... this is something new. A dedicated survey: these are the requirements we've gathered. Prioritize them for us.
06:49:12 [dauwhe]
... that's one way to get there. I don't see how we can easily gather data.
06:49:20 [dauwhe]
ivan: we will see what we can do.
06:49:55 [dauwhe]
mgylling: in terms of moving forward, concrete proposal. As soon as there's a new section in pagination doc, to ask Dave to suggest agenda item for CSS telcom
06:50:16 [dauwhe]
... so they can review. DPUB members can then join CSSWG telcom to discuss particular issue.
06:50:28 [dauwhe]
ivan: Bert is in both groups.
06:50:42 [dauwhe]
mgylling: anything else to encode from previous session? Great!
06:50:54 [dauwhe]
... ten minutes till coffee break!
06:51:27 [dauwhe]
... Vlad, set stage for fonts and typography session. What kinds of problems/issues will we discuss?
06:51:41 [dauwhe]
... important for us to understand what you're working on.
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06:51:56 [dauwhe]
... give us ten minutes to talk about overarching issues.
06:52:18 [gcapiel]
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06:52:22 [dauwhe]
Vlad: it's not what's in my brain, or from my company. It's from the people I interact with, people with actual problems.
06:52:33 [dauwhe]
... that's how I created set of issues
06:52:42 [dauwhe]
... tried to create categorys.
06:52:55 [dauwhe]
... first: font licensing. From discussions with publishers.
06:53:12 [dauwhe]
... are publishing legally allowed to use existing font licensing?
06:53:21 [dauwhe]
... under what conditions can it be used?
06:53:38 [dauwhe]
... we cannot influence the license itself.
06:54:00 [dauwhe]
... if I have a license, is there enough of a toolset to embed fonts and satisfy conditions of license.
06:54:15 [dauwhe]
... license may say that font cannot *easily* be used.
06:54:23 [dauwhe]
... not clear how these tools work.
06:54:35 [dauwhe]
... some people are unaware of tools.
06:54:47 [dauwhe]
... they start with predisposition to assume they can't use fonts.
06:55:15 [dauwhe]
... my own position has been that if you use a font, in any format that cannot easily be pulled out and reused.
06:55:48 [dauwhe]
... if you just have to do something, touch font to reuse, then that takes responsibiliy away from publisher
06:56:01 [dauwhe]
... requires a willful act from the third party, so they are the infringer.
06:56:12 [dauwhe]
... that infringer is in violation of IP laws.
06:56:24 [dauwhe]
... the people who do this are not likely to be our customers.
06:56:43 [dauwhe]
... they are usually isolated acts which don't affect business in general.
06:56:56 [dauwhe]
... this is MT position, but not whole industry.
06:57:06 [dauwhe]
... obfuscating is enough
06:57:43 [dauwhe]
... so publishers doing something like this satisfies licensing requirements
06:57:52 [dauwhe]
Ivan: is this what WOFF was for?
06:58:09 [dauwhe]
Vlad: we didn't want to deal with licensing when creating WOFF format.
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06:58:42 [dauwhe_]
... satisfies many requirements. Transparent mech. for fonts in the web, can't be immediately used by other
06:59:06 [dauwhe_]
... applications. No technical burden getting font out of WOFF format, but that makes infringement willful.
06:59:27 [dauwhe_]
Ivan: In group we've agreed that's enough
06:59:40 [dauwhe_]
... WOFF has metadata on how to aquire font license
06:59:54 [ivan]
06:59:59 [dauwhe_]
... there's a secondary mechanism to put some boundaries on what type of content can be used
07:00:14 [dauwhe_]
... that access control mech. is universal
07:00:41 [dauwhe_]
... if it's normal web architecture, people ask questions
07:01:02 [dauwhe_]
... is situation the same for offline/packaged use?
07:01:08 [dauwhe_]
... most questions coming from publishers.
07:01:27 [dauwhe_]
... they are often at a loss whether they can use fonts without violating license.
07:01:33 [dauwhe_]
... so that's one big bucket.
07:01:41 [dauwhe_]
... this is a problem of educating users.
07:01:53 [dauwhe_]
mgylling: can w3c or OWP help?
07:02:24 [dauwhe_]
Vlad: make some document to refer to. EPUB has font obsfucation, to create strong tie between document and font resource
07:02:35 [dauwhe_]
... web doesn't have that. OK with dynamic content
07:02:53 [dauwhe_]
Ivan: that's not a technical issue, but a usage issue
07:03:13 [dauwhe_]
mgylling: OWP platform does not create a strong tie between font and document for
07:03:32 [dauwhe_]
Ivan: that tie does exist. Do you want inverse?
07:03:59 [dauwhe_]
Vlad: CSS gives mechanism to reference font. Doesn't say you can use that resource for ONLY that doc.
07:04:25 [dauwhe_]
... EPUB uses CSS declaration, but you also have font obsfucation that modifies font header with doc-specific key
07:04:38 [dauwhe_]
... so if you pull that font out of one epub and move to another it won't work.
07:04:53 [dauwhe_]
... that mechanism isn't clear to lots of publishers.
07:05:13 [dauwhe_]
... that removes you from license violation.
07:05:27 [dauwhe_]
... WOFF doesn't modify font.
07:05:38 [dauwhe_]
... is useable everywhere.
07:05:53 [dauwhe_]
... but WOFF gives you metadata saying font was licensed to publisher Y
07:06:08 [dauwhe_]
... at least it gives enough information for anyone to use that font legally.
07:06:24 [dauwhe_]
... also provides enough information to prevent anyone from claiming ignorance.
07:06:42 [dauwhe_]
... tryed to prevent unwilling infringement.
07:07:11 [dauwhe_]
... example: TTF font on server, can easily download, could claim you didn't know that was illegal.
07:07:17 [dauwhe_]
... WOFF is different.
07:07:33 [dauwhe_]
... can't claim you're innocent bystander.
07:07:45 [dauwhe_]
Ivan: that mechanism exists today, the WOFF metadata
07:07:51 [dauwhe_]
... what is missing?
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07:08:22 [dauwhe_]
Vlad: Monotype says that WOFF file is embedded in digital publishing resource, portable offline document, that's good enough for me.
07:08:35 [walkley]
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07:08:38 [dauwhe_]
... but people/publishers don't think that's the case, are afraid of becoming liable.
07:08:50 [dauwhe_]
mgylling: OWP does not need a font obsfucation mechanism.
07:09:02 [dauwhe_]
Vlad: we need more people be aware of issue.
07:09:19 [dauwhe_]
... so we can agree embedding WOFF resource is OK. Is good enough.
07:09:48 [dauwhe_]
gcapiel: is there a machine-readable way to know if license is OK?
07:10:42 [dauwhe_]
brady_duga: WOFF is restricted by origin? I'm confused about--if I figure out how to reference the same file from the original origin
07:10:56 [dauwhe_]
... if I sell that book is that a problem? Origin is the same.
07:11:08 [dauwhe_]
Vlad: issue of origin is non-issue with offline content.
07:11:22 [dauwhe_]
... once file is offline, http doesn't apply.
07:11:36 [dauwhe_]
... don't see how that mech. can work for offline.
07:12:21 [dauwhe_]
Ivan: from IG point of view, this is a non-issue.
07:12:27 [dauwhe_]
Vlad: I agree.
07:12:42 [dauwhe_]
... users need clear guidance.
07:12:55 [dauwhe_]
Ivan: IDPF developed technology.
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07:13:49 [dauwhe_]
... IPDF should make it clear that obsfucation is not necessary for WOFF in EPUB
07:14:02 [dauwhe_]
brady_duga: is this harmful?
07:14:28 [dauwhe_]
Ivan: from IG perspective it's not an issue.
07:14:37 [dauwhe_]
brady_duga: you're right.
07:14:46 [dauwhe_]
mgylling: not seeing new requirements here.
07:15:15 [dauwhe_]
... IDPF says that foundries need to communicate better with customers to clarify offline usage rights.
07:15:21 [dauwhe_]
... are we misunderstanding?
07:15:35 [dauwhe_]
Vlad: Monotype doesn't see an issue here.
07:15:42 [dauwhe_]
... question is asked multiple times.
07:15:48 [dauwhe_]
... not explained anywhere.
07:15:53 [dauwhe_]
... is it our job to explain?
07:16:01 [dauwhe_]
... do we need overveiw to reference?
07:16:11 [dauwhe_]
07:16:28 [dauwhe_]
Ivan: if I look at the IG charter:
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07:16:56 [dauwhe]
... these are W3C technologys important to publishing industry
07:17:02 [brady_duga]
s/blackmail/market pressures/
07:17:17 [dauwhe]
Vlad: when we talk about digital publishing technologies are we online or offline
07:17:30 [dauwhe]
mgylling: scope of this group is the future.
07:17:43 [dauwhe]
... cover needs of digital publishing both online and offline
07:18:18 [dauwhe]
Vlad: confusing part is diff. between EPUB w/ two types of font resource and obsfucation can work, but online only WOFF works
07:18:33 [dauwhe]
... needs to be better explained
07:18:49 [dauwhe]
mgylling: have OWP support obsfucation of non-WOFF fonts.
07:18:54 [dauwhe]
Vlad: if we agree to that, yes.
07:19:08 [dauwhe]
... other choice is to only use WOFF
07:19:15 [dauwhe]
mgylling: what are the stats?
07:19:28 [dauwhe]
Vlad: on web, nearly everything is WOFF.
07:19:47 [dauwhe]
... we serve WOFF to every user agent that supports WOFF.
07:20:39 [dauwhe]
Vlad: next issue; not only about spec, but about what implementions actually do
07:20:52 [dauwhe]
... in EPUB2, many implementations had optional obsfucation
07:21:01 [dauwhe]
... not all RS implement.
07:21:18 [dauwhe]
... that's a problem.
07:21:39 [dauwhe]
mgylling: coffee break.
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08:02:27 [dauwhe]
mgylling: to summarize prev. session, the first of the two "Vladimir Buckets"
08:02:40 [dauwhe]
... no obvious requirements on OWP regarding rights expressions on fonts
08:03:05 [dauwhe]
... generalizing from Vlad's position, WOFF features are enough for both online and offline use
08:03:20 [dauwhe]
... no equivalent metadata expression
08:03:34 [dauwhe]
Vlad: explicitly express restrictions
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08:03:53 [dauwhe]
mgylling: not a W3C issue, more an issue of Foundries and IDPF being more clear on distinctions.
08:05:27 [dauwhe]
Vlad: can we document that WOFF is required technology that is relevant to Digital Publishing (as part of charter)
08:05:36 [ddahl]
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08:06:11 [dauwhe]
RESOLVED: DPUB will add WOFF to list of required technologies for Digital Publishing.
08:06:32 [dauwhe]
Vlad: complaining about typography being not as good as print
08:06:38 [dauwhe]
... different tools and processes.
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08:06:52 [dauwhe]
... they have full control of content that is printed
08:07:05 [Sharad]
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08:07:07 [dauwhe]
... reproduction part of digital pubishing is delegated to unknown user agent
08:07:21 [dauwhe]
... so publishers have little control of final result
08:07:37 [dauwhe]
... don't know what typographic features will be there
08:07:52 [dauwhe]
... there are many checkpoints between digital content and final presentation of that content
08:08:02 [dauwhe]
... until recently CSS Fonts was fluid document
08:08:14 [dauwhe]
... implementation a year ago is now different
08:08:24 [dauwhe]
... is now CR
08:08:40 [dauwhe]
... even though we now have spec, we don't necessarily have implementaions
08:08:52 [dauwhe]
... how can interest group facilitate uptake of spec
08:09:07 [dauwhe]
... do we need stronger set of requirements that it must be supported.
08:09:28 [dauwhe]
Ivan: example?
08:09:36 [dauwhe]
Vlad: scientific publications
08:09:41 [dauwhe]
... not talking about math
08:09:54 [dauwhe]
... have text flowing around objects with formulas, etc.
08:10:16 [dauwhe]
... or don't have control over kerning or vertical positioning
08:10:25 [dauwhe]
... combine chinese and english in one sentence
08:10:41 [dauwhe]
Ivan: the kind of question I was asking on half-space around punctuation
08:10:54 [dauwhe]
... each feature in isolation has a small impact
08:11:10 [dauwhe]
... but the aggregate distinguishes good typography from bad
08:11:17 [marilyn]
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08:11:42 [dauwhe]
koji: but these things aren't about fonts
08:11:52 [dauwhe]
Ivan: typography has lots of parts
08:11:57 [dauwhe]
08:12:29 [dauwhe]
Vlad: year ago, CSS3 font features... demo from then doesn't work now
08:12:58 [dauwhe]
astearns: question about things aren't up to snuff on web platform. One of them was kerning. Letter positoin in general?
08:13:05 [dauwhe]
... or adding kerning table to document
08:13:16 [dauwhe]
Vlad: not kerning table, talking about info in font
08:13:25 [dauwhe]
astearns: so it's the font data itself.
08:13:44 [dauwhe]
Vlad: sometimes that information is not presented in the font. Sometimes it is in font but not used by reading system.
08:13:53 [dauwhe]
... people see end result, but don't see where issue is.
08:14:04 [dauwhe]
08:14:13 [dauwhe]
... people just see that it's wrong
08:14:29 [dauwhe]
... important small things.
08:14:56 [dauwhe]
astearns: requireing browsers to use kern data in the font is something that would go in CSS3 text
08:15:08 [dauwhe]
... if browsers are not doing enough, that's what we need to lock down in CSS spec.
08:15:30 [dauwhe]
Vlad: I was talking about capturing high-level requirements to then translate into CSS
08:15:40 [dauwhe]
koji: Are you talking feature stablilty?
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08:16:09 [dauwhe]
Vlad: one issue is lack of support for already-specified features
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08:16:30 [dauwhe]
Ivan: try to collect both pagination features and typographic features
08:16:56 [dauwhe]
... it's more work
08:17:01 [dauwhe]
Vlad: I'm the messenger
08:17:14 [dauwhe]
... I collect these from companies like Dave's
08:17:26 [dauwhe]
... these are people who struggle to control fine details of presentation
08:17:47 [dauwhe]
mgylling: parts is implemenation problem. Are there also specification issues?
08:17:55 [dauwhe]
astearns: yes, there are spec issues.
08:18:36 [dauwhe]
... control over glyph position in line box is insufficiently specified for publisher requirements.
08:18:45 [dauwhe]
... line grids
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08:19:50 [dauwhe]
dauwhe: control over justification parameters
08:19:58 [dauwhe]
Ivan: some stuff may be pushed to CSS 4
08:20:13 [dauwhe]
astearns: CSS decided to punt on justification ranges, it's future work.
08:20:38 [dauwhe]
r12a: there are specific things we need to address, but there are things in css already that are not being implemented.
08:20:46 [dauwhe]
... so we need to talk to implementers.
08:20:59 [dauwhe]
Ivan: yes. we need test suite to help developers
08:21:06 [dauwhe]
08:21:23 [dauwhe]
Vlad: by zeroing down on specific issues we may lose bigger picture
08:21:39 [dauwhe]
... we may not be ready to drill down at individual spec level
08:21:56 [dauwhe]
... we need higher level conversation first, not dive directly to glyph positioning
08:22:17 [dauwhe]
... CSS3 fonts defines support for font features.
08:22:31 [dauwhe]
... to support font features you need implementations supporting that part of spec
08:22:43 [walkley]
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08:22:43 [dauwhe]
... and you need to enable authors to discover the same features.
08:22:59 [dauwhe]
... a whole another issue.
08:23:07 [dauwhe]
... tools need to expose these features
08:25:01 [dauwhe]
Vlad: there's a set of tools developed by Monotype; tool will tell you what font features are available
08:25:19 [dauwhe]
... if characters are CT, some fonts will have a swash for these, some won't.
08:25:26 [dauwhe]
... discovery tools are needed.
08:25:54 [dauwhe]
mgylling: not obvious yes or no for us to develop requirements for authoring tools
08:26:00 [dauwhe]
... this opens a can of worms.
08:26:10 [dauwhe]
Ivan: let's try to keep to what we agreed to do
08:26:20 [dauwhe]
... authoring tool world becomes a nightmare
08:26:45 [dauwhe]
dsinger: will this put into the CSS the fact that I want "CT" replaced with ligature
08:27:06 [dauwhe]
... finding what fonts do is not a problem for this group
08:28:07 [dauwhe]
astearns: CSS font spec allows us to turn on substitution for particular element,
08:28:14 [dauwhe]
... this span with those two characters.
08:28:21 [dauwhe]
... can do character by character
08:28:44 [dauwhe]
... if you get to fallback font that doesn't support the feature, that turning on of feature does nothing.
08:28:58 [dauwhe]
r12a: that's an example of what Vlad was talking about.
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08:29:24 [dauwhe]
Vlad: the bigger issue is that we want to reduce the difference between creation and rendering.
08:29:30 [dauwhe]
... sometimes implementation problem
08:29:36 [dauwhe]
... sometimes resource get subsituted.
08:29:51 [dauwhe]
... sometimes can't reuse print process for digital
08:29:57 [dauwhe]
... trying to bring bigger scope
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08:30:08 [dauwhe]
mgylling: to enable faithful representation down the line
08:30:22 [dauwhe]
... we need to break down to concrete atomic problems
08:30:32 [dauwhe]
Vlad: one bucket is discovery of font features
08:30:36 [dauwhe]
... don't know if in scope
08:30:52 [dauwhe]
mgylling: authoring tool feature requirements is out of scope
08:31:24 [dauwhe]
astearns: there are stages involved.
08:31:33 [dauwhe]
... gathering requirements
08:31:38 [dauwhe]
... then turn to features
08:31:50 [dauwhe]
... then see if those features can be exposed to tools
08:32:04 [dauwhe]
mgylling: how to translate easy to discover font features
08:32:23 [dauwhe]
astearns: we have a step where we consider tooling 'cause one chair writes tools
08:32:34 [dauwhe]
... the font feature that exposes OT features is not tool-friendly
08:32:40 [dauwhe]
... but even less author friendly
08:32:51 [dauwhe]
... tools will expose eventually, and authors will use tools
08:33:02 [dauwhe]
... because feature is too obstruse for normal authors
08:33:25 [dauwhe]
mgylling: to translate to requirement for OWP
08:33:35 [dauwhe]
... fonts have mechanism where fonts declare their available features
08:33:45 [dauwhe]
... and make it easy for tool providers
08:33:57 [dauwhe]
koji: for CSS fonts case
08:34:08 [dauwhe]
... matter of timing
08:34:13 [dauwhe]
... css fonts is WD
08:34:19 [dauwhe]
... not implemented in browser
08:34:27 [dauwhe]
... spec was unstable, unsupported
08:34:46 [dauwhe]
... once CR PR then more likely browser suppported and then tool supported
08:35:05 [dauwhe]
... using features after PR solves most issues
08:35:25 [dauwhe]
... help specs move faster to rec track
08:35:38 [dauwhe]
astearns: that timing issue will factor in to the toolability of this particular feature
08:35:48 [dauwhe]
... web platform doesn't have restrospection yet
08:36:27 [dauwhe]
mgylling: what other features are needed?
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08:36:34 [dauwhe]
... what have you heard, VLad?
08:36:45 [astearns]
s/restrospection/introspection into features available for a particular font/
08:36:52 [dauwhe]
gcapiel: let's check in with MathJax folks
08:37:08 [dauwhe]
Vlad: missing technology on font side for math support
08:37:27 [dauwhe]
... ISO has published a proposal for math layout technology
08:38:28 [ivan]
Guest: Richard (r12a) Ishida, W3C
08:38:57 [r12a]
scribenick: r12a
08:39:03 [r12a]
dave: we want concrete imperatives, atomic?
08:40:16 [gcapiel]
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08:40:18 [astearns]
dave mentions justification and line breaking controls, composing fractions
08:40:27 [r12a]
... hanging punctuation, fractions (font typography related) - in the old days we made a fraction font, it was so important
08:40:43 [r12a]
... kerning pair editing
08:41:09 [r12a]
... sometimes we put spans around two letters with special spacing
08:42:00 [r12a]
... typically manually editng the html - eg. with drop caps, and maybe 4-5 different types of spacing
08:42:25 [r12a]
ivan: sounds frightening
08:42:43 [r12a]
dave: but thats what needs to be done
08:43:03 [r12a]
koji: format like epub, most publishers allow user to change font...
08:43:37 [r12a]
vlad: i don't dave is advocating to do the way previously done - its just an example of how much work goes into miniscule adjustments
08:43:40 [koji]
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08:43:58 [r12a]
koji: is the goal of this document to describe what was done in printing or what we want
08:44:09 [r12a]
dave: describe best practices
08:44:25 [r12a]
astearns: good sense to describe current practise whether or not
08:44:59 [r12a]
vlad: don't want digital publishing to be a poor relative of printing
08:45:14 [r12a]
dave: especially with the exquisite fonts that are now produced
08:45:57 [r12a]
brady: careful work for drop caps with hand adjustment fails when the user changes font
08:46:48 [r12a]
koji: group needs a list of requirements for other groups
08:47:04 [r12a]
... in the middle we have another list of what we want in digital publishing
08:47:36 [r12a]
dave: requirement that drop caps don't clash should be solved
08:48:26 [r12a]
... it doesn't work well in browsers now, but it should
08:48:37 [r12a]
markus: where do we document these?
08:48:59 [r12a]
ivan: who will do the work? may be too much to ask dave to write it
08:49:10 [r12a]
... could someone else help create the content
08:50:02 [r12a]
markus: kerning etc do not need the tutorial stuff around them, so we may be able to put these requirements on the wiki directly
08:50:35 [r12a]
vlad: we need to collect these requirements from various publishers - they will have slightly different requirements
08:50:52 [r12a]
markus: vlad would you be willing to collect these things on the wiki
08:51:01 [r12a]
vlad: i'm not sure I can do this
08:51:54 [r12a]
... i hear of the problems, but i don't work with them
08:52:44 [r12a]
dave: we need to snag someone from the community who are trying to solve these problems in the comp houses
08:53:26 [r12a]
... we don't have many such w3c members
08:53:32 [r12a]
ivan: we're working on that
08:54:20 [r12a]
koji: i'm working on a spreadsheet in japan and asking publishers to fill in issues - 40% author issues, 30% implementation, 10% css
08:54:42 [r12a]
vlad: any other publishers?
08:54:53 [r12a]
08:55:18 [r12a]
vlad: even educational book publishers
08:56:08 [r12a]
markus: there are two things, we all know we need experts, but someone also needs to coordinate the work
08:56:23 [r12a]
... would you be willing to collect and describe (rather than be the expert)
08:56:29 [r12a]
vlad: i'll try
08:56:46 [r12a]
markus: so you'll be the hub and get things moving
08:57:03 [r12a]
ivan: on the long term i think this may become a separate document
08:57:16 [r12a]
markus: eventually nothing will remain a wiki page
08:58:04 [r12a]
r12a: don't forget jlreq
08:58:40 [r12a]
dave: i'm concerned that it might be hard to disentangle things - typography affects page layout
08:59:55 [r12a]
Agreed: Vlad agrees to be coordinator to collect and marshall these requirements - try to bring in people from Aptara and Jouve to supply expertise
09:00:33 [r12a]
vlad: can we get input from people outside the w3c
09:00:37 [r12a]
answer yes
09:01:02 [r12a]
vlad: success depends on input - we shouldn't limit to members
09:01:49 [r12a]
walkley: i chair Uk digital publishing association so i can get them involved
09:02:00 [r12a]
ivan mentions others
09:04:14 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
09:04:14 [Zakim]
sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is
09:04:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see koji, gcapiel, ddahl, walkley, liam, Sharad, frank, taocai, bobby, dsinger, dauwhe, Vlad, Zakim, ivan, r12a, kawabata2, brady_duga, mgylling, tmichel__, benjaminsko,
09:04:16 [Zakim]
... manu, _nikos_office, RRSAgent, astearns, trackbot, plinss
09:04:20 [r12a]
ADJOURNED for today
09:04:23 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:04:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
09:04:37 [r12a]
meet for restaurant at 6pm in lobby
09:04:55 [ivan]
rrsagent, bye
09:04:55 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items