<trackbot> Date: 06 November 2013

<Guus> we need a scribe!!

<yvesr> sorry, scribed last week :)

<scribe> scribe: sandro

<Guus> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 30 Oct telecon:

<scribe> ACTION: guus to write up scribe schedule for remaining meetings [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-321 - Write up scribe schedule for remaining meetings [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-13].

<AZ> +1 accept minutes

<Arnaud> sorry I'm late

<Guus> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 30 Oct telecon:

RESOLUTION: to accept the minutes of the 30 Oct telecon

guus: closing 4 action items on which ericP claimed vistory

<pfps> yes, I contacted Michael

guus: Hopefully everyone saw the announcements for RDF 1.1 CR and JSON-LD PR. Congrats and thanks to everyone.

<gavinc> Thanks sandro for talking care of the publishing issues!

*nod* your welcome...

guus: I'll be announcing to various listsa.

<scribe> ACTION: guus to draft announcement emails for other lists [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-322 - Draft announcement emails for other lists [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-13].

sandro: might start with my w3.org homepage news, but more emphasis on changes for rdf folks

guus: I already requested pub of rdf-json for tomorrow.

Antoinne's draft note on Dataset Semantics

AZ: Goal is to provide a formal account of the various formal semantics that people have discussed in this group
... current state -- there are comments from Peter that require changes which I still have to do, but it would be good if other people look at the document.
... it would also be good to have advice on how to structure the document.

<pfps> I think that the document could be published as a first version as is - first versions are often missing bits, etc.

PatH: Sorry for not commenting on this earlier.
... I have some wording niggles, which I'll send in.
... Is it thought desirable to publish such a note?
... At one point we had consensus that the smart thing to do was to let the world decide what the semantics are, to see what emerges.
... If patterns emerge, they could be provided with semantics
... What bothers me a little is that idea that this document will be understood as a kind of limit or constraint on datasets, which I think might not be a good thing to do.
... It's a problem with something that perports to survey the possibilities

guus: We resolved as a group that we'd publish some alternative ideas, as a NOTE.
... The intent, in discussions, was that we'd publish different alternative semantics.

<pfps> +1 to make the situation explicit in the document abstract and introduction

<PatH> +1 sandro

sandro: Maybe we can make sure the title, intro, abstract make clear this is a starting point for the discussion, not an ending point.

guus: Sandro, what about the conceptual material you wrote?

sandro: Sorry, I haven't read it yet, so it's hard to tell

az: In the beginning of what I wrote, I'm saying that in addition to any mathematical definition, it is also possible to interpret named graphs in reference to the architecture of the Web. That is the name of the graph has to be understood to be what you get when you dereference the URI. But I didn't get very far in this direciton.

guus: I think that would be useful, but it doesn't need to block publication.
... We do need two WG reviewers.

<PatH> I will review it in detail

<PatH> It will take me a week or so.

guus: review by next Wednesday?

<PatH> OK by next week

<PatH> sure

<scribe> ACTION: PatH to review AZ's dataset semantics document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-323 - Review az's dataset semantics document [on Patrick Hayes - due 2013-11-13].

<scribe> ACTION: Guus to review AZ's dataset semantics document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-324 - Review az's dataset semantics document [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-11-13].

gavin: I'll try to do it as well.

guus: I'll try to see if some of sandro's text would fit in as well.
... I suggest you wait for this first review, and see what parts you take on board. Plan to publish in 2 weeks (20 Nov)
... then we'll republish when we go to REC

<PatH> can we take the fox and the cabbage over the river?

:-)

sandro: actually, the plan to go to REC is 20140204 (since we need to wait for patent exlusion period)

guus: The director was satisfied with how we handled the transition, by the way.
... As long as we get in PR decision this calendar year, we should be okay. Either a formal short extension, or not.

Semantics Tests

guus: Any responses, Peter?

pfps: No.
... I don't understand the process.
... I have a list of people to send the message to.

gkellogg?

pfps: We need help with the EARL stuff
... Michael Schneider said he'd run the tests.
... a test harness would be great

gkellogg: I've offered to help. We have a sample report there.
... in the Implementation Report

sandro: It's linked from the spec as "IMplementation Report"

<AndyS> e.g. http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Test_Suite#Turtle_Tests

<gavinc> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/index.html

http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-mt/

<gavinc> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html

scroll down to Implementation report:

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html

pfps: instructions, instructions, instructions

gkellogg: The report is automatically generated based on the collected results -- of which we don't have any yet.
... It uses the manifest to create this document.
... We can add more instruction if you want

pfps: I'll take a look

gkellogg: YOu can change the markdown, or just mail it to me.

pfps: Is there a model earl file?

gkellogg: Look in the nquads or trig directories.

<gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10-Schema/

gkellogg: we might be having the HTTPS problem here, breaking respec

pfps: I'll give it a try.

gkellogg: I don't know what it would actually take to run a semantics test.

<gavinc> AC messaged as well

sandro: Basically at this point, signal-boost and signal-refine the announcements made yesterday on w3.org

pfps: I have a list of folks to email
... guus will produce a general email, and I'll forward that on with a little intro

+1

pfps: ... tailored to semantics implementators.
... OWL Reasoners will have a lot of trouble with this, since it's mostly not OWL DL.
... Michael Schneider at least should be able to run these
... We should decide about AZ's tests. They're great, but perverse.

sandro: How about including them as "Proposed" tests and see how folks do on them.

pfps: Sounds good, I'll mention that in the documentation.
... Hopefully the setup will work if someone submits an extra test.
... Okay, we'll try this.

guus: I'd like to include in the CFI one paragraph about how to submit tests.

sandro: in the stuff I wrote, I said the Impl. Rep. has the instructions.

guus: I leave that up to Gregg.

gkellogg: This info has been adequate for folks so far.
... I just don't know if there's something about semantics that needs to be different

sandro: peter said he's review the instructions

peter: I'll do that today

guus: so I can get things out by Friday
... Thanks!

gkellogg: Often the impl reps need some back and forth.

<ericP> http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/ has LICENSE README TESTS.{tar.gz,zip} manifest.ttl

subtopic: Turtle Tests

ericP: I suggest copying this structure
... There are some controvercial bits, like canonical bnodes and triple ordering
... Also a commenter asked us to annotate any tests that are outside the basic multilingual plane (> FFFD) but I don't think you'll have any of those.

<ericP> Turtle CR comments

<Zakim> ericP, you wanted to discuss outstanding disputes over Turtle tests and how the apply to the other tests

gkellogg: test issues. N-Quads calls for running two manifests. Maybe we should copy n-triples tests into n-quads.

gavinc: Yes, please copy them.

gkellogg: Okay, will do.

gavinc: Do we have much coverage for N-Triples things that have changed?

gkellogg: I don't know. I tried to be thorough, but I may have missed areas.
... I think we test the various escape sequences. THere may be whitespace variations we dont have coverage on.

ericP: I did a coverage report on Turtle which might be helpful for Trig.

<AndyS> Sorry - sound probs

gavinc: AndyS, how did you feel about the coverage?

<AndyS> I don't know - I just run the tests - haven't looked in a long time :-)

markus: In your review of Concepts, you asked if we should update our pointing to RDF Test Cases.

guus: Yeah, hard question. Maybe put it in as a point to fix?

gkellogg: Didn't the RDF Test Cases turn into the rdf11-mt tests?

guus: True.

markus: We don't have an index for the test suites.

guus: Let's make one, and then point to it.

Things like http://www.w3.org/2013/rdf-mt-tests/

gkellogg: EARL URLs issue...
... We change the URLs when we move the test suite

gavinc: Can we just use @base at the top of the manfiest?

<AndyS> Does not work - need to fetch the test by GET.

ericP: In the turtle tests, we felt guilty moving it, but no one complained.

gkellogg: It'd be good to people a heads up.

<gavinc> yay sed!

<gavinc> sed can save us ;)

sandro: Don't want to throw away results

markus: proxy?

<gavinc> Proxying HTTPS to HTTP is a no no ;)

sandro: technical problems with that

eric: n-triples & turtle overlap ? trig and turtle overlap?

<AndyS> Too late to get too clever.

gavinc: We could make the Trig test suite include the turtle tests and n-triples tests.

<AndyS> We need to give people time to execute the tests and report.

gkellogg: We might have done that for Turtle.

guus: Make sure it's done by the end of the week, if it's being done.

<scribe> ACTION: gkellogg to make sure sublanguage test suites include other language tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-325 - Make sure sublanguage test suites include other language tests [on Gregg Kellogg - due 2013-11-13].

Turtle CR Comments

<ericP> Turtle CR

<AndyS> GT

<AndyS> GTG - bye

ericP: (summarizes ...)

guus: I made a page for CR comments, and moved our deferred comments there.

gavinc: Comment on N-Triples.... is that a new comment on CR?

eric: Yes?

gavinc: (Please dont do UTF8)

<Guus> CR comments page for the 5 RDF 1.1 docs: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/CR_comments_Concepts_Semantics_TriG_N-Triples_N-Quads

<Arnaud> I need to drop off

<gavinc> tah dah http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/CR_Comments

RDFS

guus: The plan is to make RDF Schema be an Edited Recommendation, so no technical content changes.
... yesterday I did a respec version
... not sure about the diff

<gavinc> Best bet that I've tried in the past was produce HTML from both, and then use pandoc to produce Markdown from both, and then compare those ;)

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-schema/index.html

eric: Do we want Turtle to go to PR early?

guus: No.
... Should we add the new datatypes in the RDF namespace?
... rdf:langString and rdf:HTML

sandro: I think that's fine since it's just including changes made elsewhere.

ted: I have a user who wants language tag and datatype

sandro: not allowed to do that in xml schema

guus: Should we make plainLiteral as being obsolete?
... editors?

sandro: No, it can't be obsolete because it's used by OWL 2
... and can't even be 'deprecated' if other stuff we don't think people should use can't be deprecated.

ADJOURN

<Guus> trackbot, end meeting

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/topic:/subtopic:/
Succeeded: s/who/how/
Found Scribe: sandro
Inferring ScribeNick: sandro
Default Present: pfps, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, GavinC, AZ, David_Wood, Sandro, gkellogg, markus, Arnaud, PatH, EricP, zwu2, Souri, TallTed
Present: pfps Guus AndyS yvesr GavinC AZ David_Wood Sandro gkellogg markus Arnaud PatH EricP zwu2 Souri TallTed
Found Date: 06 Nov 2013
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2013/11/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html
People with action items: gkellogg guus path