14:56:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:56:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc
14:56:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:56:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:56:33 <Gus> trackbot, start meeting
14:56:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:56:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:34 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:56:34 <trackbot> Date: 30 October 2013
14:56:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:56:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:56:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:39 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:56:39 <trackbot> Date: 30 October 2013
14:56:49 <Gus> chair: Guus
14:57:33 <davidwood> davidwood has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:43 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:01 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:03 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
14:58:13 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:58:13 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:58:14 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:58:19 <Zakim> +pfps
14:59:21 <Zakim> +??P5
14:59:25 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P5
14:59:25 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
15:00:17 <Zakim> +PatH
15:00:32 <Zakim> +Arnaud
15:00:59 <markus> markus has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:14 <Zakim> +??P8
15:01:22 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P8 is me
15:01:22 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:01:35 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:01:37 <Zakim> +GavinC
15:02:21 <Gus> zaki, pick a scribe
15:02:36 <Zakim> +EricP
15:02:43 <Gus> zakim, pick a scribe
15:02:43 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose yvesr
15:03:06 <yvesr> yep
15:03:12 <Zakim> +David_Wood
15:03:19 <yvesr> scribe: yvesr
15:03:26 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:03:26 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:03:55 <Zakim> +??P15
15:03:57 <markus> zakim, ??P15 is me
15:03:57 <Zakim> +markus; got it
15:04:05 <PatH> Congrats to Peter
15:04:09 <yvesr> congrats :)
15:04:35 <yvesr> Gus: pfps got an award at ISWC last week in Sydney
15:04:35 <pfps> minutes look good
15:04:43 <yvesr> RESOLVED: accept minutes from last week
15:05:01 <yvesr> topic: Reviewing action items
15:05:15 <gavinc> Claiming victory with ericP on ACTION-293
15:05:25 <gavinc> ACTION-293?
15:05:25 <trackbot> ACTION-293 -- Gavin Carothers to Update turtle ed to match published turtle cr document -- due 2013-09-18 -- OPEN
15:05:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/293
15:06:06 <pfps> gavin: can you put something somewhere showing success for action-293
15:06:08 <yvesr> Gus: there's a telecon next week, back to normal time schedule
15:06:31 <yvesr> Gus: before the 7th of January, we have 7 teleconferences left
15:06:53 <PatH> :-/
15:06:58 <yvesr> Gus: tomorrow morning we have the transition call for JSON-LD
15:07:24 <yvesr> Gus: I just want to check the status of the documents
15:07:45 <yvesr> markus: I didn't create the static version yet, but I can do that after the meeting
15:07:59 <yvesr> sandro: let's wait until after the meeting in case they are changes coming from that meeting
15:08:05 <davidwood> q+
15:08:09 <yvesr> Gus: the same holds for pfps and PatH, for concepts
15:08:37 <yvesr> Gus: if we can do that tomororw, then we can send them on Friday to the webmaster
15:08:43 <pfps> what are the official steps to get a static version??
15:08:52 <PatH> pfps and PatH are doing Semantics
15:09:16 <yvesr> Gus: We can stop talking about ISSUE-155
15:09:33 <davidwood> q-
15:10:07 <pfps> OK by me
15:10:37 <PatH> OK
15:10:50 <yvesr> Gus: let's move on
15:10:52 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:10:59 <yvesr> topic: Test-suites
15:11:10 <yvesr> Gus: where are we wrt test suites and implementations
15:11:22 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:11:26 <Zakim> +??P12
15:11:29 <yvesr> pfps: The semantics test suite have been updated
15:11:33 <Zakim> -David_Wood
15:11:46 <yvesr> pfps: We need a volunteer for checking RDF entailment tests
15:11:48 <sandro> q+
15:11:49 <Souri> zakim,??P12 is me
15:11:49 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
15:12:01 <Gus> ack sandro
15:12:05 <Zakim> +David_Wood
15:12:07 <yvesr> sandro: I don't think I volunteered to do that
15:12:18 <yvesr> pfps: It was on the list of things to be done
15:12:41 <Zakim> + +33.0.81.16.5aaaa
15:12:42 <yvesr> sandro: Michael Schneider mentioned he had a bunch of tests from years ago, which would be good RDF semantics tests
15:12:49 <AZ> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:12:49 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:13:01 <yvesr> sandro: he had a reasoner which could be considered as an implementation
15:13:09 <yvesr> pfps: I'll take an action to contact him
15:13:21 <yvesr> ACTION: pfps to contact Michael about RDF semantics tests
15:13:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-315 - Contact michael about rdf semantics tests [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2013-11-06].
15:13:40 <yvesr> Gus: what potential implementation for semantics do we have?
15:13:47 <yvesr> pfps: really we want ones that already exist
15:13:53 <yvesr> ... there must be a document on that somewhere
15:14:01 <yvesr> sandro: you mean real world examples?
15:14:16 <yvesr> pfps: give sparql 1.1 has an entailement regime, they must have entailment checkers as well
15:14:22 <yvesr> s/give/given
15:14:44 <yvesr> pfps: There must be an implementation report for SPARQL 1.1
15:14:51 <yvesr> ... I think that's the way to go
15:14:53 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/implementations/#sparql11-entailment
15:14:59 <yvesr> sandro: Here is the implementation report
15:15:25 <yvesr> sandro: Lots of green, lots of red
15:15:34 <yvesr> sandro: I don't know which entailment regime those are
15:16:56 <yvesr> pfps: I'll check what the situation is wrt implementation
15:17:39 <yvesr> PatH: there is something in there, which checks that if you query a dataset you do match things in the default graph
15:17:47 <yvesr> ... which might be useful to have
15:17:58 <yvesr> Gus: The timeline for this is November
15:18:19 <yvesr> pfps: The amount of effort to run these tests should be minimal
15:18:56 <yvesr> Gus: question for gavinc wrt TriG test suites
15:19:02 <yvesr> gavinc: The suites are in good shape
15:19:33 <yvesr> ... We have 3/4 implementations already
15:19:57 <yvesr> gkellogg: I started one for n-triples
15:20:08 <yvesr> gkellogg: I could do the same for n-quads and TriG
15:20:16 <yvesr> Gus: That's fine
15:20:33 <yvesr> Gus: Most of the test suite work we'll need to do will be on semantics
15:20:38 <yvesr> topic: Turtle
15:20:56 <yvesr> Gus: the implementation report seems to be in good shape
15:21:01 <yvesr> ... the main issue is about comments
15:21:18 <yvesr> Gus: How are we on the issues?
15:21:23 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:21:43 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Issues Turtle CR comments
15:21:47 <yvesr> ericP: Going down the list
15:22:37 <yvesr> ... proposed means that there is a proposed response that hasn't been sent out yet
15:22:44 <yvesr> ... I want WG approval before sending them out
15:23:32 <ericP> PROPOSED: addres TCR1 and 2 with http://www.w3.org/mid/20131002122510.GC1493@w3.org
15:23:49 <pfps> +1
15:23:56 <gavinc> +1
15:24:00 <gkellogg> +1
15:24:00 <Gus> +1
15:24:02 <yvesr> +1
15:24:02 <ivan> +1
15:24:04 <ericP> ＋１
15:24:19 <markus> +1
15:24:19 <Arnaud> +1
15:24:25 <ericP> RESOLVED: addres TCR1 and 2 with http://www.w3.org/mid/20131002122510.GC1493@w3.org
15:24:26 <AZ> +1
15:24:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:24:35 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
15:24:35 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:24:49 <pfps> +1
15:24:52 <ericP> PROPOSED: addres TCR3 with http://www.w3.org/mid/20131002124541.GD1493@w3.org
15:24:54 <pfps> +1
15:24:57 <Souri> +1
15:25:30 <gavinc> +1
15:25:39 <Arnaud> +1
15:25:40 <gavinc> P_NAME ;)
15:25:47 <gkellogg> +1
15:25:48 <markus> +1
15:25:49 <yvesr> +1
15:25:49 <AZ> +1
15:25:50 <ericP> +1
15:25:55 <ericP> RESOLVED: addres TCR3 with http://www.w3.org/mid/20131002124541.GD1493@w3.org
15:26:02 <PatH> +1 sorry
15:26:49 <yvesr> ericP: 7 needs a bit of discussion - what should the constructor in the parsing rule say about parsing strings?
15:27:00 <yvesr> ... typing it with xsd:string or leaving it plain
15:27:09 <yvesr> PatH: There's no such thing as a plain literal?
15:27:15 <davidwood> Right - it should make an xsd:string
15:27:21 <davidwood> +1
15:27:22 <yvesr> ericP: OK, so we can construct it as an xsd:string
15:27:41 <yvesr> gavinc: The first draft of Turtle was out before we made that decision - this is left over
15:28:23 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to see that parsing rules in Turtle map plain literal syntax to literal constructor of type xsd:string
15:28:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-316 - See that parsing rules in turtle map plain literal syntax to literal constructor of type xsd:string [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-11-06].
15:28:27 <yvesr> ericP: It is possible the document is already correct - the comment might have been on an earlier version
15:28:27 <gavinc> The literal has a lexical form of the first rule argument, String, and either a language tag of LANGTAG or a datatype IRI of iri, depending on which rule matched the input. if neither a language tag nor a datatype IRI is provided, the literal has a datatype of xsd:string.
15:28:44 <AndyS> And NT, NQ, TriG? RDF/XML?
15:29:13 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to respond to TCR8
15:29:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-317 - Respond to tcr8 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-11-06].
15:29:36 <AndyS> (not clear that in the parsing rules is the best place - rather in the formation of the abstract data model - then catches every syntax)
15:29:46 <yvesr> ericP: 9 needs to be fixed in respec
15:30:33 <yvesr> ericP: 10, we need to refer to the current RDF-CONCEPTS - respec should take care of that
15:30:40 <yvesr> gavinc: I'll do that
15:30:54 <yvesr> ericP: 12 was an objection to SPARQL PREFIX and BASE
15:31:14 <yvesr> ericP: 13 was a comment was on a few things, including normalising bnodes for diff
15:31:32 <yvesr> ericP: Should we have a quick resolution to not come up with a normalised form?
15:32:15 <yvesr> gavinc: It means that we can just compare strings to check the tests
15:32:20 <PatH> +NO
15:32:24 <ericP> PROPOSED: WG will not create a normalized NTriples bnode form for RDF test reference graphs
15:32:30 <ivan> +1
15:32:33 <Arnaud> +1
15:32:34 <gkellogg> +1
15:32:35 <pfps> +1
15:32:36 <ericP> +1
15:32:37 <PatH> +1
15:32:37 <yvesr> +1
15:32:38 <gavinc> +1
15:32:39 <Gus> +1
15:32:43 <AZ> +1
15:32:43 <AndyS> +1
15:32:43 <markus> +1
15:32:51 <ericP> RESOLVED: WG will not create a normalized NTriples bnode form for RDF test reference graphs
15:33:06 <gavinc> same thing ;)
15:33:41 <yvesr> ericP: the next three are resolved
15:34:00 <yvesr> ericP: 19 and 20 are about missing links to things
15:34:08 <yvesr> ... we'll need to deal with them before next transition
15:34:44 <yvesr> ericP: 23 is about IRI production
15:34:55 <yvesr> ... we didn't copy the whole production from RFC3987
15:35:00 <yvesr> gavinc: It was intentional
15:35:31 <ericP> PROPOSED: WG will not copy the RFC3987 production for IRIs into Turtle
15:35:37 <gkellogg> +1
15:35:37 <ivan> +1
15:35:37 <ericP> +1
15:35:40 <PatH> +1
15:35:41 <pfps> +1
15:35:44 <davidwood> +1
15:35:44 <Souri> +1
15:35:45 <markus> +1
15:35:46 <AndyS> +1
15:35:48 <AZ> +1
15:35:50 <gavinc> +1
15:35:51 <yvesr> +1
15:35:57 <ericP> RESOLVED: WG will not copy the RFC3987 production for IRIs into Turtle
15:37:22 <gavinc> turtle-bnf.html
15:38:03 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to edit turtle-bnf.html to add quoted characters and respond with an affirmative on TCR34
15:38:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-318 - Edit turtle-bnf.html to add quoted characters and respond with an affirmative on tcr34 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-11-06].
15:38:51 <yvesr> ericP: One of the example wasn't valid Turtle - edited and committed a fix for that
15:40:27 <gavinc> +1 to not doing versions
15:40:34 <yvesr> ericP: about 38, I think I might be able to convince the commenter it's OK
15:41:02 <yvesr> ericP: about 38, adding a media type would mean another CR
15:41:35 <yvesr> sandro: i understood his comment as not being a change to the standard
15:41:53 <yvesr> s/38/39
15:42:15 <yvesr> sandro: How do I mediate between old Turtle and new Turtle?
15:42:28 <yvesr> gavinc: there are quite a few grammars around that aren't compatible with each other
15:42:38 <yvesr> gavinc: so there's no such thing as 'old turtle'
15:43:18 <yvesr> s/39/33
15:43:47 <yvesr> ericP: In our communication with the outside world, we need a way to name this new standard
15:43:52 <yvesr> Gus: Makes sense to call it 1.1
15:44:38 <yvesr> gavinc: Dave Beckett's Turtle isn't the same as the W3C submission
15:45:15 <yvesr> sandro: 1.0 is a combination of all the specs and all mainstream parsers that are out there
15:45:29 <yvesr> ericP: we can do an adequate job by saying that 1.1 is what we specify
15:46:44 <ericP> PROPOSED: the string identifier for the version of Turtle published by the RDF WG is "Turtle 1.1"
15:46:49 <yvesr> +1
15:46:53 <gkellogg> +1
15:46:56 <Gus> +1
15:46:57 <ericP> +1
15:46:58 <AZ> +1
15:47:02 <ivan> 0
15:47:03 <pfps> +1.1
15:47:07 <Souri> +1
15:47:09 <gavinc> -0
15:47:10 <sandro> Formally speaking we might call them "RDF 1.1 <foo>" like "RDF 1.1 TriG" which might be informallr abreviated to "TriG 1.1"
15:47:11 <markus> +0
15:47:12 <Arnaud> +1
15:47:18 <davidwood> +1
15:47:24 <sandro> +0.75
15:47:42 <PatH> +1
15:47:55 <davidwood> However, I do like sandro's suggestion.
15:47:58 <yvesr> sandro: technically it's 'rdf 1.1 turtle'
15:47:59 <gavinc> +1 to RDF 1.1 Turtle
15:48:04 <markus> always finds it strange if something doesn't start with 1.0... people will wonder where to find 1.0
15:48:09 <AndyS> alt -- "Turtle (RDF 1.1)"
15:48:11 <yvesr> ... as it is rdf 1.1 trig, turtle, etc.
15:48:28 <PatH> Tur1.1tle
15:48:36 <yvesr> gavinc: the biggest change to turtle is not the grammar, it is that everything is an xsd:string
15:48:43 <PatH> But seriously, +1 to sandro
15:48:46 <markus> +1 to using RDF 1.1 in the title instead of Turtle 1.1
15:48:52 <ivan> +1 to Sandro
15:49:00 <gkellogg> +1 to RDF 1.1 Turtle/Trig/N-Triples/N-Quads
15:49:07 <Souri> +1 to RDF 1.1 *
15:49:14 <yvesr> Gus: it's a bit long, but very descriptive and very clear
15:49:30 <ivan> do we change the document's short name?
15:49:32 <Arnaud> are we going to do the same for every format?
15:49:36 <AndyS> +1
15:50:27 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use names like  "RDF 1.1 Turtle" for Turtle, TriG, N-Triples, N-Quads.    Okay to informally call it "Turtle 1.1" but formally it's "RDF 1.1 Turtle".
15:50:33 <Arnaud> unless we do that consistently I don't think that's a good idea
15:50:34 <AZ> +1
15:50:35 <yvesr> Gus: we have about 4 minutes left - we can do this proposal and then close this call
15:50:38 <yvesr> +1
15:50:38 <ericP> +1
15:50:42 <gkellogg> +1
15:50:43 <gavinc> +1
15:50:43 <Gus> +1
15:50:45 <sandro> +1
15:50:55 <davidwood> +1
15:51:00 <Arnaud> -0
15:51:01 <Souri> +1
15:51:19 <yvesr> Gus: I suggest we adapt all the titles of the documents now
15:51:27 <gavinc> Arnaud, I'll do it for everything I'm editing... so yeah, that's all the new syntaxes ;)
15:51:40 <ivan> q+
15:51:44 <yvesr> sandro: the bibliography needs to be changed as well
15:51:51 <ivan> zakim, unmute ivan
15:51:51 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
15:51:52 <yvesr> gavinc: I'll update the titles and bibliography
15:52:02 <yvesr> ACTION: gavinc to update documents and bibliography
15:52:02 <trackbot> Error finding 'gavinc'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.
15:52:10 <yvesr> ACTION: gavin to update documents and bibliography
15:52:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-319 - Update documents and bibliography [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-11-06].
15:52:12 <sandro> RESOLVED: We'll use names like  "RDF 1.1 Turtle" for Turtle, TriG, N-Triples, N-Quads.    Okay to informally call it "Turtle 1.1" but formally it's "RDF 1.1 Turtle".
15:52:17 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to respond to TCR33 with the string identifier for the version of Turtle published by the RDF WG is "RDF 1.1 Turtle"
15:52:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-320 - Respond to tcr33 with the string identifier for the version of turtle published by the rdf wg is "rdf 1.1 turtle" [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-11-06].
15:53:15 <ivan> ack ivan
15:53:30 <yvesr> Gus: we didn't get to Antoine's dataset
15:53:48 <yvesr> Gus: let's talk about it next week
15:54:02 <yvesr> Gus: I hope we can get a complete draft of the primer in the next couple of weeks
15:54:07 <yvesr> Gus: let's adjourn
15:54:24 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:54:25 <AZ> buy
15:54:26 <Zakim> -David_Wood
15:54:26 <Zakim> -gkellogg
15:54:26 <yvesr> Gus: hopefully the transition meeting will go well!
15:54:33 <Zakim> -yvesr
15:54:35 <Zakim> -AZ
15:54:36 <Zakim> -Arnaud
15:54:49 <Zakim> -Souri
15:54:52 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
15:55:06 <Zakim> -markus
15:55:10 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:55:12 <Zakim> -EricP
15:55:14 <pfps> one call to transition them, and in the darkness publish them?
15:55:15 <gavinc> PatH:     Zakim Bridge +1.617.761.6200, conference 7332 ("RDFC")
15:55:23 <Zakim> -PatH
15:55:28 <Zakim> -GavinC
15:55:40 <yvesr> trackbot, end meeting
15:55:40 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:55:40 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Guus_Schreiber, Ivan, pfps, gkellogg, PatH, Arnaud, yvesr, Sandro, GavinC, EricP, David_Wood, markus, Souri, +33.0.81.16.5aaaa, AZ, AndyS
15:55:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:55:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
15:55:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:55:49 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
15:55:49 <RRSAgent> ACTION: pfps to contact Michael about RDF semantics tests [1]
15:55:49 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-13-21
15:55:49 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP to see that parsing rules in Turtle map plain literal syntax to literal constructor of type xsd:string [2]
15:55:49 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-28-23
15:55:49 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP to respond to TCR8 [3]
15:55:49 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-29-13
15:55:49 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP to edit turtle-bnf.html to add quoted characters and respond with an affirmative on TCR34 [4]
15:55:49 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-38-03
15:55:49 <RRSAgent> ACTION: gavinc to update documents and bibliography [5]
15:55:49 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-52-02
15:55:49 <RRSAgent> ACTION: gavin to update documents and bibliography [6]
15:55:49 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-52-10
15:55:49 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP to respond to TCR33 with the string identifier for the version of Turtle published by the RDF WG is "RDF 1.1 Turtle" [7]
15:55:49 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T15-52-17
15:56:05 <Zakim> -AndyS