15:00:59 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 15:00:59 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/22-wai-wcag-irc 15:01:01 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:01:03 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 15:01:04 ok, trackbot, I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM already started 15:01:04 Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 15:01:04 Date: 22 October 2013 15:01:19 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 15:01:34 Chair: AWK 15:01:41 Zakim, Adobe is AWK 15:01:41 +AWK; got it 15:02:02 +??P28 15:02:16 regrets: Korn 15:02:32 +Bruce_Bailey 15:03:05 +[IPcaller] 15:03:26 regrets: Kerstin_Probiesch, James_Nurthen, Peter_Korn 15:03:35 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2013OctDec/0052.html 15:03:35 zakim, +[IPcaller] is me 15:03:35 sorry, Peter_Thiessen, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]' 15:03:43 zakim, IPcaller is me 15:03:43 +Peter_Thiessen; got it 15:03:47 zakim, mute me 15:03:47 Peter_Thiessen should now be muted 15:04:48 marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag 15:05:34 +Marc_Johlic 15:07:49 zakim, unmute me 15:07:49 Peter_Thiessen should no longer be muted 15:07:56 zakim, mute me 15:07:56 Peter_Thiessen should now be muted 15:08:09 scribe: Kathy 15:09:04 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131008comments/ 15:09:04 +Alan_Smith 15:09:05 +Katie_Haritos-Shea 15:09:19 zakim, unmute me 15:09:19 Peter_Thiessen should no longer be muted 15:10:29 zakim, mute me 15:10:29 Peter_Thiessen should now be muted 15:10:34 bbailey has joined #wai-wcag 15:10:57 kathleen has joined #wai-wcag 15:11:29 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131008comments/ 15:12:14 TOPIC: ARIA Technique: Using ARIA Live Regions or role=alert to Identify Errors [Open] 15:12:49 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131008comments/results 15:13:07 Kathy: Josh was going to put together an example for this one 15:13:21 irc://irc.w3.org:6665/#wai-wcag 15:13:29 TOPIC: 8. HTML Technique: Using heading tags to markup row header cells that group rows [Not accepted -start from here on 15th Oct with update] 15:14:31 AWK: what is the update on this 15:15:19 David: there is a few things in the testing. This is about scope on the th. Testing on two tables one with scope and the other without 15:15:32 http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.html 15:15:42 Joshue108 has joined #wai-wcag 15:16:22 David: Test results for complex table and simple table. Same behavior in JAWS; any th to the left of the column header is read as a row header 15:18:00 David: the issues is localized to JAWS. So is this a bug in JAWS or expected behavior? 15:18:10 q+ to ask what is read when querying headings for a single cell, not using table navigation commands? 15:18:19 ack me 15:18:19 AWK, you wanted to ask what is read when querying headings for a single cell, not using table navigation commands? 15:18:58 AWK: how are you testing? Are you using the table navigation keys? 15:19:19 David: Yes, using table navigation keys. 15:20:13 RESOLUTION: leave open 15:20:16 TOPIC: 9. HTML and XHTML Techniques - H63: Using the scope attribute to associate header cells and data cells in data tables - re-written 15:20:16 AWK: the scope issue is #9 in the survey 15:21:01 David: scope fixes the issues in JAWS. Do we consider this as a bug in JAWS or is it expected behavior 15:21:45 AWK: If you move the virtual focus, in JAWS you can read the table headers for a cell. If you don't use the scope does this read? 15:21:57 David: Yes, it reads in td but not in th 15:22:49 David: JAWS does read in a different voice the header cells 15:23:23 +[IPcaller] 15:23:42 David: It does this because it is looking to the left and above for headers. Since there is no scope, it thinks it is a row heading 15:24:06 Joshue has joined #wai-wcag 15:24:17 AWK: Does the read marked heading change the way that it reads? 15:24:21 Zakim, who is on the queue? 15:24:21 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:24:25 zakim, IPcaller is Joshue_O_Connor 15:24:25 +Joshue_O_Connor; got it 15:24:36 David: that does not change the behavior 15:24:55 AWK: Bruce what advice do you give? 15:25:13 zakim, mute me 15:25:13 Joshue_O_Connor should now be muted 15:26:03 q+ 15:26:19 Bruce: It depends on the complexity of the table. For simple tables, don't need scope since it is implied. 15:26:54 have we a URI for the table? 15:27:30 +q 15:27:30 Bruce: This example has two levels of headers so you need scope 15:27:36 http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.html 15:27:38 http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.html 15:28:13 ack dav 15:28:40 David: do you really need headers and id for the tables ... but this is another conversation. For simple tables the JAWS has the same behavior 15:30:09 AWK: At the bottom of the page, there are two small examples. David's test results show that the JAWS reads all heading to the left of the header 15:30:32 ack me 15:30:38 David: I have seen this behavior and so has Sailesh 15:30:40 q+ 15:31:54 Josh: The conversation last week was about whether scope should be added. When you have table group headings, Sailesh was using H3 headings. The question is whether to add scope to the example 15:32:06 David: Plays JAWS example 15:33:06 David: it is a good thing to do (adding scope) but this is specific to JAWS 15:33:13 ack bbailey 15:33:19 ack bru 15:34:00 Bruce: one area where you need scope is on row 1, column 1. Maybe this is causing the buggy behavior 15:34:37 http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.html 15:35:28 Josh: does it change if you just add column headers does that change the results 15:35:42 AWK: There is more AT that we need more information 15:36:04 David: tested with JAWS, NVDA, VoiceOver in IE, FF and Safari 15:36:18 David: Also looked at it with aViewer 15:36:42 +q 15:36:55 David: the screen readers need to make their own decision regarding headers 15:37:20 David: we should test with no row headers 15:38:29 AWK: JAWS is making the best guess based on the tables that are most common. I am not sure JAWS would count this as a bug. If you want the table to read correctly you need to add scope. 15:38:48 ack me 15:38:53 AWK: May be better to have scope but it is difficult to get developers to do this 15:39:37 Josh: Headers/id is more robust but it is harder to code. The scope method is easier. If it is a good thing to do, then we should support this. 15:40:22 David: finished testing, it has the same behavior without the row headers 15:40:56 AWK: Josh tell me what you said 15:41:48 q+ 15:42:13 Josh: It is part of good development practice. Sounds like it should be suggesting scope 15:43:04 Katie: don't have a problem supporting it. The author should have options though 15:43:12 +q 15:43:31 We do say "Note 1: For simple tables that have the headers in the first row or column then it is sufficient to simply use the TH elements without scope." in h63 at present. 15:44:47 Katie: continue support headers/id 15:45:08 AWK: The crux of the questions, should we allow table without scope 15:45:38 Katie: yes, it should be ok 15:46:05 Katie: it does read the header... it just reads more information 15:46:12 ack da 15:46:24 q+ 15:46:51 David: we need to encourage people to use scope since it is leading screen reader and it is not just a bug. In our examples we should have scope but we should not have failure if they don't have a scope 15:47:16 ack jo 15:47:19 ack me 15:48:45 Josh: I agree with David. This came up because Sailesh has example where this does not work. Scope is an easier method to do this; we should support this because it increases user experience. 15:49:54 David: This goes back to different versions in JAWS. Headers/id and scope are two different issues. The heuristics on the the table are pretty good so don't always need headers/id 15:50:13 Alan_Smith has joined #wai-wcag 15:50:40 no 15:50:41 AWK: #9 is just talking about scope always being required. Hearing from a few of you that scope should not always should be required 15:50:45 Team, sorry I had to take another call and missed the conversation up to now and need to drop the call. 15:51:04 AWK: we should demonstrate good practices. Should we fail if there is no scope 15:51:10 Bruce: only for the corner cell 15:51:33 h 15:51:47 AWK: H63 says they can use just th for simple table. Beyond that something is required 15:51:55 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H63.html 15:51:59 +q 15:52:10 David: we should tell people that we recommend it strongly to use scope 15:52:14 Thank you. Regrets that I need to drop. Tables is a challenge for many. 15:52:19 -q 15:52:25 AWK: modify note 1 15:52:32 current note 1: Note 1: For simple tables that have the headers in the first row or column then it is sufficient to simply use the TH elements without scope. 15:52:50 We are putting in scope in our's. 15:53:20 I'll check emails for updates. Thank you. 15:53:24 David: say that is recommended to add scope 15:53:25 -Alan_Smith 15:53:56 Josh: will suggest text 15:54:36 AWK: is there anyone that wants to speak against not changing h63 except for adding language to encourage scope 15:54:53 AWK: Ok, so we will suggest language 15:56:18 For simple tables that have table headers in the first row or column then it is sufficient to use only the TH elements. Otherwise, it is advisable to use the scope attribute to provide information to a screen reader about col and row relationships to these headers. 15:56:40 Note 1: For simple tables that have the headers in the first row or column then it is recommended to use scope but sufficient to simply use the TH elements without scope. 15:57:37 q+ to say simple tables that ONLY have the headers in the first row or column 15:57:41 switch without scope. to use the TH elements alone 15:57:45 Note 1: For simple tables that have the headers in the first row or column then it is recommended to use scope but sufficient to simply use the TH elements. 15:57:50 ack b 15:57:50 bbailey, you wanted to say simple tables that ONLY have the headers in the first row or column 15:57:54 + 1 For simple tables that have the headers in the first row or column then it is recommended to use scope but sufficient to simply use the TH elements 15:58:45 Note 1: For simple tables that only have the headers in the first row or column then it is recommended to use scope but sufficient to simply use the TH elements. 15:59:42 David: the example has the scope in the second column. Add a new example of a simple table that shows good form 16:00:03 AWK: May not be for this one 16:00:43 David: This example would have scope, but would be in the first column instead of the second column for the row headers 16:01:39 Josh: what is wrong with example 1 16:01:59 David: The row headers are in the second column not in the far left column 16:02:19 AWK: this does not meet what we are saying in note 1 16:02:45 David: I can modify the example to meet that 16:03:52 AWK: let's get back to the issue Sailesh raised. We got the general action. Who would like to write up the official response? I will do it 16:04:15 ACTION on AWK to add h63 issue to tracker and add response, based on working work disagreeing that scope is always required. 16:04:15 Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at . 16:05:29 action: AWK to add h63 issue to tracker and add response, based on working work disagreeing that scope is always required. 16:05:29 Created ACTION-226 - Add h63 issue to tracker and add response, based on working work disagreeing that scope is always required. [on Andrew Kirkpatrick - due 2013-10-29]. 16:05:44 RESOLUTION: return for future work; see action 16:06:39 noted :) 16:06:55 TOPIC: 8. HTML Technique: Using heading tags to markup row header cells that group rows [Not accepted -start from here on 15th Oct with update] 16:06:58 TOPIC: 8. HTML Technique: Using heading tags to markup row header cells that group rows [Not accepted -start from here on 15th Oct with update] 16:07:39 http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.html 16:07:40 http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.html 16:09:11 AWK: you can look at the table example from Josh; the question - is it acceptable to have the sub-headings that represent a series of cells below them? Sailesh reports it works well with JAWS. Loretta thinks it is stretch 16:09:38 AWK: Does anyone think that we should suggest this? 16:09:53 David: it does work in JAWS 16:09:57 q+ to say there´s a difference between what works and what the WG might want to ¨bless¨ 16:10:25 Josh: it does not provide the information to let screen reader users to know they are in a data table 16:11:11 ack me 16:11:11 MichaelC, you wanted to say there´s a difference between what works and what the WG might want to ¨bless¨ 16:11:18 Michael: regardless of whether or not it works, we don't need to add it. Can encourage others to add it as a technique 16:11:32 David: it does validate 16:11:48 AWK: It does not validate under HTML5 16:11:51 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-preview/headings-and-sections.html 16:12:01 “The first element of heading content in an element of sectioning content represents the heading for that section.” 16:12:01 “Certain elements are said to be sectioning roots, including blockquote and td elements. These elements can have their own outlines, but the sections and headings inside these elements do not contribute to the outlines of their ancestors.” 16:12:12 JOSH Note: Does this mean that a heading used within a data table would NOT be able to relate to any following cells? Looks like it 16:13:18 + 1 to AWK, this method doesn't indicate context for the user or relationships between a document heading with a table and its surrounding content. 16:13:28 AWK: my concern is in line with Josh. The headings within the table will not be conveyed as a header when in a data cell. It is not strong enough 16:13:37 s/JOSH Note: Does this mean that a heading used within a data table would NOT be able to relate to any following cells? Looks like it/ 16:13:54 AWK: we should respond as Michael suggested 16:14:01 +1 to not blessing as technique 16:14:39 RESOLUTION: do not accept 16:15:22 TOPIC: Get the groups thoughts on improving the technique submission/commenting process 16:15:48 Josh: we would like to get feedback on how we can improve it 16:16:19 Josh: the comment often has raw code and it is hard to associate back to the technique 16:17:30 Bruce: until someone puts the example on a live page, it is hard to discuss. Can we have HTML code rendered as part of the submission? 16:18:00 David: talk about moving to Github 16:18:07 zakim, queue? 16:18:07 I see no one on the speaker queue 16:18:28 Michael: can do poll request after people have changed the technique. There may be issues with quality 16:19:15 Josh: not sure what the features are on Github. Is there a big win to move to this? What does it above what we can do today? 16:19:33 q+ 16:19:48 Can anyone speak to that, what are the benefits of Github that will help us to improve the submission and commenting process? 16:20:16 Michael: Github is a platform that many are familiar with. If someone copies the HTML and makes edit, it tracks the changes and allows you to accept or reject them 16:21:12 what is the url of the submission form? 16:21:21 Michael: could create a template on Github but may not address the quality issue. May need public training, helping people with submissions or editing them ourselves 16:21:25 +1 github 16:21:32 +1 16:21:35 (use it daily) 16:21:41 AWK: Who knows Github> 16:22:12 zakim, unmute me 16:22:12 Peter_Thiessen should no longer be muted 16:22:15 AWK: using it, increases your familiarity with it. There is a bit of a learning curve 16:22:33 Peter: Very familiar with Github 16:23:01 Josh: If you are familiar with it, do you think Github would be a win for moving to it 16:23:06 Note we set up space for WCAG on Github, but haven´t done anything with it: https://github.com/w3c/wcag 16:23:25 rssagent, draft minutes 16:23:30 q+ to say TBC uses it: http://www.github.com/wet-boew/ 16:23:43 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:23:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/22-wai-wcag-minutes.html Joshue 16:23:54 q+ to say I don´t know how all this works with our formal review process 16:24:00 Peter: good for version control; users can comment on versions and branching to add sub-work. The history is tracked. The only resolution is that it does have a steep learning curve and is mainly used for developers 16:24:13 zakim, mute me 16:24:13 Peter_Thiessen should now be muted 16:24:31 zakim, unmute me 16:24:31 Peter_Thiessen should no longer be muted 16:24:46 s/rssagent, draft minutes/ 16:24:55 AWK: it is worth some investigation. One questions - when you do something in Github and change the html, do you need to take it down? 16:25:10 AWK: can you render it in the browser? 16:25:26 Peter: you need to take it down and make the edits and upload it. 16:25:41 See https://github.com/chaals 16:25:50 AWK: you can view the source but then you need to check it out and then launch it from the browser 16:26:16 https://github.com/chaals/longdesc-tests 16:26:40 David: The example shows the examples and information for longdesc discussion that was going on 16:26:54 s/rssagent, draft minutes/ \ 16:27:12 Peter: you can add structured content 16:27:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:27:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/22-wai-wcag-minutes.html Joshue 16:27:33 David: the links goes to pages that are on Github 16:27:42 here are wet-boew examples: http://wet-boew.github.io/wet-boew/demos/index-en.html 16:28:15 Bruce: here are some live examples of Github 16:28:22 Scribe: AWKl 16:28:28 -Kathy_Wahlbin 16:28:32 q- 16:28:51 JO: anything that people think would improve submission and comment process? 16:29:04 JO: ie. actual improvements? 16:29:26 q- 16:29:33 q- 16:29:43 ps. you can point to resources from github and for example host pages using (http://pages.github.com/) but as far as within a repository the view is only RAW (Source) 16:29:54 zakim, mute me 16:29:54 Peter_Thiessen should now be muted 16:30:39 AWK: we are _highly_ receptive to suggestions for improvements in this area. Please keep that in mind and let the chairs know if you have any ideas for greater efficiency. 16:30:54 David: thinks use of GitHub will help 16:31:00 +1 Github is really useful (we could keep it simple) 16:31:17 David: may be able to help with some training and repository setup 16:31:42 s/rssagent, draft minutes/ 16:32:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:32:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/22-wai-wcag-minutes.html Joshue 16:33:00 AWK: we will talk about at editor's meeting tomorrow, follow up with WG about trying it out. 16:33:08 rrsagent, make minutes 16:33:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/22-wai-wcag-minutes.html AWK 16:33:35 zakim, unmute me 16:33:35 Peter_Thiessen should no longer be muted 16:33:39 -AWK 16:33:40 -Joshue_O_Connor 16:33:41 -David_MacDonald 16:33:42 -Katie_Haritos-Shea 16:33:42 -Bruce_Bailey 16:33:42 -Michael_Cooper 16:33:43 -Kathleen_Anderson 16:33:44 -Marc_Johlic 16:33:50 -Peter_Thiessen 16:33:51 WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended 16:33:51 Attendees were David_MacDonald, Kathleen_Anderson, Kathy_Wahlbin, AWK, Michael_Cooper, Bruce_Bailey, Peter_Thiessen, Marc_Johlic, Alan_Smith, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Joshue_O_Connor 16:34:24 rrsagent, make minutes 16:34:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/22-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC 17:26:24 Peter_Thiessen has joined #wai-wcag 18:35:34 Zakim has left #wai-wcag 20:23:33 MichaelC_ has joined #wai-wcag