Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference -- 21 Oct 2013

<trackbot> Date: 21 October 2013

<brady_duga> Is the status message still valid?

<mgylling> brady, no

<brady_duga> ok

<brady_duga> Is this a prisoner reference?

+1 muted person

Markus: any scribe volunteers today?

<scribe> Scribe: Karen

Markus: We did not meet last week but back in business now

<mgylling> last week's minutes: http://www.w3.org/dpub/DPUB-07-Oct-2013.htm

Markus: Minutes from previous week
... Do we have any objections to approve them?
... If so, speak up now
... Good, as you may recall
... there was not a track bot
... because we changed channels
... so last week's minutes are raw irc minutes
... We are back to normal today
... We have a mixed bag agenda today
... Some planning for TPAC Agenda
... Some Administrative issues
... before we get to the Task Force [work]
... Do we have anyone who has not been with us before today?
... No
... Other small thing to relay for TPAC
... Ivan told me there will be dial-in abilities
... a conference line and irc channel
... So you can partake in all or part
... Details will be provided closer to TPAC
... On to today's first discussion
... As you know we have defined a set of task forces or sub-groups holding on a particular topic
... What we want to start thinking about acting on
... is to identify additional task forces
... to speed up the process of use case and requirements production
... Let's remind ourselves what we have currently for task forces
... We have Pagination group with Dave Cramer
... Social MEdia and Annotations with Robert Sanderson as lead
... Accessibility with Suzanne Taylor from Pearson
... And Jean Kaplansky for
... MathML
... is that correct, or is there a broader scope?

Jean: I was doing MathML but we also have broader scope which is @

Markus: Those are the four we have started
... Question becomes how do we want to proceed

<tzviya> there is a broader-scoped group of STM

Markus: to start new ones and continue with existing ones
... Let's do a quick evaluation of existing ones
... Rob cannot be here today
... What we know is that his group has been one of the most active getting stuff onto the wiki
... which is the first stepping stone towards our final deliverables
... Rob is in the Annotation CG
... don't worry a lot about getting what we need in that area
... If you go to the directory page on the wiki
... we have gotten two thirds of the way on the use cases he has set out to enter
... They have yet to be reviewed; but at a good early stage in the process
... Do we have any more on Social and Media Annotations?
... Shall we consider it running well?
... Take that as a yes
... In terms of other work groups
... Dave, on Pagination
... you are still in very early stages here
... We have good news with an IE coming with expertise

Dave: yes
... I will get in touch with his this week
... he was approved
... I have gotten a fair amount of work done on a pagination document
... We need to work out how we get this into a publicly available location so people can comment
... That is an official agenda item for today

Markus: yes
... May be a bit early
... If task forces have lack of resources, we should identify that
... It's a tad too early in your case since you started so recently

Dave: yes, things are not at risk
... but I want to get it set up and on a server
... and start getting feedback and contributions
... Doing this in isolation now
... would be a good next step to get this going

Markus: let's talk about this

Tzviya: a lot has to do with trade books
... outside of this world, we may want to get input from the rest of publishing

Dave: that would be great
... I have added some stuff that is not trade centric
... writing in HTML not in Google doc
... seems the discussion with Ivan
... would be good

Markus: Point taken, Tzviya, we need to look at other domains
... not just describing for the West
... Ok, Suzanne, how do you describe your current state?

Suzanne: I am unsure about how to collect names who want to participate and how to set up the calls
... first time running a W3C task force

Markus: it's up to us to define best way to do things
... I would start by the mailing list
... It has been a bit silent so far
... Important to have requirements and use cases going there
... it is automatically archived
... so good to get discourse going on the mailing list
... In terms of getting people to help you out
... I have been reaching out to Benetech
... they recently became a W3C member
... and they are all about Accessibility
... also will get a Daisy Consortium member to participate
... And I think we have a w3C member from Protocols and Formats WG
... to contribute in Accessibility area

Suzanne: great

Markus: Do you have others in mind?

Suzanne: Would be great to find someone from school systems and universities
... a lot of what we want to look at has to do with education

Bill: I have two names
... one is Bob Martinengo at Georgia State
... another is @
... Markus is AAP a member or considering?

Karen: I'll follow up with you offline

Bill: university contacts may be good

Suzanne: thank you

Bill: I am on queue
... mailing list is that it goes to IG members or more broadly?

Markus: We use the public-dpub-ig list

Karen: subscribers to public lists can post

Markus: Bill, we'll need to first look at W3C membership
... since it takes time to become an IE or Member
... So Daisy would be good
... In terms of schools and unversities

Karen: I'm happy to work with offline Suzanne about current members and identification of other universities doing work in this area

Bill: CourseSmart and Vital Source
... biggest distributors of higher ed books
... and they have significant Accessibility requirements in their platforms

<tzviya> CourseSmart and VitalSource (an Ingram company)

Markus: Continue to expand outreach

Suzanne: thank you

Markus: Jean and STM

Jean: Right now we have a few actual use cases out there
... and area we need to pick up again
... I have been doing testing across devices
... we're doing a webinar Nov 5th
... it will start up again
... after I finish a bit of consulting
... and put together more information based on testing

Markus: great
... Do you have any thoughts about other stakeholders we should try to engage?

Jean: In terms of W3C members
... we might want to reach out to someone at Cengage Learning

+1 Karen in touch

scribe: and they do a lot of..

<tzviya> Wiley will contribute to STM use cases

Jean: have not thought of anybody else

Bill: Springer, Elsevier?

Jean: Those are good choices as well

Bill: they are big enough
... would be good candidates for W3C membership

Jean: Springer and Elsevier are good choices
... I will have to get back to you on that
... also thinking about at least one university person

Karen: I am happy to follow up with Jean offline as well

Markus: Good
... Jean, it sounds like you have a plan to get going

Jean: yes
... heads down on testing and development period
... then go back to what I'm doing for W3C

Markus: The next major question is new task forces
... What do we try to start beyond what we already have
... Do we have any @

Tzviya: One of areas
... listed is InfoGraphics
... I think large images become tricky
... dealing with multiple screen sizes
... may be an area we want to explore
... Not something I am equipped to head up
... but maybe somebody else is

Markus: What is the abstract description of the problem?
... tables are same problem

Tzviya: may be in area of adaptive layout
... especially when they include fine detail

Markus: yes
... that is one area
... We have short exchange about fonts
... and maybe starting something about that
... Is Vlad on the call?

Vlad: yes, on call, but bad connection

Markus: Do you think it's a good idea to start a task force around fonts in dpublishing

Vlad: I would like to give it more thought
... not about fonts but more about typography as a resource; how people use fonts
... see if it's worthwhile to create a sub-group
... or if it's done another way; good to discuss at TPAC
... I will be there

Markus: yes, we need to understand better what you have in mind
... We have a placeholder slot for this
... Good to devote some time to this at TPAC

Vlad: good, thank you

Markus: What else?

Tzviya: We have not approached the topic of metadata at all
... there is a lot of it out there
... and it's all messed up

Markus: yes
... I have talked with Ivan as well
... In terms of addressing
... it's an enormously complicated field
... It's...challenging to have just IDPF and W3C address when there are many solutions out there
... Tzviya, maybe you have ideas about what to contribute

Sharad: I would suggest looking at largest architecture issues
... rather than what does metadata say
... either other aspects of HTML5 spec
... that could be approved and help increase the utility of metadata
... it intersects with RDF and microdata
... that approach I would suggest
... We don't want to get into discussions with ONYX and PRISM
... should be a higher level than that

Tzviya: yes, Bill said what I was going to say
... more like schema project to figure out how to incorporate with RDF
... I know a lot of people who would have fun with this

Markus: our mandate so to speak is to identify problems in the Open Web Platform
... and say what it does not yet address for publishing
... is it really a problem here for the OWP
... is it providing all the building blocks we need to make rich vocabularies

Bill: not prepared to answer; but that may be the answer

Markus: that is a good approach
... to find out what the answer is
... Bill, would you be willing to look at it
... not nec commit to lead it right away?

Bill: sure

Markus: My first suggestion is for you to talk to Ivan
... who also is SemWeb lead at W3C
... contact him and we can set up an offline discussion

Bill: ok

Markus: Good
... Another one I was thinking about
... and looking at you, Tzviya, about structural semantics
... Thinking that
... at the moment ePub is extending HTML in various ways
... structural semantics; also name spaces being used
... you will know what I'm thinking about
... and that is one of the areas in this activity as a whole
... is to understand what these extensions do and why
... and whether OWP should provide better solutions to enable these extensions
... I am looking for a task force to look at the various extensions being used out there and documenting them

<Bill_Kasdorf> Correction: "Sharad" above should be "Bill"

Markus: So we have documented extension use cases
... Structural semantics is just one

Tzviya: Examples like data type

Markus; yes and custom name spaces

scribe: all the kinds of things that various vendors do in slightly different ways
... I am wondering if there is anybody who would be willing to focus on HTML content
... extensions or adaption
... and basically map out use cases for extentions that we have today?

Tzviya: I could take a stab at it

Markus: Thank you
... Looking at the wiki page
... you started structural semantics
... could you genericize it
... to include that and also include dictionaries
... along with this
... don't just limit to structural but also behavioral

<Hajar> I would like to contribute on HTML content

Markus: Suggestion for now that we have a new task force with Tzviya's lead
... what should we call it?
... use mailing list to comment, ask questions, make announcements so we get more traffic on the list
... Any questions, Tzviya

Tzviya: I know there are people who interpret algorithms
... does this fall into this category

Markus: Interpret as in what?

Tzviya: A new reference; rendering of book behaves in a certain way

Markus: Heuristics?
... no, I don't we think should describe these
... great to see you take this on

Jean: I was going to say...we should think of something to call it rather than Extensibility group
... we have been there with XML
... and we don't want any confusion

Markus: right
... All of these things are done
... because they are wanting in a declarative way
... to indicate behaviors
... the read about attribute to an audio element has a specific behavior
... maybe call it something with behavioral adaption
... is that what this is about?

Jean: That makes sense
... we threw out heuristic
... maybe call it behavioral

Markus: Behavioral Adaptional Content
... maybe start there
... of the task forces to kick off today
... two new threads have started today
... Bill is talking to Ivan about metadata and find an approach to find something there
... And Tzviya is doing behavioral adpation of content
... we have started agenda page for TPAC
... Item 10
... agenda email
... we are talking and meeting with CSS group and parts of HTML Wg
... If you go onto the agenda page
... you will see preliminary meetings
... Also hope to have sessions to work on use case and requirements production
... We have currently listed five
... Not go into deep discussion now
... But request to all of you who are participating
... and let us know if there is a particular topic you would like to see listed
... We decided today we will talk about fonts
... Vlad will be tehre

s/there

scribe: We are talking about Pagination with CSS WG
... and work on producing requirements
... your review of agenda topics and requirements is welcome
... Any questions

Sharad: Should this group worry about anything to do with security or not?

Markus: yeah
... it is not out of scope

Sharad: Should we create a group with that?

Markus: sure
... that is certainly doable
... would you be willing to lead that sub-group?

Sharad: yes

Markus: So we are listing a third new effort today
... on security with lead from Sharad

Dave: is it content protection type ideas
... be in contact with Ivan
... about what @ is doing and W3C doing with EME
... some talk of it that this group
... might be a place to work out relationship between these things
... what are needs of publishing industry
... with tech that w3C is already or potentially working on

Markus: exactly
... A good outcome
... is to describe what DRM means in the case of digital publishing

Dave: yes, there is some confusion about
... technologies that exist around books and as it relates to web platform

Markus: exactly
... that is right
... Ruben, are you here?

Brady: I have a question about security for users or for IPR?

Markus: for users or publishers?

Sharad: If we are to comprehend, we have to look at both
... users and publishers
... and sometimes devices as well
... Maybe goal of sub-group is to see what has been done
... and if there are limitations for publishers
... or issues for users as well
... Makes sense?

Brady: that is a good answer, thank you

Sharad: I am happy to talk to you

Markus: We need to move on

<mgylling> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013Oct/0014.html

Markus: Next agenda item is a request for review of CSS Text
... Posted by Bert Bos
... we are hopefully going to be able to produce some comments on this from a publishing perspective
... we have until Nov 7th to produce commentary
... Do we have anyone here today who would like to take on review of this specification?
... Somebody reviews and brings up on one of these calls
... So this group can respond as a whole

Dave: I can probably do that

Jean: I can contribute to it

Markus: anybody else

Brady: I will take a look

Markus: Dave, Jean and Brady
... Not too much time left
... So ask that you complete your review
... by Monday, 4 November
... and we'll bring this up the agenda then
... for review and we will send to Bert and CSS WG on 5th or 6th
... Any more questions about Bert and CSS WG?
... Great
... Dave Cramer and Pagination
... You told us before
... You continued work in a separate HTML doc not yet publicly available

Dave: right, based on conversations with you and Ivan about what authoring process to use

Markus: using GitHub is doable
... one of reasons we are doing wiki is to keep content there
... we will do a report format later on
... and not have a struggle for contributors
... If we believe use of Git and ReSpec will not be a hindrance, certainly fine

Dave: this is a fairly complex document structurally
... has numerous code examples, illustrations
... things like that
... does not seem a natural fit for a wiki environment

Markus: sure

Dave: I have never been ivolved with this kind of work at W3C so far
... Ivan suggesting this
... also not clear how much people are interested to author sections within this document on their own
... or if I do the work to integrate contributions
... things like that

Markus: Would this live on w3C Github account?

Dave: yes, I think so

Markus: sure

Dave: would need some help from Ivan getting this up and running
... and set up an appropriate location
... for repositories

Markus: do we have any objections to moving this document to GitHub?
... I suggest you contact Ivan and you get going
... This is same approach we will take for the wiki eventually
... do that switch at the right point in time
... which is not now

Dave: I'll be the guinea pig for this now

Markus: Anything else you want to discuss today?

Dave: not at the moment

Markus: Suzanne, on Accessibility, anything to bring up today?

Suzanne: not today
... I am putting some categories up
... and fill in use cases
... and hoping it will recruit more people and spart interest

Markus: sounds like a great plan
... we have a couple minutes left
... Has there been any activity on the wiki

Tzviya: I added a use case

Markus: what does it say?

Tzviya: table data needs to be legible at different screen sizes

Markus: right, under pagination and styling
... this is the spirit of the image problem you mentioned earlier

Tzviya: exactly

Markus: great

Bill: if nothing more...a question
... Am I right that the use cases will not be used for proposed solutions
... describes a problem, right?

Markus: correct; we are just describing problems
... not finding solutions

Bill: collapsing rows and columns is in category of a proposed solution?

Markus: also case we are only putting time into describing things that are problems
... If we have use cases already covered by OWP
... they are out
... We are not spending time to describe things that are solved
... problem is in the ereader landscape
... whether OWP needs to accommodate tables better

Tzviya: As screens get smaller, I think it's a problem on all platforms
... seeing it more in books than on web pages

Markus: perhaps you can elaborate more on the specifics of the problem
... so people will understand better than this is seriously annoying

Bill: and broadening the IG
... beyond book publishing
... journals are commonly online and it's a huge problem
... for journals
... people want to look at HTML journal content on various screen sizes so it's not just a book issue

Markus: we are over time
... thank you for today
... Any further comments?

@: I have a question

scribe: related to HTML5 and JS in epub
... have we mentioned this kind of problem
... or refer to this problem in the IG

Markus: if it's an epub problem, it's not for this IG
... if it's HTML5..

Hajar: a widget in an ebook?

Markus: if it's a problem with W3C technologies or a problem with ePub, not to be discussed here but at IDPF

Harjar: ebooks readers?
... sometimes...visiblity
... which can be related to W3C?

Markus: then yes, if related to W3C

Hajar: I contributed HTML content

Markus: great
... Hajar will contribute to Tzviya's effort
... any other questions

Suzanne: Is the MathML task force going to have a Pearson representative?

Jean: happy to have all contributors, that would be great

Markus: Any more questions
... talk to you again next week
... and increasingly on the list as well
... thank you everyone

- DRAFT -

Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

21 Oct 2013

Attendees

Contents

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output