18:02:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pf
18:02:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/18-pf-irc
18:02:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:02:32 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pf
18:02:33 <janina> Hi, I seem to have put the wrong access code in the invitation!
18:02:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:02:34 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
18:02:35 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:02:35 <trackbot> Date: 18 October 2013
18:02:40 <janina> What's the correct code?
18:02:51 <clown> zakim, what conference is this
18:02:51 <Zakim> clown, you need to end that query with '?'
18:02:57 <clown> zakim, what conference is this?
18:02:57 <Zakim> no conference has been selected, clown
18:03:01 <clown> hmmm....
18:03:12 <janina> Joseph, we're using IBM's telecon, not Zakim, that's why
18:03:23 <clown> oh, sorry janina.
18:03:31 <clown> shall I dismiss zakim?
18:03:42 <janina> The phone number in the invite is correct, but the access code isn't being accepted
18:03:50 <MarkS> i'm getting an incorrect access code on the IBM conference kline
18:03:52 <cyns> cyns has joined #pf
18:03:55 <clown> chalk it up to IBM.  :-)
18:04:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> you calling in?
18:04:04 <janina> me too, waiting for rich,
18:04:07 <cyns> Not getting audio
18:04:16 <janina> sorry about the access code, everyone
18:04:23 <cyns> stuck on a "waiting to join conference" page
18:04:37 <janina> Cynthia, do you have the IBM access code?
18:04:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> this is the passcode
18:04:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> 89599107
18:04:43 <clown> cyns, what do you mean by "page"?
18:04:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> we are not going to do the meeting room - just the call in
18:04:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> a number can only call in
18:05:05 <cyns> I mean that I clicked on the link in Rich's invitation, and I'm on some sort of web ui
18:05:21 <cyns> is there a phone number?
18:05:29 <clown> thanks cyns.  I  was just going to use google voice.
18:05:35 <clown> 888-426-6840
18:05:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina is in
18:05:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> :-P
18:06:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> this is the passcode: 89599107
18:07:12 <janina> Joseph, do you need the phone number?
18:09:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> trackbot, start meeting
18:09:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:09:49 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/18-pf-minutes.html janina
18:09:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:09:49 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
18:09:50 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:09:50 <trackbot> Date: 18 October 2013
18:09:56 <clown> scribenick:  cyns
18:09:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
18:10:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: make log public
18:10:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
18:10:39 <cyns> RS: topic of the meeting is implementation guide coordination
18:11:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: Implementation Guide Coordination Call
18:12:08 <cyns> RS: plan is this, but we can adjust
18:12:30 <cyns> RS: there are things we need to coordinate around the various implementation guides
18:12:54 <cyns> RS: aria and html5 have good work, need to adress aria in svg, is there anything we need to do with CSS?
18:13:22 <MarkS> CS: We need to figure out how to coordinate with UAAG
18:14:37 <MarkS> JS: about to go last call with 2.0 (UAAG).  Should start engaging them for next version
18:14:58 <MarkS> CS: need to start coordinating
18:15:33 <cyns> JS: how do we want to coordinate?  we're not on the same meetings
18:16:25 <cyns> JS: suggestion: in some cases we say the same thing in the different guides, can we build some boilerplate that shared between the multiple docs, using a database/include approach
18:16:34 <janina> q?
18:16:55 <cyns> clown: It would be nice to have a list of all the documents?
18:17:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> UAIG, UAAG,
18:17:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> and HTML5 Accessibility Implementation Guide
18:17:43 <clown> UAIG:  http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/
18:18:11 <MarkS> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-aapi/
18:18:22 <cyns> JS: UIAG, html accessiblity implementaiton guide, using wai-aria in HTML, section in HTML 5 spec about mapping html elements to aria roles
18:18:29 <MarkS> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-aapi/ HTML to Platform Accessibility APIs Implementation Guide
18:19:01 <cyns> JS: Shadi's group is doing some things about authoring guidance, should coordinate too
18:19:16 <janina> q?
18:19:26 <cyns> RS: do we want to map mobile APIs
18:19:45 <cyns> CS: is ios api different than osx api?
18:19:58 <cyns> RS: much lighter weight, no table headers for example.
18:20:15 <cyns> RS: android is different too
18:20:36 <cyns> RS: don't have a role or type in ios
18:20:44 <cyns> CS: so how does ios work?
18:20:57 <cyns> clown: it's tied to safari
18:21:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> can you hear me?
18:21:05 <cyns> cs: but it work on apps too
18:21:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> can you hear me?
18:21:26 <cyns> SF: I thought ios and osx api was similar.
18:21:38 <janina> Rich, we don't hear you
18:21:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> I am calling back in
18:21:49 <cyns> SF: thought main differnce was that safari wasn't as far ahead in ios
18:24:41 <MarkS> RS: Chromium is moving away from plugin and going with an AAPI over the next year
18:25:07 <cyns> JS: question for James Craig:  is the api on ios the same as the one on osx?
18:25:10 <clown> https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/iPhoneAccessibility/Accessibility_on_iPhone/Accessibility_on_iPhone.html  see 4th section.
18:25:55 <cyns> RS: good we're on the 5.1 timeframe, because there is a lot left out of mobile browsers today
18:26:13 <cyns> RS: do we see separate docs for aria, html5?  those could be the same.
18:26:25 <cyns> RS: separate sections for SVG, etc in one big doc?
18:27:00 <MarkS> CS: I think putting ARIA and HTML5 in the same doc is fine, but they are on a different timeline.
18:27:52 <MarkS> …There is a lot of overlap there, but I don't want to tie ARIA 2.0 to the HTML5 timeline
18:27:52 <MarkS> …SVG really seems very separate to me.  I don't see a reason to put those two together.
18:28:13 <MarkS> RS: Would be good to refer to sections of the document RE: and events section
18:28:27 <MarkS> CS: Think modularizing is a good idea.
18:28:53 <cyns> SM: aria core, aria+html5, aria+svg etc.
18:29:35 <cyns> RS: html5 bigest issue is html native host semantics
18:30:05 <cyns> RS: checkbox with aria-checked=mixed, for example
18:30:21 <cyns> RS: do we want to change aria spec to no longer require role?
18:30:58 <cyns> SF: should be defined in aria spec so that doesn't have to happen.  current browser impl is all over the place.  there's no reason to require an aria role when you already have a native role
18:31:11 <cyns> SF: it's already being mapped to tha api
18:32:20 <cyns> RS: if we were doing modularization, we'd say " for these elements in html5 you don't need an aria role because..., and the aria spec would say you don't need it too"
18:32:55 <cyns> RS: is it possible to have a generic doc covering host language semantics and eventing
18:33:58 <cyns> RS: can we have one general document that talks about mapping, and then specific things for html5 and for aria. refer to generic doc for a host a language
18:34:11 <cyns> CS: is this just for host language, or would there be other stuff too?
18:34:44 <clown> Quote from the UAIG:  "Processing document changes is important regardless of WAI-ARIA."
18:35:20 <cyns> RS: events, focus
18:35:58 <cyns> SM: core specification would have things that are universal across any mapping.  and then separate things that are specific to one technology
18:38:41 <cyns> RS: what do you think about a core mapping for core features like focus changes, showing and hiding content, etc. across apis
18:39:22 <cyns> RS: and then satelite docs that cover html, svg, aria, css and other things
18:39:53 <cyns> RS: for example, what are the events that need to be generated for a menu, whther that menu is implemented with html or aria
18:40:30 <cyns> RS: maybe somehting specific to graphics, with graphics ontology, for SVG and canvas.  the semantics would applicalble across the technologies
18:40:54 <cyns> CS: applicable to other drawing techs too... visio, pdf, illustrator, etc.
18:41:16 <cyns> RS: question about CSS.  where does that belong
18:41:28 <cyns> CS: I don't think we know yet.  I think we need to take on a project to answer that question
18:41:39 <cyns> RS: would a core spec be UAAG?
18:42:04 <cyns> CS: last time i looked it was much more UI focused and less api focused
18:42:18 <cyns> RS: when we try to specify UI, browser mfgr say no
18:42:37 <cyns> JS: we don't want to take over UAAG space
18:43:20 <cyns> CS: should UAAG own core API spec?
18:43:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #pf
18:44:20 <MarkS> CS: Do we want to ask the UAAG WG to take the lead, do we want to offer our resources to help?
18:47:00 <MarkS> SF: We shouldn't be worried about where the documents will live, but getting the documents written.
18:47:24 <cyns> CS: is there overlap?  we need to figure that out
18:48:36 <cyns> RS: do we agree on modularization?
18:48:40 <cyns> (no objections)
18:49:52 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #pf
18:50:00 <cyns> RS: ACTION rich: talk to mobile manufacturers about how to include their apis
18:50:25 <cyns> SM: also include core-mob, mobile interest group
18:51:12 <MarkS> ACTION: Rich to talk to mobile manufacturers about how to include their apis
18:51:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1279 - Talk to mobile manufacturers about how to include their apis [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2013-10-25].
18:52:26 <cyns> RS: look at existing spec, what would make sense to pull into core spec?
18:52:34 <cyns> JS: yes, we should work on that
18:52:43 <cyns> ACTI
18:53:10 <cyns> ACTION: rich to take a first pass at pulling aria core implementation out of aria UIAG
18:53:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1280 - Take a first pass at pulling aria core implementation out of aria uiag [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2013-10-25].
18:54:03 <cyns> RS: everyone start thinking about what areas they'd like to work on
18:54:25 <cyns> RS: issue with role and host language semantics is important.
18:54:31 <cyns> SF: yes, agree
18:54:53 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:54:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/18-pf-minutes.html jamesn
18:55:15 <cyns> SF: already in spec that global state and property don't need role, there are a few role-specific ones that we'd want to change to work without a role, like checked
18:55:25 <cyns> SF: there aren't that many, we should be able to resolve it
18:55:59 <cyns> RS: currently directing product teams to use section element and also put role on it for back-compat
19:05:25 <MarkS> rrsagent, make minutes
19:05:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/18-pf-minutes.html MarkS
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