14:41:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:41:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/16-rdf-wg-irc
14:41:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:41:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:41:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:41:49 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
14:41:50 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:41:50 <trackbot> Date: 16 October 2013
14:45:29 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
14:48:36 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:28 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:29 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
14:58:52 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:20 <pfps> zakim, this will be rdf-wg
14:59:20 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pfps
14:59:46 <pfps> zakim, this is RDF-WG
14:59:46 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I do not see a conference named 'RDF-WG' in progress or scheduled at this time
14:59:48 <Guus> trackbot, start meeting
14:59:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:59:53 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:59:53 <trackbot> Date: 16 October 2013
14:59:53 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
15:00:02 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
15:00:03 <Zakim> I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted
15:00:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see [GVoice], Guus_Schreiber, [IPcaller]
15:00:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, AndyS, Guus, Zakim, RRSAgent, gavinc, gkellogg, TallTed, ivan, trackbot, davidwood, yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP
15:00:11 <pfps> zakim, gvoice is me
15:00:11 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:00:15 <AndyS> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:00:15 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:00:23 <Zakim> +??P9
15:00:27 <Zakim> +GavinC
15:00:32 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P9 is me
15:00:34 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:00:36 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:01:00 <Zakim> +EricP
15:01:08 <ivan> zakim, code?
15:01:08 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
15:01:21 <gavinc> issue-156?
15:01:21 <trackbot> issue-156 -- Media type parameter for turtle -- open
15:01:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/156
15:01:37 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:01:39 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:01:45 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:01:45 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:01:47 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:57 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:57 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
15:01:59 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:59 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
15:02:31 <Zakim> -pfps
15:02:38 <markus> markus has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:02 <Zakim> +AZ
15:03:22 <Zakim> +??P20
15:03:28 <markus> zakim, ??P20 is me
15:03:28 <Zakim> +markus; got it
15:03:35 <AZ> Zakim, who is here
15:03:35 <Zakim> AZ, you need to end that query with '?'
15:03:35 <Guus> chair: Guus
15:03:40 <AZ> Zakim, who is here?
15:03:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, AndyS, yvesr, GavinC, Sandro, EricP, TallTed (muted), Ivan (muted), AZ, markus
15:03:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, AZ, AndyS, Guus, Zakim, RRSAgent, gavinc, gkellogg, TallTed, ivan, trackbot, davidwood, yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP
15:03:45 <Guus> zakim, pick a scribe
15:03:45 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sandro
15:04:02 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
15:04:42 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:46 <pfps> zakim, gvoice is me
15:04:47 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:04:51 <AndyS> zakim who is making noise?
15:04:58 <AndyS> zakim, who is making noise?
15:05:09 <Zakim> AndyS, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AZ (4%)
15:05:30 <AZ> weird, I've muted my phone
15:05:40 <ericP> mute it harder
15:05:50 <ericP> see?
15:06:56 <gavinc> -1 to accepting minutes
15:07:28 <Zakim> +David_Wood
15:07:31 <AndyS> issue-156?
15:07:31 <trackbot> issue-156 -- Media type parameter for turtle -- open
15:07:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/156
15:07:50 <AZ> q+ to mention problem with ACTION 309
15:08:13 <sandro> guus: we'll return to the munutes later
15:08:32 <AndyS> action-309?
15:08:32 <trackbot> action-309 -- David Wood to Make an editorial change to concepts in answer to issue-147 -- due 2013-10-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:08:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/309
15:09:58 <sandro> davidwood: Sorry, AZ, I didn't realized I'd missed some of your text -- I'll fix that.
15:11:01 <pfps> q+
15:11:10 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
15:11:10 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2013/10/16-rdf-wg-irc#T15-11-10
15:12:12 <AZ> q-
15:12:14 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/RDF_1.1_Concepts_and_Abstract_Syntax_Last_Call_Comments
15:12:39 <sandro> pfps: nanocomments  comment - is that just about trig?
15:12:49 <sandro> gavinc: It's more than trig
15:13:11 <sandro> gavin: I got lost in email thread with jeremy this week, on this
15:13:34 <sandro> guus: I'd like the CR decision next week, and I don't think Paul meant this as a formal comment.
15:14:08 <sandro> gavin: I'll reply later today, saying Trig says it's okay, and formal meaning is application dependent.
15:14:21 <sandro> issue-150
15:14:21 <trackbot> issue-150 -- LC Comment: references and acknowledgements -- open
15:14:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/150
15:14:26 <sandro> guus: purely editorial
15:14:45 <sandro> issue-142
15:14:45 <trackbot> issue-142 -- LC comment: rdfs:Graph ? comment -- open
15:14:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/142
15:14:57 <sandro> guus: discussed extensively.   close over objection.
15:15:01 <ivan> +1
15:15:04 <pfps> fine by me to close 142 even over objection
15:15:05 <AndyS> +1
15:15:08 <davidwood> +1
15:15:11 <yvesr> +1
15:15:11 <gavinc> +1 (expecting FO)
15:15:12 <AZ> I agree too
15:15:15 <ericP> +1
15:15:20 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close issue-142 over Jeremy's (planned) formal objection
15:15:21 <markus> +0
15:15:23 <sandro> +1
15:15:26 <AZ> +1
15:15:31 <sandro> guus: I don't see any more progress on this.
15:15:32 <TallTed> +1
15:15:46 <sandro> sandro: I agree
15:15:49 <sandro> pfps: I agree
15:16:13 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close issue-142 over Jeremy's (planned) formal objection
15:16:44 <sandro> close issue-142
15:16:45 <trackbot> Closed issue-142.
15:16:57 <markus> there's everything here
15:16:59 <markus> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/RDF_1.1_Concepts_and_Abstract_Syntax_Last_Call_Comments
15:17:32 <sandro> issue-145
15:17:32 <trackbot> issue-145 -- LC comment: Identify vs. Denote distinction is not helpful -- open
15:17:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/145
15:17:48 <sandro> guus: I'll ping commenter for response
15:17:56 <pfps> next week is ISWC, so some people (me included) may not be on the call
15:19:13 <gavinc> No comments, except for the typos
15:19:23 <sandro> sandro: hopefully decisions can be handled by proxy then.
15:19:29 <sandro> issue-127
15:19:29 <trackbot> issue-127 -- Comment: multiple ways to encode string codepoints -- open
15:19:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/127
15:19:50 <sandro> guus: Did we respond to this.
15:19:59 <sandro> gavin: I'll write a formal response to him, today.
15:20:12 <gavinc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2013Jul/0019.html
15:20:25 <sandro> guus: A lot of things need to be done this week, in order to avoid cascading increases in workload
15:21:46 <Guus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-trig-20130919/#grammar-ebnf
15:21:48 <sandro> guus: There's an oops on TriG -- it didn't mention the Features At Risk in the SOTF.
15:21:56 <sandro> s/SOTF/SOTD/
15:22:20 <sandro> guus: Maybe we can decides on the Features At Risk before CR?   We don't need to .
15:22:37 <AndyS> Include them.
15:22:46 <davidwood> +1
15:22:58 <gavinc> Include them
15:23:04 <ivan> q+
15:23:08 <sandro> guus:  First F.A.R -- the GRAPH keyword.    Quick check can we remove the At Risk flag and just keep the feature?
15:23:10 <sandro> +1
15:23:14 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
15:23:15 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
15:23:30 <pfps> q-
15:23:33 <Guus> ack pfps
15:23:40 <Guus> ack ivan
15:23:51 <sandro> PROPOSED: Remove "AT RISK" designation for "GRAPH Keyword" in TriG, keeping the feature
15:24:16 <ivan> +1
15:24:18 <ericP> +1
15:24:19 <sandro> +1
15:24:19 <gavinc> +1
15:24:21 <pfps> +1
15:24:21 <AndyS> +1
15:24:22 <davidwood> +1
15:24:23 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:24:23 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:24:28 <AZ> +1
15:24:29 <markus> +1
15:24:30 <Guus> +1
15:24:43 <sandro> RESOLVED: Remove "AT RISK" designation for "GRAPH Keyword" in TriG, keeping the feature
15:25:03 <sandro> PROPOSED: Remove "AT RISK" designation for "Unenclosed Triples" in TriG, keeping the feature
15:25:32 <davidwood> +1
15:25:33 <ericP> +1
15:25:34 <ivan> +1
15:25:35 <sandro> +1
15:25:36 <AndyS> Keep feature
15:25:36 <Guus> +1
15:25:37 <yvesr> +1
15:25:40 <AZ> +1
15:25:49 <markus> +1
15:25:50 <gavinc> +1 and make "with the same semantics" TRUE
15:26:40 <AndyS> q+
15:27:13 <Guus> ack AndyS
15:28:21 <sandro> RESOLVED: Remove "AT RISK" designation for "Unenclosed Triples" in TriG, keeping the feature
15:28:41 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
15:29:17 <Zakim> +Arnaud
15:30:48 <sandro> topic: Test suites for Trig, N-Triples, N-Quads
15:30:56 <sandro> gavin: They exist, linked from drafts
15:30:57 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/
15:31:10 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2013/TrigTests/
15:31:30 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2013/N-TriplesTests/
15:31:36 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2013/N-TriplesTests/  http://www.w3.org/2013/N-QuadsTests/
15:31:42 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2013/N-QuadsTests/
15:31:47 <AndyS> all exist (I just checked!)
15:32:06 <AndyS> Some say "under development"
15:32:25 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:32:38 <AndyS> Says:  "Draft.  The test suite is under development at ..."
15:33:12 <Zakim> +PatH
15:33:20 <PatH> Sorry Im late.
15:33:35 <sandro> sandro: So I should change them to say:   the test suites are _here_
15:33:41 <sandro> guus: did we resolve to accept them?
15:33:44 <sandro> andy: I believe so
15:33:49 <sandro> topic: Semantic Test Suite
15:34:09 <AndyS> picky - include a hg commit id in URL, not "default"
15:34:14 <pfps>  sandro's action is to set up a landing page for Semantics
15:34:22 <sandro> sandro: I didn't set up the landing page for that yet.  Unclear what we're saying about it.
15:35:03 <sandro> pfps: Tests from last time have all been caried forward and should all be correct.
15:35:29 <sandro> .. AZ proposed some new tests, and they're in the test suite
15:35:38 <sandro> .. I looked at all tests and believe they're correct
15:35:51 <sandro> .. but the manifest pointed at the wrong files, so I fixed those
15:36:16 <sandro> .. Conformance Clause Missing
15:36:37 <PatH> SOme of the tests are fine, a few seem too obscure.
15:36:40 <sandro> sandro: What about AZ's tests being too difficult?
15:37:01 <sandro> pfps: SOME of AZ's tests are non-exceptional, they talk about things like the new ways ill-formed literals are treated.
15:37:04 <AZ> q+
15:37:23 <sandro> guus: Assuming we're going to CR next week, how's our test suite for that?
15:37:26 <pfps> some of AZs test are for the new datatypes
15:37:35 <sandro> Publication in 2 week
15:37:58 <PatH> AZ on queue?
15:37:59 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
15:37:59 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
15:39:00 <sandro> az: Just thinking maybe the Conformance might be parameterized by the ER the reasoner claims to support.     An "RDF Entailment" reason, then doesn't need to pass RDFS tests.
15:39:24 <sandro> .. if you don't support xsd:nonPositiveInteger then you don't have to pass those tests.
15:39:43 <sandro> sandro: I think that's the general direction to go
15:39:52 <markus> notes that RDF Semantics doesn't define any conformance classes/products...
15:40:25 <PatH> We apparently need to combine conformance language and completeness language in a nice way. BUt this is rather delicate.
15:40:55 <sandro> sandro: Awkward that we don't say anything about conformance in rdf-mt
15:41:35 <pfps> I have to leave sometime after noon
15:41:37 <sandro> guus: any objection to going to :15 ?
15:41:53 <sandro> sandro: I thought that was our schedule.
15:41:56 <sandro> topic: Process
15:43:27 <markus> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.10.16#CR_transition_process_for_Concepts_.2B_Semantics_.2B_TriG_.2B_N-Triples_.2B_N-Quads
15:43:33 <Guus> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.10.16#CR_transition_process_for_Concepts_.2B_Semantics_.2B_TriG_.2B_N-Triples_.2B_N-Quads
15:43:49 <sandro> guus: (reads timeline from agenda)
15:44:51 <sandro> guus: Key thing -- EDITORS get drafts available before next telecon!
15:45:01 <sandro> guus: With all editorial changes made
15:45:45 <pfps> the ack could be in an ack section at the end if necessary
15:46:11 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/mid/45B205A4-6704-4F50-B0B6-A197B894D4CD@3roundstones.com respec issue
15:46:55 <markus> respec stuff: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Sep/0052.html
15:47:09 <sandro> pfps: for semantics, all the necessary edits have been done .....  except for one msg waiting from David Booth
15:47:10 <davidwood> markus, thanks.
15:47:40 <sandro> guus: trig?
15:48:47 <sandro> sandro: We're thinking we'll do a CR of Trig in sync with the other docs
15:49:03 <sandro> guus: pfps pat - need a Changes section
15:49:05 <sandro> pfps: Done
15:49:11 <sandro> davidwood: Done for Concepts
15:49:56 <sandro> guus: And N-Triples and N-Quads?
15:49:59 <sandro> gavi: Yep.
15:50:40 <sandro> gavin: I'm promising to have CR drafts available for next Tuesday, and have all comments address.   (Even if paul groth's comment isn't exactly about TriG)
15:50:43 <ivan> q+
15:50:53 <sandro> guus: Can everyone live with this timeline?
15:50:58 <PatH> Seems OK to me.
15:51:01 <ivan> ack ivan
15:51:01 <sandro> q- az
15:51:07 <Guus> ack AZ
15:51:11 <Guus> ack ivan
15:51:36 <sandro> ivan: 7th of november absolute latest date, but 5th would be better.
15:51:58 <sandro> sandro: Sounds like it all works, if nthing gets bumped.
15:52:07 <sandro> PLANNED PUBLICATION DATE: 5 NOVEMBER.
15:52:23 <sandro> guus: Next week -- CR Exit Criteria.
15:52:40 <sandro> sandro: No peter next week, lets do it now.
15:53:25 <sandro> sandro: We should be able to find two people who want to pass any good test
15:54:12 <sandro> sandro: pfps are you passing all the tests you think should be approved tests
15:54:18 <sandro> pfps: not nearly, since they're not OWL DL
15:54:59 <sandro> pat: people/software
15:55:56 <sandro> sandro: Anyone know about bglimm's interest in this?
15:56:38 <sandro> sandro: ANything in Jena?
15:57:31 <sandro> PROPOSED: CR Exit for Semantic will be to have at least two implementations passing each approve test.
15:57:51 <sandro> +1
15:57:58 <Guus> +1
15:58:07 <yvesr> +1
15:58:17 <ivan> q+
15:58:25 <AZ> +1
15:58:31 <sandro> sandro: And you don't run the tests that don't apply to your kind of reasoner
15:59:06 <gavinc> +1
16:00:05 <sandro> ivan:We could leave out the 2004 tests?
16:00:08 <Arnaud> +1
16:00:17 <sandro> pfps: It's a burden if you're running them by hand.
16:00:55 <sandro> PROPOSED: CR Exit for Semantics will be to have at least two implementations passing each approved new (RDF 1.1 only) test.
16:01:01 <davidwood> +1
16:01:02 <ivan> +1
16:01:03 <sandro> +1
16:01:04 <Arnaud> +1
16:01:05 <AndyS> +1
16:01:06 <AZ> +1
16:01:15 <sandro> RESOLVED: CR Exit for Semantics will be to have at least two implementations passing each approved new (RDF 1.1 only) test.
16:01:17 <Arnaud> sorry, I've got to drop
16:01:27 <Zakim> -Arnaud
16:01:46 <ivan> +1 to sandro
16:02:03 <sandro> PROPOSED: CR of 3 weeks (the minimum)
16:02:08 <ivan> +1
16:02:09 <sandro> +1
16:02:12 <Guus> +1
16:02:14 <PatH> +1
16:02:19 <sandro> RESOLVED: CR of 3 weeks (the minimum)
16:02:25 <AZ> +1
16:03:01 <sandro> guus: I'll be producing draft transition request, and ask for checks from all editors.
16:03:10 <sandro> topic: JSON-LD
16:03:26 <sandro> markus: Resolve features AT RISK for JSON-LD.
16:04:29 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON-LD_Features_at_Risk
16:05:34 <sandro> sandro has left #rdf-wg
16:06:09 <sandro> sandro has joined #rdf-wg
16:06:18 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Oct/0167.html
16:08:40 <sandro> markus: On Promises the proposal is to make API non-normative and reference (copy of) git hub page -- assuming Director is okay with this process.
16:08:49 <sandro> markus: Any disagreement on any of those?
16:09:02 <gavinc> -0.5 to ignoring URL spec for URLs
16:09:02 <sandro> guus: Any discussion?
16:09:55 <markus> zakim, who is making noise?
16:10:06 <Zakim> markus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AZ (9%), Sandro (70%), David_Wood (14%)
16:10:14 <davidwood> Zakim, mute me
16:10:15 <Zakim> David_Wood should now be muted
16:10:24 <sandro> PROPOSED: To handle Promised depency, we make the json-ls-api be non-normative.  We do not believe this needs another Last Call, given the AT RISK flag and the comments recieved.
16:10:32 <Zakim> -yvesr
16:10:42 <sandro> PROPOSED: To handle Promises dependency, we make the json-ls-api be non-normative.  We do not believe this needs another Last Call, given the AT RISK flag and the comments recieved.
16:10:46 <sandro> +1
16:11:01 <ivan> +1
16:11:02 <davidwood> +1
16:11:02 <TallTed> +1
16:11:02 <Guus> +1
16:11:06 <markus> +1
16:11:07 <PatH> +0
16:11:14 <gavinc> +1
16:11:36 <sandro> RESOLVED: To handle Promises dependency, we make the json-ls-api be non-normative.  We do not believe this needs another Last Call, given the AT RISK flag and the comments received.
16:11:41 <sandro> PROPOSED: Resolve all AT RISK flags in JSON-LD documents as per recommendation of JSON LD Task Force, shown in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Oct/0167.html
16:11:47 <davidwood> +1
16:11:50 <PatH> +0
16:11:51 <Guus> +1
16:11:53 <markus> +1
16:11:53 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:11:54 <sandro> +1
16:12:09 <PatH> Oh what the hell +1
16:12:10 <ivan> +1
16:12:13 <TallTed> +1
16:12:18 <gavinc> -0
16:12:29 <sandro> RESOLVED: Resolve all AT RISK flags in JSON-LD documents as per recommendation of JSON LD Task Force, shown in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Oct/0167.html
16:13:21 <Arnaud> hmm
16:13:30 <Arnaud> I just got another timeout
16:14:54 <ivan> q+
16:15:17 <sandro> guus: We'll plan to request PR for json-ld next week, with publication on 5 November
16:15:36 <Zakim> -pfps
16:16:24 <sandro> ADJOURN!
16:17:18 <davidwood> Thanks, everyone.
16:17:25 <PatH> Bye
16:17:26 <Zakim> -EricP
16:17:30 <Zakim> -PatH
16:17:31 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:17:33 <Zakim> -TallTed
16:17:34 <Zakim> -David_Wood
16:17:36 <Zakim> -AZ
16:17:39 <Zakim> -markus
16:17:40 <sandro> guus: Next time --  we'll talk about Primer (lots of progress), Schema, and do the other decisions we talked about
16:17:40 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:17:45 <Zakim> -GavinC
16:17:58 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting
16:17:58 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:17:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Guus_Schreiber, pfps, AndyS, GavinC, yvesr, Sandro, EricP, Ivan, TallTed, AZ, markus, David_Wood, Arnaud, PatH
16:18:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:18:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/16-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
16:18:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:18:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items