15:01:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-wai-wcag-irc
15:01:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:01:29 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:31 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:01:31 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM already started
15:01:32 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:01:32 <trackbot> Date: 15 October 2013
15:01:47 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
15:01:53 <Zakim> +Sailesh_Panchang
15:02:01 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn
15:02:02 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #wai-wcag
15:02:14 <Zakim> +??P21
15:02:17 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P21 is Michael_Cooper
15:02:17 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper; got it
15:02:37 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Kathleen_Anderson
15:02:37 <Zakim> +Kathleen_Anderson; got it
15:02:48 <MichaelC> zakim, Microsoft is Cherie_Eckholm
15:02:48 <Zakim> +Cherie_Eckholm; got it
15:02:55 <korn> korn has joined #wai-wcag
15:02:59 <korn> Zakim, who is here?
15:02:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Kathleen_Anderson, Cherie_Eckholm, Kathy_Wahlbin, Sailesh_Panchang, Peter_Korn, Michael_Cooper
15:03:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see korn, Kathy, Zakim, RRSAgent, Joshue, MichaelC, trackbot
15:04:05 <Joshue108> Joshue108 has joined #wai-wcag
15:04:38 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
15:05:07 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:05:31 <SaileshP> SaileshP has joined #wai-wcag
15:06:09 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:16 <Joshue108> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
15:06:16 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:08:06 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
15:08:08 <David> David has joined #wai-wcag
15:08:26 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
15:08:50 <David> scribe:David
15:09:03 <Joshue108> agenda + https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131008comments/
15:09:11 <Joshue108> agenda + https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Techsreview15thOct2013/
15:11:17 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 1
15:11:17 <Zakim> agendum 1. "https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131008comments/" taken up [from Joshue108]
15:11:39 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Category:Techniques/HTML/Using-heading_tags_to_markup_row-header_cells_that_group_rows_in_a_data_table
15:12:01 <David> Topic: #8 headings in tables...
15:13:01 <David> Comments from steve and email list comments on this issue...
15:14:08 <David> Josh has a list of uri's and research..will get push back if using no data information in a table...
15:15:13 <Joshue108> HTML5 Spec advice on data tables:
15:15:17 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tabular-data.html#the-th-element
15:16:51 <David> Shailesh... feels that it works, and other blind users ... html5 does not allow headers to do non th header cells but html4 does...
15:19:45 <David> SP: In html5 headers attribute cnnot reference a TD, but can do it with TH, unlike HTML4... firefox now does not allow this  now...
15:19:59 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
15:19:59 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:20:28 <David> scope on TD in HTML5SP:
15:21:44 <David> SP: Reason to technique... large number of rows... heading markup helps break things up.
15:22:47 <David> SP: Developers don't like headers IDs... want to simplify...
15:23:50 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/IssueTableHeaders
15:23:51 <David> Joshue: Chair hat off... it is a hack...Table
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15:24:52 <David> q+
15:24:56 <Joshue108> ack David
15:25:20 <Joshue108> DMacD: Recently I find both SRs do well with multiple levels of headings.
15:25:32 <Joshue108> DMacD: They do fine without the headers and IDs.
15:25:49 <Joshue108> DMacD: JAWS and NVDA tend to get it right.
15:26:15 <Ryladog> NOTE: Minutes have not been recorded on WCAG WAI GL minutes web page since April 2013. Here: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/minutes-history.php
15:30:39 <David> leave this technique open
15:31:57 <David> Topic: HTML and XHTML Techniques - H63: Using the scope attribute to associate header cells and data cells in data tables - re-written Please give us your feedback on the following as a potential new technique.
15:33:57 <korn> korn has joined #wai-wcag
15:37:21 <Joshue108> +q
15:37:24 <Joshue108> ack me
15:38:50 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
15:39:03 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
15:39:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
15:39:58 <David> SP: Assistive technologies mess up table row headers... if you nagivate to column 1 then all the headers above are announced...
15:40:38 <Joshue108> DMacD: Sailesh are you saying explicitly using scope fixes this?
15:40:42 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
15:40:52 <Joshue108> SP:Yes
15:41:33 <Joshue108> +q
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15:41:55 <Joshue108> ack me
15:42:18 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131008comments/results
15:42:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:42:25 <Joshue108>  H63: Using the scope attribute to associate header cells and data cells in data tables - re-written
15:42:31 <kerstin> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:42:31 <Zakim> +kerstin; got it
15:42:45 <kerstin> zakim, mute me
15:42:45 <Zakim> kerstin should now be muted
15:43:02 <David> Talkikng about item number 9 on survey... h63 scope use... need to add scope... manages user experience
15:44:17 <David> SP proposed modification... should explicitly use scope for row and columns... helps avoid screen readers
15:49:06 <Joshue108> HTML and XHTML Techniques - H51: Using table markup to present tabular information - amendment
15:49:13 <David> Resolution: leave open... Sailesh put up examples with and without scope come back to this
15:51:24 <Ryladog> I do not like requiring scope - I like it as an option, as well as the Header/ID - this is too well established to let it die b/c some are not supporting
15:52:02 <David> Soluton: leave open... Shailesh dropped from call
15:52:02 <Joshue108> General Techniques - Including and playing dialogue only subtitles encoded in the closed caption stream of video
15:53:36 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
15:53:36 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:54:38 <David> ACTION: Josh to provide feedback to Andre B.
15:54:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-222 - Provide feedback to andre b. [on Joshue O Connor - due 2013-10-22].
15:58:17 <David> Michael: willing to bend to consensus... don't know how useful it is... it probably works but
15:58:35 <Joshue108> ack Sail
15:59:59 <David> James: seems consensus is that it can be done but not the best way to do it.
16:00:19 <David> Add to editors call agenda
16:00:42 <David> RESOLUTION: leave open to discuss on editors cal
16:00:49 <Joshue108> HTML and XHTML Techniques - Using table row grouping to associate data cells with header cells in data tables
16:00:52 <David> s/cal/call
16:03:11 <Joshue108> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2-techs/2012Jan/0001.html
16:04:12 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
16:04:30 <kerstin> +1 for quoting David on that
16:04:35 <David> Yes...
16:04:45 <Joshue108> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-tbody-element
16:05:41 <David> DavidMacD. we would rather people use their accessibility budgets doing things that fix accessibility, rather than things that look good for people looking at the code
16:07:41 <David> ACTION: Cathy to provide looking at row group and colgroup in html5
16:07:41 <trackbot> Error finding 'Cathy'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/users>.
16:08:04 <David> ACTION: Kathy to provide looking at row group and colgroup in html5
16:08:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-223 - Provide looking at row group and colgroup in html5 [on Kathleen Wahlbin - due 2013-10-22].
16:08:28 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 2
16:08:28 <Zakim> agendum 2. "https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Techsreview15thOct2013/" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:09:16 <Joshue108> . Update to Identifying valid range information with the aria-valuemin and aria-valuemax properties
16:09:54 <David> Josh: looks like people want to remove it...
16:09:59 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/ARIA3:_Identifying_valid_range_information_with_the_aria-valuemin_and_aria-valuemax_properties
16:10:25 <David> James: Browsers expose it but AT does nothing
16:11:24 <David> Josh: can we park it maybe work on it later if AT supports increases?
16:12:23 <David> James: test has problems... because
16:12:41 <David> user agents shouldn't infor the user... should be AT to do that
16:13:38 <David> James: if you can fix it on the fly... do so... michael?
16:16:54 <David> RESOLUTION: remove ARIA3: Identifying valid range information with the aria-valuemin and aria-valuemax properties park it for edits until needed...not a priority... due to lack of AT support
16:19:21 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_name_regions_and_landmarks
16:20:18 <David> q+
16:20:31 <Joshue108> +q
16:20:37 <Joshue108> ack da
16:21:06 <marcjohlic> From another Landmark technique we have:  "Landmark roles (or "landmarks") programmatically identify sections of a page. Landmarks help assistive technology (AT) users orient themselves to a page and help them navigate easily to various sections of a page. "
16:21:32 <Zakim> -Cherie_Eckholm
16:21:37 <Joshue108> -q
16:24:22 <David> Cathy: Change example one to a NAV that has more than one, nd this is distinguishing them
16:27:29 <MichaelC> regrets+ Alan_Smith
16:27:57 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
16:27:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
16:28:30 <MichaelC> regrets+ Andrew_Kirkpatrick
16:28:36 <MichaelC> chair: Joshue_O_Connor
16:29:34 <David> RESOLUTION: accept as amended  http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_name_regions_and_landmarks
16:30:10 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:30:19 <Zakim> -Peter_Korn
16:30:21 <kerstin> bye
16:30:22 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
16:30:23 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
16:30:23 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:30:24 <korn> korn has left #wai-wcag
16:30:24 <Zakim> -Kathleen_Anderson
16:30:24 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
16:30:26 <Zakim> -kerstin
16:30:31 <David> Zakim, list attendees if everyone has not left
16:30:31 <Zakim> I don't understand 'list attendees if everyone has not left', David
16:30:45 <David> zakim, bye
16:30:45 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.910.278.aaaa, Kathy_Wahlbin, Sailesh_Panchang, Peter_Korn, Michael_Cooper, Kathleen_Anderson, Cherie_Eckholm, David_MacDonald,
16:30:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
16:30:49 <Zakim> ... Katie_Haritos-Shea, Joshue, Marc_Johlic, James_Nurthen, kerstin
16:30:57 <David> rrsagent, make log public
16:31:11 <David> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/15-wai-wcag-minutes.html David
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