14:59:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcls
14:59:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/09-hcls-irc
14:59:51 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile
14:59:51 <Zakim> sorry, ericP, I don't know what conference this is
14:59:57 <ericP> Zakim, this is hcls
14:59:57 <Zakim> ok, ericP; that matches SW_HCLS(LODD)10:00AM
14:59:59 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile
14:59:59 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
15:00:01 <Zakim> +EricP
15:00:04 <Mike_> Mike_ has joined #HCLS
15:00:27 <ericP> Zakim, who is here?
15:00:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.617.500.aaaa, EricP (muted)
15:00:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see Mike_, RRSAgent, Zakim, JoshMandel, TallTed, egonw_, ericP
15:00:37 <JoshMandel> Zakim, I'm the AAAA
15:00:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I'm the AAAA', JoshMandel
15:00:52 <ericP> roger that
15:01:03 <JoshMandel> Zakim, how does one associate one's dial-in number with one's nick?
15:01:03 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, JoshMandel.
15:01:16 <Zakim> +EricP.a
15:01:17 <JoshMandel> Zakim, well fine. Eric will tell you what you need to know.
15:01:17 <Zakim> I don't understand you, JoshMandel
15:01:29 <ericP> Zakim, who is here?
15:01:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.617.500.aaaa, EricP (muted), EricP.a
15:01:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see Mike_, RRSAgent, Zakim, JoshMandel, TallTed, egonw_, ericP
15:01:37 <Zakim> -EricP
15:01:45 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect EricP
15:01:46 <Zakim> EricP.a is being disconnected
15:01:46 <Zakim> -EricP.a
15:01:50 <ericP> weak!
15:01:56 <Zakim> + +1.631.757.aabb
15:02:06 <Zakim> +EricP
15:02:38 <JoshMandel> Zakim, I'm aaaa
15:02:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I'm aaaa', JoshMandel
15:02:50 <JoshMandel> Zakim, I'm AAAA
15:02:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I'm AAAA', JoshMandel
15:02:56 <ericP> Zakim, aaaa is JoshMandel
15:02:56 <Zakim> +JoshMandel; got it
15:03:52 <ericP> Zakim, who is here?
15:03:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see JoshMandel, +1.631.757.aabb, EricP
15:03:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see Mike_, RRSAgent, Zakim, JoshMandel, TallTed, egonw_, ericP
15:04:10 <ericP> Zakim, aabb is Mike_
15:04:10 <Zakim> +Mike_; got it
15:04:40 <Zakim> + +1.858.395.aacc
15:05:31 <ericP> Zakim, aacc is emory
15:05:31 <Zakim> +emory; got it
15:09:09 <JoshMandel> http://64.87.15.66:8888/download?ontology=7f97ec52-bb73-44c3-adb7-a655cf8a4550&revision=1
15:10:19 <Zakim> -JoshMandel
15:10:22 <Zakim> + +1.415.592.aadd
15:10:30 <ericP> Zakim, aadd is JoshMandel
15:10:30 <Zakim> +JoshMandel; got it
15:10:51 <JoshMandel> Zakim, who is here?
15:10:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_, EricP, emory, JoshMandel
15:10:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see Mike_, RRSAgent, Zakim, JoshMandel, TallTed, egonw_, ericP
15:11:00 <JoshMandel> Zakim, JoshMandel is aadd
15:11:01 <Zakim> +aadd; got it
15:25:36 <ericP> topic: FHIR HL7 interactions
15:25:53 <ericP> JoshMandel: re: FHIR resource creation
15:26:40 <ericP> ... modelers work in excel, props in column a, cardinality in B, desc in C, "rdfs:range" in D
15:27:09 <ericP> ... they generate all the docs from the excel
15:27:51 <ericP> .... if we can generate some way RDF adds value, e.g. detecting inconsistencies, we can persuade them to play
15:30:45 <ericP> ericP: original hope was that we'd be able to use the RDF representation to detect overlaps or inconsistencies between resrouces
15:31:13 <ericP> JoshMandel: i think that they're largely human-readable, when present
15:31:27 <ericP> ericP: i thought they were XPaths over RIM/ITS
15:31:44 <ericP> JoshMandel: that may have been true for lloyd's original set
15:32:38 <ericP> ... they've committed to human-readable by draft standard
15:33:01 <ericP> ericP: we like RDF 'cause of the ease of integration. is that a persuasive story?
15:33:33 <ericP> emory: a visual rep allows me as a medical domain expert to define and create representations of the world
15:34:22 <ericP> ... i've tried to communicate my domain expertise in UML etc.
15:34:28 <ericP> ... largely too verbose
15:34:50 <ericP> ... this [SemWeb tools like WebProtege] works better for me
15:35:28 <ericP> ... like the HL7 FHIR XML pipeline, i can create models which translate to javacode etc.
15:36:29 <ericP> JoshMandel: one of OpenEHR's core goals is to enable clinicians to participate in the modeling
15:36:57 <ericP> emory: i looked at it years ago. since then, DOD has driven me to be HL7-centric
15:37:24 <ericP> ... that said, having so many models is testimony to the fact that we don't have an adequate interface for rule authoring
15:37:51 <ericP> JoshMandel: you expect FHIR mapped to plain java objects, over which you execute the rules?
15:38:54 <ericP> emory: Virtual Medical Record (HL7 CDS WG) intended to support rule authoring but there are few commodity tools which handle nested rules
15:39:25 <ericP> ... most of the rule engines key on a hash of the attribues
15:39:59 <ericP> JoshMandel: so those attributes are flattened out on the subclasses
15:41:11 <ericP> emory: OpenCDS, the VMR tool for CDS, initially compiles by flattening the rules 'cause OpenCDS can't handle the inheritance in a performant level
15:41:59 <ericP> ... so there are perfromance issues around hierarchies, and issues around retractions
15:42:31 <ericP> ... when you assert a deeply-nested object, it becomes difficult to get the performance of the Redi algorithm
15:43:08 <ericP> JoshMandel: my guess is that FHIR takes nested VMR objects and references them instead of embedding them
15:44:07 <ericP> emory: my guys are much happier with FHIR; easier to follow a link than to traverse a tree.
15:44:40 <ericP> ... the other advantage of FHIR is the organization of attributes is more intuitive.
15:44:55 <ericP> ... most clinicians have no idea what a mood is.
15:46:06 <ericP> ericP: would those clinicians object to duplication between a prescription and an injection?
15:46:18 <ericP> emory: yes, that fits their cognitive models.
15:46:55 <ericP> ... RIM designed to be a class model but has difficulty capturing workflow state
15:47:19 <ericP> ... e.g. desribing in RIM the state changes associated with a substance administration
15:48:03 <ericP> ericP: is the problem that it tries?
15:48:33 <ericP> emory: yes, i argued that VMR should just be a state object. workflow should be separate
15:52:44 <ericP> ... in net, i agree that we want to feed the ontology to the FHIR toolchain
15:54:14 <JoshMandel> http://gforge.hl7.org/gf/project/fhir/scmsvn/?action=browse&path=%2Ftrunk%2Fbuild%2Fsource%2F
15:55:18 <ericP> JoshMandel: each resource defn has a dir which has a examples in XML, value sets, intros, model defintions, etc.
15:56:12 <ericP> ... the build tool reads the examples, parses them into java domain objects, and serializes them as XML and JSON
15:57:27 <ericP> ... the build tool generates the XML and JSON serializers
16:03:03 <ericP> topic: extensibility
16:03:25 <ericP> JoshMandel: pulling an extension into the core means the intance data has to change
16:03:42 <ericP> ... there is a principled distinciton between the core and the extensions
16:06:09 <ericP> Mike_: we've been speaking of the design-time advantages
16:06:46 <ericP> ... re: run time benefits, we can use SPARQL 1.1 federation
16:07:17 <egonw_> egonw_ has joined #HCLS
16:10:04 <ericP> next meeting: Tuesdays 15 Oct 11a US Eastern
16:10:24 <Zakim> -aadd
16:10:25 <Zakim> -emory
16:10:27 <Zakim> -Mike_
16:10:37 <Zakim> -EricP
16:10:39 <Zakim> SW_HCLS(LODD)10:00AM has ended
16:10:39 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.617.500.aaaa, EricP, +1.631.757.aabb, Mike_, +1.858.395.aacc, emory, +1.415.592.aadd, aadd
16:32:26 <egonw_> egonw_ has joined #HCLS
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