15:41:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:41:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-css-irc
15:41:48 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:41:49 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
15:41:49 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #css
15:41:53 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:47:01 <jet> jet has joined #css
15:54:20 <dael> dael has joined #css
15:55:09 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:16 <Zakim> +dauwhe
15:55:54 <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aaaa
15:56:04 <dael> zakim, aaaa is me
15:56:04 <Zakim> +dael; got it
15:56:42 <Zakim> +Stearns
15:57:12 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
15:57:20 <Zakim> +??P37
15:57:25 <glazou> Zakim, ??P37 is me
15:57:25 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:57:58 <krit1> krit1 has joined #css
15:58:09 <Zakim> + +49.341.263.2.aabb
15:58:18 <glazou> Zakim, aabb is krit
15:58:18 <Zakim> +krit; got it
15:58:25 <krit1> thanks
15:58:27 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:58:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see dauwhe, dael, Stearns, glazou, krit
15:59:13 <florian> florian has joined #css
15:59:44 <israelh> israelh has joined #CSS
15:59:46 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
15:59:48 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
15:59:53 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:05 <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
16:00:05 <Zakim> +florian; got it
16:00:29 <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aacc
16:00:47 <michou> michou has joined #css
16:00:50 <Zakim> + +1.425.216.aadd
16:00:54 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
16:00:55 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
16:00:57 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaee
16:01:02 <dael> ScribeNick: dael
16:01:03 <rhauck> Zakim, aaee is me
16:01:03 <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
16:01:20 <Zakim> + +34.93.192.aaff
16:01:24 <antonp> Zakim, aaff is me
16:01:26 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:01:32 <glazou> Zakim, aadd is israelh
16:01:33 <Zakim> +israelh; got it
16:01:43 <Ms2ger> Ms2ger has joined #css
16:01:44 <glazou> Zakim, aacc is hober
16:01:44 <Zakim> +hober; got it
16:02:05 <bradk> bradk has left #css
16:02:08 <Zakim> +[Adobe]
16:02:41 <glazou> Zakim, [Adobe] has michou
16:02:44 <Zakim> +michou; got it
16:03:07 <Zakim> + +1.520.280.aagg
16:03:21 <glazou> Zakim, aagg is bkardell
16:03:21 <Zakim> +bkardell; got it
16:03:31 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:03:47 <Zakim> +??P53
16:03:52 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P53 is me
16:03:52 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:03:58 <BradK_> BradK_ has joined #CSS
16:04:28 <glazou> Regrets: plinss, Bert, zcorpan , leaverou , glenn
16:04:41 <Zakim> +BradK
16:05:19 <koji> koji has joined #css
16:05:28 <dael> glazou: Let's get started
16:05:38 <Zakim> -bkardell
16:05:40 <dael> glazou: as usual, additions to adgenda?
16:05:47 <dael> glazou: I saw one from Simon about elements
16:06:00 <dael> glazou: One from Dirk
16:06:03 <dael> glazou: Correct?
16:06:04 <Zakim> +bkardell
16:06:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:06:09 <dael> glazou: Anything else?
16:06:13 <koji> zakim, [ipcaller.a] is me
16:06:13 <Zakim> +koji; got it
16:06:15 <SimonSapin> s/elements/referring to elements/
16:06:19 <Zakim> -bkardell
16:06:30 <dael> glazou: We could have a short meeting without a lot on the radar
16:06:36 <dael> glazou: is Hakon on?
16:06:49 <dael> ???: I don't think he said he'd be here so we should take it next time
16:06:57 <SimonSapin> s/???/florian/
16:06:58 <bkardell> sorry I am in an area with spotty cell signal, keep losing call
16:07:04 <bkardell> I will follow via irc
16:07:15 <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aahh
16:07:21 <dael> glazou: Well, we decided not to discuss without the editor and so I'm not willing to discuss w/o Hakon
16:07:38 <sgalineau> sgalineau has joined #css
16:07:41 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:07:47 <dael> ??: There's not much to discuss about GCPM so we could resolve for a WD
16:07:52 <dael> glazou: we did in F2F
16:07:58 <dael> glazou: just waiting for the doc to be ready
16:08:08 <dael> florian: If it's done we can greenlight Hakon
16:08:13 <stearns> s/??/stearns/
16:08:14 <SimonSapin> s/??/astearns/ (… I think)
16:08:24 <dael> glazou: remember, members decided to decide only if editor here
16:08:28 <sgalineau> sgalineau has joined #css
16:08:46 <dael> astearns: It's not complecated, so we should be okay without.  If it's complecated we need the author
16:08:50 <dael> glazou: I agree.
16:08:57 <stearns> s/astearns/florian/
16:09:02 <dael> glazou: Do people who made comments want to block?
16:09:02 <stearns> (for the last comment)
16:09:09 <dael> dkramer: I'm okay
16:09:23 <dauwhe> s/dkramer/dauwhe
16:09:34 <dael> SimonSapin: I made comments, but I don't think are blocking WD
16:09:36 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #css
16:09:46 <dael> glazou: any object with pub?
16:10:08 <dael> resolved: New WD of GCPM
16:10:22 <cabanier> cabanier has joined #css
16:10:23 <dael> glazou: Given PageFloats discussion, I suggest we wait
16:10:28 <dael> Topic: DOMMatrix, DOMPoint and DOMPointLiteral
16:10:50 <dael> Krit: I'd like to publish a new WD
16:11:00 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #css
16:11:00 <dael> krit: we combine into Geometry API
16:11:08 <dael> krit: Me and Rik as co-editors
16:11:13 <dael> krit: WG agree?
16:11:20 <dael> glazou: No objection about co-editors
16:11:31 <dael> glazou: I'd like to head about publishing new ED
16:11:36 <dael> s/WD/ED
16:11:51 <dael> glazou: I don't think you need permission for ED
16:11:54 <dael> krit: Ok
16:11:54 <SimonSapin> krit1: just ED at this point
16:12:09 <dael> glazou: Any object about co-editors?
16:12:12 <dael> [silence]
16:12:24 <dael> RESOLVED: krit and Rik as co-editors
16:12:29 <dael> Topic: Shapes
16:12:39 <dael> astearns: I asked for comments, there's on remaining
16:12:52 <dael> astearns: one comment left about basic shape functions
16:13:06 <MaRakow> MaRakow has joined #CSS
16:13:06 <dael> astears: I'd like to work through syntax and ask for LC next week
16:13:15 <dael> glazou: Is this in refenece to Hakons?
16:13:30 <dael> astearns: No, Tab and fantasai about taking commas out of functionsal notations
16:13:51 <dael> astearns: also about if we need two about cicles when we have radial gradients
16:14:01 <dael> ...:waiting to hear if would work for rectangle and polygon
16:14:07 <dael> glazou: So defer to next week
16:14:12 <dael> Topic: Elements
16:14:13 <BradK_> Regarding GCPM, I hope more people can review this idea (not to block publication of working draft): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0086.html
16:14:14 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:14:17 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
16:14:24 <dael> glazou: Can you paste URL?
16:14:25 <bkardell> ? is there any good simple rule for when to comma/not?
16:14:40 <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0043.html
16:14:57 <stearns> bkardell: there's a link to a principles wiki in fantasai's message (and one of my responses)
16:14:58 <dael> SimonSapin: We have two features that refer to elements
16:14:58 <bkardell> not from a parser perspective but just in general
16:15:04 <dael> SimonSapin: This is elements in images 4
16:15:12 <dael> SimonSapin: And cross referenceing in GCPM
16:15:23 <bkardell> stearns: thx - sorry, a little behind list
16:15:25 <dael> SimonSapin: Elements use an ID selector, GCPM uses a URL
16:15:37 <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-gcpm/#cross-references
16:15:52 <dael> SimonSapin: This is two mech. to do same thing, we should pick on
16:15:57 <dael> s/on/one
16:15:59 <fantasai> This has been an open issue for a while
16:16:15 <dael> glazou: I understand wy URL in GCPM, b/c book can be a set of docs
16:16:24 <tantek> krit1 - however the element/id selector thing may affect nav-* properties which are in CSS3-UI
16:16:32 <dael> SimonSapin: URL can ref. to other documents, Hakon seems OK to not do that
16:16:49 <dael> SimonSapin: The thing with URLs, we need to defice how fragment mapped to element
16:16:49 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:17:00 <dael> SimonSapin: This isn't same as HTML
16:17:07 <MaRakow> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:17:07 <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
16:17:10 <dael> SimonSapin: We need to deinfe or refer to something that defines
16:17:15 <dauwhe> s/defice/define
16:17:25 <dael> glazou: There's a prevision that the name shares same value space
16:17:30 <dauwhe> s/deinfe/define
16:17:31 <Zakim> +Tantek
16:17:34 <dael> glazou: All browsers should do the same for most recent HTML
16:17:58 <dael> glazou: In practice when you use frag. idnt in URL it ref. to one element if it's a name or arbitay element
16:18:11 <dael> SimonSapin: And that's HTML?
16:18:13 <dael> glazou: Yes
16:18:24 <dael> SimonSapin: Dow e want them to depend on HTML?
16:18:33 <dael> SimonSapin: Or do we need a def. that works for any doc type?
16:18:43 <dael> glazou: I'm not sure I understand
16:18:48 <tantek> krit1 - nav-* directional properties are implemented with test cases per the thread on www-style
16:18:58 <dael> glazou: Frag. idnt points to one titem
16:19:11 <dael> SimonSapin: As far as I know CSS can work on anyithing inc. HTML
16:19:18 <dael> SimonSapin: Are we fine with changing that?
16:19:26 <tantek> q+ to note that nav-* directional properties use just "#id" as value
16:19:33 <dael> glazou: What the spec again that def. frag. idnt?
16:19:41 <dael> glazou: Outside of CSS?
16:19:55 <dael> glazou: Tere's a doc in the consortium space making the relationship
16:20:04 <dael> SimonSapin: That's what I'm missing
16:20:21 <dael> glazou: Since there's a potential solution w/o changing specs, we should keep this to the ML
16:20:25 <dael> SimonSapin: That's fine
16:20:41 <dael> tantek: Sorry to make more complex, there's a 3rd method is CSS UI
16:20:51 <dael> tantek: Similar to element, but no element function
16:21:03 <dael> tantek: up, down, etc all take values similar to hash ID
16:21:13 <dael> tantek: Not only that, we have test cases and two impl.
16:21:29 <dael> tantek: I thought I should point it out, but I don't have strong feeling on syntax
16:21:40 <dael> tantek: But we should keep that in mind
16:22:18 <dael> tantek: There's real world content using it
16:22:25 <dael> SimonSapin: Is that in terms with selectors?
16:22:34 <dael> ???: Compeltely inline
16:22:49 <dael> glazou: I guess question is is hash a frag. ident?
16:22:54 <florian> The <id> value consists of a ‘#’ character followed by an identifier, similar to a fragment identifier in a URL. It indicates the element to which the focus is navigated to in response to directional navigation input respective to the specific property.
16:22:59 <dael> ???: The wording right now is frag. URL
16:23:06 <glazou> s/???/tantek
16:23:06 <dael> ???: It's weak wording
16:23:17 <fantasai> If it was thought of as a url, it probably would have used url()
16:23:22 <fantasai> with some limitations in prose
16:23:26 <dael> glazou: So.
16:23:33 <dael> tantek: It's imilar to frag. ID in URL
16:23:44 <dael> tantek: Explanitory, not normative text
16:23:55 <dael> ???: Is there a test to see which is used?
16:23:57 <dael> SimonSapin: Yes
16:24:15 <glazou> s/???/tantek
16:24:19 <dael> tantek: If you did that test with Nav and checked in impl.
16:24:29 <dael> SimonSapin: Opera impl, not sure other
16:24:41 <florian> s/SimonSapin/florian/
16:24:45 <dael> tantek: Sounds like you could construct test with name and nav in Opera and see what happens
16:24:58 <florian> Note that it is the old opera that supports that
16:25:01 <dael> glazou: We have 2 using fragments, and 1 selector
16:25:06 <dael> tantek: We're not sure
16:25:16 <dael> tantek: If impl treat it like a selector we're okay
16:25:21 <dael> SimonSapin: It's a bit undefined
16:25:29 <dael> tantek: I can define it like the impl.
16:25:38 <dael> glazou: So take back to L and wait for reports on test
16:25:44 <florian> old opera = presto
16:25:46 <dael> glazou: Okay SimonSapin, Tantek
16:25:49 <dael> both: yes
16:26:00 <tantek> q-
16:26:02 <dael> Topic: Taskforce
16:26:17 <dael> dschultz: We agreed to meet in Seattle same time as SVG
16:26:29 <dael> ...:meet together on Wed?
16:26:36 <dael> glazou: I think it would be useful
16:26:40 <dael> glazou: Yes
16:26:48 <tantek> zakim, mute tantek
16:26:48 <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
16:26:49 <dael> glazou: Not the whole day, btu a few hours
16:26:53 <dael> glazou: Any other comments?
16:27:10 <dael> glazou: That was a light adgenda and we exausted it
16:27:19 <dael> ???: I won't be at next F2F
16:27:26 <dael> glazou: Me neither
16:27:26 <florian> s/???/florian
16:27:27 <darktears> darktears has joined #css
16:27:40 <dael> dbaron: Any update on Sunday mtg?
16:27:46 <dael> glazou: I didn't hear back
16:27:47 <jerenkrantz> jerenkrantz has joined #css
16:27:59 <dael> glazou: You saw forum, it's complex to contact hotel
16:28:10 <dael> glazou: Not sure if we have a room, haven't heard a single word
16:28:15 <rhauck> registration is also open for TestTWF for TPAC attendees
16:28:21 <dael> dbaron: We're getting to where we need airline
16:28:31 <dbaron> I'm not on the call, so that's not me talking
16:28:42 <glazou> s/dbaron/SteveZ
16:28:43 <florian> s/dbaron/SteveZ/
16:28:44 <dael> ACTION: glazou, ping Bert to see if have reservation
16:28:44 <trackbot> Error finding 'glazou,'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
16:29:05 <jet> jet has joined #css
16:29:07 <dael> ACTION: glazou ping Bert to see if have reservation
16:29:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-585 - Ping bert to see if have reservation [on Daniel Glazman - due 2013-10-09].
16:29:10 <rhauck> if you are planning on coming to TestTWF and haven't gotten your TPAC registration code, please contact me
16:29:20 <dael> glazou: Anything else?
16:29:24 <Zakim> -hober
16:29:25 <dael> glazou: Thanks everyone
16:29:27 <Zakim> -[Adobe]
16:29:28 <Zakim> - +1.206.675.aahh
16:29:28 <Zakim> -antonp
16:29:29 <Zakim> -dauwhe
16:29:29 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:29:30 <dael> zakim, who is here?
16:29:30 <Zakim> -BradK
16:29:30 <Zakim> -krit
16:29:30 <Zakim> -rhauck
16:29:30 <Zakim> -glazou
16:29:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, Stearns, [IPcaller], israelh, SimonSapin, koji, fantasai, MaRakow, Tantek (muted)
16:29:30 <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
16:29:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see jet, jerenkrantz, darktears, oyvind, tantek, MaRakow, cabanier, sgalineau, koji, BradK_, Ms2ger, dbaron, antonp, michou, rhauck, SteveZ, israelh, florian, krit1, dael,
16:29:31 <Zakim> ... RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dauwhe, lmclister, teoli, glenn, plh, slightlyoff
16:29:31 <Zakim> -Stearns
16:29:31 <Zakim> -israelh
16:29:31 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:29:36 <Zakim> -koji
16:29:36 <Zakim> -fantasai
16:29:36 <Zakim> -Tantek
16:29:37 <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aaii
16:29:39 <Zakim> -dael
16:29:39 <florian> florian has left #css
16:29:40 <Zakim> -MaRakow
16:29:51 <dael> [Meeting ended]
16:29:53 <Zakim> - +1.212.318.aaii
16:29:59 <MaRakow> MaRakow has left #css
16:30:00 <SimonSapin> rhauck: where is that registration?
16:30:02 <jerenkrantz> wow.  guess i missed the short meeting.  =)
16:30:11 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
16:30:11 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:30:11 <Zakim> Attendees were dauwhe, +1.610.324.aaaa, dael, Stearns, glazou, +49.341.263.2.aabb, krit, florian, +1.619.846.aacc, +1.425.216.aadd, +1.415.832.aaee, rhauck, +34.93.192.aaff,
16:30:11 <Zakim> ... antonp, israelh, hober, michou, +1.520.280.aagg, bkardell, SteveZ, SimonSapin, BradK, [IPcaller], koji, +1.206.675.aahh, fantasai, MaRakow, Tantek, +1.212.318.aaii
16:30:16 <rhauck> SimonSapin: i'll respond to your mail shortly
16:30:22 <SimonSapin> ok
16:30:51 <Ms2ger> A half-hour meeting? Could have fixed some CSS2.1 issues :)
16:31:08 <tantek> Ms2ger - anything that needed telcon discussion in particular? ;)
16:31:23 <glazou> Ms2ger, if nobody calls for it and we have none of the 2.1 experts on the call, no
16:31:39 <fantasai> This is what happens when I'm not around, I guess. ;)
16:32:09 <jet> fantasai: we're lurker club :)
16:32:36 <Ms2ger> fantasai, that's an interesting way of not being around you're practicing there :)
16:33:28 <fantasai> aside from the shapes review comments, which I promised Alan, I haven't been around between midnight last Monday and now
16:35:15 <Ms2ger> Good :)
16:35:40 <glazou> fantasai, not you only, many people
16:36:43 <stearns> fantasai: thanks for the comments and today's response. I think I agree, so rest up a bit while I sell the change to my team and make the edits
16:38:36 <krit1> stearns: … sell for a high price I hope
16:39:32 <stearns> krit1: you're one of the people I need to convince. What do you think of matching gradient arguments?
16:41:15 <fantasai> :)
16:42:40 <glazou> krit1, ping
16:44:05 <glazou> krit1, PING
16:44:31 <glazou> let me try ;-p
16:44:57 <glazou> I could probably set my IRC client to play a sound if capital PING is thrown
16:44:58 <krit1> glazou: PONG?
16:45:08 <glazou> krit1, I misunderstood your request today
16:45:13 <glazou> you asked for a new ED
16:45:18 <krit1> yes
16:45:21 <glazou> and that does indeed require WG approval
16:45:26 <glazou> I was mistaken, sorry for that
16:45:40 <krit1> so do we need to take it up next week again?
16:45:41 <glazou> so let me correct things by email and ask if there is any objection
16:45:47 <krit1> ok
16:45:51 <glazou> if there is no objection, we'll consider resolved
16:45:54 <glazou> ok for you?
16:46:05 <krit1> glazou: yes, that is fine for me
16:46:21 <glazou> thanks krit1 and sorry for the mishmash
16:46:29 <glazou> and thanks sgalineau for the heads up
16:46:40 <krit1> fantasai: stearns: you are not seriously suggesting another gradient like syntax, are you?
16:47:18 <stearns> stearns: not gradient-like, exactly the same arguments to make a circle with a gradient as a basic shape
16:47:37 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/mid/524C47E3.7020905@inkedblade.net
16:47:49 <krit1> stearns: ahhhh
16:47:55 <stearns> krit1: so circle( <size> [ at <position> ]? )
16:48:28 <krit1> stearns: people already have problems to remember the syntax on gradients,
16:48:35 <krit1> stearns: why torture them more?
16:48:50 <stearns> krit1: isn't adding yet another syntax more torture?
16:49:14 <krit1> fantasai: sorry, but especially rectangle( <size> [ at <position> ]? ) looks a lot worst
16:49:33 <krit1> stearns: isn't that we are discussing right now?
16:49:40 <krit1> stearns: adding yet another syntax?
16:50:07 <stearns> no, same syntax in a different function
16:50:07 <krit1> <size> at <position>? I doubt that anyone understands this decision
16:50:21 <SimonSapin> tantek: do you have a link to the css-ui tests?
16:50:22 <fantasai> anyone who uses gradients will already need to know it
16:50:26 <krit1> people usually start with position and add the size
16:50:45 <krit1> fantasai: but that is the point, isn't it? people are complaining about the gradient syntax
16:51:12 <krit1> fantasai: I think I stated multiple times before, but this was one of the worst syntax decision we made
16:51:19 <krit1> (well actually without me)
16:52:05 <glazou> krit1, email sent to w3c-css-wg
16:52:14 <krit1> glazou: thanks!
16:54:02 <fantasai> krit1: Size is optional, will default to 100%, so you can start with that if you want
16:54:11 <fantasai> s/that/the position/
16:54:47 <krit1> rectangle(at <position> <size>)?
16:54:49 <fantasai> krit1: I think long sets of arbitrarily-ordered arguments are difficult, personally,
16:54:59 <krit1> fantasai: this is wasting time on typing
16:55:41 <krit1> fantasai: if you write a lot of code, you will appreciate every char that you don't need to type
16:55:45 <michou> plinss: ping? :)
16:55:53 <krit1> fantasai: ditto for the transfer of the data
16:55:57 <fantasai> krit1: which is why more optional arguments is better
16:56:04 <plinss> pong
16:56:29 <fantasai> krit1: previously you'd have to specify position in order to make a centered circle
16:56:36 <fantasai> most people wnat their circle centered, so why specify the position?
16:56:40 <fantasai> just specify the size
16:56:41 <fantasai> etc.
16:56:47 <fantasai> with the gradient syntax, all parts are optional
16:57:37 <fantasai> more function words to type may be more annoying than shorter syntaxes, but having to give default arguments explicitly is worse
16:57:41 <krit1> fantasai: then circle(r, cx, cy) or without commas, but adding another unnecessary keyword just to annoy authors?
16:58:00 <fantasai> two commas = one two-letter word :)
16:58:16 <krit1> yeah, so remove the commas, no problem with that
16:58:17 <fantasai> consistency with gradients is worth it
16:58:28 <stearns> (for those who like gradients) :)
16:58:38 <fantasai> for anyone who wants to learn CSS
16:58:45 <krit1> fantasai: it would have been worth it if gradient was following everyone else (as it was i the first place)
16:58:58 <fantasai> gradient syntax was inscrutable in the first place, that's why we changed it
16:59:41 <krit1> fantasai: without improvement… not web author remembers how to create a gradient (which is not just 2 color stops from top to bottom)
16:59:56 <krit1> fantasai: most people use generators nowadays… so where do you learn cSS?
17:00:04 <Ms2ger> What's CSS?
17:00:15 <fantasai> linear-gradient(color1, color2) ?
17:00:16 <krit1> Ms2ger: something that gets replaced by Canvas
17:00:17 <fantasai> how is that hard
17:00:33 <krit1> to quote my comment: (which is not just 2 color stops from top to bottom)
17:00:37 <stearns> I personally am not a fan of the gradient syntax, but I am a fan of consistency
17:00:56 <krit1> stearns: so just follow transforms?
17:01:05 <fantasai> transforms doesn't have shapes
17:01:11 <krit1> stearns: everyone understands how to use translate
17:01:26 <krit1> stearns: or transform-origin even if it does not have an 'at'
17:01:44 <krit1> fantasai: transforms does have functions and that is what we are discussing
17:03:12 <krit1> (I could have lived without commas on these functions though)
17:04:28 <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/functional-notation#transforms was the idea for transforms...
17:04:32 <fantasai> we didn't change them due to compat
17:05:17 <fantasai> koji: I'll work on the character / grapheme cluster thing today
17:05:48 <fantasai> koji: I just need to come up with some appropriate wordsmithing.
17:06:43 <krit1> fantasai: and I would have objected to the propposal for matrix and matrix3d
17:07:18 <fantasai> why? why do you want to have 16 values representing a 4x4 matrix with nothing to help you keep count of which item in which row?
17:07:32 <fantasai> it's impossible to read
17:11:40 <glazou> I am not a fan of the gradients syntax either ; painful to deal with in my editor
17:11:47 <SimonSapin> I’m trying to come up with a test case, but… how do I even use nav-up and friends?
17:13:52 <krit1> fantasai: the grouping doesn't make sense, or say the chosen group doesn't
17:14:01 <glazou> SimonSapin, buy a google tv :-p
17:14:15 <krit1> fantasai: beside that matrix3d itself was a mistake IMO
17:14:34 <SimonSapin> I’m told opera presto is supposed to support these
17:14:38 <glazou> yes
17:14:46 <glazou> implemented it ages ago
17:17:50 <SimonSapin> but not on desktop?
17:18:04 <glazou> no idea, ask florian or howcome ?
17:19:13 <SimonSapin> glazou, did we talk about a test suite for CSS-UI during the call? It seems to be "None yet"
17:19:53 <glazou> don't remember sorry
17:20:07 <glazou> tantek's on IRC, qsk him directly
17:20:12 <glazou> grrr en-US kbd
17:20:14 <glazou> ask
17:21:14 <SimonSapin> tantek: ?
17:21:50 <oyvind> http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/opera/submitted/css3-ui/
17:22:01 <glazou> ah! thanks oyvind
17:22:26 <tantek> yes, thanks oyvind!
17:22:34 <oyvind> no problem
17:23:00 <oyvind> I haven't tried those myself, but "directional navigation" on presto desktop is shift+arrow
17:28:28 <tantek> SimonSapin - we don't have a test suite for CSS3-UI yet, though we have a bunch of tests (including the Opera submission above)
17:28:38 <tantek> much of the properties are tested briefly in the spec itself
17:28:52 <SimonSapin> thanks oyvind, shift+arrow is what I was missing
17:29:20 <SimonSapin> so it appears to be ID selectors, at least in Presto
17:29:36 <glazou> does not surprise me
17:29:37 <SimonSapin> <a id=foo> it targeted but not <a name=foo>
17:29:55 <TabAtkins> I suspect that anyone who dislikes the gradient syntax holds in their head some idealized simple syntax that only does simple things, and chooses not to remember just how horrible and unreadable the syntax was when we tried to do everything without the hinting keywords.
17:30:15 <glazou> I never said the syntax was way better before :-)
17:30:27 <glazou> and I never said a nicer syntax isn't pure utopu
17:30:31 <glazou> utopy even
17:31:48 <tantek> SimonSapin, is there existing specific "ID selectors" wording details that I can add to CSS3-UI?
17:32:27 <tantek> the intent in CSS3-UI was to support id=foo but not name=foo, so this is a good confirmation
17:32:32 <SimonSapin> tantek: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-images-4/#element-notation
17:32:44 <SimonSapin> tantek: "like URL fragment" is misleading, then
17:32:59 <SimonSapin> I’ll write to www-style
17:33:21 <glazou> dinner time here, bye people
17:34:12 <SimonSapin> tantek: Images 4 says "ID selector [SELECT]", which is effectively the same as '#' + ident
17:34:15 <SimonSapin> in terms of syntax
17:34:44 <SimonSapin> but selectors also define matched elements, so that’s easiest
17:36:15 <SimonSapin> tantek: "It indicates the first element (in tree order) that matches the selector.", and maybe define as well what happens where there is no such element
17:36:28 <tantek> SimonSapin, agreed, re: "like URL fragment" is misleading
17:37:07 <tantek> and yes - your additional suggestions make sense too
17:39:59 <tantek> SimonSapin, FYI I'm tracking CSS3-UI issues here: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui
17:40:15 <tantek> e.g. just added this: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-28
17:41:04 <tantek> it sounds like you have additional proposed prose edits to nav-* directional navigation properties 9.2.2 - I'll wait for you to write those up and then we can capture that as Issue 29.
17:59:46 <tantek> SimonSapin, thanks for writing this up: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0096.html
18:00:16 <tantek> one typo I think, you wrote: "This one doesn’t indicating that Presto’s implementation indeed is closer to ID selectors than URL fragments."
18:00:24 <SimonSapin> tantek: also writing up a suggested edit
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18:01:09 <tantek> but I think you meant: "This one does indicate that Presto’s implementation indeed is closer to ID selectors than URL fragments."
18:01:21 <tantek> thanks much!
18:02:04 <SimonSapin> missing a comma
18:02:35 <tantek> oh! or a period
18:04:17 <SimonSapin> all sent to www-style
18:07:28 <SimonSapin> the point is that <a name=foo> does *not* work with nav-right
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18:46:39 <tantek> SimonSapin - looks good. have captured it here: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-29
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21:39:03 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: what’s idref?
21:39:18 <SimonSapin> I should ask that on the list
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