15:37:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:37:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/25-css-irc
15:37:44 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:37:45 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
15:37:48 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:53:47 <dael> dael has joined #css
15:54:19 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:54:21 <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aaaa
15:54:37 <dael> zakim, aaaa is me
15:54:37 <Zakim> +dael; got it
15:55:03 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
15:55:21 <Zakim> +??P8
15:55:22 <Zakim> -??P8
15:55:23 <Zakim> +??P8
15:55:34 <jerenkrantz> jerenkrantz has joined #css
15:55:36 <glazou> Zakim, code?
15:55:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
15:55:44 <Zakim> +??P9
15:55:53 <glazou> Zakim, mute me
15:55:53 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:55:59 <glazou> Zakim, ??P9 is me
15:55:59 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:56:03 <glazou> Zakim, mute me
15:56:03 <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
15:56:09 <Zakim> -glazou
15:56:16 <glazou> wow, super strong noise
15:56:19 <krit> krit has joined #css
15:56:30 <Zakim> +??P9
15:56:35 <florian> florian has joined #css
15:56:41 <dael> I'm hearing it too, even after I muted
15:56:47 <glazou> me too
15:56:52 <glazou> dael, before I joined too ?
15:57:05 <glazou> let me know if it continues after I log off
15:57:08 <dael> glazou, yes, before you joined
15:57:09 <Zakim> -??P9
15:57:12 <jerenkrantz> Zakim, who is noisy?
15:57:13 <glazou> still ongoing ?
15:57:16 <dael> still ongoing
15:57:19 <glazou> sigh
15:57:23 <Zakim> jerenkrantz, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P8 (40%)
15:57:31 <glazou> Zakim, mute ?P8
15:57:31 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ?P8
15:57:39 <glazou> zakim, mute ??P8
15:57:39 <Zakim> ??P8 should now be muted
15:57:43 <glazou> better ?
15:57:46 <dael> better!
15:57:57 <Zakim> +Plh
15:58:11 <glazou> woooof
15:58:12 <Zakim> +??P26
15:58:16 <glazou> Zakim, ??P26 is me
15:58:16 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:58:23 <krit1> krit1 has joined #css
15:58:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:58:36 <Zakim> + +49.341.263.2.aabb
15:58:43 <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
15:58:43 <Zakim> +florian; got it
15:58:48 <arronei_> arronei_ has joined #css
15:58:59 <krit1> Zakim, aabb is me
15:58:59 <Zakim> +krit1; got it
15:59:07 <glazou> ScribeNick: dael
15:59:08 <Zakim> +Stearns
15:59:30 <glazou> so I have no idea who is ??P8
16:00:04 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #css
16:00:21 <Zakim> +??P37
16:00:22 <jdaggett> jdaggett has joined #css
16:00:31 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P37 is me
16:00:31 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:00:32 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:00:32 <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aacc
16:00:35 <sgalineau> sgalineau has joined #css
16:00:43 <jerenkrantz> Zakim, aacc is me
16:00:43 <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
16:00:44 <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aadd
16:00:51 <Zakim> +SylvaIng
16:01:04 <Zakim> +plinss
16:01:19 <c_palmer> c_palmer has joined #css
16:01:20 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:01:32 <koji> koji has joined #css
16:01:35 <Zakim> + +93192aaee
16:01:37 <Zakim> +Bert
16:01:39 <antonp> Zakim, aaee is me
16:01:39 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:01:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:01:58 <glazou> Regrets: smft, leif
16:02:05 <jdaggett> zakim, ipcaller.a is me
16:02:06 <glazou> Regrets: bkardell
16:02:06 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
16:02:07 <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
16:02:30 <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aaff
16:02:44 <Zakim> +dauwhe
16:03:28 <Zakim> +jerenkrantz.a
16:03:37 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
16:03:40 <Zakim> +??P57
16:03:47 <glazou> Zakim, mute jerenkrantz.a
16:03:47 <Zakim> jerenkrantz.a should now be muted
16:03:49 <koji> zakim, ??p57 is me
16:03:50 <Zakim> +koji; got it
16:04:01 <jerenkrantz> wasn't me...likely a coworker.  =)
16:04:12 <michou1> michou1 has joined #css
16:04:16 <sgalineau> <c-span style="css">
16:04:18 <jdaggett> wow, *what* was that...
16:04:19 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aagg
16:04:31 <rhauck> Zakim, aagg is me
16:04:31 <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
16:04:35 <glazou> waiting for you ChrisL
16:04:42 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:04:54 <Zakim> + +1.425.301.aahh
16:05:02 <c_palmer> Zakim, jerenkrantz.a is me
16:05:02 <Zakim> +c_palmer; got it
16:05:04 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
16:05:11 <Zakim> +[Adobe]
16:05:11 <c_palmer> apologies if that was my phone
16:05:36 <dael> glazou: First thing, Dae starts scribing today
16:05:39 <stearns> woohoo!
16:05:48 <dael> glazou: Thank you dael, don't hestitate to stop us
16:05:54 <michou1> Zakim: [Adobe] is me
16:06:01 <dael> glazou: if dael needs names corrected, don't hesitate to do that
16:06:16 <dael> TabAtkins: if you need to scribe someone you don't know, just put three questionmarks
16:06:36 <dael> glazou: If you don't know a term, ask a speaker to clarify
16:06:44 <Zakim> + +33.6.03.00.aaii
16:06:51 <dael> glazou: 2nd, i won't make it to shenzhen, plinss will chair
16:07:01 <dael> glazou: any additions to the adgenda?
16:07:09 <dael> glazou: ChrisL are you there?
16:07:11 <dael> ChrisL: yes
16:07:22 <michou1> Zakim [Adobe] is me
16:07:23 <dael> glazou: first is for you [break in minutes]
16:08:24 <plh> q+
16:09:45 <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aajj
16:09:57 <glazou> ack plh
16:12:35 <MaRakow> MaRakow has joined #CSS
16:14:30 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:14:43 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #css
16:15:07 <dael> [minutes resume]
16:15:18 <dael> Topic: Compositing and Blending Level 1
16:15:53 <dael> syl: We agreeed today is when we move to last call, sorry I only sent the reminder yesterday.  We can move it to next week if needed
16:16:09 <dael> sylvaing: david provided some feedback, haven't heard from anyone else
16:16:28 <dael> ChrisL: there had beed some other issues about compositing, but might need level 2 sooner
16:16:34 <glazou> s/beed/been
16:16:36 <dael> sylvaing: seems reasonable
16:16:49 <dael> ChrisL: I might have some comments, but I'll mail them in, I don't want to delay
16:16:53 <dael> sylvaing: sure
16:17:08 <hober> Zakim, aajj is me
16:17:08 <Zakim> +hober; got it
16:17:25 <dael> ..? I like what the spec doesn't, but I don't feel confident to provide meaningful feedback
16:17:31 <dael> glazou: any objection?
16:17:33 <glazou> s/..?/florian
16:17:53 <florian> s/the spec doesn't/the spec does/
16:17:53 <MaRakow> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:17:53 <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
16:17:57 <dael> glazou: no objection, people agree to publsh
16:18:05 <dael> RESOLVED: Publish spec
16:18:24 <dael> RESOLVED: Publish spec as LC
16:18:34 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0284.html
16:18:40 <dael> Topic: Publish GCPM
16:18:44 <ChrisL> s/spec/compositing and blending/
16:18:47 <sgalineau> RESOLVED: publish CSS Compositing & Blending Level 1 as LC
16:19:03 <dael> ...? This was from F2F, we had decided to split.  This is the GCPM that we split and page flow
16:19:11 <glazou> s/..?/howcome
16:19:16 <dael> ...? the page flow was considered complex enough to warrent own specification
16:19:33 <dael> howcome: I think this is warrented.  There are two new URLs that I sent in an e-mail
16:19:48 <dael> howcome: I haven't changed anything in functionality, it's splitting what we agreed to
16:20:00 <dino> dino has joined #css
16:20:01 <dael> howcome: there will be changes, but getting WD is important so it doesn't hang
16:20:13 <dael> ChrisL: The action you had to split and you've done it.
16:20:31 <Zakim> + +1.408.881.aakk
16:20:38 <dael> glazou: You sent your e-mail not too long ago, I had enough time to review, I agree to publis GCPM WD, another week to review floats
16:20:44 <dael> howcome: We can give both one week for review
16:20:53 <dael> glazou: Fine.  Other options?
16:21:00 <glazou> s/options/opinions
16:21:13 <dael> howcome: That's perfect.  I have an issue because I have changes I'd like, but I've held back to avoid rounds of editing
16:21:21 <dael> howcome: I'D RATHER GET THEM OUT
16:21:26 <dael> ChrisL: Sounds good
16:21:30 <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: I sent some comments on ml, but nothing blocking publication
16:21:32 <dael> glazou: Everyone agrees?
16:21:43 <Rossen_> Rossen_ has joined #css
16:21:45 <dael> glazou: We'll make a descision next week
16:21:56 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Sep/0515.html
16:21:58 <dael> ACTION: everyone, review GCPM
16:21:58 <trackbot> Error finding 'everyone,'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
16:22:10 <dael> Topic: Overfow: Clip
16:22:16 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:22:19 <Zakim> -jdaggett
16:22:28 <glazou> ACTION: all, review GCPM an Page Floats
16:22:28 <trackbot> Error finding 'all,'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
16:22:29 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:22:31 <dael> TabAtkins: The title is wrong b/c had poste to coworkers
16:22:41 <israelh> israelh has joined #CSS
16:22:47 <dael> TabAtkins: one o the things we've been trying to do is find ways to denote bounderies
16:23:02 <dael> TabAtkins: so we can do as much independant as possible
16:23:24 <dael> TabAtkins: This is my proposal for overflow: clip so none of the children of the clipped elements can flow outside.
16:24:10 <antonp> s/flow/paint/
16:24:11 <dael> TabAtkins: more important, it's so children can't paint outside clipped element
16:24:23 <dbaron> TabAtkins: it would be a containing block for position:fixed and position:absolute
16:24:24 <dael> TabAtkins: lets us more agressively work outside compositing
16:24:36 <dael> TabAtkins: there's a few other bits that let us not worry
16:24:46 <dael> TabAtkins: competely shuts down scrolling
16:24:57 <dael> TabAtkins: we think this would end up helpings with optimization
16:25:12 <dael> TabAtkins: authors can opt-in and layout is independant of outside doc
16:25:20 <dael> TabAtkins: should I persue?
16:25:25 <tantek> yes
16:25:39 <dael> ChrisL: You just want to clip inside the box so i you have fliters or drop shadow this can go with that
16:25:55 <dael> TabAtkins: so the elements own filters can extend past
16:26:02 <dael> glazou: so the main effect is on scrolling
16:26:04 <tantek> basically this is like overflow:hidden but a ban on any kind of scrolling, programmatic or otherwise.
16:26:15 <dael> TabAtkins: correct.  we can be agressive about clipping whats on screen
16:26:34 <dael> ...?we might have to work for detecting but scrolling seems necessary
16:26:38 <glazou> s/ChrisL/krit
16:26:45 <glazou> s/..?/florian
16:26:49 <SimonSapin> s/...?/florian: /
16:26:59 <dael> TabAtkins: even the abspo part is impt. because authors can use so we prefer a gar. fast pass
16:27:10 <dael> TabAtkins: we don't like having mysterious connections fall down
16:27:24 <dael> TabAtkins: this is how wemake it explicit that they can't do things to increase speed
16:27:35 <dael> ...?
16:27:43 <dael> TabAtkins: in so far as...it still does
16:27:59 <stearns> s/?/krit: this only works when you know the size?/
16:28:17 <dael> TabAtkins: you have to be fixed hight to a certain extent.  even if you're autoheight, being able to agressively clip still worthwhile
16:28:28 <dael> TabAtkins: this gives you a ben. in unconstrained cases
16:28:40 <tantek> agreed - even auto-height is very useful to clip without scrolling
16:28:45 <dael> krit: I agree with you from my Opera experience
16:28:54 <antonp> s/krit/florian/
16:28:58 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
16:29:18 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dael (20%), dino (60%)
16:29:27 <glazou> dael, florian has french accent, krit has german one :-)
16:29:30 <dael> florian: I agree with the problem and I think this would help.  I hesitate with this feature targeting this thing as usual but fast
16:29:37 <Zakim> -Plh
16:29:38 <glazou> Zakim, unmute dino
16:29:39 <Zakim> dino was not muted, glazou
16:29:42 <dino> zakim, mute dino
16:29:42 <Zakim> dino should now be muted
16:29:56 <dael> florian: This will do the same as things with fixed.  That bothers me a bit, but I don't have a better idea
16:30:01 <glazou> lol
16:30:06 <dael> ..? I would second with florian
16:30:10 <antonp> s/fixed/hidden/
16:30:13 <glazou> dino, bad UI on your iPhone ? ;-)
16:30:18 <Bert> q+ to say it sounds strange to have a feature that only serves implementers and doens't bring new functionality for designers.
16:30:19 <jet> jet has joined #css
16:30:19 <dael> ..? I also work on scrolling and to me this looks weird
16:30:34 <glazou> s/..?/rossen
16:30:41 <dael> ...? The first thing people will do is the start adding an overflow clip
16:30:48 <antonp> florian: for most users, the new value is the same as 'hidden' - that bothers me because it boils down to "do what you were doing before, but faster"
16:30:49 <glazou> s/..?/rossen
16:30:49 <dael> Rossen_: and everyone will try and use it
16:31:10 <dael> Rossen_: and this really concerns me in general.  adding features to help perf. is great
16:31:35 <dael> Rossen_: adding a feature that has almost no user benefit to existing behaviour so some impl. might take advantage
16:31:46 <dael> Rossen_: i think this is a little bit of a stretch
16:32:03 <dael> TabAtkins: if you were to add *overflow clip it would work, but break your page
16:32:14 <Zakim> - +47.21.65.aadd
16:32:15 <dael> TabAtkins: It would makes things faster, though
16:32:23 <dael> TabAtkins: I dont think this is specific to Blink.
16:32:35 <dael> TabAtkins: painting is expencive and being able to do less is a win for everyone
16:32:47 <dael> TabAtkins: there's nothing specific to our archetecture.
16:32:54 <dauwhe> s/expencive/expensive
16:32:54 <glazou> ack Bert
16:32:54 <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to say it sounds strange to have a feature that only serves implementers and doens't bring new functionality for designers.
16:33:03 <Bert> q-
16:33:04 <dael> Bert: everyone said my pieces
16:33:17 <dael> krit: the performance is in layout, not render
16:33:28 <Bert> s/everyone/Rossen/
16:33:46 <dael> TabAtkins: this isn't realtaed to layout.  There's no chance this will paint outside.
16:33:58 <glazou> s/realtaed/related
16:34:00 <dael> krit: this woldn't have a huge impact on performance
16:34:03 <antonp> TabAtkins: It's about painting, not layout
16:34:32 <dael> ...? some things are layout, some are painting, some are inbetween
16:34:34 <dauwhe> s/woldn't/wouldn't
16:34:37 <glazou> s/..?/florian
16:34:50 <dael> florian: you're not in layout.  You're not painting but perparing
16:34:59 <glazou> s/perparing/preparing
16:35:09 <dael> florian: I see the concerns expressed and agree
16:35:32 <dael> krit: to add to florian you're preparing layout while the paiting is waiting and that may not be true for archetecture
16:35:41 <glazou> s/krit/Rossen_
16:35:42 <antonp> s/krit/Rossen
16:35:52 <dael> TabAtkins: this is about bring able to agressively prune invalidation cycles
16:35:54 <dauwhe> s/paiting/painting
16:36:07 <dael> TabAtkins: and are on the page won't be painted over and this lets you be agressive
16:36:20 <Zakim> -rhauck
16:36:22 <dael> glazou: I think we're having two discussions
16:36:34 <dael> glazou: we haven't agreed to have this somewhere in the spec
16:36:52 <dael> glazou: I think that having the full technical discussion isn't worth our time if we don't have it in the spec
16:36:57 <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aall
16:37:16 <dael> krit: could you change this to similar to overflow: hidden so that it's used in conjunction
16:37:30 <stearns> s/krit/florian/
16:37:35 <dael> TabAtkins: the clipping and no scrolling are closely related so it could be done
16:37:48 <dael> TabAtkins: overflow: hidden isn't strong enough in either way
16:37:58 <antonp> florian: I'd prefer something that's orthogonal to overflow:hidden rather than which sort of replaces it
16:38:16 <antonp> florian: or better put, "complementary to overflow:hidden"
16:38:25 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:38:27 <dael> florian: If you find a way to do that you propose to combine with overflow: hidden, it's a better addition
16:38:53 <dael> ChrisL: I think one of the issues is that the authors will want to use this.
16:38:58 <glazou> s/ChrisL/antonp
16:39:06 <tantek> I disagree - that seems better from a programmer / feature independence perspective, but another property is more complex for the author
16:39:15 <dael> antonp: It becomes hard to educate how to make the decision.  It would be better if it wasn't orthagonal.
16:39:16 <tantek> the better/simpler solution is to just add a value to "overflow"
16:39:31 <tantek> that is, I disagree with what Florian was minuted as saying.
16:39:31 <dael> antonp: We need to be careful about how you teach web authors to use this so I agree with florian
16:39:51 <dael> glazou: I'm not sure the solution by florian is right.  It's a nice model conceptually
16:40:00 <dael> glazou: from a web author it's more complex
16:40:16 <dael> TabAtkins: while antonp is right there are still use cases for overflow: hidden
16:40:19 <tantek> what glazou said
16:40:25 <dael> TabAtkins: for most cases it's what you'd want
16:40:40 <dael> glazou: a lot of websites that are using hidden are using a work around
16:40:44 <dael> TabAtkins: ...missed
16:40:56 <tantek> it's small enough functionality that it's not worth denormalizing into separate property
16:41:02 <dael> TabAtkins: You're either overpainting in the expectation that there might be a scroll or your first scroll will be ugly
16:41:12 <dael> glazou: I don't wish to spend the hour on this
16:41:20 <dael> TabAtkins: let's continue on the e-mails
16:41:32 <dael> glazou: WG, do you agree to add this to  spec and which one?
16:41:36 <dbaron> dbaron^: I think you can probably optimize overflow:hidden on the assumption that there won't be scrolling and then deal with the iffy performance on the first scroll if it happens
16:41:48 <dael> florian: I'm not strongly objecting, but I'd like TabAtkins to have a new way
16:42:10 <dael> glazou: to which spec do we add it?
16:42:14 <dael> TabAtkins: we have an overflow spec
16:42:21 <sgalineau> GCPM!
16:42:23 <Zakim> - +1.832.797.aaff
16:42:26 <sgalineau> oh wait we don't have that anymore
16:42:27 <dael> TabAtkins: the other option is display.  or it is independant and placed later
16:42:34 <TabAtkins> Whoops, didn't mean to leave the room.
16:42:38 <dael> florian: I'd rather not display
16:42:49 <dael> ...? I'd prefer the last and we'll decide later
16:42:51 <florian> s/florian/ChrisL
16:42:57 <TabAtkins> mic
16:43:01 <dael> glazou: TabAtkins still there?
16:43:06 <emalasky> emalasky has joined #css
16:43:07 <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aamm
16:43:07 <Rossen_> s/.../Rossen
16:43:09 <glazou> TabAtkins, ok for new ED of new document?
16:43:11 <sgalineau> Tab is overflow:clipped
16:43:30 <dael> TabAtkins: I'm back
16:43:37 <dael> glazou: are you okay for new ED for new doc
16:43:39 <dael> TabAtkins: yes
16:43:43 <dael> glazou: any obj?
16:44:13 <dael> RESOLVED: TabAtkins to put overflow: clip to new ED
16:44:25 <glazou> Topic: DOMMatrix, DOMPoint and DOMPointLiteral
16:44:32 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0280.html
16:44:35 <krit1> http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-matrix-20130919/#attributes
16:44:46 <TabAtkins> Zaim, aamm is me
16:44:51 <TabAtkins> Zakim, aamm is me
16:44:51 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
16:44:52 <Zakim> -Stearns
16:44:54 <dael> krit: We had a discussion about the ... we use.
16:45:05 <dael> krit: there was discussion we should use float again
16:45:18 <dael> krit1: I restarted the discussion and it seemed no one objected to having double
16:45:19 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:45:24 <Zakim> - +1.425.301.aahh
16:45:33 <dael> TabAtkins: We're fine with doubles
16:45:47 <dael> glazou: and you're looking for agreement?
16:45:54 <dael> krit1: I'd like a resolution
16:46:01 <dael> glazou: thoughts?  no opinion?
16:46:07 <dael> glazou: no objections?
16:46:34 <dael> RESOLVED: Use Table instead of float for matrix items
16:46:39 <glazou> s/Table/doubles
16:46:43 <ChrisL> s/Table/double/
16:47:01 <dael> krit1: next is to discuss with SimonSapin
16:47:10 <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
16:47:10 <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
16:47:12 <dbaron> s/SimonSapin/zcorpan/
16:47:25 <dael> krit1: Is he on the call?
16:47:35 <krit1> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/matrix/#the-dompointliteral-dictionary
16:47:41 <dael> krit1: What i'd like to discuss is I've edited DOMpoint to the specification of DOMMatrix
16:47:53 <dael> krit1: What I'd liek to add is general geometric specifications
16:48:09 <dael> krit1: I'd like to join this with SVG WG to have geometric in one specifications
16:48:13 <dael> glazou: I support that
16:48:19 <dael> glazou: Other opinions?
16:48:30 <dael> glazou: none apperently
16:48:49 <dael> krit1: I'd also like to have zcorpan here.  So maybe next week
16:49:01 <dael> glazou: That's why I didn't call it resolved.  We'll wait for him
16:49:05 <dael> glazou: defer to next week
16:49:14 <dael> krit1: I'd like to move the other items to next week
16:49:16 <dael> glazou: fine.
16:49:30 <dael> Topic: BoxQuads
16:49:45 <glazou> s/BoxQuads/getBoxQuads
16:49:48 <dael> ...?: I'm not prepared to discuss
16:49:54 <dbaron> s/...?/dbaron/
16:49:55 <dael> glazou: let's go to the last item
16:50:00 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0281.html
16:50:02 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
16:50:02 <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
16:50:04 <dael> Topic: device-CMYK
16:50:14 <dael> TabAtkins: Discussion is good on mailing list, all parties aren't here.
16:50:23 <dael> TabAtkins: I'm confused so I want to spend the day working it out
16:50:30 <dael> ChrisL: What's going on is that for many years now
16:50:41 <dael> ChrisL: I've been trying to get normal industry standards on the web
16:50:53 <dael> ChrisL: originally it was in a print spec then it moved to a ... spec
16:51:00 <dael> ChrisL: then it got moved to SVG 2
16:51:10 <dael> ChrisL: then people said why just for SVG, why not HTML too
16:51:23 <dael> ChrisL: At Paris F2F we agree it would be part of CSS Color
16:51:39 <dael> ChrisL: that's great, but Rick started commenting on mailing list
16:51:48 <dael> ChrisL: his point was clear, no color management on the web
16:51:51 <dbaron> s/Rick/Rik/
16:52:03 <SimonSapin> q+
16:52:05 <dael> ChrisL: I'm not happy with it, we can have it in other places, but not HTML
16:52:12 <dael> ...? I don't think that's his position
16:52:17 <dael> ChrisL: I'm pleased it's not.
16:52:38 <dael> krit1: I think he's just concerned that it's extemely complex to impl
16:52:43 <dael> krit1: I think that's his concern
16:52:47 <dino> zakim, unmute me
16:52:47 <Zakim> dino should no longer be muted
16:52:52 <dael> ChrisL: You don't deal with that by saying tough luck
16:53:01 <dael> ChrisL: People should be able to do that
16:53:07 <dael> ...? please explain color management?
16:53:08 <florian> q+
16:53:13 <dino> q+
16:53:16 <glazou> ack SimonSapin
16:53:31 <dael> SimonSapin: I think part of the comfusion is that we have two different issues.  One is color management.  The othere is device CMYK
16:53:41 <dael> ChrisL: I get the different, people are comfusing them
16:53:53 <glazou> s/comfusion/confusion
16:54:06 <dael> ChrisL: We need device CMYK.  If you want to measure your printer we'll want 10% cyan etc.  You don't want color management near that
16:54:11 <dael> ChrisL: That's useful
16:54:32 <dael> ChrisL: It use to be everything was done that way, not RGB.  That's the old way which we've been away from.
16:54:36 <dbaron> I'm not sure that "testing a printer" is an important use case we need to address.
16:54:41 <dael> ChrisL: I don't want to go back to the 19802
16:54:54 <dael> ChrisL: Adobe would have been the last company I would have thought to object
16:54:56 <glazou> s/19802/1980s
16:55:14 <dael> ChrisL: They do solid color work.  I'm astonished.  I hope it's not the corp. position
16:55:23 <glazou> ack dino
16:55:53 <dael> dino: What did ChrisL mean by color management?  Is that spec. colors in a color space or entire doc or images w' color profile attached, etc
16:56:10 <dael> ChrisL: What I mean is you say what color you want, measure it, get some color on output
16:56:28 <dael> ChrisL: On the web responding to tagged images so they can be display correctly
16:56:41 <dael> ChrisL: and also so you can mesh things up and not restricted to RGB box
16:56:45 <dael> ChrisL: That's what I meant
16:57:10 <dael> ChrisL: It also means we have places with clipping if you use RGB.  If you instead use unbounded you don't have that issue
16:57:14 <dael> ChrisL: There are benefits to that
16:57:30 <dael> ChrisL: it's also more preception of space.  There's lots of reason.
16:57:40 <dael> ChrisL: It's to capture for display and share it with others
16:58:00 <dael> dino: What your saying is people use a picture, want to preserve colors as close as poss
16:58:02 <dael> ChrisL: yes
16:58:20 <dael> dino: One of the reasons we don't do this is performance.  Performance more imp. then acc. color mgmt
16:58:33 <dael> dino: Web it comes down to you plug in same color as on page
16:58:39 <dael> ChrisL: I wouldn't call that color mgmt
16:58:50 <dael> ChrisL: I'm not trying to force people, I'm trying to make an option
16:58:52 <glazou> ack florian
16:59:03 <dael> florian: a bit closer to spec we're trying to discuss
16:59:16 <dael> florian: yes, devie CMYK is useful, but not main thing people want
16:59:22 <dael> florian: what they want it real color mgmt
16:59:32 <dael> florian: therefore, giving them this tempts them to do something
16:59:39 <dael> ChrisL: that's what I wanted to say, thank you
16:59:55 <dael> ChrisL: That's why Hakon put this in the spec
17:00:11 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:00:18 <dael> florian: the 2nd thing is that the way i read it won't do what people want
17:00:34 <dael> TabAtkins: it always converts to RGB, but if browser knows it can use it
17:00:50 <dael> ...? this is for people who want their colors explicitily not to be managed
17:01:08 <dael> ...? if the author doesn't compose overlay we should leave it up to the browser.
17:01:17 <dael> glazou: We're past the hour
17:01:22 <dael> zakim, who is here?
17:01:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, ??P8 (muted), glazou, [IPcaller], krit1, SimonSapin, jerenkrantz, SylvaIng, plinss, dbaron, antonp, Bert, dauwhe, c_palmer (muted), koji, [Adobe], ChrisL,
17:01:25 <Zakim> ... hober, MaRakow, dino, +47.21.65.aall, TabAtkins, [Microsoft.a]
17:01:25 <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
17:01:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see emalasky, ChrisL, jet, Rossen_, dino, MaRakow, howcome, tantek, michou1, oyvind, koji, c_palmer, sgalineau, dauwhe, arronei_, krit1, florian, jerenkrantz, antonp,
17:01:25 <Zakim> ... dael, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dbaron, Ms2ger, liam, teoli, michou
17:01:32 <dael> glazou: con't on the mailing list
17:01:43 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
17:01:53 <Zakim> -hober
17:01:55 <Zakim> -jerenkrantz
17:01:56 <Zakim> -dino
17:02:01 <tantek> Bert, sounds worthy of a blog post. ;)
17:02:10 <dael> glazou: thank you!
17:02:11 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:02:13 <Zakim> -SylvaIng
17:02:13 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:02:14 <Zakim> - +47.21.65.aall
17:02:14 <Zakim> -[Adobe]
17:02:14 <Zakim> -glazou
17:02:14 <Zakim> -dauwhe
17:02:15 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:02:15 <Zakim> -c_palmer
17:02:15 <Zakim> -krit1
17:02:15 <Zakim> -antonp
17:02:17 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:02:17 <Zakim> -koji
17:02:17 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:02:18 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:02:19 <Zakim> -dael
17:02:22 <Zakim> -MaRakow
17:02:23 <Zakim> -plinss
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17:02:38 <Zakim> -??P8
17:03:02 <Zakim> -Bert
17:03:03 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:03:03 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.610.324.aaaa, dael, glazou, Plh, +49.341.263.2.aabb, florian, krit1, Stearns, SimonSapin, +1.212.318.aacc, jerenkrantz, +47.21.65.aadd, SylvaIng, plinss, dbaron,
17:03:03 <Zakim> ... +93192aaee, Bert, antonp, [IPcaller], jdaggett, +1.832.797.aaff, dauwhe, koji, +1.415.832.aagg, rhauck, +1.425.301.aahh, c_palmer, [Adobe], +33.6.03.00.aaii, ChrisL,
17:03:04 <Zakim> ... +1.619.846.aajj, hober, MaRakow, +1.408.881.aakk, dino, [Microsoft], +47.21.65.aall, +1.832.797.aamm, TabAtkins
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