14:59:03 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 14:59:03 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-wai-wcag-irc 14:59:21 zakim, this will be WCAG 14:59:21 ok, Joshue, I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM already started 14:59:30 Chair: Joshue 14:59:54 korn has joined #wai-wcag 15:00:18 agenda + 1) Review of Cognitive task force work statement 15:00:18 http://www.w3.org/2013/08/draft-cognitive-a11y-tf.html 15:00:31 + +1.650.506.aaaa 15:00:33 agenda + 2) Response to question from HTML accessibility TF 15:00:33 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/imageadvice/ 15:00:44 +[Microsoft] 15:00:45 agenda + 3) WCAG review of Techniques Task Force: ARIA techniques for 10 September 2013 15:00:45 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAGTechs20130910/ 15:00:57 agenda + 4) Mobile A11y and WCAG TF: Further Discussion 15:01:02 zakim, agenda? 15:01:02 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 15:01:03 1. 1) Review of Cognitive task force work statement [from Joshue] 15:01:03 2. 2) Response to question from HTML accessibility TF [from Joshue] 15:01:03 3. 3) WCAG review of Techniques Task Force: ARIA techniques for 10 September 2013 [from Joshue] 15:01:03 4. 4) Mobile A11y and WCAG TF: Further Discussion [from Joshue] 15:01:12 Kathy has joined #wai-wcag 15:01:18 + +1.978.261.aabb 15:01:31 - +1.978.261.aabb 15:02:05 + +1.978.443.aacc 15:02:19 Zakim, aaaa has Peter_Korn 15:02:19 +Peter_Korn; got it 15:02:23 zakim, Kathy is aacc 15:02:23 sorry, Kathy, I do not recognize a party named 'Kathy' 15:02:45 zakim, aacc is Kathy 15:02:45 +Kathy; got it 15:03:02 +David_MacDonald 15:03:07 Regrets + Loretta 15:03:24 marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag 15:04:51 +Marc_Johlic 15:05:12 David has joined #wai-wcag 15:05:14 -Marc_Johlic 15:05:25 + +1.703.861.aadd 15:05:47 +Marc_Johlic 15:05:53 Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag 15:06:11 Zakim, who is on the call? 15:06:11 On the phone I see [IPcaller], [Adobe], +1.650.506.aaaa, [Microsoft], Kathy, David_MacDonald, +1.703.861.aadd, Marc_Johlic 15:06:13 +1.650.506.aaaa has Peter_Korn 15:06:18 Zakim, Adobe is AWK 15:06:18 +AWK; got it 15:06:46 Zakim, Microsoft is Cherie 15:06:46 +Cherie; got it 15:07:26 scribe:david 15:07:27 zakim, take up item 1 15:07:27 agendum 1. "1) Review of Cognitive task force work statement" taken up [from Joshue] 15:07:48 SCRIBE: David 15:07:51 Zakim, aadd is Katie 15:07:51 +Katie; got it 15:07:56 http://www.w3.org/2013/08/draft-cognitive-a11y-tf.html**** 15:07:57 Zakim, who is on the call? 15:07:57 On the phone I see [IPcaller], AWK, +1.650.506.aaaa, Cherie, Kathy, David_MacDonald, Katie, Marc_Johlic 15:07:59 +1.650.506.aaaa has Peter_Korn 15:08:09 http://www.w3.org/2013/08/draft-cognitive-a11y-tf.html 15:08:39 typo: were vs. where in objective section 15:10:46 +[IPcaller.a] 15:11:12 PK: bulk of objective should it not be surveying and examining the space... obj. says developing guidelines, but none of the other sections talk about that... 15:11:13 Inn cognitive objective - "guidelines" is supposed to be removed. This TF is not producing Guidelines 15:11:19 kerstin has joined #wai-wcag 15:11:44 zakim, who is on line 15:11:44 I don't understand 'who is on line', kerstin 15:11:53 Zakim, a is Kerstin 15:11:53 +Kerstin; got it 15:12:01 Zakim, who is on the call? 15:12:01 On the phone I see [IPcaller], Kerstin, +1.650.506.aaaa, Cherie, Kathy, David_MacDonald, Katie, Marc_Johlic, [IPcaller.a] 15:12:03 +1.650.506.aaaa has Peter_Korn 15:12:37 q+ 15:12:47 ack awk 15:13:30 q+ 15:13:33 AWK: scope is more accurate ... objective should not include guidelines... 15:13:43 Ryladog_ has joined #wai-wcag 15:13:49 q+ 15:14:00 Josh: gap analysis is what it is about. 15:14:08 ack korn 15:14:44 PK: concerned about "Building a business case, identification of resistance, risks and opportunities. " sounds too political 15:14:48 ack Ryla 15:15:13 q+ 15:15:24 Peter, do you think that the whole bullet needs to be removed or just change "resistance" to "challenges"? 15:15:36 +q 15:15:47 ack korn 15:15:49 Katie: agree about political stuff... agree should not be about... important work just need clarity 15:16:14 +1 15:16:39 PK: like katie's comment about one thing helpful to some PWD may hurt others, we need to call this out... 15:16:49 zakim, queue? 15:16:49 I see Joshue on the speaker queue 15:17:10 PK: clarification of understanding document... good 15:17:15 AWK, I think it is best removed, but would would certainly entertain suggested edits. 15:17:20 q+ 15:17:40 PK wary of the word guidline, because similar to WCAG language on guidelines 15:18:01 David - I'm wary of the word "guidance", as it is simlar to "guideline" 15:18:24 Josh: agree on overlapping techniques, noting that, conflicts and common helpful things 15:18:25 -q 15:18:57 Katie: all techniques would fall under existing SCs, identifying soecific target group 15:19:08 +??P26 15:19:14 s/soecfic/specific 15:19:23 Katie - I would like to see language more like "may suggest changes/improvements and develop new techniques for EXISTING WCAG 2.0 SCs" 15:20:05 Katie: draw attention to help a disability vs, it being a distraction, spacing of text... 15:20:50 zakim, queue? 15:20:50 I see Ryladog_ on the speaker queue 15:20:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC 15:21:05 Perhaps to bullet "Gathering information on different related technologies and techniques." add "including where techniques in support of cognitive and learning disabled users may conflict with what is needed for other users" 15:21:58 q+ 15:22:02 rrsagent, make log world 15:22:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC 15:22:11 PK: tietac work Dr. Clayton Lewis pointed out that hiding complexity in UI, only showing menu optons as they get used is very helpful for some... but users who expect something to be in a particular order may find it difficult... 15:22:40 PK: need flexibility of design... but that is hard to test, and write a guideline for 15:23:46 ack ryla 15:23:47 PK: when do you know when to hide and show... can't test... is there a set of advices a level below a technique, non testable non conformable best practice advice, a level below AAA, that might be productive 15:23:51 Zakim, who is on the queue? 15:23:51 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:24:16 Katie: new phone, easy button, simplifies the UI... 15:25:06 q+ 15:25:15 ack korn 15:25:19 Katie: not as broad and scary ... just because something is difficult doesn't mean don't do it... let's just fix language.. 15:25:25 q+ 15:26:28 PK: clearly scope is... soping to exisitng sc, 15:26:31 q+ 15:26:35 ack Dav 15:26:55 Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag 15:27:18 q+ 15:27:24 q+ to say scope shouldn´t be limited to existing SC, because it´s part of exploration of potential new formal guidance, but any deliverables beyond use cases and roadmap would have to be careful in scope 15:27:31 +1 to David not allocating to AAA only 15:27:48 +1 from me also 15:28:05 Q+ 15:28:23 ack Michael 15:28:23 MichaelC, you wanted to say scope shouldn´t be limited to existing SC, because it´s part of exploration of potential new formal guidance, but any deliverables beyond use cases 15:28:27 ... and roadmap would have to be careful in scope 15:29:14 zakim, queue? 15:29:14 I see korn, AWK on the speaker queue 15:29:35 MC: shouldn't limit to existing SC, because we are looking at future versions. if it were to propose techniques they would have to map to existing, or wait for future WCAG version 15:30:23 Josh: agree that AAA gets ignored 15:30:24 ack korn 15:30:32 Ryladog_ has joined #wai-wcag 15:30:44 David: concerned about relegating to lower than AAA... 15:31:10 PK: not AAAA but rather just not testable techniques 15:32:00 test 15:32:05 MC: our charter is that we look at the future, goes in effect soon, does not permit us to do formal rec track guidance... but we will do gap analysis etc.. 15:32:24 MC: we may recharter to do new guidelines 15:32:38 ack awk 15:32:53 AWK: want to focus back on key 15:32:59 -> http://www.w3.org/2013/04/draft-wcag-charter Draft WCAG charter 15:33:00 question 15:33:30 does WCAg want to be part of this? as a joint TR, and do we have resources... 15:34:08 s/does/AWK 15:34:59 Katie: Expect Lisa has contacts to help 15:35:26 q+ 15:35:32 jamesn has joined #wai-wcag 15:35:38 q+ 15:35:40 rrsagent, make minutes 15:35:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn 15:36:00 MJ: there are just a few involved with WAI ARIA and Mobile is coming up... feeling split... 15:36:02 Zakim, .aaaa has James 15:36:02 sorry, AWK, I do not recognize a party named '.aaaa' 15:37:03 zakim, queue? 15:37:03 I see Kathy, AWK on the speaker queue 15:37:05 q+ 15:37:11 + +1.650.506.aaee 15:37:21 zakim, aaee is James_Nurthen 15:37:21 +James_Nurthen; got it 15:37:42 Josh: michael... it is allowed either as joint or separate, which would be less involvement... maybe throwing stuff over the wall... 15:37:51 ack me 15:37:55 ack Kathy 15:38:06 Josh: but we should be included 15:38:34 Cathy: if not joint can we join, and if they do techniues should we not be involved 15:39:55 Josh: is there any objections to this being a joint tast force 15:39:57 q+ 15:40:03 q- 15:40:09 No objection 15:40:22 ack kerstin 15:40:39 Kertin: already written my concerns... worried about non testable techniques 15:40:53 q+ 15:40:57 Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag 15:41:15 Kerstin: is it in our scope 15:41:21 q+ 15:41:35 q- 15:42:21 RESOLUTION: we accept that this will be joint task force between the OF and WCAG 15:42:36 s/the OF/the PF 15:42:44 Josh: we all have concern but the is energy and enthusiasm 15:43:33 Katie: may be able to be testable 15:43:36 ack korn 15:44:36 PK: support it being Joint... but odd that primary initiator is PF it is not at the protocol level but rather at the level of the content that is best or Cognitive 15:44:48 q- 15:44:55 ack awk 15:45:08 zakim, mute me 15:45:08 sorry, Joshue, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 15:45:09 PK: don't want it explicit that they are non testable... 15:45:28 zakim, queue? 15:45:28 I see David on the speaker queue 15:45:49 +q 15:45:53 AWK: we have a good opportunity to engage early... and dig into techniques early... 15:46:04 ack David 15:47:30 ack me 15:47:36 MC: advisory vs sufficient techniques... don't generally take trouble to write up advisory techniques... testability not a show stopper just how we handle them... 15:48:02 "In the same sprit the task force expect to produces some testable authoring techniques, but we are also expecting to produce techniques that are advisory." 15:48:10 Josh: concerned about non testable... maybe advisory 15:48:13 (*sufficient* techniques have to be testable but advisory ones can be non-testable) 15:49:12 q+ 15:49:32 ack Ryla 15:49:39 q+ 15:50:37 ack Ryla 15:51:01 zakim, take up item 2 15:51:01 agendum 2. "2) Response to question from HTML accessibility TF" taken up [from Joshue] 15:51:07 zakim, mute me 15:51:07 Kerstin should now be muted 15:51:20 + +1.704.877.aaff 15:51:33 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/imageadvice/ 15:51:37 zakim, aaff is alan 15:51:37 +alan; got it 15:53:23 Alands has joined #wai-wcag 15:53:40 -Kathy 15:55:18 q+ 15:55:23 Ryladog_ has joined #wai-wcag 15:55:51 q+ to ask David if he feels that the star example would not meet 1.1.1 15:56:09 q+ 15:56:31 q- 15:56:37 ack me 15:56:37 AWK, you wanted to ask David if he feels that the star example would not meet 1.1.1 15:56:57 zaki, queue? 15:57:00 zakim, queue? 15:57:00 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:57:32 at AWK ... i don't think it does... it at least an awkward fit 15:58:00 Zakim, unmute me 15:58:00 sorry, AWK, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 15:58:04 zakim, queue? 15:58:04 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:58:40 Zakim, unmute Adobe 15:58:40 sorry, AWK, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Adobe 15:59:01 zakim, unmute awk 15:59:01 sorry, MichaelC, I do not know which phone connection belongs to awk 15:59:09 zakim, take up item 4 15:59:09 agendum 4. "4) Mobile A11y and WCAG TF: Further Discussion" taken up [from Joshue] 15:59:33 Zakim, unmute all 15:59:33 sorry, AWK, I do not know which phone connection belongs to all 15:59:54 Zakim, unmute all 15:59:54 sorry, David, I do not know which phone connection belongs to all 16:00:13 zakim, unmute ipcaller 16:00:13 [IPcaller] was not muted, MichaelC 16:00:21 zakim, unmute Kerstin 16:00:21 Kerstin should no longer be muted 16:00:27 I'll redial 16:00:27 zakim, unmute ipcaller.a 16:00:27 [IPcaller.a] was not muted, MichaelC 16:00:30 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:00:30 On the phone I see [IPcaller], Kerstin, +1.650.506.aaaa, Cherie, David_MacDonald, Katie, Marc_Johlic, [IPcaller.a], Michael_Cooper, James_Nurthen, alan 16:00:33 +1.650.506.aaaa has Peter_Korn 16:00:45 zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue 16:00:45 +Joshue; got it 16:00:55 I just wanted to say that Steve said that if we have bugs/comments on the specific text in the 4.8.1.1 that they get logged as bugs 16:00:57 redialing 16:01:03 -Kerstin 16:01:14 +[Adobe] 16:01:35 Zakim, Adobe is AWK 16:01:35 +AWK; got it 16:01:41 zakim, who is on the call? 16:01:41 On the phone I see Joshue, +1.650.506.aaaa, Cherie, David_MacDonald, Katie, Marc_Johlic, [IPcaller.a], Michael_Cooper, James_Nurthen, alan, AWK 16:01:43 +1.650.506.aaaa has Peter_Korn 16:01:53 zakim, aaaa is Peter_Korn 16:01:53 +Peter_Korn; got it 16:03:29 q+ 16:04:34 MC: Mobility task force... going to UAAG, we haven't talked about it, need to pass resolution. 16:05:13 ack David 16:05:25 Sorry, I neglected to add the URI for the Mobile TF to the agenda 16:05:26 http://www.w3.org/2013/08/draft-mobile-a11y-tf 16:05:49 -> http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-ua-minutes.html#item01 UAWG minutes approving Joint TF on Mobile 16:06:13 Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag 16:06:17 MC: Joint task force UAAG and WCAG on Mobile 16:06:31 MC: we haven't voted yet 16:06:46 Can someone resubmit that URL, as I was kickedout again and missed it? 16:07:03 http://www.w3.org/2013/08/draft-mobile-a11y-tf 16:07:04 Josh: let's vote 16:07:07 ty 16:07:42 zakim, who is noisy? 16:07:54 Joshue, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Joshue (42%), alan (12%), David_MacDonald (27%) 16:08:00 q+ 16:08:05 zakim, mute me 16:08:05 Joshue should now be muted 16:08:07 ack korn 16:08:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC 16:08:17 q+ 16:08:35 meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 16:09:08 zakim, unmute me 16:09:08 Joshue should no longer be muted 16:09:09 q- 16:09:12 ack me 16:09:14 ack cooper 16:09:30 PK: concerned about hours... on TF 16:09:35 + +1.703.225.aagg 16:10:39 typo on "Mobile Accessibility Task Force will also coordinate with the Protocls and Formats Working Group, " 16:10:49 MC: Task force work counts towards good standing of WCAG... w3c culture moving toward mailing lists as valuable... have to manage your own time... 2 task forces, reasonable total time adding up to reasonable amount... 16:11:25 MC: we can add it to the home page 16:12:16 action: cooper to clarify on WCAG home page that participation in TFs counts to overall WG participation expectations 16:12:16 Created ACTION-217 - Clarify on wcag home page that participation in tfs counts to overall wg participation expectations [on Michael Cooper - due 2013-09-24]. 16:13:24 I would be interested in participation in the Mobile Accessibility Task Force. Not sure what the official method is for requesting as such. 16:14:32 RESOLUTION: we are Joint sponsors of the mobility task force 16:14:33 Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag 16:14:47 testing 16:15:36 -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/#taskforces WCAG WG Task Forces 16:16:06 Task forces we belong to now Cognitive, mobility, Evaluation methodology , WAI Ria, test samples, WCAT2ICT closing 16:16:23 SaileshP has joined #wai-wcag 16:16:27 s/Ria/ARIA 16:18:24 zakim, take up item 3 16:18:24 agendum 3. "3) WCAG review of Techniques Task Force: ARIA techniques for 10 September 2013" taken up [from Joshue] 16:18:44 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAGTechs20130910/ 16:18:59 David_ has joined #wai-wcag 16:20:49 rrsagent, make minutes 16:20:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC 16:21:30 q 16:21:35 q+ 16:22:46 q+ 16:23:16 ack Ryia 16:23:20 ack Ryla 16:24:07 -Cherie 16:24:50 q+ 16:25:19 ack awk 16:27:22 -Peter_Korn 16:27:47 DMacD: Was talking with SteveF, he's concerned about where text alternatives are duplicated, an images non-conforming in HTML5 without @alt unless in a figure element. 16:27:55 ACTION on AWK to make suggestions on http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_name_controls and http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_provide_a_text_alternative_for_non-text_content 16:27:56 Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at . 16:28:05 DMacD: There are other concerns. 16:28:10 ACTION AWK to make suggestions on http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_name_controls and http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_provide_a_text_alternative_for_non-text_content 16:28:10 Created ACTION-218 - Make suggestions on http://www.w3.org/wai/gl/wiki/using_aria-labelledby_to_name_controls and http://www.w3.org/wai/gl/wiki/using_aria-labelledby_to_provide_a_text_alternative_for_non-text_content [on Andrew Kirkpatrick - due 2013-09-24]. 16:29:21 q+ 16:29:25 -alan 16:29:29 ack 16:29:32 zakim, queue? 16:29:32 I see +1.703.225.aagg, AWK on the speaker queue 16:29:40 korn has left #wai-wcag 16:30:12 +alan 16:30:42 q- 16:31:00 zakim, queue? 16:31:00 I see +1.703.225.aagg on the speaker queue 16:31:05 zakim, 225.aagg is Sailesh 16:31:05 sorry, AWK, I do not recognize a party named '225.aagg' 16:31:06 oops, hit the end button as I put my iPhone in my pocket. Usability issue. 16:31:08 ack aagg 16:31:14 zakim, aagg is Sailesh 16:31:14 +Sailesh; got it 16:31:23 zakim, queue? 16:31:23 I see +1.703.225.aagg on the speaker queue 16:31:24 Zakim, who is on the phone? 16:31:25 On the phone I see Joshue, David_MacDonald, Katie, Marc_Johlic, [IPcaller.a], Michael_Cooper, James_Nurthen, AWK, Sailesh, alan 16:31:45 -Katie 16:32:40 zakim, queue? 16:32:40 I see +1.703.225.aagg on the speaker queue 16:33:21 ack awk 16:33:26 test am I still i irc 16:34:29 -Joshue 16:34:30 -alan 16:34:32 -Sailesh 16:34:32 -Michael_Cooper 16:34:34 -Marc_Johlic 16:34:34 -AWK 16:34:35 -James_Nurthen 16:34:47 -[IPcaller.a] 16:35:09 zakim, bye 16:35:09 leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.978.261.aabb, +1.978.443.aacc, Peter_Korn, Kathy, David_MacDonald, Marc_Johlic, +1.703.861.aadd, AWK, Cherie, Katie, Kerstin, 16:35:09 Zakim has left #wai-wcag 16:35:13 ... Michael_Cooper, +1.650.506.aaee, James_Nurthen, +1.704.877.aaff, alan, Joshue, +1.703.225.aagg, Sailesh 16:35:25 rrsagent, make log public 16:35:38 rrsagent, make minutes 16:35:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-wai-wcag-minutes.html David