07:16:32 RRSAgent has joined #owpworkflow 07:16:33 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-owpworkflow-irc 07:16:45 meeting: Publishing and the Open Web Platform - day 2 07:16:48 chair: Liam 07:16:58 agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/12/global-publisher/agenda.html 07:17:09 topic: intro 07:17:17 liam introduces the 2nd day 07:17:20 fjh has joined #owpworkflow 07:17:23 present: many, many, people 07:17:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 07:18:53 scribe: fjh 07:18:56 newt has joined #owpworkflow 07:18:58 eva has joined #owpworkflow 07:19:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 07:19:26 bert_ has joined #owpworkflow 07:19:55 Luc has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 07:19:55 phil madans nd dave cramer presentation, trade publishing 07:19:59 ivan has joined #owpworkflow 07:20:00 cuture and workflo 07:20:06 s/cuture/culture/ 07:20:08 rdeltour has joined #owpworkflow 07:20:16 rrsagent, set log public 07:20:16 liam has joined #owpworkflow 07:20:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:20:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-owpworkflow-minutes.html ivan 07:20:50 phil during career introducing more technology, bridging technology and business, promoting standards 07:21:12 see slides regarding Hachette Book Group 07:21:17 kawabata has joined #owpworkflow 07:22:08 did cd-roms and now solely using epub2 as ebook format 07:22:21 when part of time inc using XML 07:22:30 s/time inc/Time Inc/ 07:22:54 shifted from Quark to XML for workflow, books and descriptions 07:23:03 at end of process 07:23:11 wanted XML first 07:23:33 moved earlier but not first 07:24:08 goal to transition from print centric to content centric work flow with high quality for all formats, including print 07:24:39 60-70% revenue comes from print, so do not want to neglect print 07:24:47 using a tool ??? 07:25:27 another goal was to move from chaos to standardization related to outsourcing 07:25:34 Emma_ has joined #owpworkflow 07:25:53 got some files back from compsitors that was in Quark with no style sheets, merged content and presentation 07:25:54 sgalineau has joined #owpworkflow 07:26:16 the books looked good but were concerned once looking at details 07:26:37 shift to Docbook 07:26:53 stearns has joined #owpworkflow 07:27:17 uniform instructions for various parties, looking for uniformity, move to templates versus 1 of 07:27:36 james paterson books have same style, look and feel, so wanted templates for such 07:28:01 moved from outsourced to in house 07:28:19 i/did cd-roms/following from phil/ 07:29:14 in 2005 thought about going digital, using Word track-change, new approach for copy-editing 07:30:09 problems - authros could not figure this out, also various incompatible versions of Word 07:30:16 s/authros/authors/ 07:30:34 evolution of comfort with technology with authors etc 07:30:51 success! now cannot get people off of Word track-changes 07:31:13 fil has joined #owpworkflow 07:31:39 so now the question is now, why change since people now comfortable with this? 07:32:24 trade publishing has tight schedule, announce books in Sept for April publication, yet manuscript not even written yet, creating a tight publication schedule 07:34:01 tried again in 2009, documented detailed workflow, evaluated workflow time, 4 weeks for novel, 20 Fed-Ex transitions 07:34:18 s/-Ex/-EX/ 07:34:26 rrsagent, generate minutes 07:34:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-owpworkflow-minutes.html fjh 07:34:47 lose a day or two on each shipment, risk of loss etc 07:35:43 proofreading stage - output pages in PDF - those pages are printed, mark up corrections on paper, production editor has to correlate author/editor changes 07:35:53 then need to proof the proof changes 07:36:13 need tool to allow markup and avoid re-key of correction proof edits 07:36:27 thus PDF annotations can work but still require re-key 07:36:39 tkg has joined #owpworkflow 07:36:52 key offering of publisher is quality, benefit to author 07:38:30 production editor - biography of musical icon, manual typewritten, cut outs from magazine pasted, mimeographh - like reading 300 page ransom note 07:38:40 s/graphh/graph/ 07:40:02 publishing includes manufacturing and distribution but really relationship business, buy books in advance, relationship with author, PR etc 07:40:55 arguments re space around em dash, type of space, at some point ask if it matters, will reader notice? 07:41:45 continuum of such decisions, if ignore some details, then start ignoring even more details 07:42:04 HoTMetaL 07:42:20 it would have been easier to go straight from typesetting to HTML CSS rather than via desktop publishing, couldn't change fonts after typesetting 07:42:43 liam has joined #owpworkflow 07:43:12 every change used to be expensive, yet with desktop publishing changes became cheap, now more cycles 07:43:40 but with CSS going back to having changes being harder again, yet now used to much change 07:43:58 Dave speaks now 07:44:26 dave cramer 07:44:59 typeset books using HTML+CSS (PrinceXML) 07:45:42 slides examples of complicated books with complex layouts 07:46:41 novels contain new content - text messages, screen plays, fake magazine artilce 07:46:51 handrwiting font used by murderer - but justified? 07:47:05 s/handrwiting/handwriting 07:47:21 everyone aways wants more and new fonts, hard to organize 07:47:44 Fuck You David Foster Wallace (http://www.infinitydayweekend.com/2009/01/29/david-foster-wallace/ ) 07:48:04 CSS issue - font weight ultimate sumu? 07:49:12 corrections made with pencil and paper making it more difficult, word breaking can become an issue, not enough control over hyphenations 07:49:51 wysiwig + outsourcing has taught people that changes are easy and isolate them from the consequences 07:50:21 cycles of corrections - enlarge, reduce, enlarge 07:50:29 Emma_ has joined #owpworkflow 07:50:49 in date in text, changed for '1' the font, sepearetae from others 07:51:11 s/sepearetae/separate/ 07:51:33 number 1 lesson - every book unique, always a surprise 07:52:11 CSS - slide of CSS properties including a number of extension properites 07:52:17 newt has joined #owpworkflow 07:52:32 s/properites/properties/ 07:52:48 MrT has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 07:52:50 can do CSS generation using python to paramaterize etc 07:53:08 prince-page-group allow each chapter to have formatting 07:53:20 s/formatting/formatting at start/ 07:53:48 s/paramaterize/parameterize/ 07:54:11 work includes issues of details like using ellipsis versus periods with spaces, different for print and ebooks 07:54:25 punctuation is a major effort to get the details right 07:55:19 open type font features are critical - use all kinds of special features for the details 07:55:27 running heads are hard to do 07:55:59 slides shows some detailed CSS to accomplish this 07:56:09 s/slides/slide/ 07:56:51 can get tricky if running chapters together, managing head on top of page 07:57:10 many editions of same book - large print, hardcover, paper, ebooks, international etc 07:57:19 thus need for conditional text includes 07:57:34 predefine class attributes, xsl to filter 07:57:41 s/xsl/XSL/ 07:57:46 thus need for XHTML 07:58:25 PDF not enough, needs to be acceptable to printer, need slug, markings, using margin box CSS 07:58:36 why is math so hard? 07:58:40 :) 07:58:59 line breaks a common issue 07:59:12 control thereof 07:59:35 end presentation 08:00:39 bill caser apex: 3 Q, these difficulties were always difficult 08:01:15 s/caser/Kasdorf/ 08:01:29 dave: ??? 08:02:06 bill Kasdorf: need to understand what professional typesetters do, they've solved pagination, line breaks, hyphenation 08:02:08 ... 08:02:35 ... w3 interest group is collecting use cases 08:03:08 ... need to be clear what is needed that is not in CSS 08:03:56 .... be careful with term authoring, traditional publishing is different than colloquial of creating ebook, end product, considered production in traditional 08:04:21 ... much easer to deal with if we leave Malcolm Gladwell out of the picture :) 08:06:03 daniel glazman: all CSS extensions need to be submitted to CSS WG 08:06:18 Emma_ has joined #owpworkflow 08:06:22 ... long time since proposed, 13 years ago 08:06:47 ... problem is that the extensions are under-specified when submitted, need more detail 08:07:02 ... hard since they are being deployed yet not well specificied 08:07:18 ... the CSS WG cares about this but needs to achieve interoperability and adoption 08:08:14 adam wentworth: antennahouse extensions, surmising looks like they created table for XSL-FO to see what from that can be added to CSS 08:08:37 ... who writes the CSS stylesheets 08:09:20 dave: have a group of full time production designers, take marked up version and implement final version, including updates to CSS default 08:10:14 .. goal includes competence in CSS, ability to use same CSS for print and epub, so doing this for print helps with ebooks 08:10:38 liam : they are migrating from XSL-FO, they are adding to CSS features from XSL-FO as customers need them 08:11:34 akthi fletcher: will issus with print typography go away with migration to digital, or other way 08:11:49 dave: would love to have these problems in digital, see digial qality improve 08:12:14 eric kaboor: need expressiveness in CSS and fix faluty rendering engines 08:12:53 ... workflow question, paragraph is interspacing by 5%, do you do this and how 08:13:01 glazou has joined #owpworkflow 08:13:11 s/faluty/faulty/ 08:13:23 in other terms, where are Google, Microsoft, Mozilla and Opera in the room? 08:13:25 dave: to solve common paging problems will add word spacing etc 08:13:34 s/specificied/specified/ 08:13:54 s/digial qality/digital quality/ 08:14:04 s/akthi/Kathy/ 08:14:15 liam: line breaking fix via TeX was not so good 08:14:41 ... underfill hbox is example 08:15:00 s/akthi/Katherine/ 08:15:39 ... not as easy as we might think, still ongoing research 08:16:22 ???: PrinceXML implementiong javascript? 08:16:25 dave: underway 08:16:38 s/implementiong/implementing/ 08:17:02 ???: headlesess browsers vs prince route? 08:17:12 s/headlesess/headless/ 08:17:57 fantasi: not there yet 08:18:07 rrsagent, generate minutes 08:18:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-owpworkflow-minutes.html fjh 08:18:18 s/fantasi/fantasai/ 08:18:32 Pierre Thierry 08:18:51 thierry: issue is dual usages, source for human reading, also for technical workfow 08:19:07 ... need CSS extension with more power but less friendly 08:19:17 dave: want both, user friendly and power 08:19:55 ... CSS so much easier to work with than XSL-FO, so don't want to go back to lack of usabilty 08:20:16 s/usabilty/usability/ 08:20:38 Topic: what is a book 08:21:05 rrsagent, generate mintues 08:21:05 I'm logging. I don't understand 'generate mintues', fjh. Try /msg RRSAgent help 08:21:29 RRSAgent: generate minutes 08:21:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-owpworkflow-minutes.html glazou 08:21:52 Eric has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 08:22:50 s|s/akthi/Katherine/|| 08:23:04 rrsagent, generate minutes 08:23:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-owpworkflow-minutes.html fjh 08:24:03 liam: introduction are we doing what happened with automobiles, originally put wooden horse on front to make people comfortable (on cover of o'reilly book) 08:24:22 s/eric kaboor/Eric Aubourg/ 08:24:23 ed: introduction of what is a book with slides (see slides) 08:25:28 ... often conveying information in different media, convergence on web with site including text video etc 08:25:42 ... now focus on content not media 08:26:00 fjh: I guess the medium is no longer the message 08:26:26 ed: convergence to digital , focus on what the content is 08:26:45 ... Open Web Platform (OWP) driving this 08:27:21 ... same tools, same distribution channels 08:28:22 ... so what makes book different from others: self-contained, stand-alone, versus web interconnectivity 08:29:19 ... can link to web site from ebook, can link within book, but how to link to a referenced book? 08:29:33 ... second - can read offline, without data connection, anywhere 08:29:47 ... offline important use case 08:29:59 .... AppCache (mentioned again) 08:30:21 s/..../.../ 08:30:48 ... collaboration needed for getting offline self-contained to work 08:31:12 ... web outlook different - no view toward pagination, offline etc 08:31:32 s/no view/not the main perspective/ 08:31:52 MrT has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 08:32:06 ivan: another difference, typically web site is relatively small, a few pages, can understand site in one bit; book can be very large 08:32:24 ... readers help with reading a book, e.g. bookmarking into center of text 08:32:45 ed: cycle, browser optimized for short form, chicken and the egg here 08:33:33 fantasai_ has joined #owpworkflow 08:33:35 robin berjon: browser vendors need to pay more attention to users, e.g. look at the HTML5 specification, it is long, 700 pages? 08:33:46 s/pages?/pages/ 08:34:00 ed: browser vendors use it to test page load time, but not usabilty 08:34:19 daniel glazman: rendering engine implementer not browser vendors 08:34:28 ed agreed 08:34:33 s/ed/ed: 08:34:39 s/ed/ed:/ 08:35:22 daniel glazman: remember that a book page is not the same thing as a web page 08:35:46 s/daniel glazman/???/ 08:35:46 luc audrain 08:35:56 s/???/luc audrain// 08:37:19 karen myers: storytelling and rich multimedia - bringing newspaper to life in film scene - how about watching video in an ebook? 08:37:26 rrsagent, generate minutes 08:37:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-owpworkflow-minutes.html fjh 08:37:42 ... is a book with multimedia still a book? 08:37:52 ... if interactive is it a book? 08:38:57 yamamoto has joined #owpworkflow 08:39:03 liam: getting a cd-rom with a book when the cd-rom is not self-contained, a link printed in the book would be still as good 08:39:34 ... early ebook was a book with added multimedia which was ignored or a live application but web better for this with links 08:39:49 q? 08:40:07 q? 08:40:21 newt_ has joined #owpworkflow 08:41:05 Zakim has joined #owpworkflow 08:41:08 todd carpenter: is convergence simply result of trying to use same tools with community of web designers with similar experience so with more time might diverge 08:41:13 q? 08:41:41 ... also push back on lack of being well specified, note MathML is not implemented but well-specified 08:42:57 daniel glazman: concerns have changed over time related to web, now concerned about books, TV, mobile etc 08:43:11 ... before we saw emergence now at the beginning 08:43:51 newt has joined #owpworkflow 08:44:25 katie from ibook: definition of what is a book is changing based on features desired by customers. not based on tools. about the media 08:44:45 ... text , media, video and frequency of delivery 08:44:52 s/katie/casey/ ? 08:45:36 ... can distinguish app from book via ??? 08:45:56 AAA: need to think about user requiements 08:46:15 s/requiements/requirements and what they need/ 08:46:37 s/AAA/Adam Hyde:/ 08:46:50 s/Hyde:/Hyde/ 08:47:23 ed: remember those adventure boks with different endings 08:47:29 fjh: or Infocom? 08:48:20 ed: imagine can visit web site on mechical engineering, with information, fill out query of interests, get dynamic ebook from site based on interests and needs 08:48:30 choose-your-own-adventure books are in some ways still better in print. Can't flip back and forth through options as well in an ebook 08:48:34 s/mechical/mechanical/ 08:48:39 liam: is wikipedia a book? 08:49:00 ... publisher adds review process 08:49:24 rrsagent, generate minutes 08:49:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-owpworkflow-minutes.html fjh 08:50:13 nic gibson: idea of sequence is key, mentioned by a number of people now 08:50:36 ... you choose own sequence on the web, ebook has sequence 08:50:58 ed: news has soft sequence, placement of main articles 08:51:39 BBB: challenge self-contained, 08:51:42 ... ??? 08:51:59 Alain Pierrot is speaking 08:52:17 s/BBB/Alain Pierrot/ 08:53:10 phil: need to keep reader in mind. Novel is different from text book. Novel is self contained what to forget what the medium is. 08:53:28 ... whether ebook or print 08:53:31 Pierre Thierrry 08:53:34 part of Alain's point is that sequence isn't an essential characteristic of a book. reference books are read non-sequentially. that's why indices and TOCs exist 08:53:47 Pierre Thierry 08:54:07 pierre thierry: semantic web should allow many layers or reviewing on the we 08:54:10 Eric_ has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 08:54:14 s/the we/the web/ 08:54:34 ... need to be open to new ideas of what a book is 08:54:56 liam: nervous when hearing that technology will solve a social problem 08:55:25 ... originally had rel= agree and disagree but in fact solved no problem - identity and authority not addressed 08:55:38 rrsagent, generate minutes 08:55:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-owpworkflow-minutes.html fjh 08:56:18 julie morris: are readers looking for a different way to read books with digital books or is it the same act and need 08:56:37 ... thinking about what we add to ebooks, media, is it a different experience 08:56:55 q+ 08:57:05 q- 08:57:32 ivan: a gradual process of evolution is not yet clear 08:58:21 ... some features were not available in print, convenience of built in dictionary for example 08:59:09 .... should not expect rapid change of books 08:59:18 s/..../.../ 08:59:31 rrsagent, generate minutes 08:59:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-owpworkflow-minutes.html fjh 09:00:24 daniel glazman: hard to buy books from other countries on web sites 09:00:41 ... don't ask users about future technology, cannot answer 09:01:31 +1 09:01:43 fjh: raphael:Gallardo: a book is not aways a novel 09:01:58 fjh: what customers want is a faster horse and carriage 09:02:18 s/what customers want is a faster horse and carriage// 09:02:26 rrsagent, generate minutes 09:02:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/17-owpworkflow-minutes.html fjh 09:17:12 MrT has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 09:18:03 MrT_ has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 09:23:24 fil has joined #owpworkflow 09:33:55 stearns has joined #owpworkflow 09:34:02 bert_ has joined #owpworkflow 09:35:25 Eric has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 09:37:01 fantasai_ has joined #owpworkflow 09:37:09 ScribeNick: fantasai 09:39:07 Liam introduces the topic: guided discussion of CSS formatting 09:39:18 Liam: Topic is various things that make it difficult or impossible to use the web platform for books 09:39:44 Liam holds up a fancy red book he declares to be "out-of-scope". 09:39:46 newt has joined #owpworkflow 09:39:53 Liam: Initial caps, engravings 09:40:04 Liam: Typography had become mechanized, less careful about that 09:40:27 Liam: I love such books, but that's not the point. Point is to be grounded in the practical. 09:40:36 Liam: Not interesting to reproduce this book exactly. 09:40:46 Liam: But it's about taking technology and process, and creating something beautiful out of it. 09:40:51 Emma_ has joined #owpworkflow 09:41:27 Liam: CSS for babies: premise is CSS is easy, does everything you need. 09:41:46 Liam: But as we saw, many extensions 09:41:58 Liam: When we talk about CSS, talking about stable CSS modules from CSSWG 09:42:24 Liam: Not about things vaguely CSS-like, but that's not CSS. 09:43:00 Liam: One more remark. Who's been to McDo? 09:43:19 Liam: When I first went to Rome, was so suprised to see it that I went in. 09:43:29 Liam: Was said that when McDo was designing their restaurants, they had a problem. 09:43:46 Liam: They would come in, have their food, stay for a couple hours, have wine, and then go away. 09:43:54 Liam: Doesn't work very well for their business model. 09:44:12 Liam: So they made the chairs hard, so too uncomfortable to stay for very long. 09:44:26 liam is describing the venue prep for this workshop? 09:44:45 Liam: Typography is like that. If you read a book with bad typography, e.g. inconsistent letter-spacing, it becomes uncomfortable. 09:44:53 Liam: After 20min, you put it down and go do something else. 09:45:09 Liam: Idea that typography for comfortable reading should be unnoticeable. 09:45:21 Liam: I don't want us to get into details of how much to kern W 09:45:36 Liam: Let's talk instead, imagine, that we are improving the typography of the details, but question is how do we get that info 09:45:48 Liam: What are problems for publishers practically using CSS technology. 09:46:10 Liam: How do we get that feedback back to the CSSWG that's specific enough to act on, but also handles all languages and can be put into all products. 09:46:53 Fantasai introduces self 09:47:57 Liam: In all W3C specs, there's a Status section. Really boring. Have a coffee first. But it tells you where to send comments. 09:48:16 cristina has joined #OWPworkflow 09:48:19 Luc has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 09:48:30 fantasai: Our specs put feedback link to the top as well 09:48:44 Liam: W3C WGs must address all comments, no matter who sent them. 09:48:52 cristina has left #owpworkflow 09:49:01 Liam: If you're not in the WG, don't get to say *how* the comment is addressed, but must address them. 09:49:25 Liam: Can say, we're not going to solve that. You can go back and explain why it's important and what the use cases are. 09:49:58 Liam: WG will generally agree to solve problems that are commonly encounter. Might not agree to solve it now, might agree to solve it later. 09:50:06 Liam: ... discuss various solutions. 09:50:15 eva has joined #owpworkflow 09:50:24 cristina has joined #owpworkflow 09:50:40 Liam: Might take a few months; WG gets lots of comments. But should get to it eventually. 09:51:00 Alan: wrt vendor extensions... 09:51:04 Alan: Several classes of extensions. 09:51:06 tkg has joined #owpworkflow 09:51:20 Alan: Much more important to get things into CSS than to leave them in specific implementation, like PrinceXML. 09:51:21 Namos has joined #owpworkflow 09:51:32 Alan: Prince's extensions are great for their workflow, but locked into their impl 09:52:06 Alan: Another type of extension, can agree on an extension that can be implemented via JS. Can be important for certain industries. 09:52:46 Jirka has joined #owpworkflow 09:52:53 Bill: Suggestion that we use these vendor extensions as input... not suggesting that we need to do favors to vendors. Using that as an example of evidence for need of functionality that is missing. 09:53:00 Bill: How that gets addressed is whole separate issue. 09:53:44 Alan: [something about interop] 09:54:02 Bill: Don't want to make something that only works in Prince. 09:54:18 Bill: My main concern is issue of alignment with Print 09:54:27 Bill: 2 aspects to that, one deserves our focus, other not. 09:54:44 Bill: Alignment with print, needing to know where page breaks are for a11y in a reflowable book. 09:54:51 s/[something about interop]/important to get it addressed, but making something interoperable doesn't *require* convincing the CSSWG to put it in a spec/ 09:54:57 Bill: That's not something about doing the way print does, but serving user's needs. 09:55:06 Bill: Other is "look like print". Not sufficient in my mind. 09:55:13 Bill: Needs to accomplish the same things 09:55:23 Bill: But making it look the same, not so much. 09:55:36 Liam: Unless you're trying to format for print 09:55:43 Bill: Yes, that's a separate issue. 09:55:51 ?: Wanting to create print vs. look like print 09:55:56 ?: Consideration on which one has the priority 09:56:03 s/?/adam/ 09:56:15 Adam: Personally I'm very much of the position that browser can create beautiful rendering for pritn 09:56:20 s/pritn/print/ 09:56:33 Adam: Rendering to paper, seems odd to me to leave that out of the equation. 09:56:39 Bill: 2 examples 09:56:52 Bill: hyphenation. In trade print world, want pages to look good, want pages to have even color 09:57:12 Bill: In a digital book, when a reading system can't break a word, and there's a horrendously short line, it's a distraction to the reader. That's what the problem is. 09:57:31 Bill: Butting spaces around emdashes -- aesthetics there, but also allows to break there 09:57:49 Liam: So what I heard is a requirement to have breakable and nb thin spaces 09:57:52 Bill: Yes. 09:58:01 Bill: Digital environment needs to be inherently reflowable. 09:58:08 Bill: You're fixing the pages when you do print 09:58:22 Bill: For digital, you need to put the intelligence into the document, because can't futz with it later. 09:58:59 Liam talks about documenting cases like this, along with the use cases 09:59:07 s/thin spaces/zero-width spaces/ ?? 09:59:25 s/?:/Adam/ 09:59:27 s/?:/Adam/ 09:59:44 ??: ... 10:00:03 ??: Numbering of paragraphs or notes, not a position of Unicode, hidden in InDesign 10:00:09 ??: InDesign doesn't do a good job of that. 10:00:25 ??: Have a lot of issues like this, if should control via CSS or control via some other rendering engine, or font 10:00:33 ??: Another is direction of writing. 10:00:51 ??: Defer to the font 10:00:59 s/??/Alain/ 10:01:13 Ivan: Unicode spec will give you info about words being written rtl 10:01:18 Ivan: However there are cases where this goes wrong 10:01:38 Ivan: E.g. british abbreviation inside Arabic text, exclamation mark somewhere, need some extra control. That's necessary. 10:02:09 Ivan: Things in Unicode, yes, but also need higher level controls. 10:02:27 Adam: Want to push back on reflowable vs. ? 10:02:38 Adam: They're much more similar 10:02:51 Adam: Need to be able to design for multiple page sizes. 10:03:04 Adam: Once they're flowed into that space, yes, static, but static books are still flowable objects 10:03:14 Ivan: More general quesiton 10:03:32 Ivan: Discussion yesterday and today, sounded like CSSWG has to solve all the miseries of this world, and once solved, everything will be fine. 10:03:36 Ivan: They can try to do that. 10:03:46 Ivan: But looking as outsider as whole production workflow we discussed yesterday. 10:04:37 Ivan: To me sounds like everything is perfect in the workflow, except for CSS bits 10:04:59 Ivan: ... 10:05:00 liam: That is for another discussion. This session is CSS only. 10:05:08