IRC log of owpworkflow on 2013-09-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:16:32 [RRSAgent]
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07:16:33 [RRSAgent]
logging to
07:16:45 [fsasaki]
meeting: Publishing and the Open Web Platform - day 2
07:16:48 [fsasaki]
chair: Liam
07:16:58 [fsasaki]
07:17:09 [fsasaki]
topic: intro
07:17:17 [fsasaki]
liam introduces the 2nd day
07:17:20 [fjh]
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07:17:23 [fsasaki]
present: many, many, people
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I have made the request to generate fsasaki
07:18:53 [fsasaki]
scribe: fjh
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I have made the request to generate fsasaki
07:19:26 [bert_]
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07:19:55 [Luc]
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07:19:55 [fjh]
phil madans nd dave cramer presentation, trade publishing
07:19:59 [ivan]
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07:20:00 [fjh]
cuture and workflo
07:20:06 [fjh]
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rrsagent, set log public
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07:20:25 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:20:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
07:20:50 [fjh]
phil during career introducing more technology, bridging technology and business, promoting standards
07:21:12 [fjh]
see slides regarding Hachette Book Group
07:21:17 [kawabata]
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07:22:08 [fjh]
did cd-roms and now solely using epub2 as ebook format
07:22:21 [fjh]
when part of time inc using XML
07:22:30 [fjh]
s/time inc/Time Inc/
07:22:54 [fjh]
shifted from Quark to XML for workflow, books and descriptions
07:23:03 [fjh]
at end of process
07:23:11 [fjh]
wanted XML first
07:23:33 [fjh]
moved earlier but not first
07:24:08 [fjh]
goal to transition from print centric to content centric work flow with high quality for all formats, including print
07:24:39 [fjh]
60-70% revenue comes from print, so do not want to neglect print
07:24:47 [fjh]
using a tool ???
07:25:27 [fjh]
another goal was to move from chaos to standardization related to outsourcing
07:25:34 [Emma_]
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07:25:53 [fjh]
got some files back from compsitors that was in Quark with no style sheets, merged content and presentation
07:25:54 [sgalineau]
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07:26:16 [fjh]
the books looked good but were concerned once looking at details
07:26:37 [fjh]
shift to Docbook
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07:27:17 [fjh]
uniform instructions for various parties, looking for uniformity, move to templates versus 1 of
07:27:36 [fjh]
james paterson books have same style, look and feel, so wanted templates for such
07:28:01 [fjh]
moved from outsourced to in house
07:28:19 [fjh]
i/did cd-roms/following from phil/
07:29:14 [fjh]
in 2005 thought about going digital, using Word track-change, new approach for copy-editing
07:30:09 [fjh]
problems - authros could not figure this out, also various incompatible versions of Word
07:30:16 [fjh]
07:30:34 [fjh]
evolution of comfort with technology with authors etc
07:30:51 [fjh]
success! now cannot get people off of Word track-changes
07:31:13 [fil]
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07:31:39 [fjh]
so now the question is now, why change since people now comfortable with this?
07:32:24 [fjh]
trade publishing has tight schedule, announce books in Sept for April publication, yet manuscript not even written yet, creating a tight publication schedule
07:34:01 [fjh]
tried again in 2009, documented detailed workflow, evaluated workflow time, 4 weeks for novel, 20 Fed-Ex transitions
07:34:18 [fjh]
07:34:26 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
07:34:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
07:34:47 [fjh]
lose a day or two on each shipment, risk of loss etc
07:35:43 [fjh]
proofreading stage - output pages in PDF - those pages are printed, mark up corrections on paper, production editor has to correlate author/editor changes
07:35:53 [fjh]
then need to proof the proof changes
07:36:13 [fjh]
need tool to allow markup and avoid re-key of correction proof edits
07:36:27 [fjh]
thus PDF annotations can work but still require re-key
07:36:39 [tkg]
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07:36:52 [fjh]
key offering of publisher is quality, benefit to author
07:38:30 [fjh]
production editor - biography of musical icon, manual typewritten, cut outs from magazine pasted, mimeographh - like reading 300 page ransom note
07:38:40 [fjh]
07:40:02 [fjh]
publishing includes manufacturing and distribution but really relationship business, buy books in advance, relationship with author, PR etc
07:40:55 [fjh]
arguments re space around em dash, type of space, at some point ask if it matters, will reader notice?
07:41:45 [fjh]
continuum of such decisions, if ignore some details, then start ignoring even more details
07:42:04 [fil]
07:42:20 [fjh]
it would have been easier to go straight from typesetting to HTML CSS rather than via desktop publishing, couldn't change fonts after typesetting
07:42:43 [liam]
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07:43:12 [fjh]
every change used to be expensive, yet with desktop publishing changes became cheap, now more cycles
07:43:40 [fjh]
but with CSS going back to having changes being harder again, yet now used to much change
07:43:58 [fjh]
Dave speaks now
07:44:26 [fjh]
dave cramer
07:44:59 [fjh]
typeset books using HTML+CSS (PrinceXML)
07:45:42 [fjh]
slides examples of complicated books with complex layouts
07:46:41 [fjh]
novels contain new content - text messages, screen plays, fake magazine artilce
07:46:51 [fjh]
handrwiting font used by murderer - but justified?
07:47:05 [fjh]
07:47:21 [fjh]
everyone aways wants more and new fonts, hard to organize
07:47:44 [fil]
Fuck You David Foster Wallace ( )
07:48:04 [fjh]
CSS issue - font weight ultimate sumu?
07:49:12 [fjh]
corrections made with pencil and paper making it more difficult, word breaking can become an issue, not enough control over hyphenations
07:49:51 [fjh]
wysiwig + outsourcing has taught people that changes are easy and isolate them from the consequences
07:50:21 [fjh]
cycles of corrections - enlarge, reduce, enlarge
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07:50:49 [fjh]
in date in text, changed for '1' the font, sepearetae from others
07:51:11 [fjh]
07:51:33 [fjh]
number 1 lesson - every book unique, always a surprise
07:52:11 [fjh]
CSS - slide of CSS properties including a number of extension properites
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07:52:50 [fjh]
can do CSS generation using python to paramaterize etc
07:53:08 [fjh]
prince-page-group allow each chapter to have formatting
07:53:20 [fjh]
s/formatting/formatting at start/
07:53:48 [fjh]
07:54:11 [fjh]
work includes issues of details like using ellipsis versus periods with spaces, different for print and ebooks
07:54:25 [fjh]
punctuation is a major effort to get the details right
07:55:19 [fjh]
open type font features are critical - use all kinds of special features for the details
07:55:27 [fjh]
running heads are hard to do
07:55:59 [fjh]
slides shows some detailed CSS to accomplish this
07:56:09 [fjh]
07:56:51 [fjh]
can get tricky if running chapters together, managing head on top of page
07:57:10 [fjh]
many editions of same book - large print, hardcover, paper, ebooks, international etc
07:57:19 [fjh]
thus need for conditional text includes
07:57:34 [fjh]
predefine class attributes, xsl to filter
07:57:41 [fjh]
07:57:46 [fjh]
thus need for XHTML
07:58:25 [fjh]
PDF not enough, needs to be acceptable to printer, need slug, markings, using margin box CSS
07:58:36 [fjh]
why is math so hard?
07:58:40 [fjh]
07:58:59 [fjh]
line breaks a common issue
07:59:12 [fjh]
control thereof
07:59:35 [fjh]
end presentation
08:00:39 [fjh]
bill caser apex: 3 Q, these difficulties were always difficult
08:01:15 [fjh]
08:01:29 [fjh]
dave: ???
08:02:06 [fjh]
bill Kasdorf: need to understand what professional typesetters do, they've solved pagination, line breaks, hyphenation
08:02:08 [fjh]
08:02:35 [fjh]
... w3 interest group is collecting use cases
08:03:08 [fjh]
... need to be clear what is needed that is not in CSS
08:03:56 [fjh]
.... be careful with term authoring, traditional publishing is different than colloquial of creating ebook, end product, considered production in traditional
08:04:21 [fjh]
... much easer to deal with if we leave Malcolm Gladwell out of the picture :)
08:06:03 [fjh]
daniel glazman: all CSS extensions need to be submitted to CSS WG
08:06:18 [Emma_]
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08:06:22 [fjh]
... long time since proposed, 13 years ago
08:06:47 [fjh]
... problem is that the extensions are under-specified when submitted, need more detail
08:07:02 [fjh]
... hard since they are being deployed yet not well specificied
08:07:18 [fjh]
... the CSS WG cares about this but needs to achieve interoperability and adoption
08:08:14 [fjh]
adam wentworth: antennahouse extensions, surmising looks like they created table for XSL-FO to see what from that can be added to CSS
08:08:37 [fjh]
... who writes the CSS stylesheets
08:09:20 [fjh]
dave: have a group of full time production designers, take marked up version and implement final version, including updates to CSS default
08:10:14 [fjh]
.. goal includes competence in CSS, ability to use same CSS for print and epub, so doing this for print helps with ebooks
08:10:38 [fjh]
liam : they are migrating from XSL-FO, they are adding to CSS features from XSL-FO as customers need them
08:11:34 [fjh]
akthi fletcher: will issus with print typography go away with migration to digital, or other way
08:11:49 [fjh]
dave: would love to have these problems in digital, see digial qality improve
08:12:14 [fjh]
eric kaboor: need expressiveness in CSS and fix faluty rendering engines
08:12:53 [fjh]
... workflow question, paragraph is interspacing by 5%, do you do this and how
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08:13:11 [bert_]
08:13:23 [glazou]
in other terms, where are Google, Microsoft, Mozilla and Opera in the room?
08:13:25 [fjh]
dave: to solve common paging problems will add word spacing etc
08:13:34 [bert_]
08:13:54 [fjh]
s/digial qality/digital quality/
08:14:04 [bert_]
08:14:15 [fjh]
liam: line breaking fix via TeX was not so good
08:14:41 [fjh]
... underfill hbox is example
08:15:00 [fjh]
08:15:39 [fjh]
... not as easy as we might think, still ongoing research
08:16:22 [fjh]
???: PrinceXML implementiong javascript?
08:16:25 [fjh]
dave: underway
08:16:38 [fjh]
08:17:02 [fjh]
???: headlesess browsers vs prince route?
08:17:12 [fjh]
08:17:57 [fjh]
fantasi: not there yet
08:18:07 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
08:18:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
08:18:18 [bert_]
08:18:32 [Karen]
Pierre Thierry
08:18:51 [fjh]
thierry: issue is dual usages, source for human reading, also for technical workfow
08:19:07 [fjh]
... need CSS extension with more power but less friendly
08:19:17 [fjh]
dave: want both, user friendly and power
08:19:55 [fjh]
... CSS so much easier to work with than XSL-FO, so don't want to go back to lack of usabilty
08:20:16 [fjh]
08:20:38 [fjh]
Topic: what is a book
08:21:05 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate mintues
08:21:05 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'generate mintues', fjh. Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:21:29 [glazou]
RRSAgent: generate minutes
08:21:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate glazou
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rrsagent, generate minutes
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I have made the request to generate fjh
08:24:03 [fjh]
liam: introduction are we doing what happened with automobiles, originally put wooden horse on front to make people comfortable (on cover of o'reilly book)
08:24:22 [Eric]
s/eric kaboor/Eric Aubourg/
08:24:23 [fjh]
ed: introduction of what is a book with slides (see slides)
08:25:28 [fjh]
... often conveying information in different media, convergence on web with site including text video etc
08:25:42 [fjh]
... now focus on content not media
08:26:00 [fjh]
fjh: I guess the medium is no longer the message
08:26:26 [fjh]
ed: convergence to digital , focus on what the content is
08:26:45 [fjh]
... Open Web Platform (OWP) driving this
08:27:21 [fjh]
... same tools, same distribution channels
08:28:22 [fjh]
... so what makes book different from others: self-contained, stand-alone, versus web interconnectivity
08:29:19 [fjh]
... can link to web site from ebook, can link within book, but how to link to a referenced book?
08:29:33 [fjh]
... second - can read offline, without data connection, anywhere
08:29:47 [fjh]
... offline important use case
08:29:59 [fjh]
.... AppCache (mentioned again)
08:30:21 [fjh]
08:30:48 [fjh]
... collaboration needed for getting offline self-contained to work
08:31:12 [fjh]
... web outlook different - no view toward pagination, offline etc
08:31:32 [fjh]
s/no view/not the main perspective/
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08:32:06 [fjh]
ivan: another difference, typically web site is relatively small, a few pages, can understand site in one bit; book can be very large
08:32:24 [fjh]
... readers help with reading a book, e.g. bookmarking into center of text
08:32:45 [fjh]
ed: cycle, browser optimized for short form, chicken and the egg here
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08:33:35 [fjh]
robin berjon: browser vendors need to pay more attention to users, e.g. look at the HTML5 specification, it is long, 700 pages?
08:33:46 [fjh]
08:34:00 [fjh]
ed: browser vendors use it to test page load time, but not usabilty
08:34:19 [fjh]
daniel glazman: rendering engine implementer not browser vendors
08:34:28 [fjh]
ed agreed
08:34:33 [fjh]
08:34:39 [fjh]
08:35:22 [fjh]
daniel glazman: remember that a book page is not the same thing as a web page
08:35:46 [fjh]
s/daniel glazman/???/
08:35:46 [stearns]
luc audrain
08:35:56 [fjh]
s/???/luc audrain//
08:37:19 [fjh]
karen myers: storytelling and rich multimedia - bringing newspaper to life in film scene - how about watching video in an ebook?
08:37:26 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
08:37:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
08:37:42 [fjh]
... is a book with multimedia still a book?
08:37:52 [fjh]
... if interactive is it a book?
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08:39:03 [fjh]
liam: getting a cd-rom with a book when the cd-rom is not self-contained, a link printed in the book would be still as good
08:39:34 [fjh]
... early ebook was a book with added multimedia which was ignored or a live application but web better for this with links
08:39:49 [fjh]
08:40:07 [fjh]
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08:41:08 [fjh]
todd carpenter: is convergence simply result of trying to use same tools with community of web designers with similar experience so with more time might diverge
08:41:13 [bert_]
08:41:41 [fjh]
... also push back on lack of being well specified, note MathML is not implemented but well-specified
08:42:57 [fjh]
daniel glazman: concerns have changed over time related to web, now concerned about books, TV, mobile etc
08:43:11 [fjh]
... before we saw emergence now at the beginning
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08:44:25 [fjh]
katie from ibook: definition of what is a book is changing based on features desired by customers. not based on tools. about the media
08:44:45 [fjh]
... text , media, video and frequency of delivery
08:44:52 [stearns]
s/katie/casey/ ?
08:45:36 [fjh]
... can distinguish app from book via ???
08:45:56 [fjh]
AAA: need to think about user requiements
08:46:15 [fjh]
s/requiements/requirements and what they need/
08:46:37 [fjh]
s/AAA/Adam Hyde:/
08:46:50 [fjh]
08:47:23 [fjh]
ed: remember those adventure boks with different endings
08:47:29 [fjh]
fjh: or Infocom?
08:48:20 [fjh]
ed: imagine can visit web site on mechical engineering, with information, fill out query of interests, get dynamic ebook from site based on interests and needs
08:48:30 [stearns]
choose-your-own-adventure books are in some ways still better in print. Can't flip back and forth through options as well in an ebook
08:48:34 [fjh]
08:48:39 [fjh]
liam: is wikipedia a book?
08:49:00 [fjh]
... publisher adds review process
08:49:24 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
08:49:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
08:50:13 [fjh]
nic gibson: idea of sequence is key, mentioned by a number of people now
08:50:36 [fjh]
... you choose own sequence on the web, ebook has sequence
08:50:58 [fjh]
ed: news has soft sequence, placement of main articles
08:51:39 [fjh]
BBB: challenge self-contained,
08:51:42 [fjh]
... ???
08:51:59 [Luc]
Alain Pierrot is speaking
08:52:17 [fjh]
s/BBB/Alain Pierrot/
08:53:10 [fjh]
phil: need to keep reader in mind. Novel is different from text book. Novel is self contained what to forget what the medium is.
08:53:28 [fjh]
... whether ebook or print
08:53:31 [Karen]
Pierre Thierrry
08:53:34 [stearns]
part of Alain's point is that sequence isn't an essential characteristic of a book. reference books are read non-sequentially. that's why indices and TOCs exist
08:53:47 [Karen]
Pierre Thierry
08:54:07 [fjh]
pierre thierry: semantic web should allow many layers or reviewing on the we
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08:54:14 [fjh]
s/the we/the web/
08:54:34 [fjh]
... need to be open to new ideas of what a book is
08:54:56 [fjh]
liam: nervous when hearing that technology will solve a social problem
08:55:25 [fjh]
... originally had rel= agree and disagree but in fact solved no problem - identity and authority not addressed
08:55:38 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
08:55:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
08:56:18 [fjh]
julie morris: are readers looking for a different way to read books with digital books or is it the same act and need
08:56:37 [fjh]
... thinking about what we add to ebooks, media, is it a different experience
08:56:55 [fjh]
08:57:05 [fjh]
08:57:32 [fjh]
ivan: a gradual process of evolution is not yet clear
08:58:21 [fjh]
... some features were not available in print, convenience of built in dictionary for example
08:59:09 [fjh]
.... should not expect rapid change of books
08:59:18 [fjh]
08:59:31 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
08:59:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
09:00:24 [fjh]
daniel glazman: hard to buy books from other countries on web sites
09:00:41 [fjh]
... don't ask users about future technology, cannot answer
09:01:31 [Karen]
09:01:43 [fjh]
fjh: raphael:Gallardo: a book is not aways a novel
09:01:58 [fjh]
fjh: what customers want is a faster horse and carriage
09:02:18 [fjh]
s/what customers want is a faster horse and carriage//
09:02:26 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
09:02:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
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ScribeNick: fantasai
09:39:07 [fantasai_]
Liam introduces the topic: guided discussion of CSS formatting
09:39:18 [fantasai_]
Liam: Topic is various things that make it difficult or impossible to use the web platform for books
09:39:44 [fantasai_]
Liam holds up a fancy red book he declares to be "out-of-scope".
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09:39:53 [fantasai_]
Liam: Initial caps, engravings
09:40:04 [fantasai_]
Liam: Typography had become mechanized, less careful about that
09:40:27 [fantasai_]
Liam: I love such books, but that's not the point. Point is to be grounded in the practical.
09:40:36 [fantasai_]
Liam: Not interesting to reproduce this book exactly.
09:40:46 [fantasai_]
Liam: But it's about taking technology and process, and creating something beautiful out of it.
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09:41:27 [fantasai_]
Liam: CSS for babies: premise is CSS is easy, does everything you need.
09:41:46 [fantasai_]
Liam: But as we saw, many extensions
09:41:58 [fantasai_]
Liam: When we talk about CSS, talking about stable CSS modules from CSSWG
09:42:24 [fantasai_]
Liam: Not about things vaguely CSS-like, but that's not CSS.
09:43:00 [fantasai_]
Liam: One more remark. Who's been to McDo?
09:43:19 [fantasai_]
Liam: When I first went to Rome, was so suprised to see it that I went in.
09:43:29 [fantasai_]
Liam: Was said that when McDo was designing their restaurants, they had a problem.
09:43:46 [fantasai_]
Liam: They would come in, have their food, stay for a couple hours, have wine, and then go away.
09:43:54 [fantasai_]
Liam: Doesn't work very well for their business model.
09:44:12 [fantasai_]
Liam: So they made the chairs hard, so too uncomfortable to stay for very long.
09:44:26 [stearns]
liam is describing the venue prep for this workshop?
09:44:45 [fantasai_]
Liam: Typography is like that. If you read a book with bad typography, e.g. inconsistent letter-spacing, it becomes uncomfortable.
09:44:53 [fantasai_]
Liam: After 20min, you put it down and go do something else.
09:45:09 [fantasai_]
Liam: Idea that typography for comfortable reading should be unnoticeable.
09:45:21 [fantasai_]
Liam: I don't want us to get into details of how much to kern W
09:45:36 [fantasai_]
Liam: Let's talk instead, imagine, that we are improving the typography of the details, but question is how do we get that info
09:45:48 [fantasai_]
Liam: What are problems for publishers practically using CSS technology.
09:46:10 [fantasai_]
Liam: How do we get that feedback back to the CSSWG that's specific enough to act on, but also handles all languages and can be put into all products.
09:46:53 [Karen]
Fantasai introduces self
09:47:57 [fantasai_]
Liam: In all W3C specs, there's a Status section. Really boring. Have a coffee first. But it tells you where to send comments.
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09:48:30 [fantasai_]
fantasai: Our specs put feedback link to the top as well
09:48:44 [fantasai_]
Liam: W3C WGs must address all comments, no matter who sent them.
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09:49:01 [fantasai_]
Liam: If you're not in the WG, don't get to say *how* the comment is addressed, but must address them.
09:49:25 [fantasai_]
Liam: Can say, we're not going to solve that. You can go back and explain why it's important and what the use cases are.
09:49:58 [fantasai_]
Liam: WG will generally agree to solve problems that are commonly encounter. Might not agree to solve it now, might agree to solve it later.
09:50:06 [fantasai_]
Liam: ... discuss various solutions.
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09:50:40 [fantasai_]
Liam: Might take a few months; WG gets lots of comments. But should get to it eventually.
09:51:00 [fantasai_]
Alan: wrt vendor extensions...
09:51:04 [fantasai_]
Alan: Several classes of extensions.
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09:51:20 [fantasai_]
Alan: Much more important to get things into CSS than to leave them in specific implementation, like PrinceXML.
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09:51:32 [fantasai_]
Alan: Prince's extensions are great for their workflow, but locked into their impl
09:52:06 [fantasai_]
Alan: Another type of extension, can agree on an extension that can be implemented via JS. Can be important for certain industries.
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09:52:53 [fantasai_]
Bill: Suggestion that we use these vendor extensions as input... not suggesting that we need to do favors to vendors. Using that as an example of evidence for need of functionality that is missing.
09:53:00 [fantasai_]
Bill: How that gets addressed is whole separate issue.
09:53:44 [fantasai_]
Alan: [something about interop]
09:54:02 [fantasai_]
Bill: Don't want to make something that only works in Prince.
09:54:18 [fantasai_]
Bill: My main concern is issue of alignment with Print
09:54:27 [fantasai_]
Bill: 2 aspects to that, one deserves our focus, other not.
09:54:44 [fantasai_]
Bill: Alignment with print, needing to know where page breaks are for a11y in a reflowable book.
09:54:51 [stearns]
s/[something about interop]/important to get it addressed, but making something interoperable doesn't *require* convincing the CSSWG to put it in a spec/
09:54:57 [fantasai_]
Bill: That's not something about doing the way print does, but serving user's needs.
09:55:06 [fantasai_]
Bill: Other is "look like print". Not sufficient in my mind.
09:55:13 [fantasai_]
Bill: Needs to accomplish the same things
09:55:23 [fantasai_]
Bill: But making it look the same, not so much.
09:55:36 [fantasai_]
Liam: Unless you're trying to format for print
09:55:43 [fantasai_]
Bill: Yes, that's a separate issue.
09:55:51 [fantasai_]
?: Wanting to create print vs. look like print
09:55:56 [fantasai_]
?: Consideration on which one has the priority
09:56:03 [stearns]
09:56:15 [fantasai_]
Adam: Personally I'm very much of the position that browser can create beautiful rendering for pritn
09:56:20 [fantasai_]
09:56:33 [fantasai_]
Adam: Rendering to paper, seems odd to me to leave that out of the equation.
09:56:39 [fantasai_]
Bill: 2 examples
09:56:52 [fantasai_]
Bill: hyphenation. In trade print world, want pages to look good, want pages to have even color
09:57:12 [fantasai_]
Bill: In a digital book, when a reading system can't break a word, and there's a horrendously short line, it's a distraction to the reader. That's what the problem is.
09:57:31 [fantasai_]
Bill: Butting spaces around emdashes -- aesthetics there, but also allows to break there
09:57:49 [fantasai_]
Liam: So what I heard is a requirement to have breakable and nb thin spaces
09:57:52 [fantasai_]
Bill: Yes.
09:58:01 [fantasai_]
Bill: Digital environment needs to be inherently reflowable.
09:58:08 [fantasai_]
Bill: You're fixing the pages when you do print
09:58:22 [fantasai_]
Bill: For digital, you need to put the intelligence into the document, because can't futz with it later.
09:58:59 [fantasai_]
Liam talks about documenting cases like this, along with the use cases
09:59:07 [fantasai_]
s/thin spaces/zero-width spaces/ ??
09:59:25 [fantasai_]
09:59:27 [fantasai_]
09:59:44 [fantasai_]
??: ...
10:00:03 [fantasai_]
??: Numbering of paragraphs or notes, not a position of Unicode, hidden in InDesign
10:00:09 [fantasai_]
??: InDesign doesn't do a good job of that.
10:00:25 [fantasai_]
??: Have a lot of issues like this, if should control via CSS or control via some other rendering engine, or font
10:00:33 [fantasai_]
??: Another is direction of writing.
10:00:51 [fantasai_]
??: Defer to the font
10:00:59 [stearns]
10:01:13 [fantasai_]
Ivan: Unicode spec will give you info about words being written rtl
10:01:18 [fantasai_]
Ivan: However there are cases where this goes wrong
10:01:38 [fantasai_]
Ivan: E.g. british abbreviation inside Arabic text, exclamation mark somewhere, need some extra control. That's necessary.
10:02:09 [fantasai_]
Ivan: Things in Unicode, yes, but also need higher level controls.
10:02:27 [fantasai_]
Adam: Want to push back on reflowable vs. ?
10:02:38 [fantasai_]
Adam: They're much more similar
10:02:51 [fantasai_]
Adam: Need to be able to design for multiple page sizes.
10:03:04 [fantasai_]
Adam: Once they're flowed into that space, yes, static, but static books are still flowable objects
10:03:14 [fantasai_]
Ivan: More general quesiton
10:03:32 [fantasai_]
Ivan: Discussion yesterday and today, sounded like CSSWG has to solve all the miseries of this world, and once solved, everything will be fine.
10:03:36 [fantasai_]
Ivan: They can try to do that.
10:03:46 [fantasai_]
Ivan: But looking as outsider as whole production workflow we discussed yesterday.
10:04:37 [fantasai_]
Ivan: To me sounds like everything is perfect in the workflow, except for CSS bits
10:04:59 [fantasai_]
Ivan: ...
10:05:00 [bert_]
liam: That is for another discussion. This session is CSS only.
10:05:08 [fantasai_]
Ivan: We do have mechanism, to have this process
10:05:23 [fantasai_]
Ivan: We have an interest group. Job of that interest group is gathering requirements, etc.
10:05:32 [fantasai_]
Ivan: These issues should be handled by Markus & WG
10:05:42 [fantasai_]
Ivan: Eventually get to CSSWG, where we get to nitty gritty details.
10:05:55 [fantasai_]
Ivan: What I want to find out is, are there other problems?
10:06:58 [fantasai_]
Liam: Let's step back. Clear that people have problems with formatting. Question isn't what are those issues, but how do we go about addressing them.
10:07:15 [fantasai_]
Liam: Part of this is joining WGs, other is following Interest Group
10:07:22 [fantasai_]
Liam: [refers to workflow diagram]
10:07:41 [fantasai_]
Liam: Who here has worked for publisher with workflow issues? Or any project with more than 100 steps, that's repeated? :)
10:07:49 [fantasai_]
Liam: Will come back to that this afternoon.
10:08:15 [fantasai_]
Liam: And get more concrete next steps, creating mailing list or whatever
10:09:26 [fantasai_]
???: Initial pilots works very well, but starting to hit limits of what it provides.
10:09:38 [fantasai_]
???: CSS is about functionality
10:09:45 [stearns]
10:09:55 [fantasai_]
???: I would say, 80-90% of my issues are not print-specific. General typographic issues
10:10:06 [fantasai_]
It's a different Adam, then...
10:10:25 [Karen]
Adam Witwer, O'Reilly
10:10:26 [stearns]
first Adam is Adam Hyde, second Adam is Adam Witwer
10:10:26 [fantasai_]
Pierre: Extensions, need to be specified in a way such that browsers can implement it.
10:10:38 [fantasai_]
Pierre: But there are things that no browser will ever need or want.
10:11:12 [fantasai_]
Pierre: We want a set of extensions that we can will mandate to browsers. If we restrict to those that fit the browsers, might refuse extensions needed in print world.
10:11:16 [fantasai_]
plinss: Want to address that.
10:11:37 [fantasai_]
plinss: Sometimes when these extensions get rejected, it's because in CSS try to solve with a different model than what you deal with in print world.
10:11:51 [fantasai_]
plinss: In print world, laying out with specific text to specific sizes
10:12:02 [fantasai_]
plinss: In CSS, it's reflowable.
10:12:13 [fantasai_]
plinss: Many of these extensions are for tweaking things. We don't do that in CSS.
10:12:20 [fantasai_]
plinss: We don't know the paper size, or font size in CSS.
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10:12:36 [fantasai_]
plinss: Have to be able to describe document in declarative model so that rendering engine can do its best to get it right.
10:12:53 [fantasai_]
plinss: Instead of tweaks, want to describe in a generic way the problem. Not describe result.
10:13:06 [fantasai_]
plinss: If we talk about things in that abstract way, then more likely to spec and implement.
10:13:22 [fantasai_]
plinss: Because then the solution applies everywhere.
10:13:37 [fantasai_]
plinss: Instead of saying "I want these line breaks", say want even color, and have browser figure it out.
10:13:44 [fantasai_]
plinss: That's what we're trying to achieve with CSS.
10:14:21 [fantasai_]
10:14:32 [fantasai_]
????: Problems with typefaces. Hard to get right
10:14:40 [stearns]
10:14:46 [fantasai_]
Gerry: Nobody either form MS Typography or Adobe Type Group
10:14:55 [fantasai_]
Gerry: Major flux because of web fonts
10:15:08 [fantasai_]
Gerry: New tech that puts fonts in the cloud
10:15:19 [fantasai_]
Gerry: To make type world ... to people that use the type
10:15:51 [fantasai_]
Gerry: ...
10:16:05 [fantasai_]
Gerry: What's needed, e.g. for Regions ppl, for Location feature in OpenType, or ? in documents
10:16:09 [ivan]
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10:16:14 [fantasai_]
Gerry: ppl specifying different dashes in OpenType,
10:16:18 [fantasai_]
Gerry: This dialog doesn't happen
10:16:28 [fantasai_]
Gerry: Need a workshop like this, inviting type people
10:16:41 [fantasai_]
Gerry: ... meaningful in CSS
10:16:50 [fantasai_]
Gerry: Regardless need to have type faces
10:17:04 [fantasai_]
Gerry: elephant in room is Monotype, pushing cloud-based font solutions, should be here
10:17:07 [fantasai_]
Ivan: They are in the IG
10:18:03 [fantasai_]
Liam talks about liaison among WGs, IGs, and industry
10:18:18 [fantasai_]
Gerry: Start by getting people to have drinks together.
10:18:47 [fantasai_]
Alain: I'd like to come back on expectations that print publishers can expect form CSS.
10:18:58 [fantasai_]
Alain: It's about control, and obtaining best layout, but it's about control.
10:19:04 [fantasai_]
Alain: Web is much more reader-oriented
10:19:26 [fantasai_]
Alain: One useful evolution would be for publisher to indicate limits within which engine can conform to author intent
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10:19:50 [fantasai_]
Alain: When reader is non-conformant, still get some of the content, but indicate that it's not conformant
10:20:23 [fantasai_]
Alain: Reader, user, has much more ability to appropriate initial work, re-use it, trace the intents, know when he is respecting the meaning/layout of initial publisher and when not.
10:21:06 [fantasai_]
Liam: Remember when I first introduced Web to a print designer and told him user can pick his own fonts, e.g. always use Comic Sans
10:21:28 [fantasai_]
Dave: I would be happy to give up a lot of control over line breaking and justification if the result met the common standards that have evolved across history.
10:21:42 [fantasai_]
Dave: Don't *want* to tweak things. Would prefer not to tweak them.
10:21:55 [fantasai_]
Dave: I would like engine to break lines in a way that is beautiful and readable.
10:22:08 [fantasai_]
Dave: Issue of line breaking / hyphenation is great interest to all of us, print and digital
10:22:40 [fantasai_]
Dave: Wrt fonts, I as a publish may not have a good understanding of boundary between what is a [...]
10:23:20 [fantasai_]
?????: I don't expect that HTML will solve so soon what we have solved in our publishing over many years
10:23:28 [stearns]
10:23:51 [fantasai_]
Luc: We are ok with current results that we are getting currently
10:23:58 [fantasai_]
in print
10:24:06 [fantasai_]
Luc: But we are not satisfied wrt ebooks
10:24:29 [fantasai_]
Luc: Very common problems, hyphenation, vertical justification, running headers, that are not solved currently
10:24:38 [fantasai_]
Luc: Want them solved
10:25:29 [fantasai_]
Liam gives example of handing a suggestion to WG, getting something else instead.
10:25:41 [fantasai_]
Liam: Must always be vigilant, can't just give a request and walk away.
10:25:56 [fantasai_]
Kathy: Is there a good place with really simple digital examples of the effectiveness of typography?
10:26:19 [fantasai_]
Kathy: I think end users see it, notice the difference, but developers might not notice how much easier it is to read something that is well-designed.
10:26:27 [fantasai_]
Kathy: Wold be great to have A/B examples
10:26:35 [fantasai_]
Liam: There's books, of course
10:27:20 [fantasai_]
??????: Does the developer need to understand and care about what they are creating? Or just creating the tools that were requested.
10:28:00 [fantasai_]
??????: To explain the complexities that typographer to the developer suggests that typographic knowledge is simple and can be compressed in easily digested form by non-specialist
10:28:05 [fantasai_]
?????: ...
10:28:06 [ivan]
10:28:16 [fantasai_]
Gerry: Why would ppl spend so much time on a book.
10:28:23 [ivan]
10:28:41 [fantasai_]
Gerry: Have to be careful, otherwise have simplistic view of typography
10:29:04 [fantasai_]
Gerry: Knuth studied old works, and worked with Zapf. If worked with someone else, results would be very different.
10:29:46 [fantasai_]
Ted: Richard Rudder put an interpretation of Bringhursts' Elements of Typographic Style for the Web
10:29:54 [fantasai_]
Liam: Unfortunately, somewhat incomplete...
10:29:57 [fantasai_]
Liam: But very nice
10:30:24 [fantasai_]
Cristina: Typographic knowledge is not in the publishing house, but is given to publisher by external supplier, e.g. grpahic designer.
10:30:33 [fantasai_]
Cristina: Value chain, not just single person in production
10:30:43 [fantasai_]
Cristina: Ppl think publishers know everything. Not true.
10:30:51 [fantasai_]
Cristina: These kinds of problems not managed, except in wide general
10:31:02 [fantasai_]
Cristina: If you deciding fonts for a book, it's not publisher
10:31:27 [fantasai_]
Gerry: But somebody, some expert, knows
10:31:34 [fantasai_]
Kathy: I think that there are two things at tension here.
10:31:38 [stearns]
there are risks in compartmentalizing expertise as well - the developer needs to know *something* about what they are implementing
10:31:53 [fantasai_]
Kathy: Having something that gives wider audience an appreciation for this is not the same as having somebody else be able to do it.
10:32:23 [fantasai_]
Kathy: Also, want newer generations to understand effectiveness of all the little details that we care about
10:32:33 [fantasai_]
Kathy: Not asking for Typography for Dummies
10:32:53 [fantasai_]
Liam: Lots of research on effect of typography on readability, but [[...]]
10:32:57 [fantasai_]
plinss: Hard to read it, too.
10:33:12 [fantasai_]
Dave: I don't expect perfection from tools, but think we can do better than today.
10:33:52 [Karen]
Fantasai: I want to respond to the developer not needing to know what they are doing
10:33:56 [Karen]'s not just about knowing the tool
10:34:03 [Karen]
....they need to understand and be motivated to do
10:34:12 [Karen]
...they need to understand the essence of what they are trying to accomplish
10:34:23 [Karen] get requirements...then it's a weird collection of stuff
10:34:46 [Karen]
...and is not as effective or elegant as it could have been if they had known the restrictions or other elements from the start
10:35:01 [Karen]
...similar challenge across other industries besides design like engineering and architecture
10:35:14 [Karen]
...get architects and engineers in the same room and they reflect off each other
10:35:25 [Karen]
IM Pei worked with an engineer to get better solutions
10:36:32 [fantasai_]
Gerry: ...
10:37:11 [fantasai_]
Pierre: I don't know enough about typography, but sciences and crafts where it's been shown where if you don't have at least one person who is a real developer, real craftsman, you cannot succeed
10:37:19 [fantasai_]
Pierre: I would suspect the same for typography
10:37:37 [fantasai_]
Pierre: All developers don't need to understand and know typography, but will need at least a few who are almost typographers. If we don't have this bridge, probably will fail.
10:38:24 [fantasai_]
Liam: Had wide-ranging discussion about formatting and issues.
10:38:42 [fantasai_]
Liam: Go and have lunch, and when we come back, will talk more about how to address problems.
10:38:48 [Karen]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:38:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Karen
10:39:06 [fantasai_]
Liam: Think over lunch, how would you go about explaining to developers, that allowing fixed string in headers is not enough for a mathematical journal
10:39:19 [fantasai_]
Liam: What relations can we set up among typographers, toollmakers, publishers, etc. ?
10:39:26 [fantasai_]
Liam: Education needed in both directions.
10:39:41 [fantasai_]
Break for lunch
10:39:58 [Karen]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:39:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Karen
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ScribeNick glazou
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12:25:48 [glazou_]
ScribeNick glazou_
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12:26:11 [glazou_]
Topic "what are the barriers preventing us to use web standards for ebooks"
12:26:25 [glazou_]
liam: we do have problems otherwise you would not be here
12:26:40 [glazou_]
... question is what are the barriers and what can we do about it
12:27:05 [glazou_]
Casey: what's the proper way to do this?
12:27:28 [glazou_]
... go through what IDPF and EPUB have done? Starting point?
12:27:34 [glazou_]
... Markus what do you think?
12:27:46 [glazou_]
Liam: in scope? yes.
12:27:57 [glazou_]
... what you look for is a strategy to move forward
12:28:04 [glazou_]
... what's happening in the IG
12:28:21 [glazou_]
Markus Gylling: to a full extent, what's happening in IG
12:28:30 [glazou_]
... describe repertoire of needs and wants for the OWP
12:28:55 [glazou_]
... every time IDPF has to invent something, it means OWP lacks something for us
12:29:14 [glazou_]
... Dave Cramer going to lead some activity in the IG for declarative pagination
12:29:29 [karen]
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12:29:34 [glazou_]
... major effort of the IG
12:29:40 [Luc]
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12:29:45 [glazou_]
... including differences in locale and culture
12:30:13 [glazou_]
glazou_: what means declarative pagination?
12:30:26 [glazou_]
Markus: all what is needed to to pagination in the browser ; input for CSS WG
12:30:38 [glazou_]
... and write specs that meet use requirements
12:30:59 [glazou_]
Ivan: if we decide to concentrate on what IDPF doing, will lead to EPUB-only area
12:31:30 [glazou_]
... let's move to higher level, not only ebooks but broader issues for everyone
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12:31:45 [glazou_]
Bill: problem is to get them online
12:32:17 [glazou_]
... two paradigms: fixed width and browser
12:32:31 [glazou_]
... need to specify behaviour in pages
12:32:49 [glazou_]
... screen real estate issues, we use a lot of Media Queries
12:33:31 [glazou_]
... addressing the page metaphor
12:33:53 [glazou_]
Liam: prit publishers need to be aware of responsive design?
12:34:03 [glazou_]
Bill: need to specify specific break points
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12:34:16 [glazou_]
Liam: lemme ask a question
12:34:46 [glazou_]
... clear to me that part of your problems in life caused by outreach from us incomplete
12:34:54 [glazou_]
... training courses would be useful?
12:34:58 [glazou_]
... hearing yesses
12:35:07 [glazou_]
Bill: that's an aspect yes
12:35:22 [glazou_]
... publishers aren't exploiting the features already there
12:36:02 [glazou_]
Ivan: it is part of IG charter to produce a doc/view of W3C components we feel are relevant to publishing industry
12:36:12 [glazou_]
... has to be some sort of channel between us
12:36:20 [glazou_]
... only doable if enough people in IG
12:36:35 [glazou_]
... targeted events, something we can organize
12:37:11 [glazou_]
... one more action that came up yesterday in discussions: interactive books imply border between web and books become blurry
12:37:29 [glazou_]
... on another hand, developing webapps and intercative ebooks require a lot of specific knowledge, JS, etc.
12:37:42 [Dave_Cramer]
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12:38:08 [glazou_]
... creating a bridge between pub community and webapps community would match both interests
12:38:37 [karen]
Pierre Thierry
12:38:40 [glazou_]
Pierre Thierry: about MQ, one of the problems is the basic CSS model
12:38:58 [glazou_]
... one document and many stylesheets
12:39:05 [glazou_]
... with mobile the web is failing
12:39:23 [glazou_]
... one markup/style for desktop and different for web
12:39:28 [glazou_]
... same for publishing?
12:39:58 [glazou_]
Liam: CSS Transforms do help
12:40:10 [glazou_]
... specify transformations in your markup
12:40:22 [glazou_]
... Blink has taken away XSLT
12:41:06 [glazou_]
s/CSS Transforms/STTS
12:41:29 [glazou_]
... changing markup on the fly
12:41:40 [glazou_]
... people are using xhtml to use the xml toolkit
12:41:49 [glazou_]
.. transform your markup from one common basis
12:42:00 [glazou_]
... reorder content
12:42:33 [glazou_]
...XSLT is a way how people are doing that today
12:42:43 [glazou_]
... does not always work on mobile so do it server-side
12:43:10 [glazou_]
Vlad (Nokia): bringing together developers is exactly why we are there
12:43:31 [glazou_]
... use libraries
12:43:40 [karen]
s/Vlad/Vlad Stirbu
12:43:53 [glazou_]
... creating books for multiple devices and responsive web design is involved there
12:44:07 [glazou_]
... IDPF Workshop
12:44:36 [glazou_]
Massimiliano: we deliver content to web and mobile and now ebook
12:44:57 [glazou_]
... we use transformations
12:45:08 [glazou_]
... not affordable to have different representations and styles
12:45:18 [glazou_]
... we need to separate content and preso
12:45:25 [glazou_]
... matter of cost
12:45:34 [glazou_]
... we have to have a lot of content
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12:45:44 [glazou_]
s/have to have/can't afford to have
12:46:22 [glazou_]
Liam: people have said we need requirements
12:46:38 [glazou_]
... but also it's hard to translate requirements into a spec
12:46:47 [glazou_]
... have to have the right persons talking together
12:46:52 [glazou_]
... sync is needed
12:47:04 [glazou_]
... difficulty is that work is done by volunteers
12:47:21 [glazou_]
... problem of workforce
12:47:48 [glazou_]
... would you be willing to donate someone's time to do spec writing and editing and turn requirements into a spec?
12:47:52 [glazou_]
... we need manpower
12:48:09 [glazou_]
Adam: does it work to have longer workshops to do spec writing?
12:48:24 [karen]
s/Adam/Adam Hyde, Booksprints
12:48:36 [karen]
Daniel: To do spec writing, you need the editors and contributors in same room
12:48:42 [karen]
...that makes a lot of people to gather
12:48:49 [karen]
...our schedules are quite busy
12:48:57 [karen]
...having a longer session would be quite difficult
12:49:02 [karen]
Adam: would it work if we could?
12:49:12 [karen]
Daniel: we already have the working groups and interest groups
12:49:19 [karen] would help to give direct input to the right people
12:49:25 [karen]
...not sure it would help to write specs
12:49:30 [karen] have one contributor here
12:49:34 [karen]
...others not on web site
12:49:47 [glazou_]
stearns: in the past we had 1 day of CSS meetings joint meetings with other WGs
12:50:01 [karen]
Daniel: yes
12:50:11 [glazou_]
... perhaps coordination with publishing during on of our scheduled meetings would help
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rrsagent, generate minutes
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I have made the request to generate fjh
12:50:58 [glazou_]
Ivan: one issue often repeated is that one of the problems of the pub toolchain, there must be interaction between author and editor
12:51:16 [glazou_]
... format conversion issues
12:51:21 [glazou_]
... annotation issues
12:51:36 [glazou_]
... clear that all solutions are absolutely wrong
12:51:40 [glazou_]
... why is that?
12:52:02 [glazou_]
... does the pub industry has so strong requirements they can't be included in the OWP?
12:52:11 [glazou_]
... what are the features missing from OWP?
12:52:43 [glazou_]
... pratical painpoint
12:52:52 [glazou_]
Pierre Thierry: am a SW developer
12:53:09 [glazou_]
... I wish I had a rich visualization of differences for software
12:53:28 [glazou_]
... half-baked solutions
12:54:05 [glazou_]
... anything we suggest and provide must meet 90% of paper technology
12:54:21 [glazou_]
Liam: budget is not enough (metaphor)
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12:54:33 [glazou_]
... narrow bridge for 3/4 of the original traffic?
12:54:42 [glazou_]
... or larger but 3/4 of the ravine ?-)
12:54:52 [glazou_]
... need both worlds
12:55:12 [glazou_]
Dave Cramer: seems to be two things
12:55:15 [glazou_]
... formatting issues
12:55:22 [glazou_]
... hugely important
12:55:42 [glazou_]
... cannot do it to online because we need to see EXACTLY what will be printed as final output
12:55:53 [glazou_]
... PDF output in browser would increase quality
12:56:16 [karen]
Alan: improvements in rendering content, not PDF
12:56:42 [glazou_]
stearns and davecramer fighting
12:56:53 [karen]
Alan: step back before PDF
12:57:01 [karen]
Daniel: Given the question
12:57:08 [karen]
...what are the barriers
12:57:13 [karen]
...I want to come back to the roots of the problems
12:57:17 [karen]
...are not technical
12:57:20 [karen]
....I think
12:57:28 [karen]
...the roots of the problem I think are time and strategy
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12:57:36 [karen]
...IDPF wanted to release ePub as quickly as possible
12:57:42 [karen]
...and could not wait for us to standardize
12:57:47 [karen]
...question of time to market on both sides
12:58:07 [karen]
We will not solve technical questions until we address time to market
12:58:10 [karen]
...question of strategy
12:58:15 [karen]
...when a technology using OPW is built
12:58:24 [karen]
...can it wait until we finish the standardization process
12:58:45 [karen]
Ivan: my original question is, is it a matter of some technical features missing in OWP that makes it difficult or impossible in the reviewing process
12:58:56 [karen]
...if they are identified, then we can work on that just as we identify CSS features
12:59:18 [karen]
Daniel: If we don't resolve time to market discrepancies on both sides, we will miss the opportunity to solve again in the future
12:59:42 [glazou_]
Luc Audrain: I think that is missing in OWP upstream is better separation tools for authoring
12:59:49 [glazou_]
... semantic content on author's side
12:59:56 [glazou_]
... structure captured at authoring level
13:00:03 [glazou_]
... word processors don't do that
13:00:11 [glazou_]
... love to find an authoring tool for that
13:00:28 [glazou_]
... I think the OWP can bring us these tools
13:01:34 [glazou_]
Liam: easy authoring is the holy grail of sgml and xml people
13:02:02 [glazou_]
Luc: cascading is like structure
13:02:23 [glazou_]
Adam: one thing is the ability to track the revisions of a document
13:02:39 [Dave_Cramer]
authoring tools are less useful if there are not proofreading and revision tools
13:02:44 [glazou_]
Liam: there's a Community Group about that
13:03:07 [karen]
Hajar Ghaem Sigarachian
13:03:18 [glazou_]
Hajar: we should also consider interactivity and JS
13:03:50 [glazou_]
... don't worry too much about printing
13:03:56 [glazou_]
... just for the future
13:04:25 [glazou_]
Bill: going back to Ivan's issue
13:04:28 [Luc]
Dave: good point, needed too
13:04:28 [glazou_]
... two aspects
13:04:51 [glazou_]
Luc, Dave_Cramer please use /me otherwise disrupts minutes
13:05:04 [glazou_]
Bill: aspect of correction of things
13:05:08 [glazou_]
... authors make changes
13:05:27 [glazou_]
... certain classes of publication are layout-driven
13:05:38 [glazou_]
... content secondary compared to presentation
13:06:23 [glazou_]
... seee realtime the effects of changes of corrections
13:06:34 [glazou_]
... dynamic interaction between change tracking and rendering
13:06:46 [glazou_]
Ivan: the way I could see this thing
13:07:08 [glazou_]
... a. clealy important browsers have full understanding of all you need, technically wise
13:07:28 [glazou_]
... in that case, no need for pdf viewer
13:07:37 [glazou_]
... b. annotations, changes tracking
13:07:45 [glazou_]
... that requires some sort of browser storage
13:08:04 [glazou_]
... are the specs existing today good enough for that?
13:08:10 [glazou_]
... just asking, naive question?
13:08:20 [glazou_]
... can we identify a range inside a document?
13:08:29 [glazou_]
... IDPF has to go through media fragments
13:08:39 [glazou_]
... enough for your other needs? We don't know and have to know
13:09:20 [glazou_]
... SW implies money, we won't pay for it
13:09:29 [glazou_]
... but what are the missing bits?
13:09:58 [glazou_]
Adam: local storage is not enough IMO
13:10:35 [glazou_]
... kind of a gray area here
13:10:48 [glazou_]
... discussion about what JS is already doing
13:11:26 [glazou_]
Pierre Thierry: about change tracking, storing the changes is complicated
13:11:44 [glazou_]
... the way you store changes is not satisfactory ; we store the versions
13:11:52 [glazou_]
... the tool is reponsible for rendering the diff
13:12:29 [glazou_]
... yes
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13:13:01 [karen]
Daniel: we started tracking
13:13:09 [karen] change tracking in mark-up languages
13:13:22 [karen]
...we concluded it's impossible to do post-schema; you need attributes
13:13:30 [karen]
...Microsoft did same study and came to same conclusion
13:13:44 [karen]
...MS change tracking is so widely used, we should develop a substitute
13:13:49 [karen]
...they are world leaders
13:13:56 [karen]
...why don't we ask them
13:13:59 [karen]
....When I ask them
13:14:10 [karen]
...they reply 'show us the metrics and the proofs'
13:14:30 [karen]
...Microsoft has tried to show it 10-15 years ago; they don't want to do it any more; we did not listen; your problem
13:14:40 [karen]
...One of major issues with change tracking is not technical
13:14:46 [karen] is well known in @ community
13:14:56 [karen]
...we decided not to listen to them 15 years ago
13:15:06 [karen]
...the process is missing metrics and proofs
13:15:17 [karen]
Liam: you have made a good and clear point
13:15:25 [karen]
...we should have a break now
13:15:30 [karen]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate karen
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<break type="coffee"/>
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14:06:57 [newt]
Liam - Intro to final session
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14:08:20 [newt]
[liam shows summary points]
14:09:05 [newt]
liam - my interpretation of outcomes of discussions, issues that are barriers to publishers
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14:09:13 [newt]
or where work can be done to reduce barriers
14:09:28 [newt]
we need to turn that to a set of work activities
14:09:50 [newt]
liam - publishing interest group is creating task force
14:10:32 [newt]
markus - topic of the taskforce is "to describe the digital publishing communities requirements and uses cases for pagination"
14:10:57 [newt]
planning to spend time at 1st f2f working on pagination w CSS group.
14:11:18 [newt]
[half know about the JL Rec doc]
14:11:35 [newt]
plan to create an equivalent document with the detailed descriptions of issues for pagination
14:12:10 [newt]
ivan - parallel to that the css working group has discussed creation of a group to concentrate on same issues
14:12:37 [newt]
ivan - already had ideas for other taskforces - this just one.
14:13:11 [newt]
markus - interest group is focussing on topics of interest to members
14:14:09 [newt]
markus - other topics include annotations & social reading (already have initial requirements), accessibility & useability (focussing on how web accessibility translates to digital publishing - differences with print disabled?)
14:14:50 [newt]
markus - interactivity (not just education sector but also childrens' books - huge interest in use of interactivity).
14:15:37 [newt]
markus - smaller pub houses can't do this easily - need to be able to share libraries - move to declarative approach desirable
14:15:53 [newt]
markus - looking to identifiy pragmatic approaches to this most from a workflow viewpoint
14:16:30 [newt]
markus - also looking at metadata - not sure how ambitious - likely to create a separate group - huge area
14:17:54 [newt]
liam - with respect to this group - paged media taskforce - only working on issues presented by those present. people here can join the IG (member only)
14:18:59 [newt]
liam - also mentioned (and in css wg) having a mirroring taskforce - one is requirements, css wg does specs. Need resources to edit the specs.
14:20:33 [newt]
pierre thierry - advice for training - do not teach publishers how to do markup, teach them to understand the basic models and how they fit. May fail if training is too deep
14:21:53 [newt]
ivan - already have a task in IG to distill those features of the W3C output that are relevant to the publishing industry. May well need to emphasise the outreach and move out of the IG to create an outreach activity - to bring W3C tech to publishing world
14:22:33 [newt]
ivan - W3C should try to make it easier for the publishing industry to find their way through the W3C maze
14:23:15 [newt]
ivan - W3C doesn't yet know how to do the outreach
14:24:17 [newt]
liam - list is just random notes
14:25:50 [newt]
liam - several people using XML toolchains because HTML tools not suitable for some reason. XML role in OWP remains to be seen. XSLT in web browser is going away (gone from Blink). Talking about adding javascript hooks.
14:26:26 [newt]
liam - who is using xslt in browser?
14:27:18 [newt]
liam - we should look at the xml stack and see why people are using it and see if the functionality should be migrated to HTML
14:28:18 [newt]
markus - using xslt & xproc is very common. these people are worried about xhtml serialisation and it's possible death. What is the future of the xhtml serialisation?
14:28:58 [newt]
robin berjon - xhtml serialisation is not being killed. xhtml fully specified. there are issues with xhtml in conjunction with scripting that W3C cannot fix.
14:29:26 [newt]
robin - do not use it for scripting or interaction
14:29:37 [newt]
ivan - what about polyglot?
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14:30:19 [newt]
robin - polyglot is a document that describes authoring content that both xhtml dom and html dom are as close as possible. does not take into account scripting.
14:30:39 [newt]
robin - constrains use of some things such as script as data
14:30:57 [newt]
robin - polyglot has its uses, please provide feedback if you are using it
14:31:15 [newt]
ivan - is it still an official doc
14:31:38 [newt]
robin - still current, being updated. Not sure of the final status of the doc, might be a note or might be a rec.
14:32:06 [newt]
ivan - publishing industry should look at this document and give feedback? Who can do that?
14:32:21 [newt]
ed (apple) - great bedtime reading
14:33:01 [newt]
liam - anyone can comment on specs; even to say that it was useful as then W3C knows it's being used
14:33:27 [newt]
liam - one-day f2f with CSS and publishers and publishers IG
14:33:59 [newt]
ivan - would be hard to get an extra f2f given economic realities
14:35:04 [newt]
pierre thierry - the goal might be to get occassional meetings for some of the interested parties to create the dynamic (references the french bible development)
14:35:34 [newt]
emily - are the enough publishers using CSS to contribute in the IG?
14:36:01 [newt]
liam - who uses CSS in their org to do paged media and might go to a meeting ?
14:36:31 [newt]
[two publishers respond]
14:36:53 [newt]
todd - how many publishers are actually using this?
14:37:04 [newt]
todd - there are more than two
14:37:56 [newt]
emily - would be surprised if more than 10% of publishers (trade, education, etc)
14:38:25 [newt]
ivan - many publishers outsource - do you mean directly or indirectly through others
14:39:04 [newt]
bill - this is a very narrow statement - CSS for paged media only. Many more publishers are using CSS as part of their publishing?
14:40:21 [newt]
liam - how many people would go to a meeting to discuss and meet with CSS specs people?
14:41:01 [newt]
philip schatz - would go - there are more than two here!
14:41:31 [newt]
luc audrain - we should delegate someone from our organisation, we need this for EPUB
14:41:54 [newt]
liam - arranging this does not make it happen!
14:42:23 [newt]
liam - the topic is worth revisiting but no definite outcome from this meeting
14:42:49 [newt]
liam - final issue raised was revision tracking and formatting
14:43:18 [newt]
liam - xml early and xml first, revision tracking is a major blocking issue
14:43:44 [newt]
bill - at this stage formatting is not the issue
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14:43:54 [newt]
liam - page proofs are a seaprate issue
14:44:09 [fsasaki]
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I have made the request to generate fsasaki
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14:45:02 [newt]
pierre thierry - we should experiment - find some funding and get someone or a group to create an interface and try things out - publishers can provide better testers
14:45:17 [newt]
liam - in the web browser world, beta testers are users
14:45:46 [newt]
nicolas (hachette) - structured authoring needs to be an issue
14:46:32 [newt]
dave cramer - several related ideas - structured authoring, track changes, online proofing/marking - distinct portions of the idea
14:46:58 [newt]
karen myers - what is pierre thierry asking for when he mentions funding?
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14:47:45 [newt]
pierre thierry - possible tp plug this onto existing software (openOffice perhaps).
14:47:56 [newt]
14:48:31 [newt]
pierre thierry - possibly plugging into git; cheapest is git, then openOffice
14:48:53 [Dave_Cramer]
\me there are existing online editors with track changes, but maybe are inadequate
14:49:17 [newt]
bill - revision tracking doesn't need *final formatting*
14:50:00 [newt]
jirka - open office change tracking is not sufficient - some features are missing (like tracking changes in tables)
14:50:53 [newt]
adam hyde - strong believer in HTML first - up to offering development time to work with publishers to implement this
14:51:20 [newt]
ivan - do not get carried away defining a software project
14:51:38 [newt]
ivan - the question was "does the OWP today provide the required features"?
14:52:59 [newt]
ivan - at the W3C theres is a community group system, lets set up a community group - have a year charter - the goal would be to answer the question - do we need to go back to the drawing board for major OWP elements to add the required features
14:53:25 [newt]
ivan - the w3c doesn't solve the problem but creates the specs/requirements
14:53:42 [newt]
robin - we can do this now with a name and scope
14:54:25 [newt]
liam - before starting a group look at the Change Tracking Markup Community Group
14:55:05 [newt]
pierre thierry - never create a spec with no implementation, if we know this is so important...
14:55:44 [newt]
ivan - we are not creating a specification, we are asking the question - can we do this with the current specification?
14:56:11 [newt]
ivan - the point is not to create a product at the end of the group
14:57:35 [newt]
bill bras - one more possible topic - what is the relationship to research - academic research - how do we talk to researchers in this area?
14:58:25 [newt]
bill - Document Engineering conference in Italy last week for example - revision tracking research, document querying, metadata, semi-automated layout
14:58:32 [fsasaki]
conference doceng 2013 site is at
14:58:39 [newt]
bill - talking to people about getting the results of their research
15:00:09 [newt]
angelo - there is interest in the research community in these topics - research stops and meets implementation and specification at some point. research cannot provide implemations
15:00:26 [newt]
angelo - there was a topic at DocEng on how to manage changes
15:00:50 [newt]
angelo - researchers need to reach the other way as well as the W3C reaching towards them
15:01:21 [newt]
liam - not many researchers here because of the time of year
15:02:00 [newt]
ivan - is structured authoring a problem created by the current OWP standards or is it a lack of development?
15:02:41 [newt]
adam hyde - people trying to solve problems and the tools are not adopted. not currently fluid enough and the W3C could help in this space
15:03:32 [newt]
ivan - can the change tracking and structured authoring issues be handled via the same group?
15:04:20 [newt]
luc - more about getting information about structure and semantics into authoring. Cannot say if it can be done with current OWP tools.
15:04:38 [newt]
robin - there are precedents with this sort of issue.
15:05:21 [newt]
robin - community groups should be on specific topics - the IG is for the general issues
15:05:57 [newt]
liam - are there any topics/future work that can be done with people in the publishing/book/flyer/etc world?
15:06:54 [newt]
emily - suggests including archivists into this conversation - solutions to metadata, change tracking, character encodings, etc. These are things on the periphery of modern publishing
15:07:08 [newt]
liam - any more business?
15:07:19 [newt]
liam - thank you
15:07:26 [newt]
15:08:45 [karen]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:08:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karen