IRC log of owpworkflow on 2013-09-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:42:45 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #owpworkflow
06:42:45 [RRSAgent]
logging to
06:43:13 [fsasaki]
meeting: "W3C Logo Publishing and the Open Web Platform" workshop day 1
06:43:15 [fsasaki]
chair: liam
06:43:24 [fsasaki]
06:43:29 [fsasaki]
topic: introduction
06:44:40 [fsasaki]
liam: thank you every one for coming, Peter Lins and I will co-chair today
06:44:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
06:44:57 [fsasaki]
present: many, many, people
06:45:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
06:47:03 [fsasaki]
liam going through logistics
06:47:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
06:48:53 [plinss_]
plinss_ has joined #owpworkflow
06:49:02 [Eric]
Eric has joined #OWPWORKFLOW
06:49:03 [Luc]
Luc has joined #OWPWORKFLOW
06:49:04 [Fil]
Fil has joined #owpworkflow
06:49:14 [astearns]
astearns has joined #owpworkflow
06:49:14 [Fil]
06:49:20 [Dave_Cramer]
Dave_Cramer has joined #owpworkflow
06:49:26 [glazou]
glazou has joined #owpworkflow
06:50:02 [glazou]
ScribeNick glazou
06:50:42 [newt]
newt has joined #owpworkflow
06:50:45 [Em]
Em has joined #owpworkflow
06:51:04 [plinss]
plinss has joined #owpworkflow
06:51:04 [fsasaki]
scribe: fsasaki
06:51:26 [glazou]
fsasaki: ok
06:51:28 [fsasaki]
liam: anybody who has not been to a w3c meeting before?
06:51:32 [fsasaki]
(many hands going up)
06:52:09 [fsasaki]
.. great. one aspect of w3c workshops: they are industry consultation events
06:52:23 [pierre_thierry]
pierre_thierry has joined #owpworkflow
06:52:29 [fsasaki]
.. we get together to hammer out a solution to a problem - we (W3C) are listening to you
06:52:43 [ivan]
ivan has joined #owpworkflow
06:52:51 [fsasaki]
.. we have arranged some speakers, but please: interrupt us. Our goal is to figure out the answer to a question:
06:53:08 [fsasaki]
.. what do you need to do commercial publishing using the open web platform?
06:53:24 [fsasaki]
.. the only way we can fix the web is if you tell us what's broken
06:54:03 [fsasaki]
.. would be a great outcome to hear "good what you can already do today"
06:54:15 [pierre_thierry]
pierre_thierry has left #owpworkflow
06:54:17 [fsasaki]
.. another great outcome would be: hear what should be done for the future
06:54:25 [fsasaki]
.. any questions so far?
06:54:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
06:56:26 [rdeltour]
rdeltour has joined #owpworkflow
06:56:40 [ivan]
ivan has joined #owpworkflow
06:57:42 [fsasaki]
hash tag is #owpworkflow
06:58:15 [fjh]
fjh has joined #owpworkflow
06:59:21 [fsasaki]
topic: the future of publishing (presentation from Liam Quin)
07:00:17 [fsasaki]
liam: citing "The printed word is not dead - it only looks that way because it doesn't move" (2001)
07:00:27 [fsasaki]
.. Frank Romano, at Seybold 2001
07:00:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
07:01:23 [fsasaki]
liam: the open web platform
07:02:09 [fsasaki]
.. see also site for more info. A collection of technologies and standards from W3C, IETF, ECMA; Unicode and others
07:02:25 [bert_]
bert_ has joined #owpworkflow
07:02:25 [fsasaki]
07:02:36 [fsasaki]
.. name is coming from Jeff Jaffe (W3C Ceo)
07:02:53 [fsasaki]
.. includes HTML, CSS, SVG, MathML, JavaScript, ...
07:02:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
07:04:07 [Jirka]
Jirka has joined #owpworkflow
07:04:12 [fsasaki]
liam: computer software is moving to the Web
07:06:14 [fsasaki]
.. generic desktop computers are losing groupd. the owp can do graphics, types etc.
07:07:07 [fsasaki]
.. wordpress in the new pagemaker
07:07:42 [philm]
philm has joined #owpworkflow
07:07:44 [fsasaki]
.. so what is publishing? has anyone not read a physical book in the last year?
07:07:48 [fsasaki]
(2 hands going up)
07:09:03 [fsasaki]
liam: by "publishing" at this workshop I mean professional publishing
07:09:33 [fsasaki]
.. including words that are digital or not
07:09:56 [fsasaki]
.. "self publishing" is not included in this - of course this is important too, but not in scope here
07:10:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
07:12:12 [fsasaki]
liam: one aspect for digital publishing is: how to convey that a document can be trusted?
07:12:33 [fsasaki]
.. major issue is the incompatibility of reader devices across platforms
07:12:49 [fsasaki]
(many hands go up showing that this is really a problem)
07:13:13 [fsasaki]
liam: use of draft or unstable features are another problem for implementations
07:13:20 [fsasaki]
.. same for formatting limitations
07:13:40 [fsasaki]
"CSS does not - eBook readers don't" - interesting comment from the audience
07:13:45 [Dave_Cramer]
Some of the "new features" in CSS that don't work reliably across all ebook reading systems include margin-top :)
07:13:47 [fsasaki]
07:14:23 [fsasaki]
liam listing gaps - in addition to the above metadata fragmentation, prepress and finishing not handled
07:14:58 [yamamoto]
yamamoto has joined #owpworkflow
07:15:23 [fsasaki]
liam showing a formatting example
07:16:26 [fsasaki]
liam: things hard to do today at the web: footnotes
07:17:00 [fsasaki]
.. hyphenation, multiple streams of footnotes, crop / bleed / spreads / binding / finishing
07:17:19 [fsasaki]
.. respond to needs of various distribution and marketing channels
07:17:36 [fsasaki]
.. topic of metadata
07:18:32 [fsasaki]
.. libraries are asked: what books do I have?
07:18:42 [fsasaki]
.. but now also: who wrote the webpage?
07:18:53 [fsasaki]
.. we don't have marc records on the web
07:19:08 [fsasaki]
.. we have @@@ metadata that publishers have to use
07:19:20 [tkg]
tkg has joined #owpworkflow
07:19:25 [astearns]
07:19:35 [fsasaki]
.. but different book publishing channels use different metadata
07:19:38 [kawabata_]
kawabata_ has joined #owpworkflow
07:20:01 [fsasaki]
.. so metadata is an important topic, but we are likely to dive into that at a separate future workshop
07:20:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
07:20:38 [fsasaki]
liam: so how can we address these issues?
07:21:06 [fsasaki]
xyz: went to a conference for independent publishers
07:21:12 [glazou]
fsasaki: ask Liam?-)
07:21:25 [fsasaki]
.. publishers are worried about independent publishers
07:21:29 [fsasaki]
.. anybody can do it
07:21:35 [astearns]
emily form corvus?
07:21:40 [fsasaki]
indeed :)
07:22:27 [fsasaki]
liam: publishers are in the business of curation
07:22:38 [rdeltour]
rdeltour has joined #owpworkflow
07:22:40 [astearns]
just what I heard - probably slightly wrong on name and company
07:22:56 [fsasaki]
.. values that a publisher brings is: brand, ...
07:22:59 [kathi-fletcher]
kathi-fletcher has joined #owpworkflow
07:22:59 [newt]
'emily from corbas'
07:23:22 [fsasaki]
07:24:52 [fsasaki]
liam: publishing is about curating, finding authors, quality, ...
07:25:17 [fsasaki]
adam: I see publishing as a business model
07:25:27 [fsasaki]
.. we are trying to work out how to produce knowledge and cultural items
07:25:44 [fsasaki]
.. even then we talk about authors this is very "loaded"
07:25:49 [Dave_Cramer]
Even some NY Times Bestsellers come from publishers other than the big 5.
07:25:54 [fsasaki]
.. this is not the only way to produce quality
07:26:14 [fsasaki]
.. every time a word like publishing, author, book comes up there is a special auro about that
07:26:24 [fsasaki]
.. for me these are legacy terms we need to challenge a bit
07:26:57 [fsasaki]
liam: there is two conversations: what is publishing vs. what is a book
07:27:05 [fsasaki]
.. what is publishing will come up a lot
07:27:27 [fsasaki]
.. don't think it is productive for publishers to think that they are in the printing business
07:28:11 [fsasaki]
liam: now about w3c in general
07:28:24 [fsasaki]
.. a technical standards organization responsible for the world wide web
07:29:13 [fsasaki]
.. we are trying to fix problems in the web
07:29:45 [fsasaki]
.. we are a member funded consortium
07:31:00 [fsasaki]
.. companies pay to join and then can participate in working groups
07:31:24 [fsasaki]
.. w3c is about community and conversations
07:32:37 [fsasaki]
.. a group of related technical work items and interconnected working groups
07:32:43 [Emma]
Emma has joined #owpworkflow
07:32:54 [fsasaki]
.. like XML, TV on the Web, publishing, ...
07:33:20 [fsasaki]
.. some areas are cross area relevant, like internationalization or accessibility
07:33:49 [fsasaki]
.. example of internationalization needs to add markup to strings e.g. for ruby annotation
07:34:16 [fsasaki]
.. or accessibiltiy needs for people with various disabilities
07:34:28 [fsasaki]
.. publishing activity lead is Ivan Herman
07:35:00 [fsasaki]
.. we have liaisons with the IDPF, Markus Gylling
07:35:05 [fsasaki]
.. others are coming up
07:35:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
07:35:44 [Fil]
(a slide in small red type, about accessibility (just sayin'))
07:36:01 [fsasaki]
liam: membership includes publishers, tool vendords, users etc.
07:36:14 [fsasaki]
.. involvement of users for creating specs is important
07:36:30 [fsasaki]
.. we are doing a series of workshops on publishing
07:36:48 [fsasaki]
.. this one is focusing on workflow issues, from authors to producing physical or eBooks
07:37:14 [fsasaki]
.. the idea that you can use the same file to produce an eBook on the web or print
07:37:20 [eva]
eva has joined #owpworkflow
07:38:17 [fsasaki]
.. we are to identify the needs and barriers for the workflow topic
07:38:24 [newt]
newt has joined #owpworkflow
07:38:44 [fsasaki]
.. aim of the workshop is not to solve the issues. but rather to understand how to solve things and what are the right people to solve them
07:39:18 [fsasaki]
.. the w3c process says: a spec will not become a final standard ("Recommendation") unless all comments are addressed
07:39:38 [fsasaki]
.. our process ensures consensus and produces open standards
07:39:49 [Em]
Em has joined #owpworkflow
07:39:52 [fsasaki]
.. = a royalty free platform
07:40:38 [fsasaki]
.. reaching also out to specific communities
07:41:15 [fsasaki]
liam: what you can do? join w3c, join the digital publishing interest group - if you don't join w3c then you can make comments from the outside
07:41:57 [fsasaki]
liam: some things that many things in publishing have in common
07:42:05 [fsasaki]
.. most of technical innovations in publishing come from a meeting:
07:42:20 [fsasaki]
.. between someone who has a need (a publisher) and a technologist
07:43:37 [fantasai_]
fantasai_ has joined #owpworkflow
07:44:22 [Dave_Cramer]
Dave_Cramer has joined #owpworkflow
07:44:36 [tkg_]
tkg_ has joined #owpworkflow
07:45:22 [fsasaki]
liam telling the story of gutenberg inventing book printing - showing the value of collaboration between publishing needs and technologists
07:45:51 [fsasaki]
liam: technologists have to listen to publishers - and publishers should say "it would be cool if ..."
07:46:04 [fsasaki]
.. domain experts need to communicate
07:46:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
07:46:47 [fsasaki]
speaker from univ. of redding
07:47:11 [fsasaki]
aaa: would be good to have concrete ideas about what is not written in standards, but what is best practices
07:47:22 [fsasaki]
.. people that have a position in publishing houses
07:47:51 [fsasaki]
.. there is a lot of work todo to translate things from print publishing world into other areas
07:47:56 [glazou]
speaker was Gerry Leonidas, University of Reading
07:48:20 [fsasaki]
liam: in w3c we have a document about japanese layout requirements
07:48:39 [fsasaki]
.. there are no requirements documents yet for other languages
07:49:11 [fsasaki]
[info about that: such documents are currently being created]
07:49:48 [fsasaki]
liam: an issue was that for some time that knowledge was not known
07:51:12 [fsasaki]
liam: workflow in publishing in an ideal world: there is one file, converted to PDF, sent to the printing company, and then to eBook people to make an eBook
07:51:24 [glazou]
speaker was Luc Audrain, Hachette Livre
07:51:36 [fsasaki]
.. you don't want editorial changes to happen in either of the publications
07:51:43 [fsasaki]
.. people are using XML to create eBooks
07:51:56 [fsasaki]
.. 40% of publishers are using XML in some point in their workflow
07:52:13 [fsasaki]
.. if you take your wordfile and convert it to XML
07:52:24 [fsasaki]
.. you have done proofreading etc.
07:52:36 [fsasaki]
.. that is one workflow
07:52:45 [fsasaki]
... "XML late" means: you ahve done pagination etc.
07:52:59 [fsasaki]
.. and then convert to XML. That is not so good but it saves money in the short term
07:53:03 [bert_]
i/liam: worksflow/Audrain (Hachette Livre): 99% of content is made offline.
07:53:09 [fsasaki]
.. XML late people would like to do XML early
07:53:52 [fsasaki]
bill: about "unspoken rules" and cultural knowledge
07:54:07 [fsasaki]
.. when we look at chapter of a book, titles, different type sizes
07:54:25 [fsasaki]
.. we know by convention of typography what things are
07:54:34 [fsasaki]
.. behind these are markup
07:54:42 [fsasaki]
.. we think that the presentation is the structure, but it is not
07:54:53 [fsasaki]
.. there is nothing "given" in this
07:55:07 [fsasaki]
.. another example: in the mid 90s there was a workshop about web based publishing
07:55:12 [fsasaki]
.. the web was brand new
07:55:25 [fsasaki]
.. one student had a publication with certain elements in blue and underscored
07:55:44 [fsasaki]
.. the convention that these are links was not stable yet
07:56:02 [fsasaki]
.. so anybody that already had used the web were not used to that
07:56:25 [fsasaki]
.. now reading the new york times digital today: links are in grey, important terms are in blue (but without underlining)
07:56:39 [fsasaki]
.. these examples show that these conventions evolve other time
07:58:08 [fsasaki]
topic: presentation from Adam Witwer, O'Reilly Media
07:58:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
08:01:08 [Dave_Cramer]
Dave_Cramer has joined #owpworkflow
08:01:35 [bert_]
i/liam: workflow/Audrain (Hachette Livre): 99% of content is made offline.
08:02:14 [glazou]
so why isn't O'Reilly a member of the CSS WG?
08:02:29 [fsasaki]
adam: my main area is tools and software dev side
08:03:20 [fsasaki]
.. a story in four chapters: 1 escape from framemaker 2 down the cascade 3 dawn of HTMLook 4 atlas never shrugs
08:03:33 [fsasaki]
adam: approach that I describe is just one
08:04:12 [Dave_Cramer]
08:05:22 [fsasaki]
adam: framemaker is a tool for creating content like indesign
08:05:37 [fsasaki]
.. docbook xml is a standard for technical documentation
08:05:58 [fsasaki]
.. today it is version 5.1 - we are using 5.0 internally
08:06:13 [fsasaki]
.. this was in 2006, before anything on the digital book side was happening
08:06:34 [fsasaki]
.. in 2007 ePub became an IDPF standard - so above was a pre eBook standard
08:06:46 [fsasaki]
.. so why did we move from framemaker to docbook?
08:07:10 [fsasaki]
.. we had safari books online - 25% of our authors said I will write my book in docbook
08:07:38 [fsasaki]
.. so we took docbook into framemaker and tried to work with it - that was insane
08:07:57 [fsasaki]
... also books needed heavy unicode support - framemaker at that time was not good at that, XML is
08:08:36 [fsasaki]
.. so our workflow then was DocBook XML > XLF-FO > PDF. The step fro XML to FO used XSLT
08:08:37 [Eric]
Eric has joined #OWPWORKFLOW
08:09:06 [fsasaki]
.. XSL-FO is like HTML and CSS put together. very difficult to read - more for machines to process
08:09:24 [fsasaki]
.. the step FO > PDF used antenna house (just one choice possible here)
08:09:36 [fsasaki]
.. what did we learn? First, book is not equal to PDF
08:09:49 [fsasaki]
.. PDF was just one representation of the XML
08:10:21 [fsasaki]
.. this lead to the single source publishing model: from one set of markup we produce many outputs. This was around 2007
08:10:36 [fsasaki]
.. from XML content to Safari books online, PDF, ePub, ...
08:10:55 [fsasaki]
.. single source publishing was very succcessful
08:11:01 [fsasaki]
.. cost saving was great
08:11:18 [fsasaki]
.. we were able to pull this off since we had a standard and technical authors already using that
08:11:24 [fsasaki]
.. so we had "XML early, XML first"
08:11:47 [fsasaki]
.. we had authors writing in wrod etc. - we converted that to XML docbook
08:12:17 [fsasaki]
.. now chapter 2 - a switch from XSL-FO to CSS for page layout
08:12:51 [fsasaki]
.. reason was various events: ePub 3 came up, O'Reilly loses lead XSL-FO developer.
08:13:10 [fsasaki]
.. docbook had xslt stylesheets to create ePub output
08:13:20 [fsasaki]
.. and antenna house 6 supported CSS
08:13:50 [fsasaki]
.. also, "by accident" we got HTML5 (as ePub3 format)
08:14:06 [fsasaki]
.. all above "events" happened in a few monhts
08:14:30 [fsasaki]
.. so we started doing workflows like: XML > XSLT > HTML5+CSS > PDF (via Antenna House)
08:14:41 [fsasaki]
.. this was hugely successful in the production group
08:15:01 [fsasaki]
.. it lifted the bail for many people to understand the production process
08:15:20 [fsasaki]
.. our first XSL-FO workflow as about "doing things as good as it gets"
08:15:40 [fsasaki]
.. I did not like the idea that PDF is not important and will go away
08:15:47 [fsasaki]
.. we rather took that moment to make things better
08:16:09 [Emma]
Emma has joined #owpworkflow
08:16:15 [fsasaki]
.. if you compare our PDF produced today to 3 years ago, the difference is amazing, e.g. looking at font usage etc.
08:16:52 [fsasaki]
.. we use CSS modules like paged media, generated content, text, fonts
08:17:02 [fsasaki]
.. paged media is relying no the box model
08:17:14 [fsasaki]
.. there is the content and in the edge other regions
08:17:16 [kawabata]
kawabata has joined #owpworkflow
08:17:58 [fsasaki]
.. you can select a right page, bottom right (which is nested), then a generated content
08:18:23 [fsasaki]
s/content/piece of content/
08:18:35 [fsasaki]
.. including page number, font settings etc.
08:18:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
08:19:47 [fsasaki]
glazou: a problem with this presentaiton and the modules you are mentioning
08:19:56 [fsasaki]
.. the modules are not even stable working drafts
08:20:19 [fsasaki]
.. o'reilly is not member of the CSS working group and you are the heaviest user of the modules
08:20:32 [fsasaki]
.. without your input & help, we will not make it
08:20:39 [fsasaki]
.. these things are used all other the place
08:21:08 [fsasaki]
.. the things are not "ready to use". There are many problems about the features that you described
08:21:21 [fsasaki]
.. we all know these things exist - but please know that they are unstable
08:21:33 [fsasaki]
.. they are implemented by some vendors - antenna house and prince
08:21:41 [fsasaki]
.. but from a CSS perspective they don't exist
08:22:19 [fsasaki]
ivan: saying the same in a more positive manner: please come to the WG to do the work!
08:22:47 [fsasaki]
adam: I searched for vendor extensions and there are not many in our style sheets
08:23:07 [fsasaki]
adam showing examples from typography and images
08:24:11 [fsasaki]
s/examples/examples of vendor extensions with -ah prefix/
08:24:52 [fsasaki]
adam: image placement is a mess in CSS spec but also in the tool(s) - something which we struggle with
08:25:25 [fsasaki]
.. pages are reflowable - on the web the approach is different than in traditional publishing
08:26:07 [liam]
[Liam's presentation, for the record, ]
08:26:24 [fsasaki]
adam: bnefits of CSS over xsl-fo:
08:26:33 [fsasaki]
.. "democratization" of style sheet dev
08:26:46 [fsasaki]
.. removes "programmer" from between designer and page
08:26:54 [fsasaki]
.. development was faster for CSS
08:27:17 [fsasaki]
.. benefits of CSS over traditional page layout:
08:27:55 [fsasaki]
.. same content easily can be presented in different ways - like you see it all the time on the web
08:28:13 [fsasaki]
.. o'reilly "animal" book template: 3251 lines of CSS
08:28:19 [fsasaki]
.. for tables, fitures, sidebars, ...
08:28:29 [fsasaki]
.. really complex content that we lay out with CSS
08:28:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
08:29:13 [fsasaki]
.. in general we do a template based approach
08:30:06 [fsasaki]
phil: we are a general publisher
08:30:16 [fsasaki]
.. we have very different business models in publishing
08:30:19 [Emma]
Emma has joined #owpworkflow
08:30:25 [fsasaki]
.. our authors, editors, ... are very creative
08:30:47 [fsasaki]
.. they don't want to have standards - e.g. what you just showed (the template) is not something that they want to use
08:31:04 [fsasaki]
adam: absolutely - our approach is only one approach
08:31:22 [fsasaki]
.. you have to consider what the best tool is for your business / authors etc.
08:31:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
08:32:36 [fsasaki]
adam: limitations of the CSS workflow:
08:32:54 [fsasaki]
.. there is a depdendency on commercial PDF processors for professional quality books
08:33:08 [fsasaki]
.. complex layouts and two-page spreads can be difficult
08:33:27 [fsasaki]
.. we did not design our own enginge because it is some very serious engineering
08:33:59 [fsasaki]
.. example of what is currently discussed in w3c
08:34:23 [fsasaki]
.. you want to say: I have a note on the left page like ... , and on the right page like ...
08:34:27 [fsasaki]
.. you cannot do this today
08:34:49 [fsasaki]
.. moving ahead: publishers need to use CSS and provide feedback
08:35:06 [fsasaki]
.. there needs to be support for newer modules: exclusion, regions, grid layout
08:35:23 [fsasaki]
.. template approach is great, but we need to move on and push things to the limits
08:36:20 [fsasaki]
ivan: in the workflow that you had before - how do you handle aspects like review
08:36:41 [fsasaki]
.. many publishers still use word since this gives them that reviewing functionality
08:36:54 [fsasaki]
adam: some use word, some use other options I don't have control of
08:37:09 [fsasaki]
.. some use PDF annotations, or versioning control via git
08:37:52 [fsasaki]
adam: showing again the docbook based model with various output
08:38:35 [fsasaki]
.. we realized that we were producing 4 different versions of HTML - we did not plan that, it happened organically
08:39:26 [fsasaki]
.. the question came up: why do we need docbook?
08:39:42 [fsasaki]
.. we started thinking about using HTML natively
08:40:01 [fsasaki]
.. big benefits: simplifies the document transformation layer
08:40:15 [fsasaki]
.. aligns our toolset with other things on the web
08:40:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
08:41:18 [fsasaki]
adam: lessons learned of docbook:
08:41:29 [fsasaki]
.. most authors don't want to work with XML
08:41:38 [fsasaki]
.. docbook had a valuable community
08:42:07 [fsasaki]
.. a single source content model is valuable for regenrating digital books & easy to adapt to new digital book formats
08:42:28 [fsasaki]
.. so single source publishing model is very important - and we came up with HTMLBook
08:42:51 [fsasaki]
adam reading from readme at
08:43:35 [fsasaki]
adam: it is not a standard. It has an XML Schema with it. It is a way of semantically describing publishing in HTML
08:43:48 [fsasaki]
.. do publishers need a schema?
08:44:16 [fsasaki]
.. you may want to write a specific HTML model and handle HTML & CSS for every book
08:44:30 [fsasaki]
.. we don't do that and work with just one model & schema
08:44:55 [fsasaki]
... docbook is giving us a rich way to describe everything, from foot notes to UI items
08:45:16 [fsasaki]
.. we needed a way to do it: should we just use class or data-* attributes?
08:45:40 [fsasaki]
.. data-* is a wildcard - you can do what you want with them
08:47:46 [fsasaki]
adam: problem with class is that authors may want to use it for their own purposes
08:48:07 [fsasaki]
adam: some ongoing work - wish people would use it and give us feedback
08:48:22 [Emma]
Emma has joined #owpworkflow
08:48:28 [fsasaki]
jirka: in HTMLBook are you using this directly for ePub?
08:48:40 [fsasaki]
.. or are you modifying markup?
08:48:58 [fsasaki]
adam: we use HTML directly. When we create ePub we add some metadata, that is it
08:49:40 [fsasaki]
markus: scripting transformation - how will that be set up?
08:49:48 [fsasaki]
adam: some XSLT, ruby, python ...
08:50:13 [fsasaki]
markus: there are many different flavours that many groups are doing now
08:50:43 [fsasaki]
.. e.g. ePub 3.1 we discussed that too - the HTML WG said that data-* is not for cross platform stuff
08:53:44 [fsasaki]
adam: now on "Atlas" platform
08:54:02 [fsasaki]
.. for authoring on top of HTML that I have described
08:54:10 [fsasaki]
adam showing authoring interface
08:54:25 [fsasaki]
adam: there are many HTML editors out now
08:54:30 [fsasaki]
.. they are updating really good
08:54:39 [astearns]
Atlas currently only available in private beta?
08:54:44 [fsasaki]
.. we modified an editor to use our schema
08:55:04 [fsasaki]
.. an author would never see the schema stuff unless she wants to
08:55:14 [fsasaki]
.. about using git with atlas:
08:55:34 [fsasaki]
.. author clones down book project to local writing environment
08:55:51 [fsasaki]
.. author writes in HTML, markdown, or AsciiDoc and pushes files back to Atlas
08:56:11 [fsasaki]
.. Atlas transforms files to HTMLBook and builds book formats
08:56:47 [Fil]
08:56:48 [fsasaki]
Adam showing a visualization
08:57:07 [Fil]
HTLMBook spec
08:57:45 [fsasaki]
adam: github also helps with change handling
08:58:11 [fsasaki]
.. but this depends also on the authors themselves, i.e. whether they use it or not
08:58:23 [fsasaki]
.. one author wrote some javascript and css and interactive widgit
08:58:54 [fsasaki]
.. we let the author embbeed that in an iFrame and that appears in an online version
08:59:02 [fsasaki]
.. but it does not appear in the print version
08:59:08 [Fil]
atlas (better url given by @figoblog)
08:59:20 [fsasaki]
.. once you are writing in HTML you are opening up other opportunities
08:59:43 [fsasaki]
bill: concept of authors writing in HTML
08:59:49 [fsasaki]
.. millions do because they blog
09:00:07 [fsasaki]
.. I am less interested in the concept of wordpress as pagemaker, than wordpress as word
09:00:13 [fsasaki]
adam: I don't see a problem, that is fine
09:01:38 [fsasaki]
bbb: as a community we failed by not spreading version control more for people
09:01:49 [fsasaki]
.. outside software developers only the wiki community is doing version control
09:01:54 [fsasaki]
.. and in a limited way
09:02:06 [fsasaki]
.. we should produce people frindly diffs and images
09:02:20 [fsasaki]
.. the movement e.g. of images and review of changes is usually a nightmare
09:02:36 [fsasaki]
.. if we would train people with version control it would be a nightmare
09:03:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
09:03:21 [fsasaki]
liam: there is a change tracking markup community group at w3c
09:03:41 [fsasaki]
09:03:48 [fsasaki]
liam: dealing with such topics
09:04:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
09:34:22 [Jirka]
Jirka has joined #owpworkflow
09:34:25 [newt]
newt has joined #owpworkflow
09:34:48 [bert_]
bert_ has joined #owpworkflow
09:37:22 [plinss_]
plinss_ has joined #owpworkflow
09:40:09 [Dave_Cramer]
Dave_Cramer has joined #owpworkflow
09:41:20 [liam]
Topic: Panel: Using the Web as it Stands
09:41:36 [mgylling]
mgylling has joined #owpworkflow
09:41:47 [rdeltour]
rdeltour has joined #owpworkflow
09:42:09 [bert_]
Topic: Using HTML 5 as it Stands
09:42:13 [fsasaki]
fsasaki has joined #owpworkflow
09:42:20 [bert_]
Scribe: Bert
09:42:33 [bert_]
[penellists introduce themselves]
09:42:49 [fsasaki]
09:44:14 [glazou]
glazou has joined #owpworkflow
09:44:14 [yamamoto]
yamamoto has joined #owpworkflow
09:46:09 [bert_]
Robin: HTML in books not a good idea.
09:46:43 [bert_]
... Leads to debugging, problems, brittle. HTML DOM and XML DOM differences.
09:46:48 [kawabata]
kawabata has joined #owpworkflow
09:47:41 [karen]
karen has joined #owpworkflow
09:48:13 [bert_]
Scribe: Karen
09:48:18 [karen]
Robin: We can actually use both together
09:48:29 [karen]
...Idea is to agree as community to use HTML in published, final formats
09:48:39 [karen]
...and integrate fully into Web
09:48:52 [karen]
...Move on to next presenters unless there are questions
09:48:58 [karen]
Next Speaker: Adam Hyde
09:49:22 [karen]
Adam: I'm Adam Hyde, you can find me at
09:49:28 [karen]
...I have been involved in book publishing
09:49:38 [karen]
...using community book publishing
09:49:56 [karen]
...Book Sprint methodology to print books in 3-5 days
09:50:04 [liam]
[for FLOSS, free/libre/open source software documentation]
09:50:04 [karen] ePub, Mobi...
09:50:09 [karen]
...rely on fast technologies
09:50:14 [karen]
...the browser is solution
09:50:21 [karen]
...should be the production and design environment
09:50:32 [karen]
...and also the renderer to create PDF using HTML
09:50:50 [karen]
...The books for methodology will be online shortly
09:51:09 [karen]
...Books for methodology relies on output quickly for use
09:51:19 [karen]
...have been using open source technologies for the rendering
09:51:24 [karen]
...rely on open source
09:51:36 [karen]
...looked at @ and pisa (sp?)
09:51:42 [karen]
...used PDf for a while
09:51:45 [karen]
...then used CSS
09:51:55 [karen]
...render PDF to render content in the browser
09:51:59 [karen]
...with tables of contents
09:52:07 [karen]
...relied on page generated content model
09:52:12 [karen]
...relied on JS, found @
09:52:17 [karen]
...create content in HTML
09:52:23 [karen]
..push button and get content formatted
09:52:30 [karen]
...right click PDF and get 1:1
09:52:42 [karen]
...printing press in terms of creating print is click JS
09:52:44 [karen] source
09:52:49 [karen]
...have a lot of advantes
09:52:57 [karen]
...get ePub as a gif
09:53:07 [karen]
...anything you can see in browser you can see in PDF
09:53:11 [karen]
...can make interactive presentations
09:53:20 [karen]
...and correlate to online
09:53:24 [karen]
...using browser itself
09:53:36 [karen]
...use to solve book problems
09:53:46 [karen]
[slide with list]
09:54:06 [karen]
...Even JS takes algorithms
09:54:11 [karen]'s all available right now with JS
09:54:19 [karen]
...have been doing a year
09:54:29 [karen]
...Last point is I don't know where publishers are right now
09:54:36 [karen]
...If Gutenberg had put everything online
09:54:47 [karen]
...eventually publishers would invest in this
09:55:01 [karen]
...publishers should be contributing to browser development and contributing
09:55:03 [karen]
...a little about me
09:55:08 [karen]
...thank you
09:55:41 [karen]
Next Speaker: Tony Graham, Mentea
09:56:19 [karen]
Tony: Liam said the title of this panel is deliberately open-ended
09:56:43 [karen]
...I put as a target format
09:57:00 [karen]
...a couple days ago Wikipedia had banner about fifth most popular site
09:57:11 [karen]
...ASCII doc with markdown, etc.
09:57:20 [karen]
...part of this is HTML5 converted to HTML5
09:57:25 [karen]
...I was at Balisage presentation
09:57:39 [karen]
...where Sanders @ talked about HTMLBook from O'Reilly
09:57:53 [karen]
....he stressed the XSLT side, not the Ruby side of it
09:58:09 [sgalineau]
sgalineau has joined #owpworkflow
09:58:22 [karen]
...What I tend to see..
09:58:30 [karen]
...archive format...
09:58:44 [karen]
...XSLT could be used to produce static HTML5 pages
09:58:54 [karen]
...there is also option to do XSLT2.0 in the browser
09:58:58 [karen]
....just loads
09:59:05 [karen]
...and do thinkgs on the web page
09:59:19 [karen]
...@ has a demo showing how to play chess
09:59:30 [karen]
....Example showing what it can do entirely in XSLT
09:59:38 [karen]
...respond to user events
09:59:48 [karen]
...Other things I see things for HTML5 is validator
09:59:52 [karen]
...things to do with actually data
10:00:18 [karen]
...perhaps O'Reilly is not doing journals, but can validate parts of the content; and ISO standards for scientific journal
10:00:25 [Eric]
Eric has joined #OWPWORKFLOW
10:00:29 [karen]
...journal publishers are worried about such things
10:00:34 [karen]
...Of course it can be styled
10:00:44 [karen]
...I transformed it
10:00:52 [karen]
...Elizabethan Ruby
10:01:03 [karen] illustrates part of problem we have with HTML
10:01:11 [karen] lost some of it; had to modify the transform
10:01:21 [karen]
...modify the structure
10:01:36 [karen] do more with what I needed: HTML5 was not enough to do the styling
10:02:13 [karen]
Next Speaker: Gerry Leonidas
10:02:31 [karen]
Gerry: I come from a university with a long tradition in typography
10:02:43 [karen]
....most of technologists and people from publishing organizations
10:02:49 [karen]
...have nothing to do with Gutenberg
10:02:58 [karen]
...typography is mostly 19th century
10:03:04 [karen]
...and extends into 20th
10:03:14 [karen] and journal typograpy has not changed that much
10:03:17 [stearns_]
stearns_ has joined #owpworkflow
10:03:19 [karen]
...have to look to graphic design
10:03:43 [karen]
...I don't see many people here whose job it is to translate this into language that technologists and publishers understand
10:03:50 [karen]
...a problem as you open up @
10:03:55 [karen]
10:04:03 [karen]
...don't ask people what they want idea
10:04:08 [karen] of working at university
10:04:16 [karen]
...we said let's not do what O'Reilly does
10:04:29 [karen]
...let's find the most difficult problems to fix
10:04:38 [karen]
...Left is classical Greek lexicon
10:04:55 [karen]
....written in XML and we styled output for precise typography
10:04:58 [karen]
...has loaded meanings
10:05:15 [karen]
...On the other hand, we have a HenryV edition of Shakespear
10:05:21 [karen]
...different levels of annotation and mark-u[p
10:05:27 [karen] can rely on audience to parse this
10:05:36 [karen]
...and understand which is text and which is annotation
10:05:42 [karen]
...what is missing is the model for typesetting
10:05:47 [karen]
...we have tried to do this online
10:05:57 [karen]
...with Typecast, a Monotype company now
10:05:59 [karen]
...You can do it
10:06:09 [karen]
...problem is that this is not responsive
10:06:16 [karen]
...difficult for text books
10:06:25 [karen]
...we tried to figure out these types of problems
10:06:32 [karen]
...sequencing and @...hierarchies
10:06:42 [karen]
...break it out to these things and a number of levels
10:06:49 [karen]
...the sticking point
10:07:07 [karen]
...we can develop a model that both can understand is the authoring environment
10:07:15 [karen]
....Word was not invented to produce complex documents
10:07:19 [karen]
...and yet it was produced
10:07:24 [karen]
...equivalent is WordPress
10:07:35 [karen]
...linear structure; not good to do HenryV
10:07:43 [karen]
...Markdown...good for simple hierarchies
10:08:03 [karen]
....simple tools
10:08:45 [karen]
...We have done a generalized model
10:08:58 [karen]
...that gives one of nine levels of priority in each element and a sequence in a chain
10:09:05 [karen]
...focusing on a paragraph; in P level
10:09:11 [karen]
...working with Typecast
10:09:25 [karen] simple proofing environment; looks extremely simple
10:09:31 [karen]
...I'll stop there
10:10:02 [karen]
Next Speaker: Philippe Riviere
10:10:14 [karen]
Philippe: I am a journalist and a technologist
10:10:20 [karen]
...I was doing web site and journalism
10:10:29 [karen]
...I don't like to call it a content management system
10:10:40 [karen]
...but I wrote this with friends and we use it internally
10:10:49 [karen]
...we take exports from Quark
10:11:00 [karen]
...and port them into SQ data base to create scripts
10:11:05 [karen]
...from this to publish ebooks
10:11:15 [karen]
...take the HTML pages and prepare a book with them
10:11:20 [karen]
...First we tried to make a mobile app
10:11:28 [karen]
...then we realized that our work was not advancing software
10:11:34 [karen]
...had bugs on every platform
10:11:38 [karen]
...more about content
10:11:42 [karen] we went to ebooks
10:11:51 [karen]
...the challenges was to respect the news hierarchy
10:12:02 [karen]
...journal is not just a collection of articles
10:12:08 [karen]
...there is an information hierarchy
10:12:13 [karen]
...front news, news sections
10:12:20 [karen]
...all of this is disappearing on web site
10:12:30 [karen]
...I wanted to record the structure in a mobile app and ebooks
10:12:41 [karen]
...and still go with HTML, CSS
10:12:48 [karen] page is table of contents; series of links
10:12:50 [karen]
...two chapers
10:13:03 [karen]
....chapter can be an article or a service page
10:13:14 [karen]
...We list the chapters and a script goes to fetch each chapter
10:13:21 [karen]
...Inside each chapter is CMS
10:13:27 [karen]
...just knows the author of the pages
10:13:45 [karen]
...@ was poorly documented
10:13:56 [karen]
...we lost a lot of time figuring out these things; special files
10:14:05 [karen]
...This is our result
10:14:11 [karen]
...system on iPad
10:14:24 [karen]
...we have nice typography which is the biggest challenge with ebooks
10:14:30 [karen]
....we tried to do our best here
10:14:36 [karen]
...We just recently produced an ebook
10:14:41 [karen] our archives
10:14:47 [karen]
...go from May 1954
10:14:54 [karen]
...we can now publish ebooks
10:14:57 [karen]
...very simple thing
10:14:59 [karen]
...thank you
10:15:08 [karen]
Robin: Thank you for all those presentations
10:15:13 [karen]
...are there any questions in the room?
10:15:46 [karen]
Emile: Do publishers know how and what technologies
10:15:54 [karen]
...I teach a strategic course in London
10:16:13 [karen]
...web technologies are basis for book publishing technologies
10:16:23 [karen]
...they don't know what HTML is, what a mark-up language is
10:16:31 [karen]
...these are people involved in strategy at publishing houses
10:16:41 [karen]
Nic: that is what I have found
10:16:44 [karen]
...same situation
10:16:57 [karen]
...what I find frustrating is that you see expensive work-arounds in tool sets
10:17:04 [karen]
...if they would put a toe in, would be great
10:17:07 [karen]'s not so tricky
10:17:11 [Dave_Cramer]
s/Emile/Emily Gibson/
10:17:15 [karen]
...I am hoping we can convince some publishers
10:17:34 [karen]
Emily: have to start from first principles every time; has been ten years
10:17:42 [karen]
Robin: a decade not so much in technology
10:17:53 [karen]
@: Practical thing
10:18:02 [karen]
10:18:23 [karen]
Bill Kasdorf, Apex: I am sensitive to everyone in organization to 'get this'
10:18:28 [karen]
...start talking first about vocabulary
10:18:34 [karen]
...what do you call them, what are the pieces
10:18:40 [Emma]
Emma has joined #owpworkflow
10:18:42 [karen]
...then people who know mark-up can translate it
10:18:53 [karen]
...but if you start with mark-up you get deer in headlights reaction
10:19:02 [karen]
...I worked with a large client with diverse publications
10:19:09 [karen]
...first reaction was there is no way we can get SML
10:19:11 [karen]
10:19:17 [karen]
...we have these and these and other things
10:19:19 [karen]
...Tell me the parts
10:19:27 [liam]
10:19:31 [karen]
...we took A, then took B, then C, completely different
10:19:36 [karen]
...semantically they are the same things
10:19:46 [karen]
...they cannot see that semantically these are the same
10:19:59 [karen]
...then they understand separation of presentation and content
10:20:05 [karen]
Daniel: problems of HTML based tool chain
10:20:21 [karen] there is no WYSIWYG for the masses
10:20:31 [karen]
....write docs, submit to publishers
10:20:40 [karen]
....format data as if like Word
10:20:46 [karen]
...but not care about the technologies inside
10:20:59 [karen]
...someone writer should not have to care about HTML, epub
10:21:07 [karen]
...we don't have a tool yet for the masses
10:21:12 [karen]
Nic: I would disagree with that
10:21:19 [karen]
...If you look at GoogleDocs
10:21:21 [karen]
...example of that
10:21:26 [karen]
...I am not advocating that
10:21:35 [karen]
...GoogleDocs is a solution within W3C
10:21:42 [karen]
s/Nic/Adam Hyde
10:21:52 [karen]
Adam: look at demos, they are amazing
10:21:57 [karen] of things liberating it
10:22:04 [karen]
...has opened up opportunities
10:22:16 [karen]
Daniel: Maybe we are living in too geeky an environment
10:22:21 [karen]
...ask them about GoogleDocs
10:22:35 [karen]
Leonard: I think there are tools
10:22:37 [karen]
...I showed one
10:22:44 [karen]
...people are thinking about things
10:22:48 [karen]
...take a step back
10:22:58 [karen]
...content production used to be a specialist
10:22:59 [bert_]
10:23:06 [karen]
..and no relation for how things exists
10:23:10 [karen]
...very short period
10:23:12 [Em]
Em has joined #owpworkflow
10:23:21 [karen] produce content at proofing stage to mimic how things look
10:23:32 [karen]
...we have not decided minimum level of what people need to know
10:23:42 [karen] what is bare minimum of what people need to know to drive a car
10:23:51 [karen]
...A lot of people doing this are more my age
10:24:01 [karen]
...with other references
10:24:14 [karen] generation need to train to think about what needs to be visible
10:24:35 [karen]
...I think there is a big problem with GoogleDocs because it answers the problem of the previous technology
10:24:44 [karen]
...why would GoogleDocs have a page break?
10:24:50 [karen]
...why should it print?
10:25:08 [karen]
@: Two comments; translating structures into things that mean something is important
10:25:11 [glazou]
who's speaking ?
10:25:13 [karen]
...have to get back to their vocabulary
10:25:22 [karen]
...we worked with K12 teachers in South Africa
10:25:32 [karen]
...used an editor that was close to wzywig
10:25:41 [karen]
...they could cut and paste the note, a whole exercise
10:25:53 [karen]
...translation from Word or @ was affordable
10:26:01 [karen]
@/Kathy Fletcher
10:26:13 [karen]
@: Concept of wzywig
10:26:30 [karen]
...they see something that looks like what they want at the end; but it masks the semantics
10:26:39 [karen]
....should have 'what you see is what you mean'
10:26:45 [karen]
...need something that shows the semantics
10:26:54 [karen]
...may look bad but is easy to use and understand
10:26:55 [bert_]
s/@/Pierre Thierry/
10:27:07 [karen]
Bill: one addition
10:27:11 [karen] production workflows
10:27:16 [karen]
...people do have that semantic rendering
10:27:29 [karen]
....use false colored rendering to see what is not in print; need to move that upstream
10:27:38 [karen]
Alan Stearns, Adobe: I edit the @
10:27:46 [karen]
...glad to hear bookJS has worked for you
10:27:54 [bert_]
s/@/CSS Regions spec/
10:27:59 [karen]
...have to go through JS library defvelopment is annoying
10:28:12 [karen] you use library you will find out what you will need...from the technologies in the browser
10:28:18 [karen]
Adam: I would like to respond
10:28:32 [karen]
....CSS regents was amazing presentation
10:28:40 [karen]
....change on fly
10:28:50 [karen]'s an awesome implementation
10:28:59 [bert_]
10:29:03 [karen]
...and we have learned a lot about book production by going down dead ends
10:29:10 [karen] to people about the possibilities
10:29:16 [karen]
...people outside publishing are gaining
10:29:24 [karen]
...thanks for CSS Regions
10:29:38 [karen]
@: I confirm that our authors know
10:29:42 [kathi-fletcher]
what does gcpm stand for?
10:29:47 [karen] do not transcript the structure
10:29:58 [glazou]
Generated Content for Paged Media
10:30:03 [karen]
...H1, end of the paragraph itself
10:30:09 [karen]
...but introduce a high level hierarchy
10:30:16 [karen]
...and have it at beginning of the next H1
10:30:27 [karen]
...if we had a tool to capture this structure would be useful
10:30:35 [karen]
Robin: content and the structure
10:30:51 [karen]
Dave Cramer: I don't think we have a well established vocabulary for these elements
10:30:52 [liam]
[wanting something like content-editable but for structure as well as for content]
10:30:58 [karen] a novel there may be a blank line
10:31:00 [karen]
...a few firms
10:31:08 [karen]
...use differently across boundaries and publishing houses
10:31:10 [bert_]
s/content and the structure/sort of contentEditable but for structure, not mark-up/
10:31:15 [karen]
...have not been made universal enough
10:31:28 [karen]
Todd: Bill, a question for you
10:31:37 [karen]
...How many times have we tried to develop that semantic language
10:31:42 [karen]
Bill: 3752
10:31:48 [karen]
...that does not mean it's futile
10:31:56 [karen]
...different interest groups have more in common
10:32:01 [karen] kind of need to start there
10:32:11 [karen]
...I work mostly with book and journal people
10:32:18 [karen]
...anyone in magazine world know what a deck is
10:32:23 [karen] also useful for books
10:32:30 [karen]
s/Todd/Todd Carpenter, NISO
10:32:36 [karen]
Robin: information about lunch?
10:32:46 [karen]
Liam: Lunch is "thataway"
10:33:00 [karen]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:33:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karen
10:33:10 [karen]
...Come back in one hour and 23 minutes or sooner
10:33:20 [karen]
...Take your laptops, mobile phones
10:33:28 [karen]
...there is a sign up sheet for dinner venues
10:33:36 [karen]
Robin: thanks to the panelists
10:33:43 [karen]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:33:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karen
11:55:46 [plinss_]
plinss_ has joined #owpworkflow
12:00:04 [rdeltour]
rdeltour has joined #owpworkflow
12:09:40 [bert_]
bert_ has joined #owpworkflow
12:10:07 [Emma]
Emma has joined #owpworkflow
12:10:16 [glazou]
glazou has joined #owpworkflow
12:10:25 [Dave_Cramer]
Dave_Cramer has joined #owpworkflow
12:10:48 [fsasaki]
fsasaki has joined #owpworkflow
12:11:44 [mgylling]
mgylling has joined #owpworkflow
12:12:01 [Em]
Em has joined #owpworkflow
12:12:27 [fsasaki]
topic: Panel: Web technologies, authoring and Workflow
12:12:30 [Em]
Scribing on iPad
12:12:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
12:12:48 [Em]
12:12:54 [fsasaki]
scribe: Em
12:13:42 [Em]
Afternoon session first up is ...
12:14:23 [yamamoto]
yamamoto has joined #owpworkflow
12:14:43 [Em]
Jirka kosek speaking about IT'S
12:15:26 [Em]
ITS 2.0 - metadata annotations
12:15:28 [fsasaki]
s/IT'S/ITS 2.0/
12:15:34 [Fil]
Fil has joined #owpworkflow
12:15:37 [MoZ]
MoZ has joined #owpworkflow
12:15:54 [Em]
30-40-50 languages automated metadata language translation
12:16:06 [kawabata]
kawabata has joined #owpworkflow
12:16:12 [fsasaki]
s/30-40-50/Jirka: 30-40-50/
12:16:15 [Em]
ITS2.0 makes translation task easier and more effective
12:16:32 [Karen]
Karen has joined #owpworkflow
12:16:59 [Em]
Originally developed for XML but 2.0 specification can also be used for html5
12:18:18 [fsasaki]
s/2.0/ITS 2.0/
12:18:20 [Em]
ITS namespace attributes eg foie gras in the middle of English text that should not be translated
12:18:42 [Em]
As html5 does not have support for namespaces a different approach needs to be taken
12:18:59 [Em]
Problems to be addressed
12:19:37 [liam]
liam has joined #owpworkflow
12:19:59 [Em]
1) ITS not just inline markup but css selectors cannot replace xpath
12:21:21 [fsasaki]
s/xpath/xpath e.g. because only with xpath you can address attributes/
12:21:27 [fsasaki]
[ FYI, the w3c validator has been updated to allow its-* validation, see an validation example here ]
12:21:40 [Em]
2) html5 extensibility for additional metadata
12:22:10 [Em]
3) html5 cannot embed XML as additional metadata
12:22:23 [Em]
One proposed solution is to use json
12:22:30 [fsasaki]
[see a "data island" example here ]
12:22:39 [Em]
Workflow problems:
12:23:21 [Em]
1) export/import to cms - no existing standards
12:24:07 [fsasaki]
s/standards/standards to describe a complex export/import scenario including translation workflow/
12:24:23 [Em]
question: do not understand point 1 A: css selectors cannot address attributes only elements
12:24:53 [Em]
You can select elements with some attributes attach to them but you cannot select attributes themselves
12:25:18 [liam]
[ you can select an element having a title attribute, but you can only select elements in CSS, not attributes ]
12:25:36 [Em]
You cannot select the node attribute, you can only select the elements or parts of the elements
12:25:42 [fsasaki]
[xpath example assuming html default namespace: //img/@alt . Attach information e.g. that "alt" needs some special handling during translation]
12:26:39 [fsasaki]
s/Attach/Scenario is to attach/
12:27:03 [sgalineau]
sgalineau has joined #owpworkflow
12:27:09 [fjh]
fjh has joined #owpworkflow
12:27:21 [Em]
q: what is the problem with using xpath and CSS...
12:27:39 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
12:27:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
12:28:27 [Em]
Next presentation Tomas 4d concept
12:28:41 [Jirka]
Jirka has joined #owpworkflow
12:29:03 [Em]
Experts in documentation and engineering towards ideal online XML editor for print, digital and other streams
12:29:55 [Em]
Newspapers, magazines, all kinds of publications
12:30:12 [Em]
Industry as well as publishing
12:30:55 [Em]
Different kinds of XML inputs are used including open office, word, HTML, etc
12:31:24 [Em]
It wasn't as comfortable as we had imagined so we created our own authoring tool of
12:31:29 [Em]
12:31:47 [Em]
Using xslt for all kinds of output
12:32:34 [Em]
First we tried xmax - very efficient, but compatibility issues with Internet explorer and other tools
12:32:35 [darobin]
darobin has joined #owpworkflow
12:33:24 [Em]
Then we tried CK but we had to rebuild the tool for every DTD every customer provided us
12:34:00 [Em]
So we built a tool that is very good for simple content, XMS author
12:34:29 [Em]
It is XML with pretty CSS on it so that authors with no interest in XML can use it
12:34:50 [Em]
It is connected to a database where authors can pick up images or other bits of text
12:35:24 [Em]
It is developed around oXygen with some widgets to align with oxygen components and word style toolbar
12:35:24 [stearns_]
stearns_ has joined #owpworkflow
12:35:42 [Em]
*word like toolbar
12:36:29 [Em]
XSLT, CSS2+, MathML, web services like svg etc
12:36:36 [Emma]
Emma has joined #owpworkflow
12:37:14 [Em]
[example of output printed file - a colour page with image and recipe]
12:38:09 [Em]
Close - description of codex reader (epub3 reader for ios and android platforms, with fixed layout or reflow able layout)
12:38:57 [Em]
Next - Nic Gibson who has written some HTML that is not portable so has to display from own laptop
12:39:26 [Em]
Corbas works for publishers workflow plus XML hackery
12:40:01 [Em]
One of the things we can say is that simple text is pretty much a solved problem
12:40:23 [Em]
But there is some really big problems with complex text, eg legal, educational
12:40:41 [Dave_Cramer]
There are no simple texts ;)
12:41:02 [Em]
Too difficult for HTML markup but XML is required for certain more difficult texts
12:41:30 [Em]
The difference is that XML is required for structured content with specialised tools
12:41:34 [Em]
Unfortunately this
12:41:45 [Em]
Is not used by authors
12:42:14 [Em]
Authors write totally linear which makes XML authoring fail in almost every general case
12:42:42 [Em]
We are requiring that authors use XML because we can process if
12:42:48 [Em]
12:43:23 [Luc]
Luc has joined #OWPWORKFLOW
12:43:42 [Em]
MS Word is a truly awful product but authors like it for the very reasons that we dislike it - they can simply make sthg bold
12:44:06 [Em]
We are talking about a very small subset here but one that will grow - currently on ly pop
12:44:13 [Em]
12:44:30 [Em]
35% of students read digitally
12:44:52 [Em]
The challenge is complex text
12:45:09 [Em]
We need to make CSS work for these challenging texts
12:46:00 [Em]
We need to allow authors to write linearly and then get the structure right (footnotes, sidebars, etc)
12:46:48 [Em]
We need to think about the things that authors need - we need to let them use just enough structure when writing and not disrupt the flow
12:47:13 [Em]
Make authors comfortable while writing
12:48:00 [Em]
The next challenge is editing, where the concept of final proofs is very late in the process
12:48:25 [Em]
As soon as the layout needs to be done by hand the XML system breaks
12:48:45 [sgalineau]
sgalineau has joined #owpworkflow
12:50:09 [Jirka]
Jirka has joined #owpworkflow
12:50:17 [Em]
Comment: from publishers association, is this about print or digital layout too?
12:50:46 [Em]
Answer: this is about both or it won't be cost effective for publishers
12:51:11 [Em]
Right now converting to digital post print version isn't working very well
12:51:56 [Em]
Problem: publishers are not involved, there are only two publishers involved right now
12:52:24 [Em]
Problem: there is only a small subset of people interested in this and they will not join the w3c
12:52:32 [Jirka_]
Jirka_ has joined #owpworkflow
12:52:44 [Em]
Publishers are outsourcing often to people who are in this room
12:53:02 [Troere]
Troere has joined #OWPWORKFLOW
12:53:06 [Em]
q: what is your strategy for making pubs
12:53:11 [Em]
12:53:42 [Em]
A: we point out the risks of not understanding eg your books being taken down from amazon
12:54:12 [Em]
Also that you can create this yourself and save money if you start in the right place
12:55:01 [Em]
Q: in w3c the point is that up until a couple of months ago this was an internal w3c discussion
12:55:21 [Em]
The publishers have joined recently and there are more coming on board
12:56:06 [Em]
Comment: hachette problem is training, education, etc and that is a process, there is a cost attached and it is a slow evolution
12:56:53 [Em]
Karen Meyers w3c role is to do outreach - tv and media were at this point three years ago
12:57:35 [Em]
They are looking for training programmes for publishing communities
12:58:44 [Em]
Q is there a shift to have authors do more where publishers used to do layout etc
12:59:15 [Em]
A publishers used to outsource things they understood now they outsource things because they do not understand
12:59:36 [Em]
Not necessary towards authors but away from publishers
12:59:37 [ivan]
ivan has joined #owpworkflow
13:00:30 [Em]
Comment about what authors are exited about eg drag and drop bibliographies
13:00:45 [Em]
Comment about usability andaccess
13:00:46 [Em]
13:00:59 [Em]
*accessibility - needing to get it right
13:01:37 [Em]
Comment Accessibility benefits everyone eg separating content and structure helps the author understand the structure better too
13:01:38 [fjh]
s/Q is there a shift/fjh: Q is there a shift/
13:03:07 [Em]
Comment there are no outsourced companies suggesting HTML composition to our publishing group because the quality is not good enough and we have that in print
13:03:47 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:03:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
13:04:43 [Em]
Comment that we have a lot of problems with semantic understanding and integration of rdf and owl different content on different platforms
13:04:49 [Em]
13:04:52 [Em]
13:05:26 [Em]
Publishers struggle with XML they will not have any knowledge of rdf and owl
13:05:55 [Em]
Q if word is such a low bar why are we trying to try
13:06:21 [Em]
Create new skins for Word
13:07:28 [Em]
Word is not very extensible but authors still have word at their disposal so we are dependent on word as the original content editor
13:07:31 [fjh]
s/ fjh emacs is extensible//
13:08:36 [Em]
Word can be extended as an editing environment by exporting
13:09:12 [Em]
Approach of "carrots not sticks" from authors all the way through to production staff at oreilly
13:09:58 [Troere]
Troere has joined #OWPWORKFLOW
13:10:12 [Em]
Eg authors can publish instantly including errata or can collaborate in real time with your co authors sorry for losing your word but you do get these other things instead
13:11:17 [Em]
Build a platform that will give authors a one to one representation of what they write to what they are selling
13:11:35 [Em]
Authors become self correcting
13:12:14 [Em]
Final point - we need to extend CSS for composition
13:12:54 [Em]
We should be able to do the composition with declarative controls
13:13:23 [Em]
We would like use cases and feedback to the steering group
13:13:35 [Em]
13:14:19 [Em]
(Aside: I would not recommend scribing on an iPad - autocorrect is a nightmare!)
13:31:21 [troere]
troere has joined #OWPWORKFLOW
13:35:43 [Jirka]
Jirka has joined #owpworkflow
13:35:47 [Jirka]
scribe: Jirka
13:35:58 [Jirka]
topic: Panel: Standards Bodies: Who does what? (moderator: Ivan Herman, W3C)
13:36:13 [Jirka]
Ivan Herman: introduces panel
13:36:32 [glazou]
glazou has joined #owpworkflow
13:36:51 [Jirka]
Christina Mussinelli:
13:36:58 [newt]
newt has joined #owpworkflow
13:37:16 [Jirka]
standards are important also for book distribution
13:37:20 [Fil_]
Fil_ has joined #owpworkflow
13:37:46 [Jirka]
information and product flows
13:38:12 [Jirka]
Standards in publishing all listed
13:38:19 [Jirka]
13:39:09 [stearns_]
stearns_ has joined #owpworkflow
13:39:28 [Luc]
Luc has joined #OWPWORKFLOW
13:39:46 [Jirka]
Christine explains ISBN
13:40:13 [Jirka]
Actionable ISBN
13:41:59 [Jirka]
Bill Kasdorf from Apex
13:42:25 [Jirka]
Bill speaks about aligning standards
13:43:41 [Jirka]
EPUB3 is based on HTML5
13:44:11 [Jirka]
But HTML5 is not final standard yet, but EPUB3 needs to b
13:45:19 [rdeltour]
rdeltour has joined #owpworkflow
13:46:13 [Jirka]
EPUB3 uses approach where open things are left to HTML5
13:49:19 [Jirka]
Jirka has joined #owpworkflow
13:49:47 [mgylling]
mgylling has joined #owpworkflow
13:50:00 [Jirka]
Aligning magazines with EPUB3
13:51:20 [Jirka]
Mentions nextPub, PSV (PRISM Source Vocabulary) and OpenEFT (Enhanced for Tablet)
13:53:04 [Jirka]
Overlapping Organizations
13:54:17 [Jirka]
There are several different organizations working on issue related to EPUB, metadata, accessibility
13:57:45 [Jirka]
A lot of metadata is defined in vocabularies
13:58:48 [Jirka]
In future Pearson will use semantic HTML5 from authoring to production
13:59:05 [Jirka]
Presentation is handled by XSLT + CSS
14:00:47 [Jirka]
Output will be EPUB3
14:01:16 [Jirka]
Bill Wagner, Printer Working Group: Introduced PWG
14:02:17 [Jirka]
PWG makes standards in printer area: eg. IEEE 1284, IPP, XHTML/CSS-Print, ...
14:04:11 [Jirka]
Areas that needs improvement: page rendering and job ticketing
14:06:43 [Jirka]
Proposal for job tickets in CSS and XSL-FO
14:08:34 [Luc]
it's all about printing
14:09:12 [plinss_]
plinss_ has joined #owpworkflow
14:09:43 [Luc]
and printer also use new technologies
14:09:55 [Jirka]
Drafts are available at
14:10:13 [Jirka]
Jirka has joined #owpworkflow
14:13:23 [Jirka]
Question from Mohamed Zergaoui, Innovimax:
14:13:50 [Jirka]
... What's it supposed to be printer (PDF, HTML, ...)?
14:14:18 [liam]
liam has joined #owpworkflow
14:14:46 [Jirka]
Bill: Input is out of scope, PWD solves print production - like binding, duplex, ...
14:15:35 [Jirka]
Q from Daniel Glazman, Discuptive Innovation: CSS rules and overrides can always override print job ticket in a default ticket. So restrictions will not work.
14:16:19 [Jirka]
Bill: In many scenarios user's can't provide user stylesheet (e.g. in print kios).
14:16:28 [Jirka]
14:17:35 [Jirka]
Dave Cramer: We do single source HTML publishing to many output formats. For us it's natural to put such info into CSS.
14:18:06 [Jirka]
Adam Hyde: Is there plan to extend it for no-hard-copy formats?
14:19:18 [Jirka]
Todd Carpenter, NISO
14:20:11 [Jirka]
Members are publishers, SW industry and libraries
14:22:39 [Jirka]
A lot of "intelligence" is lost from XML when transformed to HTML
14:23:53 [Jirka]
Long term preservation of documents requires standards for long-term suitable formats
14:26:17 [Jirka]
There are many different organizations that overlaps but little bit different needs
14:28:18 [Jirka]
But W3C membership doesn't represent print publishing very well
14:31:17 [Jirka]
14:31:51 [Jirka]
People involved in standards should talk more each to other
14:32:28 [glazou]
+1 to what Ivan says
14:32:30 [Jirka]
Ivan: W3C doesn't want to develop any new standards in a publishing area
14:33:16 [Jirka]
But IDPF and others depend on W3C technologies and publishers are underrepresented in W3C
14:34:38 [Jirka]
W3C want to setup bridges, so requirements are reflected in Web standards
14:37:09 [Jirka]
Q from Daniel Glazman: 95% of EPUB are from W3C, rendering is done in browsers, publishers should join W3C, otherwise they will not have influence on technologies they depend on
14:39:37 [Jirka]
Markus Gylling, IDPF: IDPF hopes to use W3C power to overcome vendor lockin in the area of readers.
14:41:36 [Jirka]
Ted O'Connor: Longevity of web will be longer then of any other organization. So web formats are suitable for long-term archivation.
14:42:48 [Jirka]
Todd: There is much more structural intelligence in the special formats then in web based distribution formats
14:44:36 [Jirka]
Robin Berjon, W3C: I see two misconceptions. HTML is not only for rendering, it's also structured storage, which can be extended if there is something missing
14:45:55 [Jirka]
HTML will last long as it has many implementations.
14:47:12 [Jirka]
Mohamed: PDF formats for archiving are just 10 years old. Why HTML based ones should be develop faster? Archiving has many solutions but none is perfect. HTML can solve many of them.
14:48:27 [Jirka]
Ivan: Probably we should make similar event with archiving industry.
14:49:58 [Jirka]
Bill: Currently many users author in JATS, DocBook or TEI but in final HTML a lot of metadata is thrown away.
14:51:50 [Jirka]
Jirka has joined #owpworkflow
14:54:59 [Jirka]
???: We need markup for footnotes, would be nice to standardize how to markup them in HTML.
14:55:12 [fantasai_]
fantasai_ has joined #owpworkflow
14:55:28 [fantasai_]
It's also better for CSS, I think, if the footnote and context are marked up together!
14:55:38 [Karen]
14:55:40 [Jirka]
Christina: Many publishers are not experienced with digital workflow.
14:56:12 [fantasai_]
e.g. <p>some sentence <aside>Footnote content</aside></p> would be great
14:56:44 [Jirka]
<aside role="footnote">?
14:57:39 [fantasai_]
or <iaside>, maybe, for "inline-aside".
14:57:53 [fantasai_]
footnote vs. endnote vs. sidenote vs. popup is presentational
14:58:02 [fantasai_]
Japanese even has end-of-paragraph note :)
14:58:51 [Jirka]
bert_ you can present footnote as a pop-up as well
14:59:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
14:59:26 [Jirka]
Liam wraps-up
14:59:28 [fantasai_]
Bert, I don't think so! I think a footnote is an aside, a parenthetical of sorts. It is inline in the document
14:59:44 [fantasai_]
Bert, it's *presented* as if it were a link
15:00:03 [fantasai_]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:00:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fantasai_
15:00:04 [Jirka]
Tomorrow we will start at 9
15:00:31 [troere]
troere has left #owpworkflow
15:07:29 [Karen]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:07:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Karen
17:00:36 [ArtB]
ArtB has joined #owpworkflow
17:00:48 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, pointer?
17:00:48 [RRSAgent]
17:07:43 [ArtB]
ArtB has left #owpworkflow