06:42:45 RRSAgent has joined #owpworkflow 06:42:45 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-irc 06:43:13 meeting: "W3C Logo Publishing and the Open Web Platform" workshop day 1 06:43:15 chair: liam 06:43:24 agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/12/global-publisher/agenda.html 06:43:29 topic: introduction 06:44:40 liam: thank you every one for coming, Peter Lins and I will co-chair today 06:44:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 06:44:57 present: many, many, people 06:45:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 06:47:03 liam going through logistics 06:47:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 06:48:53 plinss_ has joined #owpworkflow 06:49:02 Eric has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 06:49:03 Luc has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 06:49:04 Fil has joined #owpworkflow 06:49:14 astearns has joined #owpworkflow 06:49:14 hi 06:49:20 Dave_Cramer has joined #owpworkflow 06:49:26 glazou has joined #owpworkflow 06:50:02 ScribeNick glazou 06:50:42 newt has joined #owpworkflow 06:50:45 Em has joined #owpworkflow 06:51:04 plinss has joined #owpworkflow 06:51:04 scribe: fsasaki 06:51:26 fsasaki: ok 06:51:28 liam: anybody who has not been to a w3c meeting before? 06:51:32 (many hands going up) 06:52:09 .. great. one aspect of w3c workshops: they are industry consultation events 06:52:23 pierre_thierry has joined #owpworkflow 06:52:29 .. we get together to hammer out a solution to a problem - we (W3C) are listening to you 06:52:43 ivan has joined #owpworkflow 06:52:51 .. we have arranged some speakers, but please: interrupt us. Our goal is to figure out the answer to a question: 06:53:08 .. what do you need to do commercial publishing using the open web platform? 06:53:24 .. the only way we can fix the web is if you tell us what's broken 06:54:03 .. would be a great outcome to hear "good what you can already do today" 06:54:15 pierre_thierry has left #owpworkflow 06:54:17 .. another great outcome would be: hear what should be done for the future 06:54:25 .. any questions so far? 06:54:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 06:56:26 rdeltour has joined #owpworkflow 06:56:40 ivan has joined #owpworkflow 06:57:42 hash tag is #owpworkflow 06:58:15 fjh has joined #owpworkflow 06:59:21 topic: the future of publishing (presentation from Liam Quin) 07:00:17 liam: citing "The printed word is not dead - it only looks that way because it doesn't move" (2001) 07:00:27 .. Frank Romano, at Seybold 2001 07:00:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 07:01:23 liam: the open web platform 07:02:09 .. see also http://www.webplatform.org/ site for more info. A collection of technologies and standards from W3C, IETF, ECMA; Unicode and others 07:02:25 bert_ has joined #owpworkflow 07:02:25 s/ECMA;/ECMA,/ 07:02:36 .. name is coming from Jeff Jaffe (W3C Ceo) 07:02:53 .. includes HTML, CSS, SVG, MathML, JavaScript, ... 07:02:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 07:04:07 Jirka has joined #owpworkflow 07:04:12 liam: computer software is moving to the Web 07:06:14 .. generic desktop computers are losing groupd. the owp can do graphics, types etc. 07:07:07 .. wordpress in the new pagemaker 07:07:42 philm has joined #owpworkflow 07:07:44 .. so what is publishing? has anyone not read a physical book in the last year? 07:07:48 (2 hands going up) 07:09:03 liam: by "publishing" at this workshop I mean professional publishing 07:09:33 .. including words that are digital or not 07:09:56 .. "self publishing" is not included in this - of course this is important too, but not in scope here 07:10:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 07:12:12 liam: one aspect for digital publishing is: how to convey that a document can be trusted? 07:12:33 .. major issue is the incompatibility of reader devices across platforms 07:12:49 (many hands go up showing that this is really a problem) 07:13:13 liam: use of draft or unstable features are another problem for implementations 07:13:20 .. same for formatting limitations 07:13:40 "CSS does not - eBook readers don't" - interesting comment from the audience 07:13:45 Some of the "new features" in CSS that don't work reliably across all ebook reading systems include margin-top :) 07:13:47 s/interesting// 07:14:23 liam listing gaps - in addition to the above metadata fragmentation, prepress and finishing not handled 07:14:58 yamamoto has joined #owpworkflow 07:15:23 liam showing a formatting example 07:16:26 liam: things hard to do today at the web: footnotes 07:17:00 .. hyphenation, multiple streams of footnotes, crop / bleed / spreads / binding / finishing 07:17:19 .. respond to needs of various distribution and marketing channels 07:17:36 .. topic of metadata 07:18:32 .. libraries are asked: what books do I have? 07:18:42 .. but now also: who wrote the webpage? 07:18:53 .. we don't have marc records on the web 07:19:08 .. we have @@@ metadata that publishers have to use 07:19:20 tkg has joined #owpworkflow 07:19:25 s/@@@/proprietary/ 07:19:35 .. but different book publishing channels use different metadata 07:19:38 kawabata_ has joined #owpworkflow 07:20:01 .. so metadata is an important topic, but we are likely to dive into that at a separate future workshop 07:20:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 07:20:38 liam: so how can we address these issues? 07:21:06 xyz: went to a conference for independent publishers 07:21:12 fsasaki: ask Liam?-) 07:21:25 .. publishers are worried about independent publishers 07:21:29 .. anybody can do it 07:21:35 emily form corvus? 07:21:40 indeed :) 07:22:27 liam: publishers are in the business of curation 07:22:38 rdeltour has joined #owpworkflow 07:22:40 just what I heard - probably slightly wrong on name and company 07:22:56 .. values that a publisher brings is: brand, ... 07:22:59 kathi-fletcher has joined #owpworkflow 07:22:59 'emily from corbas' 07:23:22 s/xyz/emily/ 07:24:52 liam: publishing is about curating, finding authors, quality, ... 07:25:17 adam: I see publishing as a business model 07:25:27 .. we are trying to work out how to produce knowledge and cultural items 07:25:44 .. even then we talk about authors this is very "loaded" 07:25:49 Even some NY Times Bestsellers come from publishers other than the big 5. 07:25:54 .. this is not the only way to produce quality 07:26:14 .. every time a word like publishing, author, book comes up there is a special auro about that 07:26:24 .. for me these are legacy terms we need to challenge a bit 07:26:57 liam: there is two conversations: what is publishing vs. what is a book 07:27:05 .. what is publishing will come up a lot 07:27:27 .. don't think it is productive for publishers to think that they are in the printing business 07:28:11 liam: now about w3c in general 07:28:24 .. a technical standards organization responsible for the world wide web 07:29:13 .. we are trying to fix problems in the web 07:29:45 .. we are a member funded consortium 07:31:00 .. companies pay to join and then can participate in working groups 07:31:24 .. w3c is about community and conversations 07:32:37 .. a group of related technical work items and interconnected working groups 07:32:43 Emma has joined #owpworkflow 07:32:54 .. like XML, TV on the Web, publishing, ... 07:33:20 .. some areas are cross area relevant, like internationalization or accessibility 07:33:49 .. example of internationalization needs to add markup to strings e.g. for ruby annotation 07:34:16 .. or accessibiltiy needs for people with various disabilities 07:34:28 .. publishing activity lead is Ivan Herman 07:35:00 .. we have liaisons with the IDPF, Markus Gylling 07:35:05 .. others are coming up 07:35:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 07:35:44 (a slide in small red type, about accessibility (just sayin')) 07:36:01 liam: membership includes publishers, tool vendords, users etc. 07:36:14 .. involvement of users for creating specs is important 07:36:30 .. we are doing a series of workshops on publishing 07:36:48 .. this one is focusing on workflow issues, from authors to producing physical or eBooks 07:37:14 .. the idea that you can use the same file to produce an eBook on the web or print 07:37:20 eva has joined #owpworkflow 07:38:17 .. we are to identify the needs and barriers for the workflow topic 07:38:24 newt has joined #owpworkflow 07:38:44 .. aim of the workshop is not to solve the issues. but rather to understand how to solve things and what are the right people to solve them 07:39:18 .. the w3c process says: a spec will not become a final standard ("Recommendation") unless all comments are addressed 07:39:38 .. our process ensures consensus and produces open standards 07:39:49 Em has joined #owpworkflow 07:39:52 .. = a royalty free platform 07:40:38 .. reaching also out to specific communities 07:41:15 liam: what you can do? join w3c, join the digital publishing interest group - if you don't join w3c then you can make comments from the outside 07:41:57 liam: some things that many things in publishing have in common 07:42:05 .. most of technical innovations in publishing come from a meeting: 07:42:20 .. between someone who has a need (a publisher) and a technologist 07:43:37 fantasai_ has joined #owpworkflow 07:44:22 Dave_Cramer has joined #owpworkflow 07:44:36 tkg_ has joined #owpworkflow 07:45:22 liam telling the story of gutenberg inventing book printing - showing the value of collaboration between publishing needs and technologists 07:45:51 liam: technologists have to listen to publishers - and publishers should say "it would be cool if ..." 07:46:04 .. domain experts need to communicate 07:46:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 07:46:47 speaker from univ. of redding 07:47:11 aaa: would be good to have concrete ideas about what is not written in standards, but what is best practices 07:47:22 .. people that have a position in publishing houses 07:47:51 .. there is a lot of work todo to translate things from print publishing world into other areas 07:47:56 speaker was Gerry Leonidas, University of Reading 07:48:20 liam: in w3c we have a document about japanese layout requirements 07:48:39 .. there are no requirements documents yet for other languages 07:49:11 [info about that: such documents are currently being created] 07:49:48 liam: an issue was that for some time that knowledge was not known 07:51:12 liam: workflow in publishing in an ideal world: there is one file, converted to PDF, sent to the printing company, and then to eBook people to make an eBook 07:51:24 speaker was Luc Audrain, Hachette Livre 07:51:36 .. you don't want editorial changes to happen in either of the publications 07:51:43 .. people are using XML to create eBooks 07:51:56 .. 40% of publishers are using XML in some point in their workflow 07:52:13 .. if you take your wordfile and convert it to XML 07:52:24 .. you have done proofreading etc. 07:52:36 .. that is one workflow 07:52:45 ... "XML late" means: you ahve done pagination etc. 07:52:59 .. and then convert to XML. That is not so good but it saves money in the short term 07:53:03 i/liam: worksflow/Audrain (Hachette Livre): 99% of content is made offline. 07:53:09 .. XML late people would like to do XML early 07:53:52 bill: about "unspoken rules" and cultural knowledge 07:54:07 .. when we look at chapter of a book, titles, different type sizes 07:54:25 .. we know by convention of typography what things are 07:54:34 .. behind these are markup 07:54:42 .. we think that the presentation is the structure, but it is not 07:54:53 .. there is nothing "given" in this 07:55:07 .. another example: in the mid 90s there was a workshop about web based publishing 07:55:12 .. the web was brand new 07:55:25 .. one student had a publication with certain elements in blue and underscored 07:55:44 .. the convention that these are links was not stable yet 07:56:02 .. so anybody that already had used the web were not used to that 07:56:25 .. now reading the new york times digital today: links are in grey, important terms are in blue (but without underlining) 07:56:39 .. these examples show that these conventions evolve other time 07:58:08 topic: presentation from Adam Witwer, O'Reilly Media 07:58:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 08:01:08 Dave_Cramer has joined #owpworkflow 08:01:35 i/liam: workflow/Audrain (Hachette Livre): 99% of content is made offline. 08:02:14 so why isn't O'Reilly a member of the CSS WG? 08:02:29 adam: my main area is tools and software dev side 08:03:20 .. a story in four chapters: 1 escape from framemaker 2 down the cascade 3 dawn of HTMLook 4 atlas never shrugs 08:03:33 adam: approach that I describe is just one 08:04:12 s/HTMLLook/HTMLBook/ 08:05:22 adam: framemaker is a tool for creating content like indesign 08:05:37 .. docbook xml is a standard for technical documentation 08:05:58 .. today it is version 5.1 - we are using 5.0 internally 08:06:13 .. this was in 2006, before anything on the digital book side was happening 08:06:34 .. in 2007 ePub became an IDPF standard - so above was a pre eBook standard 08:06:46 .. so why did we move from framemaker to docbook? 08:07:10 .. we had safari books online - 25% of our authors said I will write my book in docbook 08:07:38 .. so we took docbook into framemaker and tried to work with it - that was insane 08:07:57 ... also books needed heavy unicode support - framemaker at that time was not good at that, XML is 08:08:36 .. so our workflow then was DocBook XML > XLF-FO > PDF. The step fro XML to FO used XSLT 08:08:37 Eric has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 08:09:06 .. XSL-FO is like HTML and CSS put together. very difficult to read - more for machines to process 08:09:24 .. the step FO > PDF used antenna house (just one choice possible here) 08:09:36 .. what did we learn? First, book is not equal to PDF 08:09:49 .. PDF was just one representation of the XML 08:10:21 .. this lead to the single source publishing model: from one set of markup we produce many outputs. This was around 2007 08:10:36 .. from XML content to Safari books online, PDF, ePub, ... 08:10:55 .. single source publishing was very succcessful 08:11:01 .. cost saving was great 08:11:18 .. we were able to pull this off since we had a standard and technical authors already using that 08:11:24 .. so we had "XML early, XML first" 08:11:47 .. we had authors writing in wrod etc. - we converted that to XML docbook 08:12:17 .. now chapter 2 - a switch from XSL-FO to CSS for page layout 08:12:51 .. reason was various events: ePub 3 came up, O'Reilly loses lead XSL-FO developer. 08:13:10 .. docbook had xslt stylesheets to create ePub output 08:13:20 .. and antenna house 6 supported CSS 08:13:50 .. also, "by accident" we got HTML5 (as ePub3 format) 08:14:06 .. all above "events" happened in a few monhts 08:14:30 .. so we started doing workflows like: XML > XSLT > HTML5+CSS > PDF (via Antenna House) 08:14:41 .. this was hugely successful in the production group 08:15:01 .. it lifted the bail for many people to understand the production process 08:15:20 .. our first XSL-FO workflow as about "doing things as good as it gets" 08:15:40 .. I did not like the idea that PDF is not important and will go away 08:15:47 .. we rather took that moment to make things better 08:16:09 Emma has joined #owpworkflow 08:16:15 .. if you compare our PDF produced today to 3 years ago, the difference is amazing, e.g. looking at font usage etc. 08:16:52 .. we use CSS modules like paged media, generated content, text, fonts 08:17:02 .. paged media is relying no the box model 08:17:14 .. there is the content and in the edge other regions 08:17:16 kawabata has joined #owpworkflow 08:17:58 .. you can select a right page, bottom right (which is nested), then a generated content 08:18:23 s/content/piece of content/ 08:18:35 .. including page number, font settings etc. 08:18:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 08:19:47 glazou: a problem with this presentaiton and the modules you are mentioning 08:19:56 .. the modules are not even stable working drafts 08:20:19 .. o'reilly is not member of the CSS working group and you are the heaviest user of the modules 08:20:32 .. without your input & help, we will not make it 08:20:39 .. these things are used all other the place 08:21:08 .. the things are not "ready to use". There are many problems about the features that you described 08:21:21 .. we all know these things exist - but please know that they are unstable 08:21:33 .. they are implemented by some vendors - antenna house and prince 08:21:41 .. but from a CSS perspective they don't exist 08:22:19 ivan: saying the same in a more positive manner: please come to the WG to do the work! 08:22:47 adam: I searched for vendor extensions and there are not many in our style sheets 08:23:07 adam showing examples from typography and images 08:24:11 s/examples/examples of vendor extensions with -ah prefix/ 08:24:52 adam: image placement is a mess in CSS spec but also in the tool(s) - something which we struggle with 08:25:25 .. pages are reflowable - on the web the approach is different than in traditional publishing 08:26:07 [Liam's presentation, for the record, http://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/09-quin-publishing-workshop/ ] 08:26:24 adam: bnefits of CSS over xsl-fo: 08:26:33 .. "democratization" of style sheet dev 08:26:46 .. removes "programmer" from between designer and page 08:26:54 .. development was faster for CSS 08:27:17 .. benefits of CSS over traditional page layout: 08:27:55 .. same content easily can be presented in different ways - like you see it all the time on the web 08:28:13 .. o'reilly "animal" book template: 3251 lines of CSS 08:28:19 .. for tables, fitures, sidebars, ... 08:28:29 .. really complex content that we lay out with CSS 08:28:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 08:29:13 .. in general we do a template based approach 08:30:06 phil: we are a general publisher 08:30:16 .. we have very different business models in publishing 08:30:19 Emma has joined #owpworkflow 08:30:25 .. our authors, editors, ... are very creative 08:30:47 .. they don't want to have standards - e.g. what you just showed (the template) is not something that they want to use 08:31:04 adam: absolutely - our approach is only one approach 08:31:22 .. you have to consider what the best tool is for your business / authors etc. 08:31:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 08:32:36 adam: limitations of the CSS workflow: 08:32:54 .. there is a depdendency on commercial PDF processors for professional quality books 08:33:08 .. complex layouts and two-page spreads can be difficult 08:33:27 .. we did not design our own enginge because it is some very serious engineering 08:33:59 .. example of what is currently discussed in w3c 08:34:23 .. you want to say: I have a note on the left page like ... , and on the right page like ... 08:34:27 .. you cannot do this today 08:34:49 .. moving ahead: publishers need to use CSS and provide feedback 08:35:06 .. there needs to be support for newer modules: exclusion, regions, grid layout 08:35:23 .. template approach is great, but we need to move on and push things to the limits 08:36:20 ivan: in the workflow that you had before - how do you handle aspects like review 08:36:41 .. many publishers still use word since this gives them that reviewing functionality 08:36:54 adam: some use word, some use other options I don't have control of 08:37:09 .. some use PDF annotations, or versioning control via git 08:37:52 adam: showing again the docbook based model with various output 08:38:35 .. we realized that we were producing 4 different versions of HTML - we did not plan that, it happened organically 08:39:26 .. the question came up: why do we need docbook? 08:39:42 .. we started thinking about using HTML natively 08:40:01 .. big benefits: simplifies the document transformation layer 08:40:15 .. aligns our toolset with other things on the web 08:40:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 08:41:18 adam: lessons learned of docbook: 08:41:29 .. most authors don't want to work with XML 08:41:38 .. docbook had a valuable community 08:42:07 .. a single source content model is valuable for regenrating digital books & easy to adapt to new digital book formats 08:42:28 .. so single source publishing model is very important - and we came up with HTMLBook 08:42:51 adam reading from readme at https://github.com/oreillymedia/HTMLBook 08:43:35 adam: it is not a standard. It has an XML Schema with it. It is a way of semantically describing publishing in HTML 08:43:48 .. do publishers need a schema? 08:44:16 .. you may want to write a specific HTML model and handle HTML & CSS for every book 08:44:30 .. we don't do that and work with just one model & schema 08:44:55 ... docbook is giving us a rich way to describe everything, from foot notes to UI items 08:45:16 .. we needed a way to do it: should we just use class or data-* attributes? 08:45:40 .. data-* is a wildcard - you can do what you want with them 08:47:46 adam: problem with class is that authors may want to use it for their own purposes 08:48:07 adam: some ongoing work - wish people would use it and give us feedback 08:48:22 Emma has joined #owpworkflow 08:48:28 jirka: in HTMLBook are you using this directly for ePub? 08:48:40 .. or are you modifying markup? 08:48:58 adam: we use HTML directly. When we create ePub we add some metadata, that is it 08:49:40 markus: scripting transformation - how will that be set up? 08:49:48 adam: some XSLT, ruby, python ... 08:50:13 markus: there are many different flavours that many groups are doing now 08:50:43 .. e.g. ePub 3.1 we discussed that too - the HTML WG said that data-* is not for cross platform stuff 08:53:44 adam: now on "Atlas" platform 08:54:02 .. for authoring on top of HTML that I have described 08:54:10 adam showing authoring interface 08:54:25 adam: there are many HTML editors out now 08:54:30 .. they are updating really good 08:54:39 Atlas currently only available in private beta? 08:54:44 .. we modified an editor to use our schema 08:55:04 .. an author would never see the schema stuff unless she wants to 08:55:14 .. about using git with atlas: 08:55:34 .. author clones down book project to local writing environment 08:55:51 .. author writes in HTML, markdown, or AsciiDoc and pushes files back to Atlas 08:56:11 .. Atlas transforms files to HTMLBook and builds book formats 08:56:47 atlas http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/1230000000065 08:56:48 Adam showing a visualization 08:57:07 HTLMBook spec https://github.com/oreillymedia/HTMLBook/ 08:57:45 adam: github also helps with change handling 08:58:11 .. but this depends also on the authors themselves, i.e. whether they use it or not 08:58:23 .. one author wrote some javascript and css and interactive widgit 08:58:54 .. we let the author embbeed that in an iFrame and that appears in an online version 08:59:02 .. but it does not appear in the print version 08:59:08 atlas (better url given by @figoblog) http://atlas.labs.oreilly.com/ 08:59:20 .. once you are writing in HTML you are opening up other opportunities 08:59:43 bill: concept of authors writing in HTML 08:59:49 .. millions do because they blog 09:00:07 .. I am less interested in the concept of wordpress as pagemaker, than wordpress as word 09:00:13 adam: I don't see a problem, that is fine 09:01:38 bbb: as a community we failed by not spreading version control more for people 09:01:49 .. outside software developers only the wiki community is doing version control 09:01:54 .. and in a limited way 09:02:06 .. we should produce people frindly diffs and images 09:02:20 .. the movement e.g. of images and review of changes is usually a nightmare 09:02:36 .. if we would train people with version control it would be a nightmare 09:03:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 09:03:21 liam: there is a change tracking markup community group at w3c 09:03:41 http://www.w3.org/community/change/ 09:03:48 liam: dealing with such topics 09:04:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 09:34:22 Jirka has joined #owpworkflow 09:34:25 newt has joined #owpworkflow 09:34:48 bert_ has joined #owpworkflow 09:37:22 plinss_ has joined #owpworkflow 09:40:09 Dave_Cramer has joined #owpworkflow 09:41:20 Topic: Panel: Using the Web as it Stands 09:41:36 mgylling has joined #owpworkflow 09:41:47 rdeltour has joined #owpworkflow 09:42:09 Topic: Using HTML 5 as it Stands 09:42:13 fsasaki has joined #owpworkflow 09:42:20 Scribe: Bert 09:42:33 [penellists introduce themselves] 09:42:49 s/penellists/panelists/ 09:44:14 glazou has joined #owpworkflow 09:44:14 yamamoto has joined #owpworkflow 09:46:09 Robin: HTML in books not a good idea. 09:46:43 ... Leads to debugging, problems, brittle. HTML DOM and XML DOM differences. 09:46:48 kawabata has joined #owpworkflow 09:47:41 karen has joined #owpworkflow 09:48:13 Scribe: Karen 09:48:18 Robin: We can actually use both together 09:48:29 ...Idea is to agree as community to use HTML in published, final formats 09:48:39 ...and integrate fully into Web 09:48:52 ...Move on to next presenters unless there are questions 09:48:58 Next Speaker: Adam Hyde 09:49:22 Adam: I'm Adam Hyde, you can find me at adamhyde.net 09:49:28 ...I have been involved in book publishing 09:49:38 ...using community book publishing 09:49:56 ...Book Sprint methodology to print books in 3-5 days 09:50:04 [for FLOSS, free/libre/open source software documentation] 09:50:04 ...in ePub, Mobi... 09:50:09 ...rely on fast technologies 09:50:14 ...the browser is solution 09:50:21 ...should be the production and design environment 09:50:32 ...and also the renderer to create PDF using HTML 09:50:50 ...The books for methodology will be online shortly 09:51:09 ...Books for methodology relies on output quickly for use 09:51:19 ...have been using open source technologies for the rendering 09:51:24 ...rely on open source 09:51:36 ...looked at @ and pisa (sp?) 09:51:42 ...used PDf for a while 09:51:45 ...then used CSS 09:51:55 ...render PDF to render content in the browser 09:51:59 ...with tables of contents 09:52:07 ...relied on page generated content model 09:52:12 ...relied on JS, found @ 09:52:17 ...create content in HTML 09:52:23 ..push button and get content formatted 09:52:30 ...right click PDF and get 1:1 09:52:42 ...printing press in terms of creating print is click JS 09:52:44 ...open source 09:52:49 ...have a lot of advantes 09:52:57 ...get ePub as a gif 09:53:07 ...anything you can see in browser you can see in PDF 09:53:11 ...can make interactive presentations 09:53:20 ...and correlate to online 09:53:24 ...using browser itself 09:53:36 ...use to solve book problems 09:53:46 [slide with list] 09:54:06 ...Even JS takes algorithms 09:54:11 ...it's all available right now with JS 09:54:19 ...have been doing a year 09:54:29 ...Last point is I don't know where publishers are right now 09:54:36 ...If Gutenberg had put everything online 09:54:47 ...eventually publishers would invest in this 09:55:01 ...publishers should be contributing to browser development and contributing 09:55:03 ...a little about me 09:55:08 ...thank you 09:55:41 Next Speaker: Tony Graham, Mentea 09:56:19 Tony: Liam said the title of this panel is deliberately open-ended 09:56:43 ...I put as a target format 09:57:00 ...a couple days ago Wikipedia had banner about fifth most popular site 09:57:11 ...ASCII doc with markdown, etc. 09:57:20 ...part of this is HTML5 converted to HTML5 09:57:25 ...I was at Balisage presentation 09:57:39 ...where Sanders @ talked about HTMLBook from O'Reilly 09:57:53 ....he stressed the XSLT side, not the Ruby side of it 09:58:09 sgalineau has joined #owpworkflow 09:58:22 ...What I tend to see.. 09:58:30 ...archive format... 09:58:44 ...XSLT could be used to produce static HTML5 pages 09:58:54 ...there is also option to do XSLT2.0 in the browser 09:58:58 ....just loads 09:59:05 ...and do thinkgs on the web page 09:59:19 ...@ has a demo showing how to play chess 09:59:30 ....Example showing what it can do entirely in XSLT 09:59:38 ...respond to user events 09:59:48 ...Other things I see things for HTML5 is validator 09:59:52 ...things to do with actually data 10:00:18 ...perhaps O'Reilly is not doing journals, but can validate parts of the content; and ISO standards for scientific journal 10:00:25 Eric has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 10:00:29 ...journal publishers are worried about such things 10:00:34 ...Of course it can be styled 10:00:44 ...I transformed it 10:00:52 ...Elizabethan Ruby 10:01:03 ...it illustrates part of problem we have with HTML 10:01:11 ...it lost some of it; had to modify the transform 10:01:21 ...modify the structure 10:01:36 ...to do more with what I needed: HTML5 was not enough to do the styling 10:02:13 Next Speaker: Gerry Leonidas 10:02:31 Gerry: I come from a university with a long tradition in typography 10:02:43 ....most of technologists and people from publishing organizations 10:02:49 ...have nothing to do with Gutenberg 10:02:58 ...typography is mostly 19th century 10:03:04 ...and extends into 20th 10:03:14 ...book and journal typograpy has not changed that much 10:03:17 stearns_ has joined #owpworkflow 10:03:19 ...have to look to graphic design 10:03:43 ...I don't see many people here whose job it is to translate this into language that technologists and publishers understand 10:03:50 ...a problem as you open up @ 10:03:55 @/tools 10:04:03 ...don't ask people what they want idea 10:04:08 ...luxury of working at university 10:04:16 ...we said let's not do what O'Reilly does 10:04:29 ...let's find the most difficult problems to fix 10:04:38 ...Left is classical Greek lexicon 10:04:55 ....written in XML and we styled output for precise typography 10:04:58 ...has loaded meanings 10:05:15 ...On the other hand, we have a HenryV edition of Shakespear 10:05:21 ...different levels of annotation and mark-u[p 10:05:27 ...you can rely on audience to parse this 10:05:36 ...and understand which is text and which is annotation 10:05:42 ...what is missing is the model for typesetting 10:05:47 ...we have tried to do this online 10:05:57 ...with Typecast, a Monotype company now 10:05:59 ...You can do it 10:06:09 ...problem is that this is not responsive 10:06:16 ...difficult for text books 10:06:25 ...we tried to figure out these types of problems 10:06:32 ...sequencing and @...hierarchies 10:06:42 ...break it out to these things and a number of levels 10:06:49 ...the sticking point 10:07:07 ...we can develop a model that both can understand is the authoring environment 10:07:15 ....Word was not invented to produce complex documents 10:07:19 ...and yet it was produced 10:07:24 ...equivalent is WordPress 10:07:35 ...linear structure; not good to do HenryV 10:07:43 ...Markdown...good for simple hierarchies 10:08:03 ....simple tools 10:08:45 ...We have done a generalized model 10:08:58 ...that gives one of nine levels of priority in each element and a sequence in a chain 10:09:05 ...focusing on a paragraph; in P level 10:09:11 ...working with Typecast 10:09:25 ...as simple proofing environment; looks extremely simple 10:09:31 ...I'll stop there 10:10:02 Next Speaker: Philippe Riviere 10:10:14 Philippe: I am a journalist and a technologist 10:10:20 ...I was doing web site and journalism 10:10:29 ...I don't like to call it a content management system 10:10:40 ...but I wrote this with friends and we use it internally 10:10:49 ...we take exports from Quark 10:11:00 ...and port them into SQ data base to create scripts 10:11:05 ...from this to publish ebooks 10:11:15 ...take the HTML pages and prepare a book with them 10:11:20 ...First we tried to make a mobile app 10:11:28 ...then we realized that our work was not advancing software 10:11:34 ...had bugs on every platform 10:11:38 ...more about content 10:11:42 ...so we went to ebooks 10:11:51 ...the challenges was to respect the news hierarchy 10:12:02 ...journal is not just a collection of articles 10:12:08 ...there is an information hierarchy 10:12:13 ...front news, news sections 10:12:20 ...all of this is disappearing on web site 10:12:30 ...I wanted to record the structure in a mobile app and ebooks 10:12:41 ...and still go with HTML, CSS 10:12:48 ...one page is table of contents; series of links 10:12:50 ...two chapers 10:13:03 ....chapter can be an article or a service page 10:13:14 ...We list the chapters and a script goes to fetch each chapter 10:13:21 ...Inside each chapter is CMS 10:13:27 ...just knows the author of the pages 10:13:45 ...@ was poorly documented 10:13:56 ...we lost a lot of time figuring out these things; special files 10:14:05 ...This is our result 10:14:11 ...system on iPad 10:14:24 ...we have nice typography which is the biggest challenge with ebooks 10:14:30 ....we tried to do our best here 10:14:36 ...We just recently produced an ebook 10:14:41 ...in our archives 10:14:47 ...go from May 1954 10:14:54 ...we can now publish ebooks 10:14:57 ...very simple thing 10:14:59 ...thank you 10:15:08 Robin: Thank you for all those presentations 10:15:13 ...are there any questions in the room? 10:15:46 Emile: Do publishers know how and what technologies 10:15:54 ...I teach a strategic course in London 10:16:13 ...web technologies are basis for book publishing technologies 10:16:23 ...they don't know what HTML is, what a mark-up language is 10:16:31 ...these are people involved in strategy at publishing houses 10:16:41 Nic: that is what I have found 10:16:44 ...same situation 10:16:57 ...what I find frustrating is that you see expensive work-arounds in tool sets 10:17:04 ...if they would put a toe in, would be great 10:17:07 ...it's not so tricky 10:17:11 s/Emile/Emily Gibson/ 10:17:15 ...I am hoping we can convince some publishers 10:17:34 Emily: have to start from first principles every time; has been ten years 10:17:42 Robin: a decade not so much in technology 10:17:53 @: Practical thing 10:18:02 .?? 10:18:23 Bill Kasdorf, Apex: I am sensitive to everyone in organization to 'get this' 10:18:28 ...start talking first about vocabulary 10:18:34 ...what do you call them, what are the pieces 10:18:40 Emma has joined #owpworkflow 10:18:42 ...then people who know mark-up can translate it 10:18:53 ...but if you start with mark-up you get deer in headlights reaction 10:19:02 ...I worked with a large client with diverse publications 10:19:09 ...first reaction was there is no way we can get SML 10:19:11 s/XML 10:19:17 ...we have these and these and other things 10:19:19 ...Tell me the parts 10:19:27 s/SML/XML/ 10:19:31 ...we took A, then took B, then C, completely different 10:19:36 ...semantically they are the same things 10:19:46 ...they cannot see that semantically these are the same 10:19:59 ...then they understand separation of presentation and content 10:20:05 Daniel: problems of HTML based tool chain 10:20:21 ...is there is no WYSIWYG for the masses 10:20:31 ....write docs, submit to publishers 10:20:40 ....format data as if like Word 10:20:46 ...but not care about the technologies inside 10:20:59 ...someone writer should not have to care about HTML, epub 10:21:07 ...we don't have a tool yet for the masses 10:21:12 Nic: I would disagree with that 10:21:19 ...If you look at GoogleDocs 10:21:21 ...example of that 10:21:26 ...I am not advocating that 10:21:35 ...GoogleDocs is a solution within W3C 10:21:42 s/Nic/Adam Hyde 10:21:52 Adam: look at demos, they are amazing 10:21:57 ...one of things liberating it 10:22:04 ...has opened up opportunities 10:22:16 Daniel: Maybe we are living in too geeky an environment 10:22:21 ...ask them about GoogleDocs 10:22:35 Leonard: I think there are tools 10:22:37 ...I showed one 10:22:44 ...people are thinking about things 10:22:48 ...take a step back 10:22:58 ...content production used to be a specialist 10:22:59 s/Leonard/Leonidas/ 10:23:06 ..and no relation for how things exists 10:23:10 ...very short period 10:23:12 Em has joined #owpworkflow 10:23:21 ....to produce content at proofing stage to mimic how things look 10:23:32 ...we have not decided minimum level of what people need to know 10:23:42 ...like what is bare minimum of what people need to know to drive a car 10:23:51 ...A lot of people doing this are more my age 10:24:01 ...with other references 10:24:14 ...new generation need to train to think about what needs to be visible 10:24:35 ...I think there is a big problem with GoogleDocs because it answers the problem of the previous technology 10:24:44 ...why would GoogleDocs have a page break? 10:24:50 ...why should it print? 10:25:08 @: Two comments; translating structures into things that mean something is important 10:25:11 who's speaking ? 10:25:13 ...have to get back to their vocabulary 10:25:22 ...we worked with K12 teachers in South Africa 10:25:32 ...used an editor that was close to wzywig 10:25:41 ...they could cut and paste the note, a whole exercise 10:25:53 ...translation from Word or @ was affordable 10:26:01 @/Kathy Fletcher 10:26:13 @: Concept of wzywig 10:26:30 ...they see something that looks like what they want at the end; but it masks the semantics 10:26:39 ....should have 'what you see is what you mean' 10:26:45 ...need something that shows the semantics 10:26:54 ...may look bad but is easy to use and understand 10:26:55 s/@/Pierre Thierry/ 10:27:07 Bill: one addition 10:27:11 ...in production workflows 10:27:16 ...people do have that semantic rendering 10:27:29 ....use false colored rendering to see what is not in print; need to move that upstream 10:27:38 Alan Stearns, Adobe: I edit the @ 10:27:46 ...glad to hear bookJS has worked for you 10:27:54 s/@/CSS Regions spec/ 10:27:59 ...have to go through JS library defvelopment is annoying 10:28:12 ...as you use library you will find out what you will need...from the technologies in the browser 10:28:18 Adam: I would like to respond 10:28:32 ....CSS regents was amazing presentation 10:28:40 ....change on fly 10:28:50 ...it's an awesome implementation 10:28:59 s/regents/regions/ 10:29:03 ...and we have learned a lot about book production by going down dead ends 10:29:10 ...talk to people about the possibilities 10:29:16 ...people outside publishing are gaining 10:29:24 ...thanks for CSS Regions 10:29:38 @: I confirm that our authors know 10:29:42 what does gcpm stand for? 10:29:47 ...tools do not transcript the structure 10:29:58 Generated Content for Paged Media 10:30:03 ...H1, end of the paragraph itself 10:30:09 ...but introduce a high level hierarchy 10:30:16 ...and have it at beginning of the next H1 10:30:27 ...if we had a tool to capture this structure would be useful 10:30:35 Robin: content and the structure 10:30:51 Dave Cramer: I don't think we have a well established vocabulary for these elements 10:30:52 [wanting something like content-editable but for structure as well as for content] 10:30:58 ...in a novel there may be a blank line 10:31:00 ...a few firms 10:31:08 ...use differently across boundaries and publishing houses 10:31:10 s/content and the structure/sort of contentEditable but for structure, not mark-up/ 10:31:15 ...have not been made universal enough 10:31:28 Todd: Bill, a question for you 10:31:37 ...How many times have we tried to develop that semantic language 10:31:42 Bill: 3752 10:31:48 ...that does not mean it's futile 10:31:56 ...different interest groups have more in common 10:32:01 ...you kind of need to start there 10:32:11 ...I work mostly with book and journal people 10:32:18 ...anyone in magazine world know what a deck is 10:32:23 ...is also useful for books 10:32:30 s/Todd/Todd Carpenter, NISO 10:32:36 Robin: information about lunch? 10:32:46 Liam: Lunch is "thataway" 10:33:00 rrsagent, make minutes 10:33:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html karen 10:33:10 ...Come back in one hour and 23 minutes or sooner 10:33:20 ...Take your laptops, mobile phones 10:33:28 ...there is a sign up sheet for dinner venues 10:33:36 Robin: thanks to the panelists 10:33:43 rrsagent, make minutes 10:33:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html karen 11:55:46 plinss_ has joined #owpworkflow 12:00:04 rdeltour has joined #owpworkflow 12:09:40 bert_ has joined #owpworkflow 12:10:07 Emma has joined #owpworkflow 12:10:16 glazou has joined #owpworkflow 12:10:25 Dave_Cramer has joined #owpworkflow 12:10:48 fsasaki has joined #owpworkflow 12:11:44 mgylling has joined #owpworkflow 12:12:01 Em has joined #owpworkflow 12:12:27 topic: Panel: Web technologies, authoring and Workflow 12:12:30 Scribing on iPad 12:12:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fsasaki 12:12:48 Yes 12:12:54 scribe: Em 12:13:42 Afternoon session first up is ... 12:14:23 yamamoto has joined #owpworkflow 12:14:43 Jirka kosek speaking about IT'S 12:15:26 ITS 2.0 - metadata annotations 12:15:28 s/IT'S/ITS 2.0/ 12:15:34 Fil has joined #owpworkflow 12:15:37 MoZ has joined #owpworkflow 12:15:54 30-40-50 languages automated metadata language translation 12:16:06 kawabata has joined #owpworkflow 12:16:12 s/30-40-50/Jirka: 30-40-50/ 12:16:15 ITS2.0 makes translation task easier and more effective 12:16:32 Karen has joined #owpworkflow 12:16:59 Originally developed for XML but 2.0 specification can also be used for html5 12:18:18 s/2.0/ITS 2.0/ 12:18:20 ITS namespace attributes eg foie gras in the middle of English text that should not be translated 12:18:42 As html5 does not have support for namespaces a different approach needs to be taken 12:18:59 Problems to be addressed 12:19:37 liam has joined #owpworkflow 12:19:59 1) ITS not just inline markup but css selectors cannot replace xpath 12:21:21 s/xpath/xpath e.g. because only with xpath you can address attributes/ 12:21:27 [ FYI, the w3c validator has been updated to allow its-* validation, see an validation example here http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/examples/html5/EX-term-html5-local-1.html ] 12:21:40 2) html5 extensibility for additional metadata 12:22:10 3) html5 cannot embed XML as additional metadata 12:22:23 One proposed solution is to use json 12:22:30 [see a "data island" example here http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#EX-locQualityIssue-html5-local-2 ] 12:22:39 Workflow problems: 12:23:21 1) export/import to cms - no existing standards 12:24:07 s/standards/standards to describe a complex export/import scenario including translation workflow/ 12:24:23 question: do not understand point 1 A: css selectors cannot address attributes only elements 12:24:53 You can select elements with some attributes attach to them but you cannot select attributes themselves 12:25:18 [ you can select an element having a title attribute, but you can only select elements in CSS, not attributes ] 12:25:36 You cannot select the node attribute, you can only select the elements or parts of the elements 12:25:42 [xpath example assuming html default namespace: //img/@alt . Attach information e.g. that "alt" needs some special handling during translation] 12:26:39 s/Attach/Scenario is to attach/ 12:27:03 sgalineau has joined #owpworkflow 12:27:09 fjh has joined #owpworkflow 12:27:21 q: what is the problem with using xpath and CSS... 12:27:39 rrsagent, generate minutes 12:27:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html fjh 12:28:27 Next presentation Tomas 4d concept 12:28:41 Jirka has joined #owpworkflow 12:29:03 Experts in documentation and engineering towards ideal online XML editor for print, digital and other streams 12:29:55 Newspapers, magazines, all kinds of publications 12:30:12 Industry as well as publishing 12:30:55 Different kinds of XML inputs are used including open office, word, HTML, etc 12:31:24 It wasn't as comfortable as we had imagined so we created our own authoring tool of 12:31:29 For XML 12:31:47 Using xslt for all kinds of output 12:32:34 First we tried xmax - very efficient, but compatibility issues with Internet explorer and other tools 12:32:35 darobin has joined #owpworkflow 12:33:24 Then we tried CK but we had to rebuild the tool for every DTD every customer provided us 12:34:00 So we built a tool that is very good for simple content, XMS author 12:34:29 It is XML with pretty CSS on it so that authors with no interest in XML can use it 12:34:50 It is connected to a database where authors can pick up images or other bits of text 12:35:24 It is developed around oXygen with some widgets to align with oxygen components and word style toolbar 12:35:24 stearns_ has joined #owpworkflow 12:35:42 *word like toolbar 12:36:29 XSLT, CSS2+, MathML, web services like svg etc 12:36:36 Emma has joined #owpworkflow 12:37:14 [example of output printed file - a colour page with image and recipe] 12:38:09 Close - description of codex reader (epub3 reader for ios and android platforms, with fixed layout or reflow able layout) 12:38:57 Next - Nic Gibson who has written some HTML that is not portable so has to display from own laptop 12:39:26 Corbas works for publishers workflow plus XML hackery 12:40:01 One of the things we can say is that simple text is pretty much a solved problem 12:40:23 But there is some really big problems with complex text, eg legal, educational 12:40:41 There are no simple texts ;) 12:41:02 Too difficult for HTML markup but XML is required for certain more difficult texts 12:41:30 The difference is that XML is required for structured content with specialised tools 12:41:34 Unfortunately this 12:41:45 Is not used by authors 12:42:14 Authors write totally linear which makes XML authoring fail in almost every general case 12:42:42 We are requiring that authors use XML because we can process if 12:42:48 *it 12:43:23 Luc has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 12:43:42 MS Word is a truly awful product but authors like it for the very reasons that we dislike it - they can simply make sthg bold 12:44:06 We are talking about a very small subset here but one that will grow - currently on ly pop 12:44:13 *only 12:44:30 35% of students read digitally 12:44:52 The challenge is complex text 12:45:09 We need to make CSS work for these challenging texts 12:46:00 We need to allow authors to write linearly and then get the structure right (footnotes, sidebars, etc) 12:46:48 We need to think about the things that authors need - we need to let them use just enough structure when writing and not disrupt the flow 12:47:13 Make authors comfortable while writing 12:48:00 The next challenge is editing, where the concept of final proofs is very late in the process 12:48:25 As soon as the layout needs to be done by hand the XML system breaks 12:48:45 sgalineau has joined #owpworkflow 12:50:09 Jirka has joined #owpworkflow 12:50:17 Comment: from publishers association, is this about print or digital layout too? 12:50:46 Answer: this is about both or it won't be cost effective for publishers 12:51:11 Right now converting to digital post print version isn't working very well 12:51:56 Problem: publishers are not involved, there are only two publishers involved right now 12:52:24 Problem: there is only a small subset of people interested in this and they will not join the w3c 12:52:32 Jirka_ has joined #owpworkflow 12:52:44 Publishers are outsourcing often to people who are in this room 12:53:02 Troere has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 12:53:06 q: what is your strategy for making pubs 12:53:11 Understand? 12:53:42 A: we point out the risks of not understanding eg your books being taken down from amazon 12:54:12 Also that you can create this yourself and save money if you start in the right place 12:55:01 Q: in w3c the point is that up until a couple of months ago this was an internal w3c discussion 12:55:21 The publishers have joined recently and there are more coming on board 12:56:06 Comment: hachette problem is training, education, etc and that is a process, there is a cost attached and it is a slow evolution 12:56:53 Karen Meyers w3c role is to do outreach - tv and media were at this point three years ago 12:57:35 They are looking for training programmes for publishing communities 12:58:44 Q is there a shift to have authors do more where publishers used to do layout etc 12:59:15 A publishers used to outsource things they understood now they outsource things because they do not understand 12:59:36 Not necessary towards authors but away from publishers 12:59:37 ivan has joined #owpworkflow 13:00:30 Comment about what authors are exited about eg drag and drop bibliographies 13:00:45 Comment about usability andaccess 13:00:46 P 13:00:59 *accessibility - needing to get it right 13:01:37 Comment Accessibility benefits everyone eg separating content and structure helps the author understand the structure better too 13:01:38 s/Q is there a shift/fjh: Q is there a shift/ 13:03:07 Comment there are no outsourced companies suggesting HTML composition to our publishing group because the quality is not good enough and we have that in print 13:03:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:03:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/16-owpworkflow-minutes.html ivan 13:04:43 Comment that we have a lot of problems with semantic understanding and integration of rdf and owl different content on different platforms 13:04:49 A 13:04:52 A 13:05:26 Publishers struggle with XML they will not have any knowledge of rdf and owl 13:05:55 Q if word is such a low bar why are we trying to try 13:06:21 Create new skins for Word 13:07:28 Word is not very extensible but authors still have word at their disposal so we are dependent on word as the original content editor 13:07:31 s/ fjh emacs is extensible// 13:08:36 Word can be extended as an editing environment by exporting 13:09:12 Approach of "carrots not sticks" from authors all the way through to production staff at oreilly 13:09:58 Troere has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 13:10:12 Eg authors can publish instantly including errata or can collaborate in real time with your co authors sorry for losing your word but you do get these other things instead 13:11:17 Build a platform that will give authors a one to one representation of what they write to what they are selling 13:11:35 Authors become self correcting 13:12:14 Final point - we need to extend CSS for composition 13:12:54 We should be able to do the composition with declarative controls 13:13:23 We would like use cases and feedback to the steering group 13:13:35 13:14:19 (Aside: I would not recommend scribing on an iPad - autocorrect is a nightmare!) 13:31:21 troere has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 13:35:43 Jirka has joined #owpworkflow 13:35:47 scribe: Jirka 13:35:58 topic: Panel: Standards Bodies: Who does what? (moderator: Ivan Herman, W3C) 13:36:13 Ivan Herman: introduces panel 13:36:32 glazou has joined #owpworkflow 13:36:51 Christina Mussinelli: 13:36:58 newt has joined #owpworkflow 13:37:16 standards are important also for book distribution 13:37:20 Fil_ has joined #owpworkflow 13:37:46 information and product flows 13:38:12 Standards in publishing all listed 13:38:19 s/all/are/ 13:39:09 stearns_ has joined #owpworkflow 13:39:28 Luc has joined #OWPWORKFLOW 13:39:46 Christine explains ISBN 13:40:13 Actionable ISBN 13:41:59 Bill Kasdorf from Apex 13:42:25 Bill speaks about aligning standards 13:43:41 EPUB3 is based on HTML5 13:44:11 But HTML5 is not final standard yet, but EPUB3 needs to b 13:45:19 rdeltour has joined #owpworkflow 13:46:13 EPUB3 uses approach where open things are left to HTML5 13:49:19 Jirka has joined #owpworkflow 13:49:47 mgylling has joined #owpworkflow 13:50:00 Aligning magazines with EPUB3 13:51:20 Mentions nextPub, PSV (PRISM Source Vocabulary) and OpenEFT (Enhanced for Tablet) 13:53:04 Overlapping Organizations 13:54:17 There are several different organizations working on issue related to EPUB, metadata, accessibility 13:57:45 A lot of metadata is defined in schema.org vocabularies 13:58:48 In future Pearson will use semantic HTML5 from authoring to production 13:59:05 Presentation is handled by XSLT + CSS 14:00:47 Output will be EPUB3 14:01:16 Bill Wagner, Printer Working Group: Introduced PWG 14:02:17 PWG makes standards in printer area: eg. IEEE 1284, IPP, XHTML/CSS-Print, ... 14:04:11 Areas that needs improvement: page rendering and job ticketing 14:06:43 Proposal for job tickets in CSS and XSL-FO 14:08:34 it's all about printing 14:09:12 plinss_ has joined #owpworkflow 14:09:43 and printer also use new technologies 14:09:55 Drafts are available at http://www.pwg.org 14:10:13 Jirka has joined #owpworkflow 14:13:23 Question from Mohamed Zergaoui, Innovimax: 14:13:50 ... What's it supposed to be printer (PDF, HTML, ...)? 14:14:18 liam has joined #owpworkflow 14:14:46 Bill: Input is out of scope, PWD solves print production - like binding, duplex, ... 14:15:35 Q from Daniel Glazman, Discuptive Innovation: CSS rules and overrides can always override print job ticket in a default ticket. So restrictions will not work. 14:16:19 Bill: In many scenarios user's can't provide user stylesheet (e.g. in print kios). 14:16:28 s/kios/kiosk/ 14:17:35 Dave Cramer: We do single source HTML publishing to many output formats. For us it's natural to put such info into CSS. 14:18:06 Adam Hyde: Is there plan to extend it for no-hard-copy formats? 14:19:18 Todd Carpenter, NISO 14:20:11 Members are publishers, SW industry and libraries 14:22:39 A lot of "intelligence" is lost from XML when transformed to HTML 14:23:53 Long term preservation of documents requires standards for long-term suitable formats 14:26:17 There are many different organizations that overlaps but little bit different needs 14:28:18 But W3C membership doesn't represent print publishing very well 14:31:17 References http://xkcd.com/927/ 14:31:51 People involved in standards should talk more each to other 14:32:28 +1 to what Ivan says 14:32:30 Ivan: W3C doesn't want to develop any new standards in a publishing area 14:33:16 But IDPF and others depend on W3C technologies and publishers are underrepresented in W3C 14:34:38 W3C want to setup bridges, so requirements are reflected in Web standards 14:37:09 Q from Daniel Glazman: 95% of EPUB are from W3C, rendering is done in browsers, publishers should join W3C, otherwise they will not have influence on technologies they depend on 14:39:37 Markus Gylling, IDPF: IDPF hopes to use W3C power to overcome vendor lockin in the area of readers. 14:41:36 Ted O'Connor: Longevity of web will be longer then of any other organization. So web formats are suitable for long-term archivation. 14:42:48 Todd: There is much more structural intelligence in the special formats then in web based distribution formats 14:44:36 Robin Berjon, W3C: I see two misconceptions. HTML is not only for rendering, it's also structured storage, which can be extended if there is something missing 14:45:55 HTML will last long as it has many implementations. 14:47:12 Mohamed: PDF formats for archiving are just 10 years old. Why HTML based ones should be develop faster? Archiving has many solutions but none is perfect. HTML can solve many of them. 14:48:27 Ivan: Probably we should make similar event with archiving industry. 14:49:58 Bill: Currently many users author in JATS, DocBook or TEI but in final HTML a lot of metadata is thrown away. 14:51:50 Jirka has joined #owpworkflow 14:54:59 ???: We need markup for footnotes, would be nice to standardize how to markup them in HTML. 14:55:12 fantasai_ has joined #owpworkflow 14:55:28 It's also better for CSS, I think, if the footnote and context are marked up together! 14:55:38 s/???/Elizabeth 14:55:40 Christina: Many publishers are not experienced with digital workflow. 14:56:12 e.g.

some sentence

would be great 14:56:44