20:30:38 RRSAgent has joined #svg 20:30:38 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-irc 20:30:40 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:30:40 Zakim has joined #svg 20:30:42 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 20:30:42 ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM already started 20:30:43 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 20:30:43 Date: 12 September 2013 20:30:56 Zakim, who is on the call? 20:30:56 On the phone I see +1.425.373.aaaa, [IPcaller] 20:31:03 Zakim, [ is me 20:31:03 +birtles; got it 20:31:25 heycam: Can not call in 20:31:37 heycam: just status update on Matrix 20:31:42 +[IPcaller] 20:32:04 Zakim, [IP is me 20:32:04 +ed; got it 20:32:05 + +1.612.789.aabb 20:32:07 heycam: we (CSS WG) decided to prefix all new geometry APIs with DOM 20:32:15 +[IPcaller] 20:32:16 Zakim, [ is me 20:32:16 +heycam; got it 20:32:18 heycam: means Matrix would be DOMMatrix 20:32:37 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/0091.html 20:32:42 krit, ok. good thing I haven't organised the document to be published yet. (sorry.) 20:32:51 heycam: I will update the spec today so that it is ready for publication 20:32:55 Zakim, who is on the call? 20:32:55 On the phone I see +1.425.373.aaaa, birtles, ed, +1.612.789.aabb, heycam 20:32:55 zakim, 1.612 is me 20:32:57 sorry, TavAndro, I do not recognize a party named '1.612' 20:33:00 +nikos 20:33:41 zakim, +1.612 is me 20:33:41 +TavAndro; got it 20:33:50 scribenick: nikos 20:34:05 Topic: Merging Text chapter rewrite into SVG 2 20:34:17 Zakim, who's here? 20:34:17 On the phone I see +1.425.373.aaaa, birtles, ed, TavAndro, heycam, nikos 20:34:19 On IRC I see RRSAgent, birtles, ThomasSmailus, TavAndro, tav_, thorton, krit, cabanier, Tav, nikos, stearns, plinss, jaseg, TabAtkins, pdr, trackbot, ed, heycam 20:35:07 tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/publish/text.html 20:35:33 Tav: I've restructured this chapter under the premise that SVG 2 will define text in terms of CSS 20:35:39 ... in such a way that SVG 1.1 text is still valid 20:35:49 ... SVG 1.1 text is a special case 20:35:58 ... everything defined in terms of a content area (CSS term) 20:36:10 ... SVG 1.1 the content area is an infinite rect 20:36:17 ... introduction now reflects that 20:36:22 ... and text layout sections 20:36:39 ... I'd like people to comment whether this is the right direction 20:36:46 ... and whether I should move my changes to the current ED 20:37:15 heycam: I'm in favour of this direction. It fits in well with my implementation 20:37:22 ... you should do the merge 20:37:34 ... I wonder if a bit more work is required before we publish next WD 20:37:57 Tav: I've marked lots of little issues 20:38:09 ... which CSS levels do we reference, etc 20:38:22 ... over the next few meetings it would be good to work through those issues 20:38:26 heycam: seems like a good approach 20:38:36 Tav: it's a very big chapter 20:38:42 heycam: I'm keen to reduce stuff in this chapter 20:38:52 ... a lot of the properties don't need to be defined in this chapter 20:38:55 ... we can refer to CSS 20:39:01 ... mode, direction, unicode bidi, etc 20:39:27 Tav: I'd like a reader to be able to get an idea of what the property is about 20:39:36 heycam: it's fine to mention them, just not full definitions 20:39:47 ... in favour of lots of examples 20:39:54 Tav: I'll work on getting more in 20:40:04 ... the way CSS defines direction is different than SVG 1.1 20:40:08 ... it's kind of reversed 20:41:11 ... various little inconsistencies to be worked out 20:41:48 heycam: I don't think we've discussed the individual properties. We've just generally talked about referencing CSS 20:42:29 ... I think it's a good idea to bring them up over future meetings 20:42:47 ed: I think the way that bidi works in SVG is not consistent with various browsers so we don't risk breaking much if we change how it works 20:42:53 ... that's my experience anyway 20:43:27 s/consistent with various/consistent across the various/ 20:43:33 heycam: bidi text should be pretty good in Firefox now 20:44:42 Tav: If no other comments, I'll merge it into the ED when I get back to France 20:45:32 Topic: Connector syntax 20:45:43 http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml 20:45:53 Tav: I started on a connector proposal 20:46:18 ... the proposal I have is fairly simple 20:46:27 ... The main thing is the 'point' element 20:46:36 ... we talked about this being standalone as well as for connectors 20:46:43 ... you define connectors between the points 20:47:04 ... what I'd like to do is to define the point inside a rectangle so I can use the bounding box of the rectangle to place the point 20:47:20 ... InkScape implementation currently relies on groups so doesn't have this ability yet 20:47:46 ... connector is just a straight line at the moment 20:47:51 ... I think that's fine to start with 20:48:08 ... start and end are specified by order not explicitly 20:48:27 ... Next step is to have intermediate points 20:48:46 ... This allows corners 20:48:59 ... If you flip the connector over, the points will also flip 20:49:10 ... sometimes you want to specify a path 20:49:20 ... example 4 shows that 20:49:31 ... the one major point I've found relates to using symbols 20:49:55 ... it would be good to re-use symbols in a connected diagram like this 20:50:00 ... how to you specify a point on a symbol? 20:50:11 ... I don't have a solution at the moment 20:50:21 ... I have an example of what I'd like to achieve 20:50:32 ... Can you guys think of a way? 20:51:01 ... I envision a 'level 2' spec with additional routing features 20:51:27 ... a list of 'ports' which are points and the router decides the best to connect to 20:52:07 heycam: In the past we've talked about how far to go with routing. Possibly don't want too much automatic routing. 20:52:33 Tav: Another extension is to specify a radius that would control curve of the connection 20:52:55 ... There isn't that much difference between connectors and paths 20:53:25 ... you could do connectors with paths by specifying a connector-type and overriding the d attribute 20:53:46 ... ultimately I'd like to not have a connector element, but to place the attributes on ptah 20:53:50 s/ptah/path 20:54:02 Tav: enables fall back as well 20:54:08 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg 20:54:31 heycam: maybe instead of having connector path attribute you could change the path data syntax to reference points 20:54:40 ... that would destroy the fall back mechanism though 20:54:53 Tav: you get some of that by using relative path elements 20:55:10 heycam: The other thing that we've talked about was having more control regarding the automatic ports on a shape 20:55:22 ... percentages work well for bounding box of rect, but not so much for circle 20:55:40 Tav: for circles, you describe the points relative to the transformed bounding box 20:56:05 +Rich 20:56:19 heycam: Let's say you have two circles. You want the bottom right most point of one circle connecting to the top most point of the other 20:56:27 heycam: You'd have to do some trig 20:56:51 Tav: one possible solution would be to define the point at the centre and tell the connector it stops at the edge of the object. 20:57:06 ... I think it adds a level of complexity that will make implementing difficult initially 20:57:16 heycam: I think it will be a common use case 20:57:33 Tav: We should think of a way to do it but I don't think it should be in Level 1 20:58:26 heycam: Overall I think this looks like a good starting point 20:58:38 Forcing trig just to do one of the most common things in level 1 isn't great... 20:58:39 Tav: I'd like to get comments from Doug 20:59:15 Tav: The one major problem I have is how to reference a point in a symbol 21:00:05 heycam: Maybe not using id within the symbol, using some exported name, and having a separate syntax inside the point 21:00:21 ... The only place this might have come up in CSS is web components 21:00:35 ... I think there's a way to have CSS connectors cross the boundary and reference things in the shadow tree 21:00:45 ... maybe a selector based mechanism could work? 21:00:55 Tav: I'm not in favour of adding selector type stuff to the syntax 21:01:02 heycam: It would significantly complicate it 21:01:22 ... Did you want to get comments from Doug before everyone decides whether this should be an ED? 21:02:16 Tav: I'm not sure what the next step is. Doug has a connectors draft also so want his input. 21:02:53 heycam: How about you ask Doug to give comments within the next week to see if the general direction fits in with his draft 21:03:13 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/connector/SVGConnector.html 21:03:52 Tav: how do people feel about defining point in another object? 21:03:56 heycam: makes sense to me 21:04:21 Tav: I'll email Doug 21:04:52 Action: Tav to discuss with Doug and look at merging text from his connectors proposal in with Doug's proposal 21:04:52 Created ACTION-3524 - Discuss with doug and look at merging text from his connectors proposal in with doug's proposal [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2013-09-19]. 21:05:46 Topic: Planning Survey 21:05:49 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/0095.html 21:06:09 heycam: Cam posted to the mailing list. Just a reminder to please fill it out so that we can plan the coming year. 21:06:17 oops that was ed 21:06:54 Topic: New Name for Paint Order Property 21:07:23 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/0093.html 21:07:38 heycam: last I heard, the CSS WG didn't have a strong opinion on the name 21:07:39 .. I don 21:07:45 ... I don't think they out and out disliked it 21:08:29 Tav: CSS don't use the word paint. But the concept in SVG is very ingrained 21:08:37 ... I'm not sure another word would be better 21:09:00 ... CSS WG are worried about connection between z-order and paint-order 21:09:09 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/zindex.html talks about "Painting order", which includes painting parts of objects in a particular order (background, borders, etc.) 21:09:34 Tav: I'm inclined to ask CSS WG for more details on why they don't like 'paint-order' 21:09:56 heycam: CSS 2.1 defines a painting order which defines the painting of the whole subtree 21:10:05 ... but also defines order within an object 21:10:24 ... so painting order is already being used there to mean what I intended with 'paint-order' 21:10:43 ... CSS WG might consider it confusing if their painting order includes order of elements as well 21:11:02 Tav: I'd like to make sure they are clear that we are not talking about z-order 21:11:07 ... I'm not sure that was understood 21:11:39 heycam: none of the other suggested names have read as well as paint-ordre 21:11:45 s/paint-ordre/paint-order 21:11:45 We definitely know it's not about z-order. 21:12:49 heycam: I wonder if there's a CSS term for the parts of an element? 21:12:57 like border, background, etc.? 21:13:09 ed: In general I think this could be applied to how CSS boxes are painted, but I'm not sure it's that interesting 21:14:18 heycam: shape-part-order? 21:14:46 nikos: what about something like in-shape-order to differentiate that it's within the leement and not the scene 21:15:00 heycam: so how do we proceed? 21:15:11 ... if we can't come up with a name that we all think is better? 21:15:21 Tav: I think we should go back to the CSS group 21:15:32 s/leement/element 21:16:29 ed: We'll let them know we haven't come up with improved suggestions 21:17:19 heycam: Cameron to email the CSS WG regarding the naming of paint-order 21:17:28 Action: Cameron to email the CSS WG regarding the naming of paint-order 21:17:28 Created ACTION-3525 - Email the css wg regarding the naming of paint-order [on Cameron McCormack - due 2013-09-19]. 21:17:58 Topic: Timeline for SVG 2 21:18:09 Tav: Is there anything major that hasn't gone in yet? 21:18:14 heycam: We should consult the wiki page 21:18:24 birtles: I still need to work on variable width stroke 21:18:29 Those "parts" are the boxes of the element. 21:18:49 Alternately: layers. 21:18:54 richardschwerdtfeger: The UI events spec is still changing constantly and we are referencing it 21:19:00 ... for mouse events, keyboard, etc 21:19:14 ... we took out mutation events but we're waiting for it to settle 21:19:21 ... I don't know what their timeline is 21:19:25 ... I'll email them 21:19:59 heycam: There's a couple of things that Doug wanted to do, like Catmull Rom curve 21:20:19 Tav: I've not seen progress so I don't know if we have time 21:20:30 heycam: That's one I really wanted to see in 21:20:47 birtles: There's also the outstanding work of integrating iframe and video 21:21:10 ... Takagi-san has the action. I'll help him. 21:21:20 ed: Dirk is listed for video 21:21:27 ... and for track 21:21:43 ... but it's possible theres multiple actions for it 21:21:48 ed: I was wondering about the namespace thing 21:21:56 ... It's one of the bigger things that I'd like to see go in 21:22:13 heycam: That's on Chris 21:22:38 s/namespace thing/xlink namespace removal 21:23:01 ... my point in bringing up this topic is to propose that we have some cut off date where if progress hasn't been made on a feature, then we'll drop it 21:23:12 ... a couple of months before release 21:23:56 ... I'm proposing end of first quarter 2014 21:24:07 Tav: that should be plenty of time 21:25:13 Tav: I would consider moving it up, since once the text is in there is still lots of discussion,etc required 21:25:16 heycam: I would consider that 21:25:33 ... there are a bunch of non-feature things to do - cleaning up, referencing, etc 21:25:48 ... that kind of work, I imagine, will be the last that we do before LCWD 21:26:19 Tav: I'd propose end of the year 21:26:27 heycam: I'd suggested LCWD in Q1 21:26:45 ... which would make the cut off in January or December 21:27:29 ... May co-inside with our first F2F of 2014 21:27:36 ... have all feature stuff in by then 21:27:48 ... if it's early we can have stuff added then spend F2F discussing issues 21:27:59 ... then spend rest of quarter fixing up spec 21:28:37 - +1.425.373.aaaa 21:28:39 heycam: easiest to just say end of 2013 is feature cut off date 21:28:42 all: that's ok 21:28:57 RESOLUTION: End of 2013 will be cut off date for adding new features to SVG 2 draft 21:29:20 Topic: TPAC 21:29:36 birtles: I'd like to settle on a day for the combined CSS day so we can organise our travel 21:29:45 heycam: will either be Tuesday or Thursday or a combination of the two 21:29:52 birtles: if it's not going to be Monday then that's fine 21:30:20 -Rich 21:30:21 -heycam 21:30:23 -birtles 21:30:23 -TavAndro 21:30:25 -nikos 21:30:25 GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM has ended 21:30:25 Attendees were +1.425.373.aaaa, [IPcaller], birtles, ed, +1.612.789.aabb, heycam, nikos, TavAndro, Rich 22:02:34 RRSAgent, make minutes 22:02:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-minutes.html nikos 22:33:51 krit has joined #svg 22:35:05 krit1 has joined #svg 23:16:27 tav_ has joined #svg 23:44:40 tav_ has joined #svg