01:38:40 DavidBooth has joined #rdfval 03:44:13 SteveS has joined #rdfval 04:58:43 mib_x8cefa has joined #rdfval 06:53:02 Zakim has left #rdfval 12:59:01 RRSAgent has joined #rdfval 12:59:01 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/11-rdfval-irc 13:03:36 SteveS has joined #rdfval 13:03:59 is zakim in listen-only mode? 13:04:41 Arnaud has joined #rdfval 13:06:16 Zakim has joined #rdfval 13:06:40 sorry guys we're a bit behind 13:06:43 hang in there 13:06:52 eric is setting up the phone 13:07:08 zakim, this is rdfval 13:07:08 ok, Arnaud; that matches SW_(RDFVal)8:30AM 13:08:20 Slides http://www.slideshare.net/jelabra/validating-statistical-index-data-using-sparql-qeries 13:08:27 gjiang has joined #rdfval 13:08:36 rmb has joined #rdfval 13:08:37 +Workshop_room 13:08:44 ok, we're on 13:08:46 nmihindu has joined #rdfval 13:08:57 please, join in, we're starting 13:09:00 ssimister has joined #rdfval 13:09:38 hsolbri has joined #rdfval 13:10:21 Zakim, pick a victim 13:10:21 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Workshop_room 13:10:42 Jose Gayo - Validating statistical index data represented in RDF using SPARQL queries 13:10:54 dbooth has joined #rdfval 13:10:59 AAshok_Malhotra has joined #rdfval 13:11:02 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:11:02 On the phone I see kcoyle, [IPcaller], [IPcaller.a], Workshop_room 13:11:10 mgh has joined #rdfval 13:11:14 TimCole has joined #rdfval 13:11:15 scribenick: hsolbri 13:11:44 -Workshop_room 13:11:53 ok, we're calling back 13:12:08 +Workshop_room 13:12:17 still whooshing 13:12:29 soporific? 13:12:36 this happened briefly yesterday then went away 13:13:25 roger has joined #rdfval 13:13:40 we'll try to reboot in a desperate move 13:14:25 well, we haven't published the minutes per se but the irc log is available 13:14:41 Motivation - Webindex Project 13:14:42 [http://www.slideshare.net/jelabra/validating-statistical-index-data-using-sparql-qeries slide 2] 13:14:55 jose: developed for web index 13:15:12 ... we developed the data portal for web index 13:15:12 Visualization and data portal 13:15:26 [slide 3] 13:15:33 GR has joined #rdfval 13:15:34 jose: the workflow involves: 13:15:39 irc log: http://www.w3.org/2013/09/10-rdfval-irc#T13-56-38 13:15:48 ... .. get data from external sources 13:16:02 ... .. statisticians produce index 13:16:14 ... .. we map that to RDF and provide visualizations 13:16:31 Conversion is from Excel to RDF 13:16:38 rrsagent, make logs public 13:16:54 +Workshop_room.a 13:17:29 tbaker: the piratepad has quite a bit of content http://piratepad.net/E255z6M73S 13:17:31 jose: Technical details. 61 countries, 85 indicators. > 1megatriple, linked to DBpedia, etc. 13:18:17 WebIndex slide 13:18:24 [slide: WebIndex computation process (1)] 13:18:53 -Workshop_room 13:19:00 dbooth_ has joined #rdfval 13:19:39 Jose Emilio is talking about http://thewebindex.org/ and its use of http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-data-cube/ 13:21:48 DaveReynolds has joined #rdfval 13:22:52 link should be ther. i forgt to remove the "not available" text 13:23:09 Jose: Used SPARQL CONSTRUCT instead of ASK 13:23:23 ... empty graph if ok, else RDF graph with error 13:23:42 gjiang has joined #rdfval 13:23:51 [slide: SPARQL queries RDF Data Cube] 13:24:53 [slide: limitations of SPQRAL expressivity] 13:25:12 s/SPQRAL/SPARQL/ 13:25:30 +[IPcaller.aa] 13:25:50 Jose: Challenge computing series computation on RDF collections 13:26:48 -DaveReynolds 13:27:19 +hhalpin 13:27:29 Jose: Idea of RDF Profiles for dataset families 13:28:40 could it be the mouse? 13:29:11 Jose: http://computex.herokaupp.com 13:29:29 Jose: Source code in Scala (site on slides) 13:30:36 Jose: http://herokuapp.com/ - demo site 13:32:39 Jose: Webindex as use case, SPARQL as implementation, RDF Profiles (declaritive, Turtle) 13:33:05 ddolan has joined #rdfval 13:35:18 hsolbrig has joined #rdfval 13:35:30 (somewhat related, SKOS validation - http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/webstage/validation - also just a structure) 13:35:31 gqjiang has joined #rdfval 13:35:36 jose: you can check e.g. that one observation is in one slice but not much more expressivity than that 13:36:27 ashok: if SPARQL works for a fairly complicated situation, why are we thinking about anything else? 13:36:34 jose: SPARQL is hard to debug 13:36:44 gjiang has joined #rdfval 13:37:07 ... we need to differentiate validating the graph vs. a dataset 13:38:04 ... with SPARQL, we can test specific values in a particular graph 13:38:05 A couple of interesting, albeit unrelated ideas here... 13:38:19 ... though we could compile ShEx to SPARQL 13:38:27 ... signing RDF - how do you generate a reproducable MD5 w/o order? 13:38:56 ... functional patterns for RDF lists. Should there be "best practices"? 13:40:20 PhilA: is slide 11 a candidate profile? 13:40:27 ... if so, i see it as too complicated 13:41:18 ... we have two req: validation and form creation. too complex for the latter 13:41:38 ericP: is that 'cause of the expressivity, or 'cause it's in RDF? 13:41:49 PhilA: i suppose 'cause it's in RDF 13:42:26 evren: re: UI generation, the issue is not the syntax, it's the SPARQL query. that's where the shape of the data is described 13:42:33 scribenick: ericP 13:43:38 PhilA: EU reqs are "don't make me need to speak SPARQL to generate a UI" 13:43:44 gjiang has joined #rdfval 13:46:26 gjiang: did you use SPARQL extensions? 13:46:39 jose: we weren't happy when we had to use jena:sqrt 13:46:41 hsolbri has joined #rdfval 13:46:55 gjiang: maybe there can be a link from SPARQL to some statistical package 13:47:31 scribe: DavidBooth 13:47:57 topic: Stardog ICV 13:48:52 slides: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/6/61/Stardog_ICV_RDF_Validation_Workshop.pdf 13:50:27 slide 3 13:50:44 +??P39 13:50:46 Slides are not numbered. :( 13:51:09 hsolbri has joined #rdfval 13:51:15 TallTed has joined #rdfval 13:51:29 Zakim, ??P39 is dbs 13:51:29 +dbs; got it 13:52:34 slide 5 13:53:15 slide 7 13:55:18 slide 8 13:57:25 Semantics in OWL are for inference not suitable for validation 13:58:43 slide 10 14:00:33 slide 11 14:00:45 Rule syntax for constraints 14:01:21 slide 12 14:01:32 slide 13 14:01:33 arthur has joined #rdfval 14:06:00 Evren: if each person must have two parents, but only one was specified, inference can determine that there is another parent, and then the validation can be applied after inference. 14:06:34 (Evren talks to a slide that is not in the uploaded slides) 14:08:12 Evren: tool figures out explanation of validation. 14:08:36 slide 15 14:08:56 evren: i agree with the folks that said we need good explanations of errors but don't believe the constraints author should have to write the explanation. that should be the tool. 14:09:36 ... we have definitions of constraints in W3C specs so we should capture those 14:11:15 EricP: Re validation and reasoning, SPARQL semantics say you have an RDF graph, but how you got it is up to you. The reasoning just changes what graph you use. Do you think that's a good model for validation use with entailment? If so, then we don't have to think about entailment. 14:11:40 Evren: Yes. 14:12:06 Arnaud: The question is whether the language allows you to specify that entailment should be used. 14:12:13 arthur: the quesiton is "does the language you use allow you to specify the entailment?" 14:12:36 s/arthur: the quesiton/Arnaud: the question/ 14:12:37 Arthur: Initially you propopsed to just change the OWL namespace. Is that what you use now? 14:13:29 Evren: No, that would require using all the tool chains. You just execute it through the validation. That's why at the tool level you need to separate the axioms from the constraints. 14:14:36 Arthur: How would you associate the constraints with a graph? 14:16:08 PhilA: A proposal (from Paul Davidson) is to add a property to VoID that links a dataset to a profile (constraint set) 14:16:23 Evren: You could use named graphs, to have your constraints in a named graph. You need to keep them separate. Axiom annotations could also be used to indicate constraints, but we didn't do that because axiom annotations are a lot like reification, and tools may not treat them well. 14:16:53 EricP: What if someone interprets constraints as inference rules accidentally? 14:18:21 Evren: under OWA it would just infer that person085 is a manager, instead of determining (under CWA) that there is an error because person085 is not a manager. 14:18:54 @@1: how can i read this to learn about the graph to e.g. generate a form? 14:19:23 evren: you can thing about it as the SPARQL BGP describes the graph 14:19:47 ... so we see "someValuesFrom" and we'll create a text box, ... 14:20:07 (Evren explains how constraint can be represented in SPARQL) 14:20:15 _: What about optional properties? 14:20:20 @@1: how would i describe optional properties 14:20:41 evren: right, you wouldn't write that in the constraints langauge 14:21:24 Arthur: It's not really a constraint, it's a graph descriptoin. 14:21:55 +1 to last speaker, optional properties are needed for describing the data "shape" as part of publish/consume contract, even though they are not part of validation 14:22:13 Arthur: You want to describe a contract with a service, and part of the contract is that a property can appear 0+ times. 14:23:22 evren: we added "min 0" to our OWL constraint. it's not actionable during constraints checking but it describes the graph 14:24:09 Topic: Bounds: Expressing Reservations about incoming Data, Martin Skjaeveland 14:24:15 slides: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/e/e5/MSkjaeveland_w3c-rdfval2013.pdf 14:26:25 slide 2 14:27:40 slide 3 14:30:32 slide 4 14:30:40 slide 5 14:31:56 slide 6 14:34:14 Arthur: What do you mean by element? Does it depend on ts position? 14:34:25 Martin: By element I mean S P O in a graph. 14:34:48 s/P O/P or O/ 14:35:05 s/I mean/I mean a/ 14:36:04 slide 7 14:38:48 slide 8 14:40:47 slide 9 14:42:46 slide 10 14:43:15 slide 1 14:43:17 slide 11 14:44:58 slide 13 14:47:21 Evren: What kind of use cases for ontology hijacking? 14:47:41 Martin: Can check if you are adding domain and range axioms. 14:48:53 Evren: OWL RD only allows things that can be expressed with one triple. Cannot have someValuesFrom, allValuesFrom, (and some others). 14:49:03 if I say MyNewType is a subClassOf http://schema.org/Person, versus MyNewType is a superTypeOf http://schema.org/Person ... people tend to see the latter as weirder, the former as acceptable and non-hijack-y 14:49:25 _: Re ont hijacking that adds statements. What about removing statements? what effect does it have? 14:49:48 s/_: Re ont/gjiang: Re ont/ 14:49:53 martin: no, only considered use cases of receiving data and protecting existing dataset. 14:50:40 Eric: Use case came from practical considerations or theoretical? 14:51:00 Martin: We did prior work on managing RDF transformations. This is transforming by adding. 14:51:28 EricP: SADI project is all about inferring extra triples. Their rules are written in OWL LD. 14:52:19 scribe: PhilA 14:52:22 -kcoyle 14:52:23 scribeNick: PhilA 14:52:31 -hhalpin 14:52:35 Coffee 14:52:40 coffee++ 14:55:47 Eric? 15:00:15 -[IPcaller] 15:01:08 I can hear tbaker (assuming tbaker = Tom) 15:06:13 DaveReynolds has left #rdfval 15:10:57 ssimister has joined #rdfval 15:19:18 Next up OSCL Resource Shapes 15:19:19 Arthur's slides: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/File:OSLC_Resource_Shapes.pptx 15:19:21 slides http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/File:OSLC_Resource_Shapes.pptx 15:19:35 hsolbri has joined #rdfval 15:19:51 rmb has joined #rdfval 15:20:02 Arthur's paper https://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/b/b7/RDFVal_Fokuoe_Ryman.pdf 15:20:20 Topic: OSLC Resource Shape: A Linked Data Constraint Language 15:20:24 slide 1 - 1 slide intro to OSLC 15:20:26 SteveS has joined #rdfval 15:21:24 Arthur: IBM customers want tools that cover the product life cycle and beyond 15:21:33 +kcoyle 15:22:17 Arthur: core specs delivered to W3C, being worked on in LDP WG. More domain specific specs gone to OASIS 15:22:47 ... customers bothered by lack of XML Schema analogue 15:23:41 ... came up with minimal language 15:24:39 Slide 5 15:24:59 slide 6 15:25:32 RDF/XML snippet shown is a resource shape for a bug report 15:25:43 slide 7 15:26:51 Does data have to be in the graph or is it externally referenced, for e.g. 15:27:01 hsolbrig has joined #rdfval 15:27:18 slide 8 15:28:33 Arthur: Creation factory is the data source, query capability is the endpoint (scribe paraphrase) 15:29:52 arthur: data can link to its description (its shape) 15:30:34 slide 9 15:32:06 slide 10 is an example 15:32:16 rogerm has joined #rdfval 15:33:11 Declarative list of properties etc. Encoded in turtle 15:34:55 arthur: OSLC is just a vocabulary, it's not an ontology. How you use it is up to you 15:35:36 slides 11 - 16 show the spec 15:35:44 slide 17 15:36:10 Arthur: SPARQL seems good for the task of testing against the resource shape 15:37:14 ericP: I notice people favour returning True if there's a failure (the inverse of OSLC model) 15:37:32 Arthur: OK, but you want data to be returned so you cna fix it 15:39:28 slide 18-19 15:39:56 slide 20 - Summary 15:40:46 Arthur: OSLC has been around about 3 years 15:40:54 ??: How does this relate to WSDL? 15:41:08 s/??: How/hsolbrig: How/ 15:41:10 Arthur: It's in the same spirit 15:41:20 ... you cna check for properties, cardinalities etc. 15:41:42 s/cna/can/ 15:41:44 gjiang has joined #rdfval 15:43:20 Arthur: I was in the WSDL WG and this one - I suggested re-using WSDL but there was too much baggage. WSDL basically too complicated although I fear we may have thrown away too much. We need a way to express constraints on RDF 15:43:50 hsolbrig: Is there a spec for the semantics of OSLC? 15:43:50 evrensirin has joined #rdfval 15:44:07 Arthur: The semantics would be formalised using SPARQL 15:44:20 q+ ask about deletes 15:44:34 q+ to aks about deletes 15:44:49 Discussion of what 'read only' means 15:45:00 q? 15:45:27 ack evrensirin 15:45:27 evrensirin, you wanted to aks about deletes 15:45:31 ack evrensirin 15:45:50 evrensirin: you said something about the payload? 15:46:03 arthur: you might want to specify a pre-condition for a delete 15:46:12 s/about the payload/about not needing to do anything about DELETE/ 15:46:14 ... that's a good point. The context of the constraint is important 15:47:01 arthur has joined #rdfval 15:47:09 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/e/ef/Baker-dc-abstract-model-revised.pdf 15:47:37 labra has joined #rdfval 15:47:59 PhilA has joined #rdfval 15:48:54 tbaker: paper https://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/4/4a/RDFVal_Coyle_Baker.pdf 15:49:01 topic: Description Set Profiles 15:49:12 slides http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/e/ef/Baker-dc-abstract-model-revised.pdf 15:49:33 tbaker: Gives background on DC. Application Profiles date from 2000 15:50:12 slide 2 15:50:49 slide 3 15:51:14 slide 4 15:51:21 slide 5 15:51:43 slide 6 15:51:44 rmb has joined #rdfval 15:51:51 tbaker: Looks more like a record format 15:51:52 slide 7 15:52:21 slide 8 15:52:33 description set document: http://dublincore.org/documents/dc-dsp/ 15:52:48 slide 9 15:54:08 slide 10 shows same data in XML 15:54:24 tbaker: So can we validate the extracted data 15:54:59 tbaker: Defined a small set of constraints that we saw being used in the DC community in their app profiles 15:55:14 ... being produced as natural language text 15:55:56 slide 12 15:57:04 slide 13 15:57:24 tbaker: Just flash this up - it's the entire set of templates defined in the description set profile constraint language 15:57:26 slide 14 15:57:49 slide 15 15:58:19 slide 16 15:58:35 tbaker: The motivation was to help people author application profiles in a consistent way 15:59:13 ... here's a screenshot from an experiment that sadly no longer exists although there is some Python code I can share 15:59:33 ... it shows a tabular presentation of a profile - a style people are used to 15:59:38 slide 17 15:59:59 tbaker: constraints are being embadded in the source of the wiki page in a controlled way 16:00:01 slide 18 16:00:30 slide 19 16:00:46 tbaker: vision was that the profile could be used to configure editors as well as validators 16:00:48 slide 20 16:01:49 tbaker: We found that people were designing APs without looking at functional requirements 16:02:03 ... so this is an attempt from 2007 to put the APs in context 16:02:20 ... the yellow box is the AP - a set of documentation about the content of your metadata 16:02:42 .... you can also document the domain model it was based on 16:02:53 ... distinction among foundation standards, domain standards, application profile 16:03:37 ... we had some syntax definitions based on the abstract model 16:03:38 slide 21 16:04:48 tbaker: I'm really offering this as a set of requirements that were gathered in the DC community up to 2008 16:04:50 slide 22 16:05:28 tbaker: we wanted to encourage people to base their APs on functional requirements 16:05:29 slide 23 16:06:04 tbaker: wanted to encourage people to model reality but with a light touch 16:06:22 slide 24 16:06:45 tbaker: then we wanted to constrain the data - important for consistency and quality control 16:07:14 ... bridging the gap between people who see the world as a series of records and those whop see unbounded graphs 16:08:46 ... record people, used to XML, just saw it as the latest validation syntax. Some APs were then written as OWL ontologies. Wanted to get people to constrain the data, not the vocabulary (scribe note - hope I got that right) 16:08:50 slide 25 16:10:18 slide 26 16:10:56 PhilA: +1 to the 'Authored in an idiom usable by normal people' requirement 16:11:00 slide 27 16:12:37 Arnaud: Any questions? 16:13:02 tbaker: Before questions - can I ask kcoyle to comment? Anything to add? 16:13:28 kcoyle: My only comment is that I've been doing a back of the envelope on what we have and do not have is DSP language 16:13:54 ... when the requirements are completed, what we might want to do is to look at the existing languages and techniques and see which ones cover what 16:14:14 ... my gut feeling that there may not be a single solution because diff comunities have diff contexts 16:15:02 Arnaud: I hope you'll be able to join us after lunch as that's when we'll step back from the reqs and look at use cases, diff technologies etc. whether they match or not 16:15:23 ... challenge in standards is always to decide on the use cases 16:15:30 ... that's all for after lunch 16:16:44 TimCole: Thinking about APs.... XMl Schema always seem pretty powerful. Does anything on DSP provide any guidance on how we might make a language from what we have? 16:17:39 TimCole: One application might ask for foaf:name, another might want foaf:givenName and foaf:familyName - can I define a constraint doc in some way so that I can add an extra requirement? 16:18:22 tbaker: We refer to a specific set of DPS, or set of them - they're cookie cutters for data 16:19:12 ... in the example from FOAF - those distinctions are defined in the FOAF vocab - the DSP would say what to use but I don't see how that eg would impact the design of the constraint language itself 16:19:45 TimCole: You've defined a profile with lots of things and I want to change one thing. Do I have to repeat the whole thing or can I just define the difference? 16:20:25 tbaker: We did discuss having a layered approach so people can define a basic profile and then just add a layer on. So that's in the same thought process but we decided not to solve that 16:20:34 Arnaud: Anything else? 16:20:47 Topic: Experiences with the Design of the W3C XML Schema Definition Language 16:21:03 Noah's paper https://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/e/ef/RDFVal_Mendelsohn.pdf 16:21:16 Noah's slides http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/c/c8/MendelsohnXMLSchemaPositionPaper.pdf 16:22:00 Arnaud: Noah was involved in XML Schema and so he's here to share his experiences of that 16:23:43 Noah: We went through a lot of things when designing XMLSchema - it has a lot right and a few problems 16:23:50 slide 2 16:24:13 slide 3 16:24:26 Noah: These topics match those in the paper 16:24:48 slide 4 Use Cases 16:25:23 Noah: People came with very different assumptions and ideas and diff ideas about validation 16:25:42 ... some thought the idea was to end up with a Boolean 16:26:26 ... others wanted to say more 16:27:06 ... some people wanted to know that data matched a type and why (data binding) 16:28:12 ... following the 80/20 rule is good but one person's 80 is another's 20 16:28:34 slide 5 16:30:06 Noah: discussed diff between validating doc as a whole or at the element level 16:31:33 Noah: RDF folks better at idea that serialisations are diff versions of same abstract model. That doesn't work so well for all XML folks 16:33:13 slide 6 16:34:03 Noah: No surprise that XML folks write their schemas in XML 16:36:21 ... It's possible that there were better ways of encoding a schema 16:37:39 Noah is talking about the example on page 3 of his paper 16:37:46 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/e/ef/RDFVal_Mendelsohn.pdf 16:38:54 Noah: So the warning is - don't automatically write your schemas in RDF 16:40:22 slide 7 16:40:56 slide 9 - Anticipate versioning 16:41:05 Noah: you're likely to need an answer 16:42:23 ... people find that their previous work needs updating. May need to reinterpret something 16:44:36 ... how do you write a schema on day 1 such that if I get something different you can handle that the supplier might be using a later version of the schema, or even just providing data that is correct and it's the schema that is in error. Do you throw out the whole thing or do you break it down at the element level and highlight the 'error' 16:46:52 ericP: Drills down a little. 16:46:58 In GS1 standards that provide XSD artefacts, we use this mechanism to represent an extension point (wildcard) 16:48:01 Noah: Point is that how to handle such cases is essentially app-specifc 16:48:56 ericP: Did you consider creating a compact syntax? 16:49:20 Noah: I guess you'll want your abstract model to map to RDF - you're used to that 16:50:30 ... we do have the abstract model for XML, it's there. 16:50:32 -dbs 16:50:46 Arnaud: Thank you for coming Noah 16:51:01 Thank you, Noah! 16:51:04 could someone post here when things start up again, for those of us on the phone? thx 16:51:05 ... you're touching points that have been raised 16:51:41 Lunch - will be 25 minutes 16:51:45 -kcoyle 16:51:49 We'll resume at 13:35 EST 16:51:59 s/13:35/13:15/ 16:52:14 PhilA, do you mean 13:35 or 13:15? 17:05:46 -[IPcaller.a] 17:17:27 +??P0 17:17:31 -Workshop_room.a 17:17:31 +Workshop_room.a 17:20:28 mSkjaeveland has joined #rdfval 17:22:03 about to resume meeting 17:22:13 thx 17:22:21 Arnaud: thanks 17:22:45 conf call has gone silent 17:23:09 +kcoyle 17:23:30 -??P0 17:23:31 can you guys here us? 17:23:59 +??P0 17:24:25 Zakim, ??P0 is dbs 17:24:25 +dbs; got it 17:24:38 ssimister has joined #rdfval 17:24:42 scribe-Anamitra 17:24:57 roger has joined #rdfval 17:25:04 aside: thanks to everyone for being so good to us remote attendees :) 17:25:04 it's hard to hear - we may need some structure to be able to get participation of the phone people 17:25:09 Scribe: Anamitra 17:25:14 q+ to talk about queuing 17:25:19 Topic: Discussion 17:25:23 ack me 17:25:23 PhilA, you wanted to talk about queuing 17:25:27 hsolbri has joined #rdfval 17:25:34 +1 dbs -- keeping track of the slides is a big help 17:26:35