IRC log of rdfval on 2013-09-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:58:28 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/10-rdfval-irc
12:58:40 [ericP]
meeting: RDF Validation Workshop
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+[IPcaller]
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+[IPcaller]
13:24:11 [aisaac]
Zakim, IPcaller is me
13:24:11 [Zakim]
+aisaac; got it
13:24:51 [dbooth]
Meeting: RDF Validation Workshop
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13:30:57 [Ashok_Malhotra]
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13:31:25 [mesteban]
Miguel Esteban Gutiérrez - Center for Open Middleware (Universidad Politecnica de Madrid)
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13:32:36 [labra]
Jose Labra presentation: My name is Jose Emilio Labra Gayo (University of Oviedo, Spain). I am interested in this workshop because we have a practical use case on the WebIndex and we have used a SPARQL queries based tool to validate RDF called Computex. We are also interested on RDF profiles
13:32:55 [arthur]
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13:33:18 [GR]
Graham Rong, PhD, from MIT has been working on semantic web application in financial industry
13:33:20 [sandro]
Sandro Hawke, W3C. Staff contact for RDF-WG, GLD-WG, and was for SPARQL, RIF, OWL, Prov
13:34:34 [GR]
http://bit.ly/azitMU Consuming XBRL Financial Information: Semantic Web Prototype App Aims To Make It Easier, Faster, Automatic — And Socially Connected
13:34:42 [GR]
http://bit.ly/RxzPyr Linking XBRL to RDF: The Road To Extracting Financial Data For Business Value
13:35:03 [roger]
Roger Menday, Fujitsu Laboratories of Europe. Working on using Linked Data technologies in the Enterprise
13:35:10 [guoqian]
Hello, my name is Guoqian Jiang from Mayo Clinic, Rochester MN. I am a clinical informatics researcher. My research interests focus on clinical data standards and using semantic web tools for data validation and quality assurance in health domain.
13:35:32 [sandro]
RRSAgent, pointer?
13:35:32 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2013/09/10-rdfval-irc#T13-35-32
13:36:41 [hsolbri]
Harold Solbrig - Mayo Clinic. Focus on Ontologies in clinical research and standardized ontology representation. Editor and author of OMG LQS specification, HL7/ISO Common Terminology Services (CTS) and OMG CTS2. Participant in ISO 11179 and XMDR projects, IHTSDO SNOMED CT, WHO ICD-11 project.
13:37:00 [nandana]
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13:37:23 [DavidBooth]
David Booth, KnowMED. Applying RDF and other semantic web technology to medical records and other healthcare information to facilitate better research and help measure quality of care.
13:37:58 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Oracle. Member of LDP WG. Worked on XML Schema for many, many years!
13:38:07 [mSkjaeveland]
My name is Martin G. Skjæveland, PhD student from University of Oslo, Norway. Will present work on validating incoming RDF data based on what in the receiving dataset.
13:38:16 [arthur]
Arthur Ryman, IBM Rational, developed OSLC Resource Shape spec to fill the void where XML Schema lived, for documenting and specifying REST APIs for Linked Data
13:39:09 [rmb]
Robert Beideman - GS1 - Leveraging RDF and LOD to facilitate availability of trusted, authentic data about Products, Companies, and Services on the Web
13:40:22 [mgh]
Hello - I'm Mark Harrison from the Auto-ID Lab at the University of Cambridge. We have a close collaboration with GS1 in the development of technical standards for supply chain visibility, traceability and electronic pedigree and we've recently been involved in the GS1 Digital project, which is looking at ways to use Linked Open Data for products
13:40:24 [Anamitra]
Anamitra - IBM/Maximo - RDF data introspection
13:40:42 [evrensirin]
Evren Sirin - Clark & Parsia, We develop Stardog RDF database that provide RDF validation capabilities
13:42:06 [timCole]
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13:42:33 [Arnaud]
Arnaud Le Hors ("Arno Luh Oarss"), IBM Linked Data Standards Lead, chair of the LDP WG and of this workshop (former W3C Team member :-)
13:43:14 [timCole]
Tim Cole, Univ of Illinois and W3C Open Annotation Community Group
13:44:02 [Arnaud]
zakim, who's on the phone?
13:44:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.617.715.aaaa, dbs, DaveReynolds (muted), aisaac
13:44:42 [ericP]
Zakim, who is here?
13:44:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.617.715.aaaa, dbs, DaveReynolds (muted), aisaac
13:44:43 [Zakim]
On IRC I see timCole, nmihindu, arthur, sandro, guoqian, Ashok_Malhotra, roger, SteveS_, aisaac, labra, DaveReynolds, kcoyle, mSkjaeveland, rmb, GR, mgh, Anamitra, evrensirin,
13:44:43 [Zakim]
... DavidBooth, RRSAgent, hsolbri, Zakim, Arnaud, dbs, ericP
13:45:44 [SteveS_]
Steve Speicher - IBM SWG Rational - LDP Editor - OSLC community/standards, I work with arthur
13:46:08 [DaveReynolds]
Dave Reynolds, Epimorphics Ltd. Part of GLD working group co-editing Data Cube and Org specs. Among other things work with UK public sector on use of Linked Data which has raised a number of validation-like requirements.
13:47:21 [aisaac]
aisaac is Antoine Isaac, from Europeana - previously working on SKOS. Interested in getting good quality data from numerous, heterogeneous datasets
13:49:12 [Arnaud]
Eric is presenting http://www.w3.org/2012/12/rdf-val/SOTA
13:50:26 [sandro]
Ashok_Malhotra: When we started RDF, folks said it was great BECAUSE it had no schema. Are we changing our mind?
13:50:33 [sandro]
Arnaud: Sounds like JSON :-)
13:51:09 [sandro]
hsolbri: <not scribed :-( >
13:51:30 [sandro]
DaveReynolds: There are lots of different schemas in RDF.
13:51:48 [sandro]
s/DaveReynolds/DavidBooth/
13:51:57 [arthur]
PDF version of my charts at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/File:OSLC_Resource_Shapes.pdf
13:52:10 [sandro]
(who is scribing? Arnaud?)
13:52:37 [Arnaud]
sandro, did you just volunteer? ;-)
13:52:46 [sandro]
scribe: sandro
13:52:50 [Arnaud]
thank you
13:53:08 [sandro]
hsolbri, can you type in what you said to Ashok? I didn't catch it.
13:54:13 [ssimister_]
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13:54:22 [sandro]
topic: Presentation from Mark Harrison (U Cambrdige)
13:55:01 [sandro]
Robert: GS1 - we did bar codes. We work with the Auto-Id Labs (at MIT)
13:55:12 [sandro]
s/at MIT/started here at MIT/
13:55:37 [sandro]
.. GS1 digital, trying to leveral all the master data in the supply chain, business-to-consumer
13:56:16 [sandro]
Mark: (slide with iPones, LOD for products, Pre-Sale)
13:56:38 [sandro]
RRSAgent, pointer?
13:56:38 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2013/09/10-rdfval-irc#T13-56-38
13:57:11 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:57:57 [sandro]
.. more informed choices, eg products with particular environmental impact
14:00:16 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/2012/12/rdf-val/submissions/GS1%20Digital%20-%20W3C%20RDF%20Validation%20Workshop.pdf Mark Harrison's slides
14:00:41 [ericP]
[slide 8]
14:00:51 [ericP]
[slide 9]
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14:05:02 [ericP]
Mark: do we want broken hyperlink checking?
14:05:28 [ericP]
... (can we validate offline)
14:06:04 [Arnaud]
... what is the scope/boundary of what we validate?
14:06:22 [sandro]
mark: When we have these huge code lists, the scale of validation queries might be problematic
14:07:09 [ericP]
Mark: 3000 attributes, hundreds of which are code-list-driven
14:08:09 [hsolbri]
Focus on markup and validation tools rather than the actual validation
14:08:11 [Zakim]
+ +1.510.435.aabb
14:08:35 [aisaac]
zakim, please mute aabb
14:08:35 [Zakim]
+1.510.435.aabb should now be muted
14:08:48 [ericP]
Zakim, aaaa is Workshop_room
14:08:48 [Zakim]
+Workshop_room; got it
14:08:55 [aisaac]
zakim, please unmute aabb
14:08:55 [Zakim]
+1.510.435.aabb should no longer be muted
14:11:28 [DaveReynolds]
+1, publishing and inspecting the contract is at least as important as enforcing the contract
14:11:33 [sandro]
hsolbri: Happy to see these use cases. I think RDF "validation" is not the best framing. I think it's MORE important to publish the characters of what's in a store, rather than just validating.
14:12:08 [sandro]
arthur: This sounds a lot like what we've done at IBM. Can you describe....
14:13:02 [sandro]
mark: It's about making sure you can ... We need to make sure the two datasets are in sync with each other. You need to have confidence that these are the true values asserted by manufacturer. Maybe we could use Dig. Sigs. There's liability to consider.
14:13:26 [sandro]
arthur: you're comparing published data with Reference data. you don't need to comopute a sig
14:13:35 [sandro]
mark: true, we could use prov as an alterantive to sigs
14:13:55 [hsolbri]
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14:14:13 [arthur]
GS1 uses cases very similar to OSLC, except for digital signatures
14:14:29 [sandro]
timcole: The issue cardinality, not validations. Value is correct... unit transformations. 600g = 1.2lbs or whatever. Are you encompassing that in validation?
14:14:34 [sandro]
mark: Yes.
14:14:58 [sandro]
mark: like in eric's example of Reproducted Date -- you want to do checking like that, with units conversion
14:15:28 [sandro]
.. EU legislation says vitamins are expressed in certain units. Sanity checking on values -- to make sure we're not off my orders of magnitude
14:15:39 [sandro]
timCole: Does broaden the scope.
14:15:41 [sandro]
mark: Yes.
14:16:08 [sandro]
Robert: We used to have a closed network for this. To open it to millions of producers makes this more complex.
14:16:34 [sandro]
Ashok_Malhotra: If you want to test whether this date follows this other date, there are xquery functions to handle all of that stuff. So we can just pick them up. We don;t have to invent them again
14:16:41 [sandro]
mark: We should leverage what we can, yes.
14:16:54 [sandro]
mark: And using qudt for conversion of units, and so on.
14:17:11 [sandro]
topic: Harld Solbrig, Mayo Clinic
14:17:20 [sandro]
(slides)
14:18:08 [sandro]
hsolbri: we had "strings" where were kind of like rdf graphs. a ptext code was a sort of ontology
14:18:14 [mgh]
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14:18:26 [sandro]
ptxt
14:20:23 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/9/94/GS1_Digital_-_W3C_RDF_Validation_Workshop.pdf Harold Solbrig's slides
14:21:04 [mgh]
Slides by Mark Harrison and Robert Beideman
14:22:12 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/7/77/RDF_Validation.pptx Harold Solbrig's slides
14:22:28 [Arnaud]
Arnaud has changed the topic to: W3C RDF Validation Workshop - http://www.w3.org/2012/12/rdf-val/agenda (upload slides to: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Special:Upload - preferably PDF or HTML)
14:22:32 [guoqian]
hsolbrig: from ptxt to ASN.1
14:23:27 [mgh]
Slides by Mark Harrison and Robert Beideman are at "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/9/94/GS1_Digital_-_W3C_RDF_Validation_Workshop.pdf"
14:23:30 [sandro]
hsolbri: RDF only guarantees triples, literals
14:25:53 [sandro]
hsolbri: With SPARQL, you have to code EVERYTHING as optional!
14:25:59 [mgh]
In SPARQL need to use OPTIONAL extensively for defensive coding in case value is not present
14:26:03 [sandro]
hsolbri: ... which is NP
14:26:59 [sandro]
hsolbri: SIde note: Dataset (identity is content), Triple store (Identity separate from content)
14:27:38 [guoqian]
hsolbri: a definition about what is RDF store
14:28:20 [sandro]
hsolbri: We should focus on the invariants in an RDF store. The synax MUST provide a way to state the invariants. What will always be true of this store, so when you're writing queries, you know what's optional, what can be in there, what can't be in there.
14:28:32 [sandro]
hsolbri: We need a way for them to be published, and for them to be discovered.
14:28:48 [sandro]
hsolbri: Future -- invariants will change over time.
14:28:48 [guoqian]
hsolbri:RDF validation must provide a standard syntax and semantics for describing RDF invariants
14:29:14 [sandro]
hsolbri: Semantic Versioning. semver.org
14:29:26 [sandro]
hsolbri: That was the MUST. Here's the SHOULD.
14:29:41 [sandro]
.. representable in RDF, maybe also a DSL
14:29:53 [sandro]
.. formally verifiable, consistent, maybe complete
14:29:59 [sandro]
.. self-defining
14:30:18 [sandro]
.. able to express subset of UM 2. class and attribute assertions (and some OCL?)
14:30:31 [sandro]
.. able to express XML Schema invariants
14:30:52 [sandro]
.. implementable in exising tooling and infrastructure (RDF, SPARQL, REST, ...)
14:31:05 [sandro]
(this is slide 17)
14:33:49 [sandro]
hsolbri: Example of allowed transitions -- you're allowed to add subjects, but not to add predicates.
14:34:12 [sandro]
.. spectrum from read-only to write-any-triple.
14:37:57 [guoqian]
hsolbri: LOD today OK for research but not for production systerms
14:38:33 [guoqian]
... OK for relatively static stores but not for federation and evolution
14:38:58 [aisaac]
Question for Harold: Just checking, when you say "All constraints of XML Schema", this includes sequences?
14:39:36 [sandro]
guoqian: You're offering another definition of "store". Is this different from existing defn of named graphs?
14:40:24 [sandro]
hsolbri: I'd have to go back and look at that. I think Named Graphs are local to quad store. ANd I'm focussing on having the identity of a store, but have the contents be constrainted.
14:40:25 [sandro]
q+
14:40:37 [Arnaud]
ack sandro
14:41:04 [ericP]
sandro: as i understand SPARQL11 terminology, a "graph store" can have multiple "states"
14:41:19 [ericP]
... so you're talking about a particular graph store to only contain certain datasets
14:41:32 [aisaac]
q+
14:42:21 [sandro]
Arnaud: people use the term "graph" sometimes to mean something mutable or not, gboxes and gsnaps.
14:42:39 [Arnaud]
ack aisaac
14:42:41 [sandro]
hsolbri: "magic box" was a term we onces used.
14:43:12 [sandro]
aisaac: I heard Harold say he wants to represent all that's allowed by XML Schema. Does that include Sequence Information?
14:43:24 [arthur]
q+
14:44:06 [sandro]
hsolbri: Great question. There are situations where people take advantage of order, but this may be a drawback. so, maybe MOST of XML schema. The challenge is how to get it back out in the right order....
14:44:55 [sandro]
Arnaud: We have on the agenda a presentation from Noah Mendelson, to talk about XML Schema, warning us against reproducing some of their mistakes.
14:45:07 [Arnaud]
ack arthur
14:45:10 [sandro]
Arnaud: Some people will say 20/80 rule, but which 80?
14:45:29 [sandro]
Arnaud: Your summary slide was a bit disappointing/negative.
14:45:40 [Arnaud]
s/Arnaud/Arthur/
14:46:08 [sandro]
hsolbri: I believe fixing this is necessary to to make RDF able to be a primary source for content.
14:46:15 [evrensirin]
q+
14:46:57 [JimMcCusker]
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14:47:03 [sandro]
arthur: I consider your second negative to be a positive. It's why we've adopted RDF. Traditional data warehouses are very expensive because they completely enforce the schema. RDF allows more graceful evolution.
14:48:17 [sandro]
hsolbri: So, the flexibility of RDF is seen as a real advantage. A fellow at OMG used to distinguish between precise and detailed. We publish the invariants that are known, but it's important to be able to leave flexibility. If we make no assertion about firsttname and lastname, then that's important to know, too.
14:48:21 [Arnaud]
ack evrensirin
14:48:51 [sandro]
evrensirin: Graceful evolution of data is an advantage of RDF. That's not about enforcement of schema, but about having the option to not have a schema.
14:49:11 [sandro]
evrensirin: Clarification on post-conditions. State transitions, or states?
14:50:06 [sandro]
hsolbri: Closely related to reasoning. If you're doing anything beyong a basic PUT, adding a triple to a store may involve doing additional inferences, eg adding a firstname may result in the presence of a fullname in a store.
14:50:25 [sandro]
.. what has to be true for this set of rules to fire; what is true if they do.
14:50:33 [sandro]
(not sure I scribed that right!)
14:51:01 [sandro]
topic: Miguel Gutierrez presentation
14:51:36 [sandro]
topic: Miguel Esteban-Gutiérrez presentation
14:51:53 [nmihindu]
slides --> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/3/3f/RVW2013-RDFValidationInALinkedData_World.pptx
15:15:49 [roger]
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15:17:24 [Zakim]
- +1.510.435.aabb
15:17:38 [DaveReynolds]
My slides are at: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/4/43/Dave-reynolds-validation-slides.pdf
15:29:53 [Zakim]
-dbs
15:32:08 [ssimister]
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15:35:08 [Zakim]
+??P68
15:36:44 [Arnaud]
Paul Davidson's video: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-KHr8T2fP_KNXd0cm4wTG9hSjA/edit
15:37:24 [dbs]
Zakim, ??P68 is dbs
15:37:24 [Zakim]
+dbs; got it
15:37:37 [SteveS]
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15:39:26 [DaveReynolds]
aisaac - I'd be happy to swap slots, though that'll only save you 5 mins
15:40:09 [sandro]
scribe: arthur
15:40:16 [mgh]
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15:40:37 [arthur]
video of Linked Data Profiles by Paul Davidson up next
15:40:43 [hsolbri]
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15:41:05 [aisaac]
@DaveRaynolds: thx a lot - let's see what happens with the others, and decide during Dave Booth's presentation?
15:42:46 [Arnaud]
aisaac, we can have you sooner
15:43:26 [Arnaud]
aisaac, how about you go just after Roger?
15:43:46 [Arnaud]
ok
15:44:52 [arthur]
Pauls wants a "Linked Data Profile" that describes the properties, values, etc., that should be used so that multiple coucils in England can share data
15:45:07 [rmb]
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15:45:32 [arthur]
Roger up next
15:45:59 [Arnaud]
Roger's slides: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/File:20130909_rdfvalidation.pdf
15:46:03 [arthur]
described used of REST APIs at Fujitsu
15:46:12 [sandro]
+1 Paul Davidson, make it easier to share municipal data
15:46:20 [arthur]
participating in LDP activity
15:47:21 [Zakim]
+ +1.510.435.aacc
15:47:25 [arthur]
need to descibe parameters to create resources (Progenitor)
15:49:07 [arthur]
use case: enable robots to fill in forms
15:50:04 [arthur]
proposed a vocab (f:parameterSet ...) to be included in an LDP container
15:50:11 [aisaac]
my slides on slideshare: http://www.slideshare.net/antoineisaac/europeana-rdf-validation
15:50:20 [aisaac]
PDF: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/6/6f/Europeana_RDFValidation.pdf
15:51:04 [arthur]
Next: Antoine Isaac - Europeana and RDF data Validation
15:51:44 [arthur]
aggregates data from multiple sources (musems) and need to enforce constraints
15:52:55 [arthur]
described as table: property, occurence, range
15:53:28 [arthur]
using OWL now
15:54:33 [arthur]
EDM is implemented as XML Schema (for RDF) with Schematron rules
15:54:48 [dbs]
EDM = Europeana Data Model
15:55:47 [arthur]
Also using Dublin Core Description Set
15:57:33 [arthur]
OWL = hard, SPARQL = low-level
15:57:37 [DavidBooth]
David Booth's slides: http://dbooth.org/2013/validation/dbooth-slides.pdf
15:58:39 [DaveDolan]
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15:59:04 [arthur]
Next - David Booth -
16:00:11 [arthur]
topic: Thoughs on Healthcare
16:00:40 [guoqian]
-- Schema promiscuous - why RDF?
16:01:38 [aisaac]
Bye folks. It was a great morning. Enjoy the rest of your day, and thx a lot for the slide moving!
16:01:40 [arthur]
multiple schema, multiple data sources
16:01:50 [Zakim]
-aisaac
16:02:21 [arthur]
==> need multiple perspectives on validation of the same data
16:03:47 [arthur]
wish list: build on SPARQL,
16:04:16 [arthur]
use SPARQL UPDATE to build intermediate results (instead of one giant SPARQL query)
16:04:30 [arthur]
check URI patterns
16:05:07 [arthur]
must be incremental so you can do it continuously, e.g. like rgression testing
16:06:03 [arthur]
declarative is too awkward for complex rules ==> need operational (imperative) - SPARQL UPDATE pipelines
16:06:25 [DaveReynolds]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/4/43/Dave-reynolds-validation-slides.pdf
16:06:57 [arthur]
Next - Dave Reynolds - Validate requirements and approaches
16:07:44 [arthur]
currently working with UK gov - multiple vocabs, manual docs, each publsiher validates their data
16:08:21 [arthur]
need a shared validation approach - need to specify "shape" of data
16:08:46 [arthur]
declarative rules are desirable
16:09:13 [arthur]
understandable by "mortals"
16:09:17 [hsolbri]
Interesting - does Reynold's declarative requirement clash with Booth's procedural?
16:10:11 [arthur]
cites W3C Datacube vocab
16:10:28 [DavidBooth]
Harold, I think it depends on the complexity of the validation check. If it can be expressed in a simple declarative rule, then that is easiest. My point is that for more complex checks, operational is needed.
16:10:52 [arthur]
SPARQL used to express Datacube integrity constraints
16:11:21 [arthur]
SPARQL queries hard to understand
16:12:03 [arthur]
for irregular data, OWL is also too hard
16:12:38 [guoqian]
need ability to validate against external services such as registries
16:13:03 [arthur]
need to specify controlled terms too
16:13:32 [arthur]
END OF LIGHTNING TALKS
16:13:41 [arthur]
Start discussion
16:13:55 [DavidBooth]
Topic: Discussion
16:14:53 [arthur]
Arnaud framing discussion - what do we need? What can we afford?
16:16:14 [arthur]
Harold - compare need for procedural steps versus declarative constraints
16:18:10 [arthur]
Harold - must declarative description also be executable (for validation) e.g. by translation to SPARQL
16:18:35 [mesteban]
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16:18:56 [arthur]
Harold - e.g. in many cases, the datastore content is already valid, so the missing capability is to advertise what's in a store
16:19:30 [DaveReynolds]
zakim, +q
16:19:30 [Zakim]
I see DaveReynolds on the speaker queue
16:19:31 [ericP]
q+ to discus XML Schema/RNG + schematron
16:19:43 [evrensirin]
q+
16:19:58 [arthur]
David - desirable to have high-level specification that is translatable to an executable language (SPARQL)
16:20:42 [Arnaud]
ack dave
16:20:54 [arthur]
Arnaud - use the IRC queue system "q+" to get on queue
16:21:32 [DavidBooth]
David: Want the best of both worlds: declarative when a constraint can be easily expressed that way, while allowing fall back to SPARQL when necessary. So to my mind the ideal would be declarative *within* the SPARQL framework.
16:21:47 [Arnaud]
ack eric
16:21:47 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to discus XML Schema/RNG + schematron
16:21:52 [arthur]
Dave - SPARQL is too low level - need high-level description
16:22:24 [arthur]
Eric - uses multiple schema langauges XSD, RelaxNG, Schematron
16:22:56 [Arnaud]
ack evren
16:23:10 [arthur]
Eric - we'll probably have a high-level validation language that is extensible with low-level rules in SPARQL, JS, etc
16:23:11 [hsolbri]
UML has Class, property and OCL (schematron equivalent)
16:24:09 [arthur]
Evren - SPARQL has extension points. Concern about SPARQL UPDATE since it changes data
16:24:19 [timCole]
q+
16:24:26 [arthur]
David - didn't imply to actually change data
16:24:30 [Arnaud]
ack timcole
16:24:38 [hsolbri]
q+ Preconditions validate state of incoming data, postconditions "side effects"
16:24:55 [hsolbri]
q+
16:25:11 [Arnaud]
ack hsolbri
16:25:25 [Ashok_Malhotra]
q+
16:25:30 [arthur]
Tim - OWL wasn't developed for validation, SPARQL wasn't developed for validation - why not have a language without baggage
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16:26:18 [arthur]
Harold - we should be informed by UML
16:26:47 [Arnaud]
ack ashok
16:26:52 [DavidBooth]
s/ - /: /g
16:27:56 [arthur]
Ashok: should split up problem, 1) state, 2) structure, 3) constraints
16:28:24 [DavidBooth]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:28:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/10-rdfval-minutes.html DavidBooth
16:28:34 [DavidBooth]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:29:17 [arthur]
Arnaud: perspectives are 1) validation, 2) description
16:29:46 [arthur]
Eric: description should be translatable to SPARQL, SPIN, whatever
16:29:50 [hsolbri]
q+ to say if it isn't compatible, I think we need a good justification as to why.
16:30:11 [Arnaud]
ack hsolbri
16:30:11 [Zakim]
hsolbri, you wanted to say if it isn't compatible, I think we need a good justification as to why.
16:30:20 [arthur]
Eric: cites Stephan Decker proposal to translate description into SPARQL
16:30:42 [evrensirin]
q+ to talk about what we can afford with sparql translation
16:30:50 [ericP]
q+ to say that coverage of all triples may be tricky in SPARQL
16:30:56 [labra]
q+ to talk about RDF profiles
16:31:04 [arthur]
Harold: cites project to translate UML -> Z - SPARQL
16:31:09 [Arnaud]
ack evren
16:31:09 [Zakim]
evrensirin, you wanted to talk about what we can afford with sparql translation
16:31:31 [guoqian]
hsholbri: working on translating from UML to Z to Sparql
16:31:52 [arthur]
Evren: translation is good implementation strategy, but not for state transitions
16:31:56 [arthur]
q+
16:32:02 [hsolbri]
q+ to say proposed requirement - invariants (and rules?) expressible in RDF
16:32:16 [arthur]
q+ Can use SPARQL by refering to multiple graphs
16:32:33 [Arnaud]
ack eric
16:32:33 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to say that coverage of all triples may be tricky in SPARQL
16:32:49 [DavidBooth]
Chair: Arnaud Le Hors and Harold Solbrig
16:33:04 [arthur]
David: use multiple graphs or datasets to describe pre/post conditions
16:33:47 [Arnaud]
ack labra
16:33:47 [Zakim]
labra, you wanted to talk about RDF profiles
16:33:47 [arthur]
q-
16:34:48 [arthur]
Labra: descibes work on RDF validation based on profiles
16:35:26 [arthur]
Labra: like Schematron, using SPARQL instead of XPath
16:35:38 [Arnaud]
ack hsolbri
16:35:38 [Zakim]
hsolbri, you wanted to say proposed requirement - invariants (and rules?) expressible in RDF
16:36:32 [arthur]
Harold: SPARQL not using RDF (unlike SPIN) - we should require an RDF representation
16:36:36 [evrensirin]
q+ about rdf syntax for constraints
16:36:49 [Arnaud]
ack evren
16:36:53 [guoqian]
hsolbri:SPARQL should be able to be defined in RDF with meta data
16:37:00 [ericP]
q+ to ask if the expressivity of SPIN in RDF is of opperational valye
16:37:18 [arthur]
Evren: SPIN is going to allow a literal string of SPARQL
16:37:22 [sandro]
q?
16:37:30 [arthur]
Harold: don't want to parse another grammar
16:37:50 [arthur]
Evren: SPIN has both - RDF based and literal SPARQL string
16:38:45 [Arnaud]
ack eric
16:38:45 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to ask if the expressivity of SPIN in RDF is of opperational valye
16:39:33 [arthur]
Evren: what is the value of the RDF representation of SPARQL in SPIN? Is this just for query governance?
16:40:24 [DavidBooth]
q+ to say I think a main reason for the RDF-based SPIN syntax is the ability to change namespaces in the query
16:40:24 [arthur]
Harold: RDF is useful for impact analysis
16:40:34 [Arnaud]
ack david
16:40:34 [Zakim]
DavidBooth, you wanted to say I think a main reason for the RDF-based SPIN syntax is the ability to change namespaces in the query
16:40:50 [SteveS]
q+ validation results
16:41:02 [Arnaud]
ack steve
16:41:11 [Arnaud]
q=
16:41:27 [Arnaud]
queue=
16:41:30 [hsolbri]
q+
16:41:33 [arthur]
Steve: need to also see why validation fails
16:41:37 [Arnaud]
ack hsolbri
16:42:32 [DavidBooth]
q+ to say one thing I particularly like about SPIN CONSTRUCT rules is the ability to attach arbitrary data to a validation error
16:42:38 [guoqian]
hsolbri: meta-repository may be an argument for RDF validation
16:42:41 [Arnaud]
ack david
16:42:41 [Zakim]
DavidBooth, you wanted to say one thing I particularly like about SPIN CONSTRUCT rules is the ability to attach arbitrary data to a validation error
16:42:45 [arthur]
Harold: metadata merging is important so RDF is useful in that use case
16:43:07 [arthur]
David" SPIN CONSTRUCT rules allow attachment of other data
16:43:37 [SteveS]
I'd like the validation results to not only provide a useful message that a tool could possibly recover, but also the context such as the triples causing problem and rules that cause it (some guidance on how to become validate would be helpful)
16:44:00 [arthur]
Arnaud: need to discuss what is affordable
16:44:34 [arthur]
Arnaud: need to prioritize what we can do in a 2-year period
16:44:57 [dbs]
Arnaud: experience shows that the experience of developing standards in charter groups can be brutal [laughs]
16:45:12 [arthur]
End
16:45:14 [Zakim]
- +1.510.435.aacc
16:45:16 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
16:45:26 [arthur]
Break for lunch courtesy of W3C
16:45:51 [Zakim]
-dbs
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17:04:44 [arthur]
check out this w3c spec that contains Z notation http://www.w3.org/TR/wsdl20/wsdl20-z.html
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17:25:27 [guoqian]
guoqian: my presentation slides: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/images/d/d6/RDF-Validation-Workshop-GJiang-v1.0.pdf
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17:57:32 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Topic: Guoquin Jian presentation - Mayo Clinic
17:58:21 [Ashok_Malhotra]
s/Jian/Jiang/
17:58:40 [Arnaud]
zakim, who's on the phone?
17:58:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Workshop_room
18:02:24 [Zakim]
+ +1.510.435.aadd
18:02:38 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 1: Secondary Use of EHR Data
18:03:13 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 2: Dimensions of data quality and quality assessment
18:03:29 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 3: Use of Data Standards
18:04:32 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 4: Clinical Info Modelling Initiave
18:04:50 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 5: CIMI Ideas
18:05:34 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 6: Sdantardized clinical info models for secondary use
18:06:26 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 7: Clinical Element Models: -- Authored in CDL distributed as XML Schema
18:06:41 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 8: Architecture
18:07:48 [hsolbri]
Clinical Element Models converted to XML Schema, Instance data to XML then Schema to OWL and instance to RDF
18:08:37 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 9: Screen shot - Clinical Admin Browser. Publicly available
18:09:27 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 10: CEMs from XML to OWL
18:09:50 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 11: Check constraints and validate
18:10:05 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... Use SPARQL
18:10:25 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Eric: Is SPIN generated fron Schema
18:10:41 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Jiang: No, by hand ... perhaps in future'
18:11:13 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 12: Another SPARQL example
18:11:45 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 13: Standardized Semantic Web Services
18:12:35 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 14: Background on CIMI model
18:12:53 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 15: Reference Model picture
18:13:24 [arthur]
there is a SPARQL error on chart 16
18:13:34 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 16: Data values
18:14:03 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 17: Case Studies
18:15:02 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 18: Mindmap View
18:15:59 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 19: RDF Rendering of Domain Template
18:16:43 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... usinf SPIN in an RDF Form
18:16:55 [Ashok_Malhotra]
s/usinf/using/
18:17:28 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 20: Discussion Points
18:17:50 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... RDF Validation against CIMI Models
18:18:14 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... Challenging issues (data types, value set binding)
18:18:38 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... XML Semantics Resuse Technology
18:19:33 [Ashok_Malhotra]
scribenick: Ashok_Malhotra
18:19:41 [arthur]
i don't undertand XSD->OWL
18:19:56 [arthur]
XSD = constraints, OWL = Inference
18:21:16 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Slide 21: Picure showing Technologies and their Relationships
18:21:42 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Overlay: BRIDGing Technology
18:22:11 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Arthur: How can you translate XML Schema to OWL or UML to OWL?
18:23:23 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Eric explains ... they are different but can be used in similar ways
18:24:28 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Discussion on translation between UML and OWL, XML and OWL
18:25:49 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... constraints and reasoning are just different
18:26:29 [Arnaud]
zakim, who's on the phone?
18:26:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Workshop_room, +1.510.435.aadd
18:27:39 [kcoyle]
aadd is kcoyle
18:28:26 [labra]
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18:28:29 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Q&A
18:28:49 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Discussion of constraint checking vs. inference
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18:30:30 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Arnaud: Are you doing this mapping on Slide 10 or are you thinking of doing this?
18:31:24 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... asks about validation at different levels
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18:34:44 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Harold: This is a vision ...
18:38:10 [Ashok_Malhotra]
MIF is an extension of UML with a higher degree of expressivity
18:38:37 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Harold: Effort to translate MIF to OWL
18:38:54 [ssimister]
My slides are online here: http://rdf-validation.appspot.com
18:41:12 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Topic: Presentation by Shawn Simister, Google
18:41:35 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... RDF Validation at Google
18:42:25 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... we are triplifying the Web
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18:44:50 [Ashok_Malhotra]
SS: What approaches did we consider?
18:45:14 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... Schematron, SchemaRama
18:45:46 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... SPIN constraints
18:46:54 [sandro]
ss: nice to be able to have metadata on constraints, like for severity of violations
18:47:13 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... OWL Integrity Constraints
18:47:30 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... Our Solution ... path-based constraints
18:53:17 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... What did we learn
18:53:42 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... Most constraints are property paths. SPARQL handles the rest
18:55:18 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... constraints describes the app, not the world it inhabits
18:55:32 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... Constraints need to be app specific
18:56:56 [TallTed]
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18:57:05 [sandro]
q+ to ask about required-vs-optional property paths
18:57:28 [sandro]
arnaud: how do the constraints get created? do you do it, does the developer?
18:57:58 [sandro]
ss: some of each. gmail team had their own internal software with their internal test cases, so it as easy to get them to generate stuff for us.
18:58:08 [guoqian]
-- schema.org
19:00:01 [sandro]
sandro: surely an app has one set of property paths for what's needed to use the data at all, and another that it might be able to use.
19:01:34 [sandro]
ss: we only talk about the required stuff. for one thing, we're trying to not discourage people from providing information we don't happen to use yet.
19:01:55 [sandro]
sandro: It would be nice, probably, to still tell folks what data you can use if provided.
19:02:00 [sandro]
ss: good idea.
19:06:29 [Ashok_Malhotra]
DBooth: Are the paths RDF property paths?
19:06:46 [Ashok_Malhotra]
SS: No they are not ... very similar
19:07:40 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Arthur: Why do you split into context and constraints when you can use a single SPARQL query?
19:07:54 [Ashok_Malhotra]
SS: The design came from Schematron
19:08:07 [mgh]
Seems like a constrained subset of the property paths that can be used in SPARQL 1.1 - not supporting *, + notation
19:10:14 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Question about the parser
19:11:10 [Ashok_Malhotra]
SS: Superset of RDF ...
19:11:42 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... not public yet
19:14:07 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Topic: Tim Cole - Using SPARQL to validate Open Annotation RDF Graphs
19:14:43 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Context: W3C Open Annotation CG
19:15:06 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... has 102 members
19:16:19 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... narrow and easy usecase for RDF
19:17:28 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Tim describes the OA data model
19:19:45 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... describes the OA Ontology
19:20:58 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... LoreStore Annotation Repository
19:21:21 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... store, search, query, display and validate annotations
19:23:47 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... approach
19:29:23 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Bob Morros on FilteredPush RDF Validation
19:29:51 [Ashok_Malhotra]
s/Morros/Morris/
19:35:34 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... rules are groups into RuleSets. All rules in a set must be valid
19:36:03 [Ashok_Malhotra]
s/groups/grouped/
19:39:01 [Ashok_Malhotra]
... the OAD namespace has some extensions to the OA namespace
19:40:36 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Q&A
19:41:01 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Tim: I was happy that most of these topics came up in the more complex cases as well
19:48:00 [Ashok_Malhotra]
COFEE BREAK for 15 Minutes
19:50:06 [Zakim]
- +1.510.435.aadd
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20:14:24 [ericP]
-> http://piratepad.net/E255z6M73S pirate pad
20:15:45 [roger]
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20:16:26 [Ashok_Malhotra]
REQUIREMENTS using PiratePad ... link above
20:16:42 [arthur]
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20:16:49 [roger]
can you re-send link please Ashok ?
20:18:35 [Ashok_Malhotra]
http://piratepad.net/E255z6M73S pirate pad
20:19:20 [sandro]
(pad is full now)
20:20:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.510.435.aaee
20:20:39 [Zakim]
-Workshop_room
20:20:40 [Zakim]
+Workshop_room
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20:21:54 [kcoyle]
Zakim, aaee is kcoyle
20:21:54 [Zakim]
+kcoyle; got it
20:52:48 [Zakim]
-kcoyle
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-Workshop_room
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SW_(RDFVal)8:30AM has ended
21:49:22 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.617.715.aaaa, dbs, DaveReynolds, aisaac, +1.510.435.aabb, Workshop_room, +1.510.435.aacc, +1.510.435.aadd, +1.510.435.aaee, kcoyle
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