16:49:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:49:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-irc
16:49:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:49:14 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
16:49:16 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:49:16 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
16:49:17 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:49:17 <trackbot> Date: 05 September 2013
16:49:23 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
16:52:02 <allanj> regrets: Kim
16:52:26 <allanj> agenda+ F2F Recap
16:52:28 <allanj> agenda+ Action Item Review
16:52:29 <allanj> agenda+ Glossary Review - Reminder to read the Glossary before the meeting
16:52:31 <allanj> agenda+  Any new proposals
16:54:40 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ua
16:58:52 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:58:59 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
16:59:12 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:00:53 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
17:01:03 <Zakim> +Greg_Lowney
17:01:59 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
17:02:33 <kford> kford has joined #ua
17:02:42 <Jan> zakim, code?
17:02:42 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:03:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:03:50 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
17:03:53 <Jan> zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:03:53 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
17:04:19 <allanj> regrets: -Kim
17:04:38 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
17:04:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
17:04:45 <KimPatch> KimPatch has joined #ua
17:05:07 <jeanne> regrets- kim
17:05:16 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html jeanne
17:05:41 <jeanne> regrets- -kim
17:05:51 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html jeanne
17:06:13 <jeanne> Chair: Jim Kelly
17:06:39 <allanj> zakim, agenda?
17:06:39 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:06:40 <Zakim> 1. F2F Recap [from allanj]
17:06:40 <Zakim> 2. Action Item Review [from allanj]
17:06:40 <Zakim> 3. Glossary Review - Reminder to read the Glossary before the meeting [from allanj]
17:06:40 <Zakim> 4. Any new proposals [from allanj]
17:07:07 <allanj> scribe: allanj
17:07:18 <allanj> zakim, open item 1
17:07:18 <Zakim> agendum 1. "F2F Recap" taken up [from allanj]
17:07:53 <allanj> we rock, got lots done
17:09:17 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:09:28 <allanj> js: need clean/done document by 9/12 for publishing
17:09:54 <allanj> Resolution: No Changes after Sept 12.
17:10:32 <allanj> zakim, [Microsoft] is really kford
17:10:32 <Zakim> +kford; got it
17:10:50 <Jan> zakim, who's making noise?
17:11:00 <Zakim> Jan, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
17:11:31 <Zakim> + +1.609.734.aaaa
17:11:35 <jeanne> zakim, who is making noise?
17:11:49 <Zakim> jeanne, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: kford (42%), Jim_Allan (26%), Jeanne (52%), Kim_Patch (17%)
17:12:08 <allanj> js: reports from folks who did things
17:12:56 <allanj> kp: reworked the stems for SC
17:13:31 <allanj> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0056.html
17:14:28 <Eric> Eric has joined #ua
17:15:00 <allanj> kp: spreadsheet http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/att-0054/SC_Stems_proposed_changes_from_20130829.xlsx
17:16:17 <allanj_> allanj_ has joined #ua
17:16:35 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
17:16:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
17:16:41 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:17:05 <Zakim> -kford
17:17:08 <allanj> jr: +1 to kim, we are on the same page
17:17:29 <allanj> discussion of Provide focus choise.
17:17:37 <allanj> s/choise/choice
17:17:38 <kford_> kford_ has joined #ua
17:17:47 <allanj> gl: too broad
17:18:04 <allanj> js: doesn't match intent of SC
17:18:12 <allanj> related to 1.8
17:18:34 <allanj> s/1.8/1.8.10
17:20:13 <allanj> jr: issue with global volume
17:20:36 <allanj> these changes are not normative we can smith during last call
17:21:00 <allanj> jr: global volume is 1.5.1
17:22:53 <allanj> ja: take discussion to the list.
17:23:35 <allanj> Resolution: Accept proposal for Stem reworking, exceptions noted. discussion on list
17:24:10 <kford> Here is a review of P1. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0057.html
17:25:51 <allanj> kf: issue with 1.1.3 note
17:26:02 <allanj> Note: At level A, the user agent can specify that an alternative content or placeholder replace the non-text content. At level AA success criterion 1.1.3 requires that the user can specify one format or placeholder to be used. At level AAA success criterion 1.1.5 requires that the user can specify a cascade order of types of alternative content to be used.
17:26:25 <allanj> jr: would be fine if we dropped this note, just meta information
17:26:38 <allanj> js: might go in resources
17:26:58 <allanj> jr: or in intent
17:27:29 <allanj> Resolution: remove note in 1.1.3
17:28:14 <allanj> kf: 1.2.1 issues
17:28:27 <allanj> jr: there is an open action from f2f to reword
17:29:03 <allanj> kf: screenreaders do what we want. if link image they show file name, don't discourage that.
17:29:49 <jeanne> Master document for today's meeting <- http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130905/MasterUAAG20130905.html
17:29:59 <allanj> jr: right, AT does right thing, don't want authoring tools etc doing the wrong thing.
17:30:56 <allanj> gl: cites mobile and vision issues for turning off images, if no alt, user has no idea about where link goes...
17:31:41 <allanj> ja: cites animated gif Link with no alt, browser should do something to give info to user with no AT
17:32:21 <allanj> kf: 1.9 source view -- many sources, not clear
17:32:37 <allanj> ... page source is different from rendered source
17:33:32 <allanj> ... generally it is the rendered source that is most important
17:34:03 <allanj> js: put in intent. messing with the SC will take lots of time.
17:34:13 <allanj> ja: +1 to intent
17:36:04 <allanj> generated source vs original source
17:36:24 <allanj> gl: inspecting tools give you generated source
17:38:37 <jeanne> I'm ok with clarifying it as a note
17:39:27 <allanj> developers toolbar http://chrispederick.com/work/web-developer/firefox/ (dom source and page source
17:41:13 <allanj> action: greg to reword 1.9.2 for both sources
17:41:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-884 - Reword 1.9.2 for both sources [on Greg Lowney - due 2013-09-12].
17:41:53 <allanj> zakim, close item 1
17:41:53 <Zakim> agendum 1, F2F Recap, closed
17:41:54 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:41:54 <Zakim> 2. Action Item Review [from allanj]
17:42:06 <allanj> zakim, open item 2
17:42:06 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Action Item Review" taken up [from allanj]
17:42:42 <allanj> js: those open in tracker
17:43:20 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
17:47:13 <jeanne> action-827 defintion of levels - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130905/MasterUAAG20130905.html#intro-conf-levels
17:50:55 <jeanne> closed action-831
17:51:32 <jeanne> action: jeanne to move Appendix E to wiki page
17:51:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-885 - Move appendix e to wiki page [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-12].
17:52:09 <allanj> close action-836
17:52:09 <trackbot> Closed action-836.
17:56:04 <allanj> zakim, agenda?
17:56:05 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
17:56:05 <Zakim> 2. Action Item Review [from allanj]
17:56:05 <Zakim> 3. Glossary Review - Reminder to read the Glossary before the meeting [from allanj]
17:56:05 <Zakim> 4. Any new proposals [from allanj]
17:56:22 <jeanne> close action-856
17:56:22 <trackbot> Closed action-856.
17:57:01 <jeanne> close action-870
17:57:01 <trackbot> Closed action-870.
17:57:36 <jeanne> close action-855
17:57:36 <trackbot> Closed action-855.
17:58:04 <allanj> zakim, close item 2
17:58:04 <Zakim> agendum 2, Action Item Review, closed
17:58:05 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:58:05 <Zakim> 3. Glossary Review - Reminder to read the Glossary before the meeting [from allanj]
17:58:14 <allanj> zakim, open item 3
17:58:14 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Glossary Review - Reminder to read the Glossary before the meeting" taken up [from allanj]
17:58:18 <jeanne> close action-880
17:58:18 <trackbot> Closed action-880.
17:58:51 <Jan> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130905/MasterUAAG20130905.html#glossary
17:59:08 <allanj> eh: review of glossary http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0059.html
17:59:13 <allanj> ... most editorial
17:59:58 <allanj> kp: did a quick review looks ok
18:00:51 <allanj> proposal:
18:01:03 <allanj> text alternatives: Text that is either (a) programmatically associated with non-text content or (b) referred to by such text. Sometimes both kinds of text alternatives occur together. For example, an image of a chart might have two text alternatives – one of each kind: (a) a short text description that is programmatically associated with the chart (e.g., alt text) and (b) a description in...
18:01:05 <allanj> ...the paragraph that is referred to by the short text description.”
18:02:43 <Jan> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#alt-time-based-mediadef
18:02:55 <allanj> eh: def of alternatives for time based media issue
18:03:06 <allanj> jr: took def from ATAG
18:03:36 <Jan> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#captionsdef
18:04:38 <allanj> jr: we define alternatives for time based media more broadly than WCAG.
18:04:48 <Jan> http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/#def-Alternative-Content
18:05:44 <allanj> eh: ok with ATAG def. withdraw concern that it doesn't match WCAG
18:06:48 <allanj> s/text alternatives:/text alternatives for non-text content:
18:07:49 <allanj> js: like proposal
18:08:14 <allanj> jr: only programmatic text is machine readable
18:08:43 <allanj> gl: started a proposal for this definition. in progress.
18:09:28 <allanj> ... either associated directly (alt, longdesc) or indirectly (labelledby, describedby)
18:09:51 <allanj> eh: may have misunderstood the intent
18:10:32 <allanj> ... wasn't clear that both direct and indirect are programmatically available
18:10:34 <Jan> From WCAG: text alternative Text that is programmatically associated with non-text content or referred to from text that is programmatically associated with non-text content. Programmatically associated text is text whose location can be programmatically determined from the non-text content. Example: An image of a chart is described in text in the paragraph after the chart. The short text...
18:10:36 <Jan> ...alternative for the chart indicates that a description follows. Note: Refer to Understanding Text Alternatives for more information.
18:11:44 <allanj> jr: WCAG does not assume machine readability, UAAG does (recognized)
18:12:00 <allanj> eh: needs to be clearer.
18:12:06 <Jan> Importantly, from the perspective of authoring tools, alternative content may or may not be:
18:12:07 <Jan>     #def-Associated-Alternative-Contentprogrammatically associated: Alternative content whose location and purpose can be programmatically determined from the original content for which it is serving as an alternative. For example, a paragraph might serve as a text alternative for an image, but it is only programmatically associated if this relationship is properly encoded (e.g., by...
18:12:09 <Jan> ..."aria-labeledby").
18:13:21 <allanj> jr: this might make it more clear if we use above language (change referent to user agent)
18:14:55 <allanj> jr: this term must be things that are machine readable (programatically associated)
18:15:46 <Jan> http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/#def-Alternative-Content
18:16:24 <allanj> Importantly, from the perspective of user agents, alternative content may or may not be programmatically associated: Alternative content whose location and purpose can be programmatically determined from the original content for which it is serving as an alternative. For example, a paragraph might serve as a text alternative for an image, but it is only programmatically associated if this...
18:16:26 <allanj> ...relationship is properly encoded (e.g., by."aria-describedby")
18:18:02 <Jan> text alternatives for non-text content: Text that is programmatically associated with non-text content. For example, an image of a chart might have two text alternatives: a description in the paragraph after the chart and a short text alternative for the chart indicating in words that a description follows.
18:18:54 <allanj> ja: +1 to new def
18:19:10 <allanj> gl: issues
18:20:18 <allanj> ... a description in para after chart...is not an alternative unless tagged.
18:20:39 <allanj> jr: will add aria-describedby
18:21:02 <Jan> text alternatives for non-text content: Text that is programmatically associated with non-text content....+ Greg's text.
18:22:12 <Greg> alternative content: this should include a category for text alternatives for text content, such as is provided by HTML's ABBR element.(ABBR is an example in Appendix E.)
18:22:38 <allanj> gl: definition is too narrow. doesn't cover <abbr title=foo>
18:22:51 <Greg> "For example, an image of a chart might have two text alternatives: a description in the paragraph after the chart, as long as the two are linked by a method such as ARIA describedby, or..."
18:23:09 <allanj> kp: need something different for examples or sub bulleted items in the definitons
18:24:10 <allanj> ... bullets confusing (separating sub def from examples)
18:24:50 <allanj> kp: seems to be an extra level of bullets in the implementing document, would make it easier to read
18:25:06 <allanj> s/definitons/defintions
18:25:24 <Jan> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130905/MasterUAAG20130905.html
18:25:31 <allanj> s/defintions/definitions
18:27:36 <allanj> action: allanj to rewrite definition of alternative content - include bullet for <abbr title=foo>, change sentence for text-alternatives for non-text content
18:27:36 <trackbot> Error finding 'allanj'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/users>.
18:27:54 <allanj> action: jallan to rewrite definition of alternative content - include bullet for <abbr title=foo>, change sentence for text-alternatives for non-text content
18:27:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-886 - Rewrite definition of alternative content - include bullet for <abbr title=foo>, change sentence for text-alternatives for non-text content [on Jim Allan - due 2013-09-12].
18:29:27 <allanj> alternative for text content
18:29:55 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:29:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:31:23 <Zakim> -Kim_Patch
18:31:31 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:31:44 <Zakim> -Jeanne
18:31:46 <Zakim> - +1.609.734.aaaa
18:31:48 <Zakim> -Greg_Lowney
18:32:37 <Zakim> -Jan
18:32:39 <Zakim> -Jim_Allan
18:32:39 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:32:39 <Zakim> Attendees were Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, Jan, kford, +1.609.734.aaaa, [Microsoft]
18:38:43 <allanj> zakim, please part
18:38:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
18:38:48 <allanj> rrsagent make minutes
18:38:55 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:38:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:39:01 <allanj> rrsagent, please part
18:39:01 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-actions.rdf :
18:39:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: greg to reword 1.9.2 for both sources [1]
18:39:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-irc#T17-41-13
18:39:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jeanne to move Appendix E to wiki page [2]
18:39:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-irc#T17-51-32
18:39:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: allanj to rewrite definition of alternative content - include bullet for <abbr title=foo>, change sentence for text-alternatives for non-text content [3]
18:39:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-irc#T18-27-36
18:39:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jallan to rewrite definition of alternative content - include bullet for <abbr title=foo>, change sentence for text-alternatives for non-text content [4]
18:39:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-irc#T18-27-54