13:54:01 RRSAgent has joined #tt 13:54:01 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-tt-irc 13:54:03 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:54:03 Zakim has joined #tt 13:54:05 Zakim, this will be TTML 13:54:05 ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes 13:54:06 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 13:54:06 Date: 05 September 2013 13:59:01 pal has joined #tt 13:59:22 SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started 13:59:29 +??P7 13:59:36 zakim, ??p7 is me 13:59:36 +glenn; got it 13:59:37 +pal 13:59:50 +??P9 13:59:53 zakim, ??P9 is me 13:59:53 +nigel; got it 14:00:30 tmichel has joined #tt 14:01:10 + +1.858.882.aaaa 14:01:24 zakim, aaaa is mike 14:01:24 +mike; got it 14:01:50 chair: glenn 14:02:13 scribeNick: nigel 14:02:34 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/agenda 14:03:31 http://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac 14:04:14 action-190 14:04:14 action-190 -- Thierry Michel to Will create a wiki for the face-to-face meeting -- due 2013-08-15 -- OPEN 14:04:14 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/190 14:04:18 close action-190 14:04:18 Closed action-190. 14:04:38 actino-184 14:04:41 action-184 14:04:41 action-184 -- Thierry Michel to Check with Angel if Monday/Friday is ok for TPAC 2013 -- due 2013-08-01 -- OPEN 14:04:41 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/184 14:04:57 +??P19 14:05:06 zakim, ???P19 is me 14:05:06 sorry, tmichel, I do not recognize a party named '???P19' 14:05:22 plh has joined #tt 14:05:35 zakim, ??P19 is tmichel 14:05:35 +tmichel; got it 14:05:36 +Plh 14:05:48 close action-184 14:05:48 Closed action-184. 14:07:48 topic: face to face at TPAC 14:08:16 glenn: profiles is likely to be a popular topic for discussion. 14:09:10 TTwG is registered for monday and Friday at TPAC 14:09:12 http://www.w3.org/2013/11/TPAC/#GroupSchedule 14:09:21 glenn: folk should add items for discussion onto that subpage of the wiki for consideration by sean on his return 14:09:56 mijordan has joined #tt 14:09:58 mike: add IANA registration to discussion topics 14:10:18 action-192 14:10:18 action-192 -- Mike Dolan to Work with phillipe to deal with IANA submission -- due 2013-08-29 -- OPEN 14:10:18 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/192 14:10:59 plh: will seek registration today or tomorrow and proceed with this action 14:11:04 +[Adobe] 14:11:35 glenn: important to use the content of the editorial draft for resubmission. 14:11:40 plh: will use that. 14:13:13 action-88 14:13:13 action-88 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Make sure the TTML media type is properly registered for Issue-175. -- due 2013-07-31 -- OPEN 14:13:13 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/88 14:13:37 glenn: can close when registration process is finished. 14:13:43 glenn: also close action 192 when that happens 14:13:55 close action-192 14:13:55 Closed action-192. 14:14:24 action-194 14:14:24 action-194 -- Glenn Adams to Move "120% of" from current ed text in 8.2.12 into informative note as recommendation to presentation processor implementers -- due 2013-09-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:14:24 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/194 14:15:14 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/default/ttml1/spec/ttml1.html#style-attribute-lineHeight 14:16:45 glenn: informative note in TTML1 is normative in draft for TTML2 14:17:18 glenn: does this meet nigel's concern? 14:17:36 nigel: yes, you could also add that it is intended to be normative in TTML2, but not necessary. 14:17:48 mike: agree no need to add the extra note. 14:17:51 close action-194 14:17:51 Closed action-194. 14:17:59 action-197 14:17:59 action-197 -- Glenn Adams to Check whether issue-173 has already been dealt with -- due 2013-09-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:17:59 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/197 14:18:11 iissue-173 14:18:15 issue-173 14:18:15 issue-173 -- presentation semantics of control characters and other unmapped characters -- pending review 14:18:15 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/173 14:18:48 glenn: reviewed issue-173 and believes no action needed to edit spec now. marked as pending review. 14:19:15 close issue-173 14:19:15 Closed issue-173. 14:19:29 close action-197 14:19:29 Closed action-197. 14:20:04 action-195 14:20:04 action-195 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Proposing resolution to multiple choices for minimum euclidean distance -- due 2013-09-05 -- OPEN 14:20:04 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/195 14:21:11 nigel: do we need an absolute value reference rather than the term 'highest'? 14:21:20 pal: yes we can improve that sentence 14:21:26 glenn: i.e. round up not down? 14:21:28 pal: yes 14:22:38 glenn: this raises the issue of tracker not generating notifications on changes to actions or issues. 14:23:13 plh: unfortunately there is no such feature. For new actions an email is sent, but not when the status changes. Will check re new comments. 14:23:50 glenn: also requested this feature on the AC list recently. In the meantime we'll have to manually review actions and issues. 14:24:20 plh: I understand the issue. I hope sysreq knows about this. I will check this is on the tracker page list. 14:24:25 s/plh/thierry/ 14:24:27 s/plh/thierry/ 14:25:07 action thierry to check if feature request for tracker notifications on action/issue new comment or status change has been added to requested feature list 14:25:07 Created ACTION-198 - Check if feature request for tracker notifications on action/issue new comment or status change has been added to requested feature list [on Thierry Michel - due 2013-09-12]. 14:26:47 glenn: phillipe, we're close to packaging TTML1 with editorial changes since the PER so you can start the publishing process. 14:27:02 glenn: guidance on that, e.g. a target date, would be useful. 14:28:29 plh: need to close the loop with IANA and then get director's approval for publishing the recommendation. Any changes since the end of the last review? 14:28:30 pal_ has joined #tt 14:28:40 glenn: yes, a variety of editorial changes, documented here: 14:29:50 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/default/ttml1/spec/ttml1-changes.html 14:30:45 glenn: this lists changes since the PER was published, which all basically resolve comments made on PER or in working group review. 14:31:29 action-196 14:31:29 action-196 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Check proposed resolution to issue-159 in relationship to issue-231 and issue-229 -- due 2013-09-05 -- OPEN 14:31:30 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/196 14:32:02 issue-231 14:32:02 issue-231 -- Individual character rotation -- open 14:32:02 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/231 14:32:24 pal: it looks like the proposed resolution to issue-159 solves issue-231 as well 14:33:18 glenn: was the request intended to support arbitrary angles or just 90 degrees either way? 14:33:24 pal: 90 degrees only. 14:34:21 glenn: the values in issue-159 were mixed sideways and upright where sideways could be clockwise or anti-clockwise depending on the block progression in vertical mode 14:35:05 ... and the writing mode. There are use cases for both directions, but they are effectively controlled by the writing mode. 14:35:42 ... CSS3 defines two additional modes: sideways-left and sideways-right which allow the direction to be set independently of the writing mode. 14:36:28 pal: I think this matches the SMPTE requirement, i.e. individual rotation of each character left or right by 90 degrees. 14:37:06 glenn: the other issue is rotation around the centre of the glyph. In general rotation is around the origin of the glyph rather than the centre. 14:37:24 glenn: this depends also on whether the baseline is horizontal or vertical. 14:38:00 pal: 'around its centre' really means that each glyph should be rotated individually so we need not worry about that. 14:38:18 issue-159 14:38:18 issue-159 -- Text orientation in I18n script processing -- pending review 14:38:18 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/159 14:38:26 issue-159: glenn to add sidewaysLeft and sidewaysRight values 14:38:26 Notes added to issue-159 Text orientation in I18n script processing. 14:38:51 issue-159: see also issue-231 14:38:51 Notes added to issue-159 Text orientation in I18n script processing. 14:39:20 pal: need to wait for Sean to confirm if this resolves issue-159 14:40:17 pal: issue-229 seems different from issue-231 and issue-159. It is instead of glyph rotation concerned with changing the progression direction. 14:40:32 issue-229: glenn thinks this isn't related to issue-159, so sean needs to elaborate if he thinks otherwise 14:40:32 Notes added to issue-229 Mixed vertical-horizontal progression direction. 14:40:38 ... so the resolution to issue-159 will not resolve issue-229 14:41:06 close action-196 14:41:06 Closed action-196. 14:41:23 I need to drop for this week. Hear everyone next week. 14:41:31 -mike 14:42:56 issue-170 14:42:56 issue-170 -- Section 5.2 para 8 is vague regarding optionality of specifying profile in case where profile is negotiated/determined by 'document interchange process' -- pending review 14:42:56 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/170 14:43:00 action-170 14:43:00 action-170 -- Glenn Adams to Create issue to remove "(in pixels)" from new definition of computed cell size -- due 2013-07-04 -- CLOSED 14:43:00 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/170 14:44:31 close issue-170 14:44:31 Closed issue-170. 14:44:48 issue-173 14:44:48 issue-173 -- presentation semantics of control characters and other unmapped characters -- closed 14:44:48 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/173 14:45:21 issue-176 14:45:21 issue-176 -- Adding support for extent and origin attributes on block elements -- pending review 14:45:21 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/176 14:47:55 glenn: the problem with putting origin and extent directly on p or div could be misinterpreted as meaning the size of the allocation rectangle or the content rectangle to apply 14:48:26 glenn: this is the case if for example in CSS you specify a width for a block element then it is interpreted as a declaration of how much allocation area to assign to the block and not 14:48:37 ... a declaration of an absolutely positioned region in which to put the block. 14:49:34 glenn: my proposal, subject to Sean's review, is to add an inline region, like an inline animation element, as a child of a block element. 14:49:54 ... This is a shorthand for defining the region in the header and referring to it via IDs. 14:50:29 glenn: this is one for the agenda in the f2f meeting. Want to keep as pending review for the time being. 14:51:12 ... in the TTML2 editorial draft, under the terminology section 2.2 I have added new definitions for inline region and out of line region, also incidentally inline and out of line animation, 14:52:04 ... I also modified the syntax for the div and p elements in 7.1.4 and 7.1.5 to add to its content models an optional layout class immediately after the animation class. 14:53:03 ... Under the section 9.3 on layout semantics I have pencilled in a new subsection called Inline Regions 9.3.2 which needs to be filled in. 14:53:19 ... Minor changes are likely in 9.3.3 as a consequence. 14:53:44 ... This technique will minimise the changes to the semantics of the parent synchronic document construction and layout processing. 14:54:19 ... The original idea came from a desire to serialise content in a way that doesn't require pre-defining all of the regions up-front and instead allow them to be defined coincident with the block element 14:56:18 issue-176: nigel asks about whether region needs full specification or can be inherited 14:56:18 Notes added to issue-176 Adding support for extent and origin attributes on block elements. 14:57:55 glenn: we could specify on the root or layout element the styles etc to inherit in inline or out of line regions 15:00:57 action: glenn to create new issue about need for region elements to obtain inherited styles, possibly from layout or tt element 15:00:58 Created ACTION-199 - Create new issue about need for region elements to obtain inherited styles, possibly from layout or tt element [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-09-12]. 15:01:20 issue-178 15:01:20 issue-178 -- initial values and style set calculations are unclear, especially for transformable attributes -- pending review 15:01:21 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/178 15:02:08 issue-183 15:02:08 issue-183 -- semantics of using profile in a document -- pending review 15:02:08 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/183 15:02:39 issue-193 15:02:39 issue-193 -- Address SMPTE Questions for Region, Border, etc. related to character edge attributes -- pending review 15:02:39 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/193 15:03:56 issue-203 15:03:56 issue-203 -- Add ttp:version to allow author to indicate which version of TTML content was created for. -- pending review 15:03:56 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/203 15:04:35 glenn: this now implemented in TTML2 draft 15:04:42 pal: is the namespace going to change for TTML2? 15:05:02 glenn: there's no plan to change it. The namespace is defined as being extensible under control of the TTWG. 15:05:17 pal: so this would be a way to tell if a TTML document conforms to TTML1 or TTML2? 15:06:30 glenn: reads draft text. 15:08:01 glenn: this is intended to be separate from profile conformance and definition. It should have no mandatory normative role in processing. 15:09:14 nigel: might this be used for behaviour changes in processors that don't have defined profiles? 15:10:04 glenn: there are two questions there: firstly profile mechanisms and secondly the definition of new profile features to cover changes in behaviour 15:11:21 ... For the time being we can't concretely answer this - we may in the end take it out as being unnecessary or add more semantics that trigger off its value. For future discussion. 15:12:09 glenn: It would be useful to add this to the discussion list for the TPAC meeting. 15:12:45 action: glenn to add ttp:version to items for possible F2F agenda 15:12:45 Created ACTION-200 - Add ttp:version to items for possible f2f agenda [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-09-12]. 15:12:53 pal: we have three mechanisms now: namespace, content profile and version. It would be good to understand the interplay between those three. 15:14:26 glenn: we can not redefine existing profile labels; we can only add new profiles. Similarly with features. 15:15:52 pal: will the TTML2 profiles unambiguously define the version used? 15:16:21 glenn: no - I could create a TTML2 version document that requires dfxp-full or dfxp-presentation so they're orthogonal concepts 15:16:58 pal: so ttp:version is completely informative because the processor only needs to know which normative provisions were used. 15:17:26 ... unless we're really clear people will come up with crazy ways to process/reject documents using faulty logic 15:18:03 glenn: we don't know yet if we will not define normative semantics around the use of a version defined this way. For example we may change basic conformance processing changes 15:18:35 ... we are also making changes about concrete syntax - in version 1 there were recommendations that will be normative in v2. Similarly with time expressions. 15:19:23 ... I can't predict where we'll end up. In SVG it seems to be useful. Similarly in XML headers, and by analogy it could be useful here. 15:20:13 nigel: there's one use case here that's clear - processors will need to know the TTML version to understand the profile mechanism if we change that. 15:20:40 pal: we can already use the profile mechanism. 15:21:05 glenn: we're thinking about declaring content profile independently of what's required by a processor. You could create a TTML2 document that declares conformance with a TTML1 profile and use 15:21:16 ... a TTML1 profile for declaring what support a processor requires. 15:21:36 pal: That's still unambiguous without needing version. 15:21:59 glenn: I don't expect to mandate that a TTML2 document declares its conformance with a particular profile 15:23:20 glenn: If it's pure metadata we can consider removing it. I suggest you submit an issue for this - could be to change it to ttm:version instead of ttp:version. 15:23:43 glenn: I suggest we need to think more about this. 15:23:55 pal: I will file an issue. 15:26:02 pal: we need to specify very clearly how we communicate semantics and version conformance. 15:27:26 close issue-203 15:27:26 Closed issue-203. 15:27:35 issue-204 15:27:35 issue-204 -- TTML.next should probably be 2.0, not 1.1 -- pending review 15:27:35 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/204 15:27:45 close issue-204 15:27:45 Closed issue-204. 15:27:50 issue-208 15:27:50 issue-208 -- Define behavior for unsupported colors. -- pending review 15:27:50 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/208 15:30:43 I am sorry I must leave to an appointement ... 15:30:57 Bye. 15:31:09 -tmichel 15:31:46 nigel: unsure how this is resolved by the closest color calculation 15:32:38 ... it doesn't maintain contrast where indicated, so foreground and background colors could end up the same where contrast is required. 15:32:58 close issue-208 15:32:58 Closed issue-208. 15:33:08 issue-225 15:33:13 issue-225 -- tts:fontSize as percentage of container dimensions -- pending review 15:33:13 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/225 15:34:05 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml2/spec/ttml2.html#style-value-length 15:34:12 -Plh 15:34:21 pal: likes the idea of an explicit viewport size relationship mechanism 15:34:41 pal: there are now two ways to do this. Either use cell resolution or this one which is really explicit. 15:35:09 glenn: that's correct. If it happens that an em square matches a cell size then there's a third way. 15:37:37 nigel: when calculating vmin or vmax should non-square aspect ratios be taken into account? 15:38:27 glenn: the width and height of the root container region turns into a specific value in TTML pixels, not related to aspect ratio. The pixel aspect ratio parameter comes into play independently. 15:41:40 action nigel to check if pixel aspect ratio makes a difference when performing the min and max comparison 15:41:41 Created ACTION-201 - Check if pixel aspect ratio makes a difference when performing the min and max comparison [on Nigel Megitt - due 2013-09-12]. 15:44:04 pal: what should the preferred way of achieving this be, for document authors? 15:45:24 issue-225: add comment under tts:fontSize indicating that vw/vh could also be expressed using cell (c) units 15:45:24 Notes added to issue-225 tts:fontSize as percentage of container dimensions. 15:47:26 action-201: is associated with issue-225 15:47:26 Notes added to action-201 Check if pixel aspect ratio makes a difference when performing the min and max comparison. 15:47:55 issue-227 15:47:55 issue-227 --

fade-up and –down -- pending review 15:47:55 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/227 15:57:51 glenn: describes new animation feature that addresses both fade up and fade down and other use cases. 15:58:52 pal: this appears to resolve the opacity requirement. There's another issue open relating more closely to animation requirements. 15:59:32 glenn: animation is needed for the opacity requirement and could not be with set. 15:59:40 close issue-227 15:59:40 Closed issue-227. 15:59:58 glenn: won't be able to attend next week 16:00:25 nigel: won't be able to attend next week or the week after. 16:00:31 pal: won't be able to attend the 19th. 16:00:46 regrets for nigel and glenn for Sep 12 16:01:21 regrets for nigel and pal for Sep 19 16:01:35 note that IBC overlaps Sep 12 so others may be absent 16:02:12 -pal 16:02:20 -[Adobe] 16:02:20 trackbot, end meeting 16:02:20 Zakim, list attendees 16:02:22 As of this point the attendees have been glenn, pal, nigel, +1.858.882.aaaa, mike, tmichel, Plh, [Adobe] 16:02:28 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:02:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-tt-minutes.html trackbot 16:02:29 RRSAgent, bye 16:02:29 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-tt-actions.rdf : 16:02:29 ACTION: glenn to create new issue about need for region elements to obtain inherited styles, possibly from layout or tt element [1] 16:02:29 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-tt-irc#T15-00-57 16:02:29 ACTION: glenn to add ttp:version to items for possible F2F agenda [2] 16:02:29 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-tt-irc#T15-12-45