15:03:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/04-rdf-wg-irc
15:03:05 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:03:08 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
15:03:09 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:03:09 <trackbot> Date: 04 September 2013
15:03:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
15:03:29 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
15:03:29 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, davidwood
15:03:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, RRSAgent, Zakim, markus, pfps, gkellogg_, Arnaud, gkellogg, AndyS, TallTed, davidwood, gavinc, yvesr, trackbot, manu, sandro, ericP
15:03:41 <davidwood> Zakim, start the meeting
15:03:41 <Zakim> I don't understand 'start the meeting', davidwood
15:03:48 <sandro> zakim, this is rdfwg
15:03:48 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:03:48 <davidwood> Zakim, this is RDF
15:03:49 <Zakim> davidwood, this was already SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:03:49 <Zakim> ok, davidwood; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:03:57 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
15:03:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see Arnaud, [GVoice], davidwood, Sandro, +1.415.686.aaaa, [IPcaller]
15:03:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, RRSAgent, Zakim, markus, pfps, Arnaud, gkellogg, AndyS, TallTed, davidwood, gavinc, yvesr, trackbot, manu, sandro, ericP
15:04:00 <AndyS> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:04:00 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:04:32 <pfps> zakim, gvoice is me
15:04:32 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:04:35 <Zakim> + +081165aabb
15:04:37 <sandro> zakim, aaaa is gkellogg
15:04:37 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
15:04:39 <gkellogg> zakim, I am aaa
15:04:39 <Zakim> sorry, gkellogg, I do not see a party named 'aaa'
15:04:44 <gkellogg> zakim, I am aaaa
15:04:45 <Zakim> sorry, gkellogg, I do not see a party named 'aaaa'
15:04:46 <AZ> Zakim, aabb is me
15:04:46 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:04:48 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:04:53 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
15:04:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see Arnaud, pfps, davidwood, Sandro, gkellogg, AndyS, AZ, OpenLink_Software
15:04:56 <gkellogg> zakim, I am +1.415.686.aaaa
15:04:56 <Zakim> sorry, gkellogg, I do not see a party named '+1.415.686.aaaa'
15:04:59 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:05:04 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:05:05 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
15:05:05 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
15:05:06 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
15:05:23 <Zakim> +Tobie
15:05:27 <Arnaud> scribe: Arnaud
15:05:31 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 28 August telecon (dates of TriG actions have been corrected):
15:05:31 <davidwood> 
15:05:31 <davidwood>    https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-08-28
15:05:33 <Arnaud> chair: david
15:05:41 <Arnaud> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.09.04
15:05:49 <pfps> minutes look OK
15:05:49 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ -- agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.09.04
15:05:50 <AndyS> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:05:50 <Zakim> sorry, AndyS, I do not recognize a party named 'ipcaller'
15:05:50 <Arnaud> topic: Minutes of 28 August
15:06:00 <davidwood> Review of action items
15:06:00 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
15:06:00 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
15:06:01 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see Arnaud, pfps, davidwood, Sandro, gkellogg, AZ, TallTed (muted), Tobie
15:06:10 <Arnaud> resolved: Minutes of 28 August approved
15:06:22 <Arnaud> topic: Review of action items
15:06:27 <AndyS> zakim, really? How can I hear the TC then?
15:06:28 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AndyS.
15:06:33 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:52 <Arnaud> david: no one claiming credits for an action item
15:07:53 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:07:53 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted
15:08:06 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
15:08:06 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
15:08:10 <Arnaud> david: next meeting is Sep 11
15:08:32 <davidwood> Topic: TriG / N-Triples / N-Quads
15:08:58 <TallTed> Zakim, Tobie is AndyS
15:08:58 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:09:01 <Arnaud> david: is N-Triple ready to go to LC?
15:09:15 <Arnaud> andy: not had a chance to review the latest changes yet
15:09:26 <Zakim> +Souri
15:10:10 <Arnaud> ... only planning to join as editor on TriG
15:10:30 <Arnaud> david: next thing to do is to vote on taking the drafts to LC
15:11:12 <Arnaud> andy: let's have a vote with people here and send a message to the list to inform others
15:11:30 <Arnaud> sandro: who else reviewed the drafts?
15:11:39 <Arnaud> (silence)
15:12:12 <Arnaud> sandro: we should have someone else than andy review
15:12:45 <Arnaud> david: don't see any reviews on the list from anyone else
15:13:12 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-08-21#TriG___2f___20_N__2d_Triples___2f___20_N__2d_Quads
15:13:14 <Arnaud> andy: 31 August we already resolved to move N-Triples
15:13:38 <AndyS> ... says "RESOLVED: Publish N-Triples as LCWD."
15:14:25 <Zakim> -pfps
15:14:32 <Arnaud> s/31 August/21 August/
15:15:16 <Arnaud> david: isn't that supposed to be just a Note?
15:15:17 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
15:15:30 <Arnaud> sandro: I think Gavin is still trying to get them on the REC track
15:15:31 <AndyS> The required WS changes have been made.
15:15:33 <pfps> zakim, gvoice is me
15:15:33 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:15:42 <Arnaud> daivd: let's take a vote for each document
15:15:52 <Arnaud> s/daivd/david/
15:16:13 <Arnaud> sandro: has anyone reviewed them?
15:16:23 <Arnaud> gkellogg: I have before
15:16:33 <AndyS> ... and also in NQ
15:16:52 <AndyS> email -- Pub rules ready N-Quads: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/drafts/n-quads/Overview.html
15:16:54 <Arnaud> sandro: not comfortable making the decision without the editors telling us what the exact status is
15:17:43 <Arnaud> david: was told via IRC that the drafts N-Triples and N-Quads were ready for LC
15:17:46 <AndyS> hg log -- https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/log/5a3d1835c438/nquads/index.html
15:18:18 <Arnaud> david: I think we can at least decide to send N-Quad to LC
15:18:24 <Arnaud> ... need to set a review period
15:18:32 <AndyS> (it allows blank graph labels :-)
15:18:35 <Arnaud> gkellogg: need to reference the test suite
15:19:25 <Arnaud> sandro: don't see any mention that N-Quads is essentially a subset of datasets
15:19:36 <Arnaud> ... should say that somewhere, in the abstract
15:19:38 <Arnaud> david: I agree
15:19:51 <Arnaud> ... could you send that as a review to Gavin and cc the list?
15:20:11 <Arnaud> sandro: yes, we could also decide to publish pending resolution
15:21:19 <Arnaud> gkellogg: we could also reference the test suite from the document but we haven't discussed a location for that
15:21:28 <Arnaud> andy: would be nice
15:21:48 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Publish N-Quads as a LCWD pending the inclusion of a clarification that the Datasets referred to in the document are a subset of RDF Datasets due to the lack of support for an empty default graph.
15:22:00 <Arnaud> gkellogg: it's a ReSpec feature
15:22:33 <Arnaud> ... it allows you to put a reference to the test suite but we'd need to decide on the permanent location of the test suite
15:23:04 <Arnaud> sandro: we could pick a URL and put a page there that points to the actual location
15:24:14 <gkellogg> http://json-ld.org/test-suite/
15:24:57 <gkellogg> testSuiteURI:         "http://www.w3.org/2013/json-ld-tests/",
15:25:13 <Arnaud> david: do we need to change the proposal?
15:25:20 <Arnaud> andy: no
15:25:26 <gkellogg> s/testSuiteURI/ReSpec Incantation: testSuiteURI/
15:26:04 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Publish N-Quads as a LCWD pending the inclusion of a clarification that the Datasets referred to in the document are a subset of RDF Datasets due to the lack of support for empty graphs and to include links to the test suite.
15:26:06 <Arnaud> sandro: proposal needs to be changed, it's not just about empty default graph
15:26:43 <Arnaud> andy: actually we can't put a link to the test suite
15:27:09 <Zakim> -pfps
15:27:12 <Arnaud> gkellogg: let's just have a wiki page and reference that
15:27:39 <Arnaud> sandro: could make one similar to the json-ld one
15:27:49 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/
15:28:01 <Arnaud> ... http://www.w3.org/2013/n-quads-tests/
15:28:27 <Arnaud> ... http://www.w3.org/2013/NQuadTests/ ?
15:29:01 <AndyS> Tests are   https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/file/default/nquads/tests
15:29:29 <AndyS> name is "N-Quads"
15:29:38 <Arnaud> ... http://www.w3.org/2013/N-QuadsTests/
15:30:10 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2013/n-quads-tests/
15:30:33 <sandro> N-QuadsTests
15:31:24 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Publish N-Quads as a LCWD pending the inclusion of a clarification that the Datasets referred to in the document are a subset of RDF Datasets due to the lack of support for empty graphs and to include links to the test suite.
15:31:36 <AndyS> +1
15:31:37 <Arnaud> +1
15:31:40 <davidwood> +1
15:31:45 <gkellogg> +1
15:31:46 <sandro> +1
15:31:47 <TallTed> +1
15:31:53 <AZ> +1
15:32:01 <Souri> +1
15:32:11 <davidwood> RESOLVED: Publish N-Quads as a LCWD pending the inclusion of a clarification that the Datasets referred to in the document are a subset of RDF Datasets due to the lack of support for empty graphs and to include links to the test suite.
15:32:56 <Arnaud> david: do we need to ask for any changes on N-Triples?
15:33:15 <Arnaud> sandro: like to add the link to the test suite?
15:34:06 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/2013/N-TriplesTests/
15:34:56 <Arnaud> andy: I put a request for technical review on TriG
15:35:11 <Arnaud> ... it would be helpful to get technical feedback
15:35:26 <AndyS> document -- https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html#
15:35:59 <Arnaud> gkellogg: happy to have another look at it and check with my implementation but can't commit to a formal review for the next 2 weeks
15:36:08 <Arnaud> andy: any feedback would be helpful
15:36:27 <Arnaud> gkellogg: will send something by next week
15:36:40 <Arnaud> david: anyone else?
15:37:20 <Arnaud> ... souri?
15:37:32 <Arnaud> souri: ok, I can do that within 2 weeks
15:38:14 <markus> markus has joined #rdf-wg
15:38:15 <Arnaud> sandro: I'm up to review it
15:38:26 <sandro> done:   http://www.w3.org/2013/N-QuadsTests/
15:38:29 <davidwood> Topic: RDF/JSON
15:39:01 <Zakim> +??P5
15:39:06 <markus> zakim, ?? P5 is me
15:39:06 <Zakim> I don't understand '?? P5 is me', markus
15:39:29 <markus> zakim, ??P5 is me
15:39:29 <Zakim> +markus; got it
15:40:17 <Arnaud> Arnaud: believe draft is ready, JSON-LD reference needs to be fixed, Guus said he would do it
15:40:19 <markus> I was not just talking about JSON-LD ref.. also RDF Concepts ref
15:41:36 <Arnaud> david: ok, let's give Guus a bit of time to do it
15:42:34 <gkellogg> N-Triples test suite location: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/tests-nt/
15:42:53 <davidwood> Topic: LC for Concepts, Semantics
15:43:05 <davidwood> Reminder: The Last Call period ends 06 September 2013.
15:43:10 <gkellogg> N-Quads test suite location: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/nquads/tests/
15:43:23 <davidwood> Open issues for Concepts: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/8
15:43:32 <Arnaud> david: LC ends in just a couple of days and don't seem to have any open issues for Semantics but have 3 open issues for Concepts
15:43:51 <Arnaud> ... will need to clarify and fix the document
15:44:29 <Arnaud> ... we can wait for the review period to end but is there any issue we can discuss?
15:45:13 <Arnaud> ... didn't we already close issue-140?
15:45:17 <AZ> Yes, ISSUE-140 should be resolved
15:45:32 <davidwood> https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-08-21#resolution_7
15:45:34 <Arnaud> ... already have a resolution
15:45:41 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2013/N-TriplesTests/ done
15:45:46 <davidwood> CLOSE ISSUE-140
15:45:47 <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-140.
15:46:10 <Arnaud> ... I will send email to Ivan to the comments list
15:46:35 <Arnaud> ... down to 2 open issues, issue-139 and issue-141
15:47:13 <davidwood> David Booth suggested http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Aug/0002.html
15:47:39 <Arnaud> sandro: we've gone through issue-139 before, many times
15:48:50 <Arnaud> ... within the json-ld context
15:49:07 <Arnaud> ... not sure where we ended though
15:49:51 <Arnaud> sandro: I think David's proposed wording is better
15:50:07 <sandro> s/better/okay/
15:51:00 <Arnaud> david: I agree with the sentiment, need to check with Peter
15:51:19 <sandro> pfps ??
15:52:18 <Arnaud> david: I propose we close issue-139 accepting David Booth's proposed wording but leaving the exact wording to the editors
15:53:29 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-139 using David Booth's proposed solution at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Aug/0002.html.  Exact wording will be considered editorial.
15:53:46 <AZ> +1
15:53:50 <davidwood> +1
15:54:03 <sandro> +1
15:54:07 <Souri> +1
15:54:09 <markus> +1
15:54:15 <gkellogg> +1
15:54:22 <Arnaud> +1
15:54:37 <TallTed> +1
15:54:50 <davidwood> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-139 using David Booth's proposed solution at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Aug/0002.html.  Exact wording will be considered editorial.
15:55:09 <davidwood> CLOSE ISSUE-139
15:55:09 <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-139.
15:55:30 <davidwood> ISSUE-141?
15:55:30 <trackbot> ISSUE-141 -- Fragment Identifiers (Sebastian Hellmann) -- open
15:55:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/141
15:56:37 <Arnaud> david: propose to hold that one for the moment
15:56:48 <Arnaud> david: AOB?
15:57:16 <AndyS> trig document -- https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html#
15:57:23 <Arnaud> ... *meeting adjourned!*
15:57:29 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:57:30 <Zakim> -gkellogg
15:57:31 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:57:34 <Zakim> -davidwood
15:57:34 <Zakim> -Souri
15:57:34 <Zakim> -TallTed
15:57:34 <Zakim> -markus
15:57:35 <Zakim> -AZ
15:57:35 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
15:57:36 <Zakim> Attendees were Arnaud, davidwood, Sandro, +1.415.686.aaaa, AndyS, pfps, +081165aabb, gkellogg, AZ, TallTed, Souri, markus
16:03:15 <gavinc> and I'm back!....
16:03:17 <gavinc> sigh ;)
16:03:22 <sandro> heh
16:05:05 <gavinc> Can totally add the datasets language had it at one point before I went off and noticed that it's a total non issue as there are exactly 0 implementations of any syntax today that allow for the exchange of empty graphs ;) All the existing TriG parsers don't, they allow for the empty syntax but no-op it, they don't produce empty graphs when parsing.
16:06:08 <gavinc> and that since SPARQL implementations are allowed to ignore empty graphs it's not much of an interop issue
16:07:42 <sandro> slight grumble that y'all blocked me from excluding empty graphs from datasets.     rrrr.
16:07:55 <sandro> but since we have them, we need to keep explaining this.
16:29:47 <gavinc> "N-Quad documents do not provide a way of seralizing empty graphs that may be part of an RDF dataset."
16:29:52 <gavinc> N-Quad documents do not provide a way of serializing empty graphs that may be part of an RDF dataset.
16:30:27 <gavinc> note in the conformance section
16:30:30 <gavinc> sound good?
16:40:37 <sandro> That text is fine for conformance.      You don't want to say more in the intro about why?  and when this matters?
16:48:08 <gavinc> Not really no, since it doesn't matter in practice
16:49:27 <gavinc> You can't put any meaning on the empty graph (There isn't any semantics anyway) and you can't really use empty graphs any meaningful exchange since your totally allowed to throw them away
16:49:30 <gavinc> anyway
16:51:48 <gavinc> and from the frozen dataset perspective the empty graph are totally funky anyway. I don't think any of the semantics we tossed around or are going to be in the note deal with them
16:52:57 <gavinc> So no, I don't think we need to draw any more attention to them
16:53:41 <sandro> But not explaining them draws attention to them, as a glaring hole.
16:55:44 <gavinc> WTF... what happened to respec?
16:57:03 <gavinc> Okay, that was totally strange all better now
16:57:18 <gavinc> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/drafts/n-quads/Overview.html#conformance
16:58:03 <sandro> +1
16:58:16 <gavinc> any concepts already deals with it in a note
16:58:17 <gavinc> "Some RDF dataset implementations do not track empty named graphs. Applications can avoid interoperability issues by not ascribing importance to the presence or absence of empty named graphs."
16:58:30 <sandro> True.
16:58:51 <gavinc> That's the only right answer, they are sometimes useful implementation details, that are totally useless for exchange ;)
16:58:53 <sandro> Do you want to try to publish these on the 10th, along with the JSON-LD CR (expected), or do it a different time?
16:59:04 <sandro> (gotta run)
16:59:06 <gavinc> Want? I want them NOW ;)
16:59:27 <gavinc> Note the very aggressive publication date
17:00:29 <gavinc> gkellogg: There is some test suite linking feature?
17:00:39 <gavinc> How do I use this magic test suite linking feature?
17:01:20 <sandro> hopefully gregg will answer
17:01:28 <sandro> re publication, want to contact the webmaster, etc?
17:01:41 <sandro> might be possible to get it done for tomorrow
17:01:50 <gavinc> Someone point me at what I need to do
17:02:22 <sandro> I need to run for 2hrs, then I'll try.
17:02:28 <gavinc> cool
17:03:02 <sandro> er, not "run" but "be offline"
17:03:20 <sandro> actually -- briefly, have you don a pub before?  there's a page on our wiki
17:05:17 <gavinc> amazingly no
17:05:53 <gavinc> Done all the pubrules stuff
17:06:21 <sandro> All this: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Tips_on_publishing_ReSpec-based_documents   ?
17:07:00 <sandro> Okay, I just emailed the webmaster and CC'd you.    From here you should be able to work with him to get the publications done tomorrow or the 10th.     But keep me cc'd and I should be able to help if necessary.
17:07:17 <gavinc> Okay
17:10:51 <davidwood> davidwood has joined #rdf-wg
17:13:49 <Arnaud> sandro?
17:13:54 <Arnaud> are you gone already?
17:31:03 <davidwood> davidwood has joined #rdf-wg
17:35:54 <davidwood> davidwood has joined #rdf-wg
18:07:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-wg
18:35:37 <davidwood> davidwood has joined #rdf-wg
19:13:48 <gkellogg> gavinc: We use it in the JSON-LD-API spec, just add 'testSuiteURI:         "http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/"' to the ReSpec config
19:14:07 <gkellogg> (or whatever test suite URL is appropriate)
19:14:44 <gkellogg> e.g. http://www.w3.org/2013/N-QuadsTests/
19:41:58 <davidwood> davidwood has joined #rdf-wg
21:03:11 <davidwood> davidwood has joined #rdf-wg
21:06:29 <gavinc> thanks gkellogg, updated draft
22:12:25 <gavinc> in which sandro makes makes the webmaster gods happy
22:12:35 <gavinc> thanks sandro!
22:12:56 <sandro> and the webmaster makes sandro angry.    :-/
22:13:21 <sandro> I don't understand your line:
22:13:21 <sandro> ... the current draft http://www.w3.org/TR/n-quads/#conformance has a much worse URL in there ;)
22:13:21 <sandro> 
22:13:22 <sandro> ( gavinc )
22:13:33 <sandro> Oh, I do now.
22:13:36 <gavinc> uh huh
22:13:46 <gavinc> I have no idea how the old draft passed pub rules
22:13:51 <sandro> Right.
22:14:00 <gavinc> the section names are missing words, the links are all dead
22:14:07 <gavinc> and it's missing references ;)
22:14:27 <gavinc> and I have no idea how Guus produced those in the first place as I was on vaction
22:15:20 <sandro> But that argues that the webmaster is RIGHT to be strict about this detail, since it would have caught a typo like that.
22:16:35 <sandro> I tend to think my dislike of capricious authority is why I get along with computers -- they're almost never actually capricious.      I wonder if that's true in general among programmers.
22:24:11 <davidwood1> davidwood1 has joined #rdf-wg
22:33:47 <davidwood1> sandro, I would think so, yes.  +1 to computers being more consistent than people ;)
22:42:52 <gavinc> Yeah, computers were fine with me spelling it dc:modifed until one day a human got annoyed and fixed it. I was on vacation at the time, the humans had a very bad week.
22:43:41 <gavinc> I was VERY consistent in my spelling for the computer
22:44:13 <gavinc> there was even an owl:sameAs for it ;)
23:37:20 <davidwood> heh