13:00:00 RRSAgent has joined #sysapps 13:00:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-sysapps-irc 13:00:15 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:00:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-sysapps-minutes.html Josh_Soref 13:00:18 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:00:33 Zakim, this will be SysApps 13:00:33 ok, Josh_Soref, I see UW_SYSAPPS()8:00AM already started 13:00:54 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/System_Applications:_2nd_F2F_Meeting_Agenda 13:01:05 Meeting: SysApps Face-to-Face #2 13:01:13 Chair: mounir, wonsuk 13:01:32 scribe: Josh_Soref 13:01:34 scribenick: timeless 13:01:39 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:01:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-sysapps-minutes.html timeless 13:03:54 Joonhyung has joined #sysapps 13:08:36 Zakim, what is the code? 13:08:36 the conference code is 79727 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Josh_Soref 13:08:49 Josh_Soref has changed the topic to: conference code is 79727 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), 13:12:04 marcosc has joined #sysapps 13:14:04 jungkees has joined #sysapps 13:14:30 Present+ Jungkee_Song 13:17:55 gmandyam has joined #sysapps 13:17:59 Marta has joined #sysapps 13:18:03 chaals has joined #sysapps 13:18:40 topic: DataStore 13:18:55 https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/DataStore 13:19:11 s|https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/DataStore|-> https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/DataStore WebAPI/DataStore| 13:19:39 jmajnert has joined #sysapps 13:19:40 marcosc: zkis, you did some work showing that you could map contacts to this? 13:19:54 lgombos has joined #sysapps 13:20:03 zkis has joined #sysapps 13:20:11 q? 13:20:36 Claes has joined #sysapps 13:21:00 https://etherpad.mozilla.org/un9XkdXeKh 13:21:16 genelian has joined #sysapps 13:21:20 zkis: i removed the storage access methods -- they're provided by datastore 13:21:26 ... i moved the sms/mms objects to navigator 13:21:30 Present+ Claes_Nilsson 13:21:50 can someone drop the link for the MozPad? 13:21:52 s|https://etherpad.mozilla.org/un9XkdXeKh|-> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/un9XkdXeKh draft API for W3C System Applications Messaging API, using DataStore concept| 13:22:08 s/can someone drop the link for the MozPad?// 13:22:17 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:22:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-sysapps-minutes.html timeless 13:22:36 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 13:22:41 Present+ Sakari_Poussa 13:22:51 Zakim, who is on the call? 13:22:51 On the phone I see [Mozilla] 13:22:54 Present+ Wonsuk_Lee 13:23:22 https://etherpad.mozilla.org/whatever-you-want 13:23:44 Zakim, [Mozilla] contains marcosc, Josh_Soref, anssik, mounir, spoussa, kjwallis_, gmandyam, genelian, zkis, dsr, wonsuk, jungkees, lgombos, Claes 13:23:44 +marcosc, Josh_Soref, anssik, mounir, spoussa, kjwallis_, gmandyam, genelian, zkis, dsr, wonsuk, jungkees, lgombos, Claes; got it 13:24:05 Present+ Gene Lian 13:24:13 s/Gene Lian/Gene_Lian 13:25:09 marcosc: how does the system know where to put the data for sms? 13:25:14 Present+ Gene_Lian 13:25:15 zkis: we'd need to agree to this 13:25:40 s/Present+ Gene_Lian// 13:25:51 zkis: i've renamed `name` to `type` 13:25:57 marcosc: how do you query this? 13:26:06 ... does the datastore represent all objects? 13:26:10 ... i don't see a cursor 13:26:17 Present+ Mounir_Lamouri 13:26:17 zkis: the datastore doesn't specify underlying satorage 13:26:22 Present+ Laszlo_Gombos 13:26:40 s/satorage/storage/ 13:27:09 mounir: the UC is to exactly not do that with Datastore 13:27:19 ... if you want to get all contacts w/ FirstName=John 13:27:33 ... you export all data from the Datastore into your own IndexedDB 13:27:42 ... and that Datastore has its own structure / indices 13:28:01 marcosc: aren't you duplicating data? 13:28:12 s/Datastore/IndexedDB/ 13:28:22 dsr has joined #sysapps 13:28:25 Everyone: Yes 13:28:47 marcosc: it's screaming for other functionality 13:28:52 ... IndexedDB is already a pain 13:28:56 q+ Josh_Soref to answer 13:29:03 ... you're stuck w/ half the functionality you need 13:29:14 ... data synchronization 13:29:16 ... but nothing else 13:30:10 ack Josh_Soref 13:30:10 Josh_Soref, you wanted to answer 13:30:25 q? 13:30:26 q+ 13:30:28 Josh_Soref: The idea is to make everything except synchronization painful 13:31:14 ... to force you to pull all the information into your storage system (probably IndexedDB) 13:34:26 Present+ Chaals(IRC) 13:35:12 ... you construct your IndexedDB (or whatever) to have wihchever indices you need 13:38:26 ack mounir 13:43:59 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 13:44:42 wonsuk has left #sysapps 13:44:49 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 13:46:13 thinker has joined #sysapps 13:47:36 Zakim, who is on the call? 13:47:36 On the phone I see [Mozilla] 13:47:37 [Mozilla] has marcosc, Josh_Soref, anssik, mounir, spoussa, kjwallis_, gmandyam, genelian, zkis, dsr, wonsuk, jungkees, lgombos, Claes 13:48:02 zkis: I want to be able to expose sim1, sim2, and phone as distinct sources of data 13:48:09 mounir: i don't want filtering in the datastore 13:48:29 marcosc: are we renaming DataStore to DataSource to indicate that it's not really a primary write api 13:48:32 Josh_Soref: yes 13:48:43 mounir: there's no UC for having isolation of data 13:49:00 Josh_Soref: BlackBerry Balance and Samsung's competition into the area shows that there is demand for isolation 13:49:31 ... where an application or type of application have multiple things, one which they're ok w/ sharing to everyone, and one which users (or their supervisors) only want to share w/ some limited set 13:50:17 Josh_Soref: chaals is not in the room (and not on the bridge) 13:50:28 zkis: is there something we can draw on? 13:50:30 marcosc: yes 13:50:40 [ Marcos wanders off to get something for scribbling ] 13:50:45 [Yes, being able to identify data from different sources has use cases.] 13:51:35 kenneth_ has joined #sysapps 13:51:43 [SIMs are "often" (for rich users with lots of money to spend) effectively related to location (for poor users they are related to cheapest way to connect to someone)] 13:52:25 opoto has joined #sysapps 13:52:33 [either way, knowing which source "taxi", "john" and "jo*" come from is extremely useful in practice] 13:52:57 hsinyi has joined #sysapps 13:53:08 dsuwirya has joined #sysapps 13:53:46 marcosc: i think that (what chaals said) makes sense 13:54:23 ... Adding .. if you have two sims and you add, and you can't target the sim, what does that mean... 13:54:27 ... is that missing/useful? 13:54:40 ... if i want to add Bob as a Contact for sim2 13:54:44 ... how would i do that? 13:54:55 zkis: let's solve reading first 13:55:24 [If you can't decide which SIM to add to, you have a fail] 13:55:35 zkis: partitions ... 13:55:53 ... as a platform provider, i want the freedom to define how to put the sim data -- together, or separately 13:56:14 ... i want the freedom for merging/not merging online sources 13:56:28 gmandyam: zkis, where would end user dialog boxes appear? 13:56:31 q+ 13:56:37 ... an application that wants something from the dataS* 13:56:44 ... targeting something that's application specific 13:56:54 ... where would a dialog pop up, what would it say? 13:57:00 zkis: dialogs pop up, that's a policy 13:57:08 ... for accessing this data, you need this permission 13:57:24 ... if an application gets Facebook, or All, that's by app 14:00:18 Josh_Soref: The security boundary is at Navigator.getDataStores(type) 14:00:38 ... whether your signature entitled you to all, or you get prompted 14:01:17 ... and whether you permanently grant that source to that client-app 14:01:22 gmandyam: ok 14:01:39 i/boundary/gmandyam: Where is the security boundary?/ 14:01:51 gmandyam: I think this does handle the Gallery API UC too 14:01:54 marcosc: ok 14:01:59 ... i think that was good 14:02:03 ... we made good progress there 14:03:16 q+ genelian 14:03:18 ack genelian 14:03:23 genelian: on UCs 14:03:28 ... we have a "special type of SMS" 14:03:31 ... a "silent SMS" 14:03:37 ... fairly similar to regular SMS 14:03:56 ... when radio interface receives a silent SMS, the system doesn't reflect that 14:04:19 ... can the DataS* api manage that? 14:04:27 zkis: that's binary/port targeted 14:04:35 ... and the system won't dispatch it to this API 14:04:44 marcosc: are they stored? 14:05:14 zkis: they are not serialized to the sim, they are associated with it and dispatched or dropped immediately 14:05:19 zkis: what's next? 14:05:24 marcosc: sounds like it's a good thing 14:05:27 ... we know there are issues 14:05:33 ... can we retrofit apis to fit this? 14:05:35 ... kind of maybe 14:05:46 zkis: can we make a resolution to use it in the spec? 14:05:55 mounir: i don't think we should resolve to use the api 14:06:00 ... unless people agree to the UCs 14:06:12 mounir: i think we have fundamental requirement differences 14:06:18 zkis: so you're suggesting dropping the whole thing? 14:06:26 mounir: i think we should think about it and see how we should go 14:06:34 zkis: who looks into it, how, how does this work? 14:06:51 ... i could do work on messaging/telephony, or work w/ chris/eduardo on contacts 14:06:54 marcosc: i could work on it 14:07:00 mounir: chris could update contacts 14:07:04 ... eduardo updates messaging 14:07:11 mounir: what if some people want to implement, some don't 14:07:17 ... some think it's a good idea, some don't 14:07:26 ... if you want to do updates, i'm not going to forbid you 14:07:30 ... i don't feel consensus 14:07:35 zkis: let's vote 14:08:21 thinker: datasource for other apis ... contacts/messaging 14:08:28 ... we have a lot of api to define similar 14:08:34 marcosc: yes/no 14:08:42 mounir: you can't do yes/no... yes for what? 14:08:56 [ Argument between mounir / marcosc -- both of Mozilla ] 14:09:09 zkis: if you're giving this to the community 14:09:14 ... and letting it be changed 14:09:23 mounir: the requirements you have are not the requirements we have 14:09:32 ... i won't commit to that 14:09:52 zkis: it's adding one property 14:09:58 mounir: it's changing the meaning 14:10:04 anssik: we could commit to refining the UCs 14:10:15 zkis: i need a clear answer from mounir 14:10:21 wonsuk: i don't think we made a consensus now 14:10:26 ... how about more time for discussion 14:10:28 s/from mounir/from Mozilla/ 14:10:41 ... not all participants are here at this meeting 14:10:45 ... i want feedback from other editors 14:10:54 ... and we can make a decision later on how to handle this API 14:10:57 ... i'm not sure the scope 14:11:05 zkis: first we need UCs and Requirements 14:11:26 wonsuk: we mentioned Messaging/Contacts 14:11:30 ... gmandyam mentioned Gallery 14:11:37 gmandyam: and mounir said sim card was out of scope 14:11:41 +1 on clearly defining UCs and Reqs and then let the wider group review them 14:11:41 q? 14:11:49 q+ 14:11:52 marcosc: ok, we'll take it to the list 14:11:55 ... it isn't ideal 14:12:05 ... i think it's fair to give the other editors a chance to look at it 14:12:18 dsr: i heard yesterday that we wanted to simplify the other specifications 14:12:30 ... rather than saying in-scope/out-of-scope 14:12:47 ... -- i'll type the rest 14:13:55 ... you could send pull requests 14:13:59 s/... you could send pull requests// 14:14:33 We talked yesterday about simplifying a number of our specifications by refactoring them, that in turn implies understanding whether our respective requirements for those specifications are compatible or not. This should drive the work not questions of scoping for a datastore API. 14:14:45 topic: Event Pages 14:14:49 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 14:14:51 topic: Event Pages 14:14:57 s/topic: Event Pages// 14:15:04 anssik: wondering how we'd like to use the session. we reviewed what we proposed w/ kenneth_ 14:15:12 ... i'd like to propose real time updating the proposal 14:15:17 ... it's on my github 14:15:22 ... you could send pull requests 14:15:28 ... people could point to the spec/section. 14:15:32 ... let's not use github issues 14:15:35 https://etherpad.mozilla.org/event-pages 14:16:07 http://anssiko.github.io/runtime/app-lifecycle.html 14:16:43 s|http://anssiko.github.io/runtime/app-lifecycle.html|-> http://anssiko.github.io/runtime/app-lifecycle.html Application Lifecycle and Events| 14:17:00 mounir: the next time-block will have two sessions in parallel 14:17:43 marcosc: in 45 minutes we'll have a Sockets meeting concurrent to this meeting 14:17:52 ... this block will run for two hours 14:18:20 ... we have half an hour afterwards 14:18:31 ... my idea was that each group would give a summary of what they concluded -- then 14:20:33 ... i don't really expect this to be minuted 14:24:31 i/time-block/Topic: Order of business 14:24:35 topic: Event Pages 14:24:56 anssik: there's a question of whether we're basing stuff on Workers or ... 14:25:05 ... it's on the etherpad 14:28:35 marcosc: "Runtime" is weird, why not "App"? 14:28:43 mounir: because chrome does that 14:33:12 chaals has joined #sysapps 14:41:02 [discussions happenning without scribing] 14:42:38 [OK. I'll ask someone what happened] 15:01:34 chaals has left #sysapps 15:06:16 s/mounir/scribe/ 15:06:27 topic: Break outs 15:06:37 Event Pages has moved to the other room 15:06:50 The main room is now informal 15:06:56 Sockets has moved somewhere 15:10:45 https://etherpad.mozilla.org/event-pages 15:10:53 http://localhost/~akostiai/sysapps/runtime/app-lifecycle.html 15:10:57 JonathanJ1 has joined #sysapps 15:11:18 ehsan has joined #sysapps 15:11:24 s/http://localhost/~akostiai/sysapps/runtime/app-lifecycle.html/http://anssiko.github.io/runtime/app-lifecycle.html/ 15:11:28 http://anssiko.github.io/runtime/app-lifecycle.html 15:12:13 kjwallis has joined #sysapps 15:19:00 thinker has joined #sysapps 15:23:51 JonathanJ1 has joined #sysapps 15:24:21 Present+ Jonghong_Jeon 15:30:24 http://gnosis.cx/publish/programming/sockets.html 15:30:34 http://nodejs.org/api/net.html#net_socket_write_data_encoding_callback 15:30:48 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAPI/TCP_Socket 15:34:00 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2014033/send-and-receive-a-file-in-socket-programming-in-linux-with-c-c-gcc-g 15:34:20 // You need a loop for the write, because not all of the data may be written 15:34:20 // in one call; write will return how many bytes were written. p keeps 15:34:20 // track of where in the buffer we are, while we decrement bytes_read 15:34:20 // to keep track of how many bytes are left to write. 15:34:21 void *p = buffer; 15:34:21 while (bytes_read > 0) { 15:34:21 int bytes_written = write(output_socket, p, bytes_read); 15:34:22 if (bytes_written <= 0) { 15:34:22 // handle errors 15:34:22 } 15:34:22 bytes_read -= bytes_written; 15:34:22 p += bytes_written; 15:34:22 } 15:35:02 http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/write.html 15:35:07 If fildes refers to a socket, write() shall be equivalent to send() with no flags set. 15:35:15 http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/send.html 15:35:27 ssize_t send(int socket, const void *buffer, size_t length, int flags); 15:35:39 RETURN VALUE 15:35:39 Upon successful completion, send() shall return the number of bytes sent. Otherwise, -1 shall be returned and errno set to indicate the error. 15:38:32 http://linux.die.net/man/3/send 15:39:03 If space is not available at the sending socket to hold the message to be transmitted, and the socket file descriptor does not have O_NONBLOCK set, send() shall block until space is available. If space is not available at the sending socket to hold the message to be transmitted, and the socket file descriptor does have O_NONBLOCK set, send() shall fail. The select() and poll() functions can be used to determine when it is possible to send more data. 15:41:54 rrsagent, draft minute 15:41:54 I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minute', JonathanJ1. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:45:28 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:45:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1 15:48:31 chaals has joined #sysapps 16:02:56 http://nodejs.org/api/net.html#net_socket_write_data_encoding_callback 16:05:15 https://github.com/joyent/node/blob/master/src/stream_wrap.cc 16:06:29 https://github.com/joyent/node/blob/master/src/tcp_wrap.cc 16:12:35 zaki, who is on the call? 16:12:41 zakim, who is on the call? 16:12:41 On the phone I see [Mozilla] 16:12:42 [Mozilla] has marcosc, Josh_Soref, anssik, mounir, spoussa, kjwallis_, gmandyam, genelian, zkis, dsr, wonsuk, jungkees, lgombos, Claes 16:15:28 [lunch break because Intel guys want to eat] 16:57:15 spoussa has joined #sysapps 17:13:44 topic: Agenda 17:13:58 mounir: i had this slot for SysInfo, but the person who was going to call in isn't here 17:14:02 ... we'll move thatlater 17:14:06 s/thatlater/that to later/ 17:14:16 ... we could start w/ dev outreach 17:14:22 topic: Dev outreach 17:14:44 mounir: we're missing feedback a lot 17:14:48 ... we're missing Implementation Feedback 17:14:53 ... we're missing Developer Feedback 17:14:59 ... we don't know if APIs are following a good path 17:15:08 ... we don't know if developers will like them or not 17:15:47 ... we were wondering if dsr could talk to the W3 dev-rel team 17:16:14 ... do people here have feedback from dev-outreach? 17:16:21 ... or would they be willing to do dev-outreach? 17:16:42 kenneth_ has joined #sysapps 17:16:48 dsr: sure, i can contact the dev outreach team @w3 17:17:02 ... but there's only a few of them 17:17:07 ... wondering what we can do from our website 17:17:12 ... or elsewhere to reach out directly 17:17:20 marcosc: no...because... 17:17:36 ... when we publish stuf 17:17:54 ... Lea Verou sends things out 17:17:59 ... it reaches quite a few people 17:18:05 ... but one-to-one outreach 17:18:12 ... perhaps we want to encourage developers to contribute UCs 17:18:18 ... or contribute examples of what they've written 17:18:37 mounir: i've considered getting a Twitter account 17:18:42 opoto has joined #sysapps 17:18:43 ... for SysApps, and maybe tweet 17:18:49 ... web developers have and use twitter 17:19:04 ... marcosc and I tried to get people from public-script-coord 17:19:11 ... but we didn't get much 17:19:17 marcosc: some were good, some were not so good 17:19:31 mounir: people said very little 17:19:36 ... it's hard to get feedback w/o anything working 17:19:47 ... i'm more optimistic from developers using FirefoxOS APIs 17:20:14 opoto: would it help 17:20:25 ... if we had some way to rapidly share prototypes 17:20:49 ... so it isn't something fully compliant, but something to play w/ 17:20:54 +1 for opoto 17:20:59 marcosc: coincidentally 17:21:05 ... we've tried to do that from the beginning 17:21:12 ... the original Alarm had a reference Impl 17:21:20 ... mart has rewritten that, there's a JS impl 17:21:28 ... there's a pull request yesterday 17:21:40 ... I hope to be able to write a raw sockets api on top of Node 17:21:44 ... but we need help 17:21:49 ... writing real or lightweight impls 17:21:52 ... they don't take too long to write 17:21:58 ... especially on top of node or FirefoxOS 17:22:05 kjwallis has joined #sysapps 17:22:07 Josh_Soref: can i put in a plug for Cordova? 17:22:45 q? 17:22:47 marcosc: i spoke w/ Fil Maj 17:22:51 ... they were keen to do stuff 17:23:10 mounir: implementations behind flags is not enough 17:23:17 ... we don't get feedback until we push stuff to a release build 17:23:29 ... i've tried to get more developer feedback 17:23:36 ... by pushing apis in a limited ecosystem 17:23:59 ... we did that for Contacts API for example 17:24:04 ... we fixed a lot based on that 17:24:25 ... Contacts API is only available in FirefoxOS to signed apps 17:24:32 ... which let us get feedback from some developers 17:24:42 ... we weren't in a position that we couldn't change the api later 17:24:48 ... which is a big issue w/ experimenting 17:25:22 ... marcosc, can you ask the mozilla dev-outreach group? 17:25:28 ... dsr, the same to w3? 17:25:36 ... and i'll create a twitter account and tweet 17:25:49 ACTION: marcosc will contact the dev-rel team at Mozilla to do some dev-outreach 17:26:16 ACTION: dsr will contact the dev-rel team at W3C to do some dev-outreach (marcosc recommends contacting Léa Verou) 17:26:45 ACTION: mounir will open a Twitter account for sysapps and publish some stuff to get developers attention 17:28:32 http://2013.lxjs.org/ 17:32:10 Topic: Coordination and infrastructure 17:33:11 scribe: mounir 17:33:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:33:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1 17:33:27 marcosc: it seems that the github system is working well 17:33:42 ... something I have done is adding people to some groups so they got more emails 17:33:48 ... is that something that bother people? 17:33:58 q+ 17:34:23 [discussion about what to do with ACTIONS recorded] 17:34:44 mounir: I will take care of the actions 17:34:50 marcosc: have ppl got troubles? 17:35:00 ack mounir 17:35:35 ack dsr 17:35:55 mounir: it is still hard to follow what's happening without being following a github repo 17:36:27 marcosc: following what is happening in github is not much 17:37:01 marcosc: I try to look at pull requests to check if things should move to the list 17:37:07 marcosc: but we don't want to slow down things 17:37:49 q? 17:38:17 q+ to ask if we could get PR emails in the list 17:39:18 wonsuk: what about test cases in github? 17:39:33 marcosc: it is too early 17:39:42 ... we need to go to last call 17:40:01 ... we did some tests for app uri scheme but this is because that went to LC in webapps 17:40:31 marcosc: jmajnert will tell you that there are a lot of tests in widget, it takes a long time to write test suite 17:40:45 q? 17:41:01 dsr: why not add test even if it is not complete? 17:41:24 marcosc: we do TDD (Test Driven Development)... 1 sec... 17:41:38 [showing his AlarmPI tests] 17:42:21 [he lost himself in his GH page] 17:42:39 q? 17:42:45 ack mo 17:42:45 mounir, you wanted to ask if we could get PR emails in the list 17:43:19 mounir: what about having PR emails in the mailing list? 17:43:40 marcosc: I do not know if we can filter PR/commits/issues? 17:43:58 mounir: I will have a look 17:44:06 marcosc: ... unless they added this feature recently 17:46:24