14:58:12 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 14:58:12 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-wai-wcag-irc 14:58:16 Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG 14:58:28 zakim, this will be WCAG 14:58:29 ok, Joshue, I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM already started 14:58:47 Meeting: WCAG WG 14:58:52 Chair: Joshue 14:58:56 +David_MacDonald 14:59:04 rrsagent, make log world 14:59:18 +[Adobe] 14:59:47 + +1.704.877.aaaa 14:59:48 zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue 14:59:48 +Joshue; got it 14:59:58 zakim, .aaaa is Adobe 14:59:58 sorry, Joshue, I do not recognize a party named '.aaaa' 15:00:17 zakim, +1 704 is Adobe 15:00:17 I don't understand '+1 704 is Adobe', Joshue 15:00:28 +[IPcaller] 15:00:37 AWK has joined #wai-wcag 15:00:46 ""zakim, IPCaller is Loretta 15:00:54 korn has joined #wai-wcag 15:00:56 Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:00:56 On the phone I see Joshue, David_MacDonald, [Adobe], +1.704.877.aaaa, [IPcaller] 15:01:20 Zakim, +1.704.877 is Alan_Smith 15:01:20 +Alan_Smith; got it 15:01:21 zakim, IPCaller is Loretta 15:01:22 +Loretta; got it 15:01:31 Zakim, Adobe is AWK 15:01:32 +AWK; got it 15:01:41 Zakim, IP is Loretta 15:01:41 sorry, AWK, I do not recognize a party named 'IP' 15:01:47 Zakim, IPcaller is Loretta 15:01:47 sorry, AWK, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller' 15:01:53 Zakim, [IPcaller is Loretta 15:01:53 sorry, AWK, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller' 15:02:01 Andrew, I already got it. 15:02:21 Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:02:21 On the phone I see Joshue, David_MacDonald, AWK, Alan_Smith, Loretta 15:02:25 +Peter_Korn 15:04:26 marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag 15:04:31 +Marc_Johlic 15:05:08 +??P34 15:05:13 aland has joined #wai-wcag 15:05:17 Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:05:17 On the phone I see Joshue, David_MacDonald, AWK, Alan_Smith, Loretta, Peter_Korn, Marc_Johlic, Michael_Cooper 15:08:04 http://www.w3.org/2002/01/UsingZakim 15:08:17 http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html 15:08:18 +[IPcaller] 15:08:37 zakim, [IPcaller] is Kerstin 15:08:37 +Kerstin; got it 15:08:47 kerstin has joined #wai-wcag 15:09:12 zakim who is on the line 15:09:18 Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:09:18 On the phone I see Joshue, David_MacDonald, AWK, Alan_Smith, Loretta, Peter_Korn, Marc_Johlic, Michael_Cooper, Kerstin 15:09:29 zakim, mute me 15:09:29 Kerstin should now be muted 15:09:48 zakim, agenda? 15:09:48 I see nothing on the agenda 15:10:01 agenda + Last Public Comments https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130827LastPublicComments/? 15:10:23 agenda + ULTIMATE !!! Survey from the WCAG2ICT Taskforce https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/UltimateWTI/? 15:10:43 agenda + Responses to Public Comments, ARIA Techniques and review of images section of WAI tutorials. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAG_Aug20_2013/ 15:11:07 q+ 15:11:14 zakim, take up item 1 15:11:14 agendum 1. "Last Public Comments https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130827LastPublicComments/?" taken up [from Joshue] 15:11:32 zakim, take up item 2 15:11:32 agendum 2. "ULTIMATE !!! Survey from the WCAG2ICT Taskforce https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/UltimateWTI/?" taken up [from Joshue] 15:11:41 q- 15:12:18 Zakim, unmute Kerstin 15:12:18 Kerstin should no longer be muted 15:12:52 Scribe: Loretta 15:12:55 Zakim, mute Kerstin 15:12:55 Kerstin should now be muted 15:12:57 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/UltimateWTI/? 15:12:58 thanks loretta 15:14:24 Items 1,2, 6,7, any objection? 15:14:39 Resolution: accept as proposed: LC-2819, LC-2820, LC-2827, Editorial Comments Plus 15:15:02 LC-2821 Set of Documents 15:15:52 q+ 15:16:06 Michael: clarification given to commenter would be useful to any reader. Suggest adding part of the response to the document itself. 15:16:18 ack korn 15:16:22 http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#keyterms 15:18:16 +1 15:19:19 "Terms defined and used in WCAG2ICT are applicable only to the interpretation of the guidance in this document. The particular definitions should not be interpreted as having applicability to situations beyond the scope of WCAG2ICT." 15:20:08 Resolution: accepted as amended 15:20:16 greggvanderheiden has joined #wai-wcag 15:20:16 +Gregg_Vanderheiden 15:20:17 LC-2822 Set of Software 15:20:42 I am here and can hear but cannot talk 15:20:55 am in faculty retreat 15:21:07 See my comment 15:21:37 +[Microsoft] 15:21:49 Zakim, Micro is Cherie 15:21:49 sorry, AWK, I do not recognize a party named 'Micro' 15:22:00 Zakim, [Micro is Cherie 15:22:00 +Cherie; got it 15:22:46 correct 15:22:50 ^accepted^C-2821 accepted 15:23:13 Resolutino: LC-2822 accepted as amended 15:23:24 Resolution: LC-2822 accepted as amended 15:23:28 did you ask me a question? 15:23:41 TOPIC: LC-2823 Conformance 15:24:03 and I changed the response to make this clear 15:24:16 Resolution: LC-2823 accepted as proposed 15:26:36 q+ 15:26:47 ack korn 15:27:08 I agree. 15:27:24 I think the editors can read it -- and if anyone else would like to 15:27:32 they would be welcome as well. 15:27:41 but no need to run back through committee 15:27:49 +1 to Josh 15:28:25 Do we need to formally close the task force? 15:28:35 or does it just sit open? 15:29:01 or maybe 3 months -- in case a question arises 15:29:05 after publication 15:29:14 no need to re-create it 15:29:15 +1 to Gregg. Suspended animation for now I think. 15:29:26 https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/edits-for-michael-post-2nd-public-draft/final-edits-to-wcag2ict 15:29:58 Special thanks is due to Peter for all the edit tracking he did 15:30:04 Resolution: WG approves WCAG2ICT, with the approved edits, for final publication as a Working Group Note. 15:30:09 we could not have done it without him 15:30:22 -Peter_Korn 15:30:48 And a note to the WCAG2ICT chairs ! 15:31:00 zakim, take up item 1 15:31:00 agendum 1. "Last Public Comments https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130827LastPublicComments/?" taken up [from Joshue] 15:31:55 Topic: LC-2791 15:32:04 Techniques for WCAG 2.0 H45 longdesc: Missing on-page description example 15:33:12 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2013JulSep/0074.html 15:33:43 regrets: Kathy_Wahlbin, James_Nurthen, Bruce_Bailey 15:33:46 rrsagent, make minutes 15:33:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC 15:33:46 +q 15:33:57 q+ 15:34:19 q- 15:34:44 David raises concern about screen readers not stopping at the end of the description. 15:35:01 ack me 15:36:00 Andrew says that the description highlights this drawback, and says that it also applies to descriptions on a separate page, e.g., some people want to put several long descriptions on the same (alternate) page. 15:36:17 zakim, queue? 15:36:17 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:36:39 Josh: can't screen reader users navigate such a page using normal navigation mechanisms like headings? 15:36:41 http://davidmacd.com/test/longdesc.html 15:37:12 Andrew: yes, but the author needs to provide that structure on the page to help the user sort out the different parts. 15:38:51 David: testing shows that AT doesn't support just using a hashtag, but requires the entire URL. 15:38:53 +q 15:38:58 ack me 15:40:06 David: if the full uri is provide, however, the page will also reload. (Note: testing on IE with JAWS) 15:40:46 korn1 has joined #wai-wcag 15:42:48 Andrew: my testing shows that just the hashtag works with Firefox but not for IE. We should update the example to use the entire uri. 15:44:32 Resolution: LC-2791 accepted as amended. 15:44:34 zakim, take up item 3 15:44:34 agendum 3. "Responses to Public Comments, ARIA Techniques and review of images section of WAI tutorials. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAG_Aug20_2013/" taken up [from 15:44:37 ... Joshue] 15:48:23 q+ 15:49:08 ack Lore 15:49:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2013May/0008.html 15:51:07 Lets look at this.. 15:55:20 http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/ 15:55:46 Need to drop in 5 mins 15:56:03 http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/complete.html#uc-levels-head 15:56:16 -Gregg_Vanderheiden 15:56:31 http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/#uc-levels-head is broken (from QuickRef) 15:56:52 The Success Criteria were assigned to one of the three levels of conformance, levels A, AA, and AAA, by the working group after taking into consideration a wide range of interacting issues. Some of the common factors evaluated when setting the level included: 16:00:35 Thank you everyone, great to meet you and I'll be on the call next week as well. Great work effort and good teamwork. Regards 16:00:47 -Alan_Smith 16:03:26 https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20120103/2828 16:08:09 https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20120103/2828 16:11:16 LC-2828 added to catch one overlooked public comment. Response drafted, but this will be left open. 16:12:18 Resolution: Work Group approves publication of updated Understanding and Techniques documents with the changes approved. 16:12:49 s/Resolution:/RESOLUTION:/ 16:13:00 Since this was not on the survey, there will also be a standing call to the mailing list for any objections to publication. 16:13:17 expiring this Friday 16:13:19 zakim, take up item 3 16:13:19 agendum 3. "Responses to Public Comments, ARIA Techniques and review of images section of WAI tutorials. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAG_Aug20_2013/" taken up [from 16:13:22 ... Joshue] 16:13:40 WCAG review of 'Headings using role="heading"' technique 16:14:15 Topic: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAG_Aug20_2013/results#x2690 'Headings using role="heading"' 16:14:51 LGR: AWK and I spoke about this, there were originally examples here that used ARIA in place of HTML headers. 16:15:03 LGR: These may set a bad example. 16:15:14 LGR: That leaves us with these kind of examples. 16:15:38 LGR: There may be a page you are trying to retrofit. 16:16:10 DMacD: The use of nested articiles in HTML is an issue, JAWS gets the correct hierarchy wrong. 16:16:23 DMacD: Gez wrote about this. 16:16:38 q+ 16:16:47 http://juicystudio.com/article/html5-outline-algorithm-jaws.php 16:17:18 ack AWK 16:17:32 Andres: can you use heading without level? 16:17:40 Josh: I guess you could. 16:18:13 Josh: if you use role heading with a level, does the AT ascribe an arbitrary level? 16:19:23 Loretta: is there a heading element with no level? I thought HTML5 used to contain this, but I haven't been tracking it. 16:19:48 David: I think the current model is that the hierarchy restarts in each container. 16:19:56 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/dom.html#heading-content 16:20:08 Loretta: Does ARIA require a level attribute? 16:20:18 Michael: Pretty sure not required, but recommended. 16:20:47 http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#heading 16:20:52 Josh: Should this technique include a note that this is mostly recommended for legacy code. 16:20:59 Loretta: I think it already does this. 16:21:56 David: Don't want to relegate it to only this use. I'm worried that it looks like there is going to be a lot of confusion about heading levels in the next few years, and the use of this attributes provides a way to clarify the level. 16:22:35 Andrew looking at ARIA spec. 16:22:36 greggvanderheiden has joined #wai-wcag 16:23:15 Josh: concerns about levels going too deep. 16:23:39 Andrew: maybe add a note about current AT really only supporting levels up to level 6. 16:23:59 Josh: would the example codify the practice when it isn't appropriate? 16:25:07 Andrew: what is appropriate all depends on accessibility support. 16:25:58 David: I think Gez's article is a really good example of another use. 16:26:47 David: there is a lot of confusion about how levels should be supported by AT. 16:27:01 q+ 16:29:00 Loretta: meta-comment about techniques. My personal opinion is that it is good to include examples that are best practices, but if we limit ourselves to only showing things we think are best practices, and reject sufficient techniques that arent't best practice, we will tie ourselves in knots. 16:29:23 Josh: Perhaps we need to add discussion to accessibility support to this technique. 16:32:11 Action: David to work on adding his additional knowledge about uses of level to this technique. 16:32:11 'David' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., dmacdona, dtodd2). 16:32:19 q- 16:32:56 Action: dmacdona to work on adding his additional knowledge about uses of level to this technique. 16:32:56 Created ACTION-213 - Work on adding his additional knowledge about uses of level to this technique. [on David MacDonald - due 2013-09-03]. 16:33:34 -Cherie 16:33:37 -Joshue 16:33:39 bye 16:33:49 -Kerstin 16:34:28 q+ 16:34:34 q+ 16:35:21 ack m 16:36:17 ack l 16:37:21 -Marc_Johlic 16:37:22 -Michael_Cooper 16:37:22 -David_MacDonald 16:37:24 -Loretta 16:37:26 -AWK 16:37:28 WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended 16:37:28 Attendees were David_MacDonald, +1.704.877.aaaa, Joshue, Alan_Smith, Loretta, AWK, Peter_Korn, Marc_Johlic, Michael_Cooper, Kerstin, Gregg_Vanderheiden, [Microsoft], Cherie 16:37:49 rrsagent, create minutes 16:37:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-wai-wcag-minutes.html Loretta 16:38:24 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 16:38:51 zakim, please part 16:38:51 Zakim has left #wai-wcag 16:38:58 rrsagent, please part 16:38:58 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-wai-wcag-actions.rdf : 16:38:58 ACTION: David to work on adding his additional knowledge about uses of level to this technique. [1] 16:38:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-wai-wcag-irc#T16-32-11 16:38:58 ACTION: dmacdona to work on adding his additional knowledge about uses of level to this technique. [2] 16:38:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-wai-wcag-irc#T16-32-56