14:02:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
14:02:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-dpub-irc
14:02:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:02:49 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub
14:02:51 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
14:02:51 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 58 minutes
14:02:52 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:02:52 <trackbot> Date: 27 August 2013
14:36:33 <karen_> karen_ has joined #dpub
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14:55:57 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
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14:56:46 <tzviya> rrsagent, make records public
14:56:59 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #dpub
14:57:36 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM has now started
14:57:43 <Zakim> +Tsviya
14:57:51 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:57:51 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:57:52 <Zakim> +azaroth
14:57:53 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:58:12 <Bert> Bert has joined #dpub
14:58:21 <tzviya> Scribe: <tzviya>
14:58:29 <ivan> scribe: tzviya
14:58:37 <Zakim> +mgylling
14:58:50 <mgylling> regrets: George Kerscher, Madi Solomon
14:59:02 <duga> duga has joined #dpub
14:59:09 <Vlad> Vlad has joined #dpub
15:00:14 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:00:14 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:00:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
15:00:38 <Zakim> +duga
15:00:55 <Zakim> +Bert
15:00:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:01:01 <Zakim> +Vlad
15:01:02 <fjh> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:01:02 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
15:01:08 <fjh> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
15:01:45 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf
15:02:03 <Zakim> +JeanKaplansky
15:02:26 <Zakim> +plinss
15:02:33 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers
15:02:42 <Zakim> + +1.248.699.aaaa
15:02:46 <JeanKaplansky> JeanKaplansky has joined #dpub
15:03:11 <Zakim> +Sharad
15:03:15 <mgylling> Zakim, aaaa is Bernard
15:03:15 <Zakim> +Bernard; got it
15:03:16 <ivan> Guest: Jean (JeanKaplansky) Kaplansky, Aptara
15:04:08 <karen_> Guest: Bernard Grunow, Cengage Learning
15:04:35 <tzviya> Markus: opens meeting
15:04:37 <Sharad> Sharad has joined #dpub
15:04:41 <karen_> Vlad is AC rep from Monotype
15:04:53 <tzviya> vladimir: from Monotype
15:05:32 <tzviya> ...provides software solutions for customers, e-tech and digital solutions
15:05:48 <tzviya> ...member of W3C and fonts WG
15:05:51 <ivan> Guest: Bill (Bill_Kasdorf) Kasdorf
15:06:11 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:06:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tsviya, azaroth, Ivan (muted), mgylling, duga, Bert, fjh, Vlad, plinss, Bill_Kasdorf, JeanKaplansky, Karen_Myers, Bernard, Sharad
15:06:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see Sharad, JeanKaplansky, Bill_Kasdorf, Vlad, duga, Bert, azaroth, mgylling, tzviya, fjh, karen_, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot, plinss, sandro
15:06:35 <tzviya> Bernard from Cengage, an educational company, dir. of systems analysis
15:08:09 <mgylling> prev weeks minutes: https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dpub/2013-08-20
15:08:35 <Vlad> s/e-tech/e-text/
15:08:43 <tzviya> Markus: approval of last week's minutesL approved
15:09:02 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: meeting agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013Aug/0018.html
15:09:43 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory Use case directory
15:10:04 <tzviya> makrus: all members of group are free to add use cases to directory
15:10:16 <ivan> s/makrus/markus/
15:10:35 <tzviya> ...we have a few people who are responsible for specific areas of use cases
15:10:56 <tzviya> ...Jean oversees MathML, Rob oversees annotations
15:11:09 <tzviya> ...Markus is looking for a lead on pagination
15:11:42 <tzviya> ...our structure is still in beta. We will use this for about 1 month. If there is something that is annoying, point it out
15:11:58 <Bernard> Bernard has joined #dpub
15:12:27 <tzviya> ...we have 1-2 new faces weekly. Growing steadily
15:12:36 <ivan> Guest: Bernard (Bernard) Grunow, Cengage Learning
15:12:57 <tzviya> ...scribing. This week had 2 volunteers. So, we will stick with volunteers for now
15:13:28 <tzviya> ...everyone is asked to scribe from time to time
15:13:49 <tzviya> ...reminder of TPAC meeting. Register if going. Visas are often needed
15:14:04 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
15:14:04 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
15:14:32 <tzviya> Karen: main thing for TPAC: register and VISA letter can take time. Contact Karen with questions
15:15:01 <ivan> Topic: Use Cases
15:15:12 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory Use case directory
15:15:13 <tzviya> Markus; move on to wiki activities http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory
15:15:29 <ivan> s/Markus;/Markus:/
15:15:58 <tzviya> Markus: structure of use case directory is also somewhat arbitrary, expect it to change later on
15:16:28 <tzviya> ...two initial use cases from naka-tobira needs input
15:16:36 <tzviya> ...and transclusion
15:16:56 <tzviya> ...both are still state "new" and no need to change yet
15:17:33 <tzviya> ...we will probably leave use cases as "new" until we have a large sample and blessing from larger group
15:17:44 <tzviya> ...new use cases on math from jean
15:17:59 <ivan> Subtopic: Math use cases
15:18:05 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/MathML_UC Math Use cases
15:18:39 <tzviya> Jean: there are 2 different kinds of mathML - content-based and presentation-based MathML
15:19:10 <tzviya> ...most browsers have taken a stab at presentation-based MathML. It is easier.
15:19:44 <tzviya> ...We talk of separation of content and presentation. In math, presentation can change meaning of content.
15:20:06 <tzviya> ...There needs to be a way to render MathML in general. Lack of native support in web engines.
15:20:50 <tzviya> ...second use case http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/MathML_UC#MathML_2 is for dynamic use of math
15:21:43 <tzviya> ...this is done with presentational MathML. user interacts with math. It is only when get to very high level math that require content MathML
15:22:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:22:11 <Bert> q+ to mention (1) Math WG is interested in case 2, and (2) ask how case 3 would be authored.
15:22:40 <tzviya> .....3rd case http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/MathML_UC#MathML_3 involves using MathML with interactivity that uses results
15:23:07 <tzviya> ,,,connects computational results of research outside of the publication
15:23:17 <ivan> s/,,,/.../
15:23:33 <tzviya> ...these use cases were written by Peter Krautzberger of MathJax javascript library
15:23:35 <ivan> q?
15:23:58 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:25:59 <tzviya> Bill: a common use case: publisher input variables on graph, and changes visual display. Does this require content MathML or is presentational OK?
15:26:15 <mgylling> ack Bert
15:26:15 <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to mention (1) Math WG is interested in case 2, and (2) ask how case 3 would be authored.
15:26:23 <tzviya> Jean: to start with, presentational may be OK. The goal is to get something supported
15:26:59 <tzviya> Bert: I am on Math WG. Use case 2 is already in progress in Math WG
15:27:11 <Zakim> -duga
15:27:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:27:44 <tzviya> ...question about use case 3 - who will author this? who will add semantic part?
15:27:58 <Zakim> +duga
15:28:13 <tzviya> Jean: I can't say. The authoring tools that exist are designscience, LaTeX, and something else
15:29:22 <tzviya> ...Authoring tools are behind the scene. This needs to be part of use case. Will talk to Peter and bring back to Math WG
15:29:28 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:30:14 <tzviya> Bill: Scholarly publishing often asks how researchers are using web to do their work and how they publish their work
15:31:24 <tzviya> ...consider whether mathematicians are doing the work or publishing it
15:32:00 <tzviya> Jean: there is a distinction. That is use case 3 - the interactive book.
15:32:21 <tzviya> ...whether this gains traction remains to be seen, but it is a use case
15:33:27 <tzviya> Markus: can we make use case 2 more specific in terms of interacting with math?
15:34:21 <tzviya> ...we expect to have many use cases of interaction. This may benefit from having specialized examples.
15:34:33 <tzviya> ...How does this interact with math?
15:34:46 <tzviya> Jean: will talk to Peter about adding examples.
15:34:47 <ivan> q+
15:34:54 <mgylling> ack ivan
15:35:49 <tzviya> Ivan: general question: Have heard that current status of MathML implementation is bad.
15:36:13 <tzviya> ...what kind of additional documentation would be helpful to publishing industry?
15:36:26 <tzviya> ...what would improve the state of MathML support?
15:36:40 <tzviya> Jean: there have been some one on one discussions
15:36:54 <tzviya> ...Peter K and Jean will do a call to action
15:37:29 <tzviya> for publishers to adequately specify what their needs are for browser and reading system vendors
15:37:54 <tzviya> s/for/...for
15:38:32 <tzviya> Bert: this is a regular topic for Math WG as well
15:39:09 <tzviya> ...Firefox tries to do the right thing. Chrome had some security issues, so shut it off, probably need some engineering help
15:39:16 <tzviya> ...if have ideas, let Bert know
15:39:48 <karen_> +1 Jean
15:39:54 <ivan> Subtopic: book semantics
15:40:11 <azaroth> scribe: azaroth
15:40:40 <azaroth> Tzviya:  I mentioned this briefly, in HTML structural semantics don't rewflect the issues we have.  H1 is the highest structure, and in books that's nested in many other levels
15:40:59 <azaroth> ... typically there is part or chapter first, so it would be good to have structure that reflects part and chapter before H1
15:41:18 <azaroth> ... Chapter is typically labeled H1 and h1 in print would be h2, making it confusing or it gets tagged incorrectly
15:41:25 <ivan> q+
15:41:29 <azaroth> ... the highest level gets a div, and then h1 so it's not correct
15:41:38 <mgylling> ack ivan
15:42:07 <azaroth> Ivan: To be technical, there is something called a role attribute which is defined and something HTML5 acks as a possible attribute even if not in the WG
15:42:39 <azaroth> ... at first glance this attribute could be used for that, question to Tzviya if that is correct.  It can be put on any element so can give the right semantics
15:43:10 <azaroth> ... the problem with this, and where this group may come up with requirements, at the moment the way that html5 defines the possible values that can be used for role is fairly restrictive
15:43:18 <azaroth> Markus: it's only aria
15:43:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:43:46 <azaroth> Ivan:  Where we would go with the requirement would be to have some sort of mechanism whereby the allowed values could be extended in view of this requirement
15:43:55 <azaroth> ... that might be one way of solving the issue, if I understand
15:44:07 <azaroth> Tzviya:  I think roles could be appropriate if able to be extended
15:44:24 <azaroth> Markus:  We just need an agreement on what to use. Could be rdfa or microdata etc. At the moment a big ?
15:44:33 <azaroth> Ivan: FOr other reasons rdfa not appropriate
15:44:43 <azaroth> Markus:  No need to discuss solutions, just to make sure use case is clear
15:44:50 <azaroth> ... Need to answer the question why you want to do this
15:45:19 <azaroth> ... GOtten that back from html WG before -- need to understand why you want to do this, so need to document extra reasons
15:45:27 <mgylling> q?
15:45:33 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:45:33 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:45:53 <azaroth> Bill_Kasdorf:  Quick comment -- one side is the semantic, the other side is the implied structure of the document starting with H1
15:46:11 <azaroth> ... as pointed out publishers want to define structure outside of the H* structure.  Not just semantic.
15:46:26 <azaroth> Markus:  Gets interesting quickly, eg glossaries and dictionaries and relations that have meaning
15:46:38 <azaroth> ... descendants can have implied or explicit semantics depending on their parents.
15:47:10 <azaroth> ... Don't think it's a fair request to expect html5/svg to incorporate domain specific rules natively Need to have extensibility independent of the core specs
15:47:23 <azaroth> ... No one else on queue, so no more questions?
15:47:35 <Zakim> -duga
15:47:49 <azaroth> ... Again, request to update, and willing to work with you on it.
15:48:02 <ivan> scribe: tzviya
15:48:18 <ivan> Subtopic: social reading
15:48:42 <tzviya> Rob: social reading use cases
15:48:55 <Zakim> +duga
15:49:07 <tzviya> .....four basic and simple use cases
15:49:30 <tzviya> ... http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Anno_Basic_1 a simple comment made by a user
15:50:00 <tzviya> ...may wish to make the comment public
15:50:09 <tzviya> comments are mostly for identity
15:50:34 <tzviya> ...use case 2 http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Anno_Basic_2 for tagging "this is mine"
15:51:07 <tzviya> ... use case 3 structured comment, review for quality
15:51:49 <ivan> q+
15:52:02 <tzviya> ... use case 4 - private comment, not for public platform but does need to go from one device to another
15:52:09 <fjh> q+
15:52:12 <tzviya> ...such as from my nook to my ipadf
15:52:22 <mgylling> ack ivan
15:52:34 <tzviya> s/ipadf/ipad
15:52:46 <Zakim> -JeanKaplansky
15:53:06 <tzviya> ivan: refer only to open annotations
15:53:42 <tzviya> ...open annotations does not define all the technical mechanisms for porting data (for example)
15:54:11 <tzviya> ...something like that is probably necessary.
15:54:36 <tzviya> ...this requirement goes way beyond OA and may involve many other groups
15:55:05 <tzviya> Rob: agreed. Relevant groups need to be filled out. The list could be very long
15:55:32 <tzviya> ...Could pull in SVG and media fragments or assume by reference
15:56:31 <tzviya> Ivan: we should take one of simpler use cases and people who have worked on this should do thought experiment to determine what is needed
15:56:55 <mgylling> ack fjh
15:57:45 <tzviya> Frederick: we need to understand that some things are external.
15:58:15 <tzviya> ...It would help use cases to understand what has been done already and what needs to be done.
15:58:36 <tzviya> ...we need to narrow scope because this is such a broad area
15:59:01 <tzviya> Rob: OA group has some implementation experience.
15:59:26 <tzviya> ...Scope question - are we talking about annotating EPUB or web?
15:59:45 <tzviya> ...being more specific would be helpful
16:00:22 <fjh> +1 to considering web as part of the scope
16:00:31 <tzviya> ...internal/external question - approach in dpub should not be just internal to publication, but approach whole web (IMO)
16:00:56 <tzviya> markus: agreed. Approach the whole web. We are looking to bridge the gap
16:01:01 <azaroth> +1 to bridging
16:01:27 <tzviya> Markus: ask Rob to continue adding use cases
16:01:49 <ivan> Topic: future issues
16:01:59 <Zakim> -duga
16:02:04 <Zakim> -fjh
16:02:06 <tzviya> ...if have use cases, talk to Markus or Madi
16:02:07 <Zakim> -azaroth
16:02:09 <Zakim> -Bernard
16:02:11 <Zakim> -plinss
16:02:16 <karen_> meeting adjourned
16:02:17 <Zakim> -Vlad
16:02:21 <karen_> +1 Tzviya
16:02:26 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
16:02:28 <Zakim> -Tsviya
16:02:29 <Zakim> -Bert
16:02:30 <Zakim> -mgylling
16:02:33 <karen_> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-dpub-minutes.html karen_
16:02:33 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:02:46 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
16:02:50 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:02:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sharad
16:02:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bernard, Sharad, Bert, azaroth, mgylling, tzviya, fjh, karen_, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot, plinss, sandro
16:03:28 <ivan> trackbot, stop telcon
16:03:28 <trackbot> Sorry, ivan, I don't understand 'trackbot, stop telcon'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
16:03:37 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
16:03:37 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:03:37 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Tsviya, azaroth, Ivan, mgylling, duga, Bert, Vlad, fjh, Bill_Kasdorf, JeanKaplansky, plinss, Karen_Myers, +1.248.699.aaaa, Sharad, Bernard
16:03:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-dpub-minutes.html trackbot
16:03:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:03:46 <RRSAgent> I see no action items