20:30:38 RRSAgent has joined #svg 20:30:38 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/22-svg-irc 20:30:40 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:30:40 Zakim has joined #svg 20:30:42 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 20:30:42 ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM scheduled to start now 20:30:43 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 20:30:43 Date: 22 August 2013 20:31:18 GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM has now started 20:31:25 +jimsch 20:31:57 Zakim: +jimsch is me 20:32:14 +[IPcaller] 20:32:29 +krit 20:32:35 krit1 has joined #svg 20:33:32 +Doug_Schepers 20:34:11 +[IPcaller.a] 20:34:28 birtles has joined #svg 20:34:44 Zakim: [IP is me 20:34:48 Zakim, jimsch is really ed 20:34:48 +ed; got it 20:34:57 Zakim, [IP is me 20:34:57 sorry, birtles, I do not recognize a party named '[IP' 20:35:30 Zakim, who is on the call? 20:35:30 On the phone I see ed, [IPcaller], krit, Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller.a] 20:35:36 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/ 20:35:40 Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me 20:35:40 +birtles; got it 20:35:45 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/0060.html 20:35:49 Chair: Cameron 20:35:51 Regrets: Chris 20:36:18 Zakim, [ is me 20:36:18 +heycam; got it 20:37:26 scribeNick: ed 20:37:48 topic: Review of comments on css3-fonts 20:37:58 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Review_comments_on_css-fonts-3_2013-07-11 20:38:13 CM: csswg had requested our comments on css3 fonts, due today 20:38:35 ... put together chris and my comments on that wikipage 20:38:52 +Rich 20:38:59 ... first, have tests for features, and to convert them to svg tests 20:39:33 ... second, svg in opentype, selecting colors from the font or from outside, just to keep this in mind for next level of spec 20:39:42 ... the rest seems good to me 20:39:58 +??P11 20:40:00 +nikos 20:40:07 krit1, BB: sounds good 20:40:12 +1 20:40:19 ThomasSmailus has joined #svg 20:40:20 CM: ok, if everyone is happy then I'll send our comments 20:40:43 zakim, +?? is me 20:40:43 sorry, Tav, I do not recognize a party named '+??' 20:40:51 + +1.425.373.aaaa 20:41:07 topic: css3 cascade review 20:41:09 zakim, ?? is me 20:41:09 +Tav; got it 20:41:22 krit1: no incompat to svg spec 20:42:08 ... scoped styles introduced in html5, and css defines how they interact with cascades... would be nice to add to svg moving forward 20:42:24 ... but no specific comments on css3 cascade spec from the svg POV 20:42:27 -nikos 20:42:42 CM: will you send a mail to www-style say that we're happy with it? 20:42:42 +nikos 20:42:47 krit1: sure 20:43:14 topic: Animation of CSS Filter Functions with url() function 20:43:32 krit1: just added filter functions, can interpolate as long as the types match 20:44:02 ... shorter list can be interpolated with longer lists by appending to the end of the shorter list 20:44:21 ... question is: can we tolerate a url but interpolate things around the url()? 20:45:26 ... 20:45:41 CM: follow same rules as ...? 20:46:01 krit1: similar to transforms interpolation, falls back to full interpolation of matrices 20:46:12 ... but something like that isn't possible with filter functions 20:46:28 ... some have just length values which are easy to interpolate 20:46:54 CM: we might get the same problem with marker patterns too, interpolating between url and some values 20:47:11 krit1: yes, it would be the same problem 20:47:32 CM: with SMIL, does it switch half-way through? 20:47:47 krit1: you have a timing function, f(t) 20:47:59 ... the function defines if you should jump or not 20:48:10 -Doug_Schepers 20:48:12 BB: once you swithc to discrete you ignore 20:48:19 ... any keysplines 20:48:31 CM: if you have calcmode something else, can you interpolate? 20:49:02 ... are we the same as CSS animation? 20:49:08 krit1: SMIL animation is different 20:49:17 BB: the models are compatible 20:49:35 krit1: both can be done with the same timing model 20:49:50 +Doug_Schepers 20:50:03 BB: in svg the output doesn't take keysplines into acconut in discrete mode, but in css it does 20:50:23 krit1: we have a resoltuon in the csswg about this, but it hasn't been included in the specs yet 20:50:37 ... for properties that have enums 20:50:49 CM: in the future the spec will say it does the switching? 20:50:55 krit1: yes 20:51:15 CM: in that case it should be fine to let filters behave like that too 20:51:43 CM: can you interpolate between a longer and a short list if they have the same types? 20:51:46 krit1: yes 20:51:59 ... it's specified how that should work 20:52:09 CM: ok, happy with that then 20:52:15 krit1: what do others think? 20:52:22 DS: sounds fine 20:53:20 RESOLUTION: url on filter property can be interpolated with discrete animations 20:53:46 topic: SMIL animations on CSS filter property and filter functions 20:54:11 krit1: when you look at svg, we had similar bugreports in mozilla 20:54:16 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/animate.html 20:54:33 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/animate.html#AnimationAttributesAndProperties 20:54:34 ... if we look 19.17 20:54:39 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/animate.html#InterfaceTimeEvent 20:55:08 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/animate.html#AnimationAttributesAndProperties 20:55:11 ... sorry, 19.2.17 20:55:25 ... there you have the datatypes that can be animated 20:55:33 ... we don't have filter functons there 20:55:50 ... SMIL animations can interpolate same as css animations 20:56:12 CM: as david baron suggested, filter spec should say how to interpolate 20:56:28 ... not sure what to say in svg spec itself 20:56:44 ... will work how that should look 20:57:08 krit1: just reference the filter effects (how they can be animated) 20:57:26 CM: we wouldn't have to refer to filters from svg 20:57:43 krit1: but you have to find all specs to find the animatable types 20:58:02 CM: but then you have to update two specs and keep them in sync 20:58:22 DS: question, about timelines, brian you'd be the one to put new animations in svg? 20:58:41 ... do you feel like it's an svg2 thing, or an svg3? or a module? 20:58:56 BB: prefer a module, don't want to hold up the svg2 spe 20:59:41 DS: what kind of timeframe do you have for mapping the svg animations to the new animation model? 20:59:46 BB: within the next year 21:00:05 DS: would be good to have something to review, in parallell with svg2 being finalized 21:00:21 ... just to let ppl know that declarative animations aren't dead 21:00:46 ... we've talked about letting svg2 be the core spec, and letting svg2.1 be the svg spec + some modules 21:01:03 ... animations might fit in there pretty well, your timeframe seems reasonable 21:01:30 tav: how are you supposed to animate a 'width' in the future? 21:01:45 BB: the proposal is to promote that to a property, and to animate that 21:02:02 ... focused on properties 21:02:19 ... so try to promote most things to properties, where it makes sense 21:03:13 krit1: the table with types, should I add that to the filter spec? 21:03:21 CM: yes, seems reasonable 21:03:25 s/CM/BB/ 21:03:54 ACTION: krit to add filter function data type for declarative animations (to the filter effects spec) 21:03:55 Created ACTION-3519 - Add filter function data type for declarative animations (to the filter effects spec) [on Dirk Schulze - due 2013-08-29]. 21:04:24 krit1: are filter functions additive? and can they be paced animations? 21:04:38 Tav: don't understand the second one 21:04:59 CM: intrinsic notion of ... between values, constant velocity 21:05:11 ... or speed 21:05:21 krit1: would be a timing function, think it's keypoints, but not sure 21:05:33 CM: yeah, duistance between the values 21:06:06 BB: not sure theres a disctance between filter values, if there's not then there's no reason to do paced 21:06:24 krit1: length and ... can both be paced 21:06:32 CM: if you have the same types then yes 21:07:06 ... apart from transforms, color aslo has interesting distance type 21:07:07 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/animate.html#complexDistances 21:07:25 ... there are the definitions for hte diff data types 21:07:34 ... that DOH wanted 21:07:49 DS: did we ever anticipate animating between not having a filter to having a filter? 21:07:52 s/CM: if you have/BB: if you have/ 21:08:13 CM: think that was covered with animating between 'none' and some other values, and dirk said it would work 21:08:31 DS: does it only work fro url filters, or jst shorthand filters? 21:08:36 krit1: just shorthands 21:09:43 DS: animating between my own drop shadow and my own blur, and transitions from regular HSL to sepia 21:10:03 krit1: not really possible, unless you have custom filters, with custom variables that you can animate 21:10:11 ... svg parameters might let you do that too 21:10:40 DS: got distracted when svg params seemed similar to css variables 21:11:00 ... if we want to do something with svgparams we should go back and look at use-cases 21:11:14 krit1: ok, but it's a different discussion 21:11:36 BB: back to additive and paced, makes sense to be both 21:12:06 CM: when it makes sense to be additive, would it add or multply? 21:12:14 krit1: you'd look at the distance functions 21:12:25 ... you'd look at the two filter functions 21:12:43 CM: right, but for adding, it's smetimes different how things are additive 21:13:13 ... like scale and translate, postmultiply and add 21:13:38 ... so maybe we should look at where it makes sense to do what and in which contexts, for filter functions 21:13:53 krit1: maybe, I have no idea what would make sense here 21:14:19 CM: having animations for filters is similar to transforms where you want to concatenate two lists, for additive 21:14:37 BB: hmm, yeah, might make sense 21:14:54 CM: what's the diff between paced and additive? 21:15:01 krit1: the distance function 21:15:14 CM: don't think additive needs the distanec function 21:15:19 ... don't think that's necessary 21:15:35 BB: yeah, distance is only used when doing paced animation 21:15:55 krit1: not sure how ... could look like 21:16:13 CM: should I write up how I think it should work, and send to list? 21:16:18 krit1: yeah, sure 21:17:04 ACTION: heycam to write up how additive animations should work on filter functions, and send to www-svg 21:17:04 Created ACTION-3520 - Write up how additive animations should work on filter functions, and send to www-svg [on Cameron McCormack - due 2013-08-29]. 21:17:33 topic: Review request on SVG 1.1 SVG filters 21:18:59 krit1: I'm cleaning up the filter functions 21:19:37 ... if anyone have some suggestions for how to write descriptions of filter functions in a more clear way please send to the public mailinglist 21:20:05 CM: yes, hard to understand what the filter functions do by looking at the algorithm code in the spec 21:20:28 ... what stage is the filter spec atm? 21:20:38 krit1: i think we published second WD 21:21:11 CM: should we not review the spec as it is right now? 21:21:18 krit1: not until tomorrow at least 21:21:25 ... i'll ping you next week 21:21:49 ... by request on peter linss I have some more issues that i'll bring up next week 21:22:02 topic: Should color values in all our specs be between 0.255 or 0..1? 21:22:29 krit1: svg filters defntions not always clear which range we use 21:23:10 Tav: one problem with 255 is that you can't have half 21:23:24 DS: anyone disagree with 0..1 is the better way? 21:23:50 Tav: maybe backwards compat? 21:24:18 DS: it's only a spec-level change, shouldnt affect the implementations 21:25:14 tav: how do we deal with displacement map, it's to 0..255, right? 21:25:35 CM: we're only talking about the spec definitions, right? 21:25:46 DS: yes, but in authoring practice 21:25:59 ... but we should resolve on using 0..1 for colors 21:26:11 ... and then we should look at where we use 0.255 in the spec 21:26:38 tav: would like the lighting filters, where you have discontinuities, produces steps 21:26:43 ... you get a bump 21:26:55 ... you get angles in your bump maps 21:27:14 DS: we could use a functions, instead of rgb we could use hsl, or some value 21:27:25 tav: would like to see it addressed at some point 21:27:35 DS: put forward a proposal? 21:28:09 tav: red value for x direciton, blue for y direction, but you define the bumps in terms of color 21:28:25 ... 21:28:36 http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Filters-Lighting.html 21:28:50 DS: maybe we should first have a proposal? 21:29:27 tav: you can see the effects on that page 21:29:39 krit1: do you want the artifacts, or smooth? 21:29:41 tav: smooth 21:29:54 ... you define the map as a png or a bitmap or whatever 21:30:19 CM: the intermediate thing you render to, are you allowed to have something more precise that you input to the lighting filter 21:30:22 tav: right 21:30:43 CM: in our internal operations in the spec we should use 0..1, correct? 21:30:46 all: yes 21:31:34 RESOLUTION: we should always use 0..1 for color values in svg specifications 21:31:52 s/sould/must/ 21:32:03 s/should/must/ 21:32:10 CM: this comes up in filter primitive definitions? 21:32:22 krit1: would be good to specify in the beginning 21:32:56 - +1.425.373.aaaa 21:33:00 -heycam 21:33:01 -krit 21:33:01 -birtles 21:33:05 -ed 21:33:07 -Tav 21:33:16 -nikos 21:37:34 trackbot, end telcon 21:37:34 Zakim, list attendees 21:37:34 As of this point the attendees have been [IPcaller], krit, Doug_Schepers, ed, birtles, heycam, Rich, nikos, +1.425.373.aaaa, Tav 21:37:42 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 21:37:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/22-svg-minutes.html trackbot 21:37:43 RRSAgent, bye 21:37:43 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/22-svg-actions.rdf : 21:37:43 ACTION: krit to add filter function data type for declarative animations (to the filter effects spec) [1] 21:37:43 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/22-svg-irc#T21-03-54 21:37:43 ACTION: heycam to write up how additive animations should work on filter functions, and send to www-svg [2] 21:37:43 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/22-svg-irc#T21-17-04