13:30:27 RRSAgent has joined #dap 13:30:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/21-dap-irc 13:30:29 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:30:29 Zakim has joined #dap 13:30:31 Zakim, this will be DAP 13:30:31 ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 30 minutes 13:30:32 Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference 13:30:32 Date: 21 August 2013 13:31:06 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/0046.html 13:31:21 fjh has changed the topic to: dap 3279; agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/0046.html 13:31:37 Chair: Frederick_Hirsch 13:31:51 Present+ Frederick_Hirsch 13:32:06 Regrets+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux 13:32:37 Topic: Welcome, agenda review, scribe selection, announcements 13:56:42 UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started 13:56:49 +Josh_Soref 13:58:06 +[IPcaller] 13:58:13 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 13:58:13 +fjh; got it 13:58:41 scribenick: fjh 14:00:15 Reminder: No DAP F2F at TPAC. 14:00:15 Publishing moratoria (26 Aug, 11 Nov, 18 Dec) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2013JulSep/0029 14:00:16 Reminder (28 Aug deadline): meeting time proposal: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-device-apis/2013Aug/0000.html 14:00:22 + +1.858.750.aaaa 14:00:32 +??P26 14:00:35 zakim, where is 858? 14:00:35 North American dialing code 1.858 is California 14:00:45 gmandyam has joined #dap 14:00:53 zakim, aaaa is gmandyam 14:00:53 +gmandyam; got it 14:01:09 Cathy has joined #dap 14:01:22 -gmandyam 14:01:31 Present+ Rich_Tibbett, Cathy_Chan, Giri_Mandyam 14:01:36 Present+ Josh_Soref 14:01:44 zakim, who is here? 14:01:44 On the phone I see Josh_Soref, fjh, richt 14:01:46 On IRC I see Cathy, gmandyam, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, tobie, richt, anssik, Josh_Soref, trackbot, mounir, slightlyoff 14:02:13 +gmandyam 14:04:13 fjh: if you are attending TPAC, please consider attending the Media Capture TF meeting, as they would like attendance from members of DAP 14:04:32 many of those on the call indicated they are attending TPAC 14:04:44 +Cathy 14:04:45 fjh: please let the TF know you plan to attend, perhaps by sending mail to the TF public list 14:05:20 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 14:07:41 please note meeting time proposal: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-device-apis/2013Aug/0000.html 14:08:08 fjh: and respond if any issue, otherwise we will shift to Thursdays at same time starting 12 Sept (unless objection heard on the list) 14:08:17 Topic: Minutes approval 14:08:23 Approve minutes from 14 August 2013 14:08:24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/att-0027/minutes-2013-08-14.html 14:08:29 RESOLUTION: Minutes from 14 August 2013 are approved 14:08:49 Topic: Network Discovery 14:10:06 fjh: additional comment, Cathy: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/0028.html 14:10:09 richt: some of the issues can be closed 14:11:01 ISSUE-129? 14:11:01 ISSUE-129 -- Simplify Network Service Discovery API -- open 14:11:01 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/129 14:11:15 ISSUE-130? 14:11:15 ISSUE-130 -- Enable variety of protocols (e.g. UPnP, Bonour) with protocol independent developer code -- open 14:11:15 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/130 14:11:34 ISSUE-129, we talked about this at some length in a previous conf call: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/att-0002/minutes-2013-07-24.html#item03 14:12:02 fjh: I think we need to seriously consider extension points, pulling Dial out etc 14:14:04 +??P9 14:14:08 zakim, ??P9 is me 14:14:08 +anssik; got it 14:14:22 cathy: this is a separate issue 14:14:34 richt: these two should be closed 14:15:55 richt: re ISSUE-129 jean claude has different model in mind, specification allows different interaction mechanisms, levels so events allow different models 14:16:58 Regarding ISSUE-129, JCD is looking at this from one implementation perspective: return zero services then use the onserviceavailable event to then re-call getNetworkServices.... 14:17:21 ACTION: fjh to close ISSUE-129 and ISSUE-130 14:17:22 Created ACTION-651 - Close issue-129 and issue-130 [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2013-08-28]. 14:17:23 a user agent MAY return 1 or more services on the first call, making the onserviceavailable event useful for monitoring changes on the network. 14:17:33 Allowing that kind of flexibility is good. 14:17:49 Therefore we don't want to change the specification as suggested in ISSUE-129. 14:18:20 we also discussed this in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/att-0002/minutes-2013-07-24.html#item03 14:18:37 ISSUE-130: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/att-0002/minutes-2013-07-24.html#item05 14:18:37 Notes added to ISSUE-130 Enable variety of protocols (e.g. UPnP, Bonour) with protocol independent developer code. 14:19:29 richt: sent mail to list, introduces more problems to do this, especially since no commonality among the various protocols 14:19:56 +1 on closing ISSUE-129 and ISSUE-130 14:20:06 richt: so that proposal is not mature 14:20:06 close ISSUE-129 14:20:06 Closed ISSUE-129. 14:20:08 close ISSUE-130 14:20:08 Closed ISSUE-130. 14:20:17 close ACTION-651 14:20:17 Closed ACTION-651. 14:20:38 ISSUE-131? 14:20:38 ISSUE-131 -- Support UPnP device discovery by Device Type? -- open 14:20:38 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/131 14:21:04 FYI, my email to the list RE: ISSUE-130 is @ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Jul/0032.html 14:21:42 cathy: still open, Rich noted want to be able to group by device not device type, agree with this, but need to work through the details 14:21:50 FYI, response to ISSUE-131: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Jul/0034.html 14:21:57 cathy: up to UA to group by device, but what if UA does not do grouping 14:22:13 cathy: how can UA handle permissions in that case 14:22:39 cathy: I am working on defining the issue, then we can consider a proposal 14:23:01 ISSUE-132? 14:23:01 ISSUE-132 -- Announce a webapp as a Network Services Discovery -- open 14:23:01 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/132 14:23:48 fjh: this is a separate issue, announcing self on network 14:24:04 cathy: yes, agreed that this could be a separate spec at some point if needed, so can close 14:24:16 ISSUE-132: WG agreed that this could be a separate spec at some point if needed 14:24:16 Notes added to ISSUE-132 Announce a webapp as a Network Services Discovery. 14:24:20 close ISSUE-132 14:24:20 Closed ISSUE-132. 14:24:29 ISSUE-133? 14:24:29 ISSUE-133 -- Fix UPnP events subscription and unsubscription -- open 14:24:29 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/133 14:25:07 cathy: came up much earlier comments, UPnP event subscription issue 14:25:30 cathy: spec has some bugs, so needs to be cleaned up, processing model is currently unclear, so the spec needs revision 14:25:46 cathy: jean claude raised issue as to why we do this at all 14:26:10 rich: these are good and helpful comments, need to review 14:26:26 richt: should we be handling event subscriptions is an issue, have heard question from others 14:26:33 s/rich:/richt:/ 14:26:46 richt: it is in there so we can get pushed messages 14:26:57 richt: it is quite useful 14:27:43 richt: do we need it in the spec, maybe we don't , but it is there to have bi-directional communication channel and to allow publish subscribe, not offered by browsers 14:28:27 richt: it is a UPnP only feature, so for that reason it might make sense to remove 14:28:44 fjh: is this a feature we need, is it nice to have but not needed? 14:29:01 richt: removing it would remove capability from UPnP services 14:29:12 richt: fixing it would be significant work 14:30:07 fjh: I'm wondering if it makes sense to remove, to err on the side of simplicity, simplify testing etc 14:30:27 fjh: maybe send message saying will remove see who complains 14:30:49 cathy: goal was to have full UPnP experience, if removed, can web application still accomplish this 14:31:02 richt: maybe could accomplish in other more modular way 14:31:14 richt: like idea of keeping it simple 14:31:31 richt: there may be other places in platform to solve it in better 14:32:22 fjh: perhaps remove, simplify testing 14:32:31 richt: not much coupling since specific to UPnP 14:33:20 richt: will try to fix ISSUE-133 before we publish WD 14:33:33 ISSUE-134? 14:33:33 ISSUE-134 -- Rename NetworkServices and NetworkService events -- open 14:33:33 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/134 14:34:14 cathy: suggestion to rename events, proposal in ISSUE 14:34:29 fjh: makes sense to me 14:34:33 richt: makes sense to me 14:34:45 richt: will make this change 14:34:58 ISSUE-135? 14:34:58 ISSUE-135 -- Add security and privacy considerations section -- open 14:34:58 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/135 14:35:04 fjh: done 14:35:19 close ISSUE-135 14:35:19 Closed ISSUE-135. 14:35:28 ISSUE-136? 14:35:28 ISSUE-136 -- Issues related to garbage collection -- open 14:35:28 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/136 14:35:45 close ISSUE-136 14:35:45 Closed ISSUE-136. 14:36:11 fjh: we should respond to Adam regarding ISSUE-135 and ISSUE-136 once we have new WD 14:37:39 fjh: shall we plan to publish an updated WD on the 5 Sept 14:37:48 fjh: would need publication ready draft by Wed 4th 14:37:52 richt: that should work 14:38:25 fjh: others things to talk about with regards to Network Service Disovery 14:38:41 richt: question about security with UPnP, also dubious services 14:38:44 richt: XXX? 14:38:55 richt: need to talk about those in security and privacy section 14:39:04 richt: dom sent pointer related to this 14:39:32 richt: second item, looking for feedback from other vendors now as well 14:39:39 fjh: publishing WD will help us request that 14:39:50 richt: TPAC would be good place for that 14:40:06 fjh: maybe a birds session on this would be helpful 14:42:03 some other security-related issues for NSD to think about: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/HT0KZKuTLxM/DG9jOw6WzwoJ 14:42:07 fjh: you can propose a session: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/SessionIdeas 14:42:17 my response @ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/0004.html 14:42:26 fjh: I meant break-out session 14:43:00 Topic: Proximity and Light 14:43:08 Newly raised issues addressed in editors draft, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/0044.html 14:43:21 fjh: thanks Anssi for the updates 14:43:30 anssik: thanks Dom for the very careful review 14:44:05 fjh: we do not have formal resolution of some issues, so am waiting on CfC 14:44:06 Proximity Event API LC-2740 requires resolution: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/43696/WD-proximity-20121206/2740 14:44:07 Ambient Light Event API LC-2739 requires resolution: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/43696/WD-ambient-light-20121213/2739 14:44:32 fjh: these are the "one document" versus separate specs 14:46:02 fjh: good arguments either way, I suggest we go with our current direction 14:46:52 josh_soref: current approach allows to implement only one, without confusion of what it means to be conformant if only implementing Light but not Proximity for example 14:47:37 anssik: this is editorial 14:47:48 fjh: can we go to REC with two specs 14:48:25 josh_soref: can go forward to REC with two specifications but allow creation of consolidated version 14:49:45 josh_soref: having a single document can still introduce errors when material from one is not appropriate to another 14:50:06 josh_soref: talking about simply generating merge from two documents 14:51:29 RESOLUTION: WG agrees to keep Proximity Event API and Ambient Light Event API as separate REC Track specifications to enable clarity regarding testing and conformance 14:51:46 WG notes that combined version can be generated for convenience from these two documents. 14:52:03 No confirmations on Proximity LC-2731, LC-2742 and Light LC-2737 and LC-2738. 14:52:26 fjh: as with other specs, will assume confirmation unless response received during CfC period 14:52:46 fjh: I believe this means that I can send the CfCs now 14:52:58 Topic: Vibration 14:53:08 Question/Comment on CR draft: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Jul/0050.html 14:53:08 Question Vibration and iframes, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Jul/0055.html 14:53:09 Question: Vibration strength http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Aug/0040.html 14:53:20 fjh: I suggest you look at these and respond on the list 14:53:25 anssik: will look at them 14:54:43 fjh: if we need a clarification it would be useful to add 14:55:18 josh_soref: will work on the git pull requests for vibration test cases 14:55:35 Topic; Action Review 14:56:55 s/Topic;/Topic:/ 14:58:18 -anssik 14:58:22 -Cathy 14:58:24 -richt 14:58:27 -gmandyam 15:01:09 ACTION-523? 15:01:09 ACTION-523 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Work on test cases for battery, vibration, and HTML Media Capture -- due 2012-08-31 -- OPEN 15:01:09 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/523 15:01:13 ACTION-621? 15:01:13 ACTION-621 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Create test cases for HTML Media Capture -- due 2013-03-13 -- OPEN 15:01:13 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/621 15:01:26 ACTION-642? 15:01:26 ACTION-642 -- Dominique Hazaël-Massieux to Review proximity and ambient light test cases -- due 2013-09-18 -- OPEN 15:01:26 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/642 15:01:31 ACTION-643? 15:01:31 ACTION-643 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Review Ambient Light and Proximity test cases by Sept -- due 2013-07-10 -- OPEN 15:01:31 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/643 15:01:36 ACTION-645? 15:01:36 ACTION-645 -- Frederick Hirsch to Share Network Service Discovery editors draft with PING -- due 2013-07-31 -- OPEN 15:01:36 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/645 15:01:44 ACTION-646? 15:01:44 ACTION-646 -- Frederick Hirsch to Organize joint call with web and tv group re network service discovery -- due 2013-08-21 -- OPEN 15:01:44 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/646 15:01:49 -Josh_Soref 15:01:50 ACTION-647? 15:01:50 ACTION-647 -- Frederick Hirsch to Send cfc to progress light to cr, two week cfc -- due 2013-08-21 -- OPEN 15:01:50 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/647 15:01:56 ACTION-648? 15:01:56 ACTION-648 -- Frederick Hirsch to Send cfc to progress proxmity to cr, two week cfc -- due 2013-08-21 -- OPEN 15:01:56 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/648 15:02:00 ACTION-649? 15:02:00 ACTION-649 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Review todo items associated with battery test cases -- due 2013-08-21 -- OPEN 15:02:00 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/649 15:02:08 close ACTION-650 15:02:08 Closed ACTION-650. 15:02:27 Topic: Other business 15:02:28 none 15:02:32 Topic: Adjourn 15:02:40 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:02:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/21-dap-minutes.html fjh 15:04:19 s/birds session/break-out session/ 15:04:27 s/ I meant break-out session// 15:04:59 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:04:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/21-dap-minutes.html fjh 15:05:59 -fjh 15:06:01 UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended 15:06:01 Attendees were Josh_Soref, fjh, +1.858.750.aaaa, gmandyam, richt, Cathy, anssik 15:38:51 jeffh has joined #dap 16:27:23 Zakim has left #dap