16:51:43 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:51:43 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/15-ua-irc 16:51:45 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:51:45 Zakim has joined #ua 16:51:47 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:51:47 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes 16:51:48 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:51:48 Date: 15 August 2013 16:51:55 rrsagent, set logs public 16:52:13 chair: jimallan, kellyford 16:52:19 regrets: Jan 16:52:46 Agenda+ Proposal for 1.8.6 16:52:59 Agenda+ UAAG2: Clarifying obscuration - Jan 16:53:09 agenda+ Survey from 4 July start on question 5 - JR17 16:54:05 kford has joined #ua 16:54:24 zakim, agenda? 16:54:24 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 16:54:25 1. Proposal for 1.8.6 [from allanj] 16:54:25 2. UAAG2: Clarifying obscuration - Jan [from allanj] 16:54:25 3. Survey from 4 July start on question 5 - JR17 [from allanj] 17:02:09 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:02:16 +[Microsoft] 17:02:24 Greg has joined #ua 17:02:25 zakim, microsoft is kford 17:02:25 +kford; got it 17:02:50 +Greg_Lowney 17:02:53 +Jim_Allan 17:06:10 +Jeanne 17:08:56 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:09:36 +Kim_Patch 17:18:31 zakim, agenda 17:18:31 I don't understand 'agenda', allanj 17:18:38 zakim, agenda? 17:18:38 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 17:18:39 1. Proposal for 1.8.6 [from allanj] 17:18:39 2. UAAG2: Clarifying obscuration - Jan [from allanj] 17:18:39 3. Survey from 4 July start on question 5 - JR17 [from allanj] 17:18:53 zakim, open item 1 17:18:53 agendum 1. "Proposal for 1.8.6" taken up [from allanj] 17:19:18 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0030.html 17:20:11 Jan did proposal, Greg suggested changes, and Jan agreed. 17:20:38 Proposed 17:20:39 1.8.6: Zoom: The user can rescale content within top level graphical viewports as follows: (Level A) 17:20:41 Zoom in: to 500% or more of the default size; and 17:20:42 Zoom out: to 10% or less of the default size, so the content fits within the height or width of the viewport. (Level AA) 17:21:04 ignore above 17:21:11 here is correct 17:21:14 1.8.6: Zoom: The user can rescale content within top level graphical viewports as follows: (Level A) 17:21:16 a) Zoom in: to 500% or more of the default size; and 17:21:17 b) Zoom out: to 10% or less of the default size, or enough to let the content fit within the height or width of its viewport, whichever size is smaller. 17:21:54 +1 17:22:07 No objections. 17:22:31 action: jeanne to add "1.8.6: Zoom: The user can rescale content within top level graphical viewports as follows: (Level A) 17:22:31 Created ACTION-864 - Add "1.8.6: zoom: the user can rescale content within top level graphical viewports as follows: (level a) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-08-22]. 17:22:33 a) Zoom in: to 500% or more of the default size; and 17:22:34 b) Zoom out: to 10% or less of the default size, or enough to let the content fit within the height or width of its viewport, whichever size is smaller. 17:22:36 to the document 17:23:08 zakim, close item 1 17:23:08 agendum 1, Proposal for 1.8.6, closed 17:23:09 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:23:09 2. UAAG2: Clarifying obscuration - Jan [from allanj] 17:24:15 zakim, take up item 2 17:24:15 agendum 2. "UAAG2: Clarifying obscuration - Jan" taken up [from allanj] 17:25:45 kim, this is the tread. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0032.html related to captions obscuring underlying video 17:26:48 Greg: Perhaps we should just use simpler and more limited wording just requiring the option for transparent background behind caption text. Not sure what else Jan would like to cover with "not fully obscure". 17:27:15 Jeanne: Perhaps should drop this requirement, as it's complicated and doesn't have that much benefit for accessibility. 17:27:39 Jim: This is only AAA. 17:27:54 Jeanne: Not sure the original comment justifies this much work. 17:30:12 Jim: Jan's original comments were: JR5 This is a lot of configurability. JR6: Right-and-left is a challenge with horizontally flowing languages like English. 17:30:54 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0025.html 17:30:56 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0031.html 17:30:57 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0032.html 17:33:10 Greg: The transparency vs. "fully obscure" discussion is about 1.1.4.d. 17:33:55 Jan's original comment on 1.1.4 was "JR3 (a) seems like a lot at AA, especially since captions typically overlay the lower portion of the video. Others make sense." 17:35:11 Kim: say "functionally obscure" instead of "fully obscure"? 17:35:20 Jeanne: How could you test "functionally obscure"? 17:35:53 Jim: QuickTime etc. put captions in a separate window; if video players could do that it would be fine. Proposal in HTML5 is that they support this. 17:37:03 Greg: But Jan's concern on the earlier call was that having captions in a separate area may not be feasible on small devices, and that reducing the size of the primary media to allow captions to be in a separate area of a small screen would effectively obscure the primary media, even though it's not covered, it's too small. 17:38:01 Jim: say not more than 15% coverage? 17:38:16 Jeanne: What about people with low vision who want very large captions? 17:39:39 Jeanne: How about removing the contentious part of this SC? 17:41:07 Jim: Want to postpone this in order to get to the survey. 17:41:25 Jeanne proposes drop D, the point about obscuring the primary media. 17:41:45 Kim: Put as suggestion in the Implementing document. 17:42:08 action: jim to review obscure 1.1.4 17:42:08 Created ACTION-865 - Review obscure 1.1.4 [on Jim Allan - due 2013-08-22]. 17:42:26 zakim, close item 2 17:42:26 agendum 2, UAAG2: Clarifying obscuration - Jan, closed 17:42:27 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 17:42:27 3. Survey from 4 July start on question 5 - JR17 [from allanj] 17:42:35 zakim, open item 3 17:42:35 agendum 3. "Survey from 4 July start on question 5 - JR17" taken up [from allanj] 17:42:46 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130702/results#xq10 17:43:07 Topic: 2.2.4 comment JR17 17:47:25 Jeanne: Doesn't feel it meets qualifications for Level A, doesn't block access, just makes it more difficult. 17:47:59 Kim: fatigue and confusion. 17:48:16 Jim: All but Greg agree on AA. 17:48:49 4 wordings that are functionally the same 17:48:57 Greg: We have four wordings, all functionally the same, so the editorial subgroup could work on that. 17:50:32 Greg: I also suggested requiring active notification, such as a message box, not just a passive message down on the status bar. 17:51:09 Jeanne: push back from manufacturers not wanting requirements on UI such as dialog boxes. 17:51:22 Greg: Not requiring message boxes all the time, just the option. 17:51:39 Jeanne: Benefit not worth the fight, considering the push back we'd get. 17:52:02 Greg: Defer to Jeanne, although unhappily. 17:53:52 -Jeanne 17:54:04 Jim: could this be done with extensions? 17:54:28 Greg: In my email I cited a thread where it was revealed it could not be done in Firefox today. 17:54:50 +Jeanne 17:55:27 Jeanne: Good enough to suggest active notification in Intent and Examples? 17:55:30 Greg: Better than nothing. 17:56:52 Greg: I can't tell you how angry it makes me--not the UAAG decision but the browser manufacturers who make search and navigation so difficult for me and many others. 17:57:21 action: wording of 2.2.4 change to The user can request notification when sequential navigation wraps at the beginning or end of a document, and can prevent such wrapping. 17:57:21 Greg: ...and refuse to fix it even after years of complaints. 17:57:21 Error finding 'wording'. You can review and register nicknames at . 17:57:22 suggest active notification in Intent and examples 17:57:56 action: jeanne to change wording of 2.2.4 change to The user can request notification when sequential navigation wraps at the beginning or end of a document, and can prevent such wrapping 17:57:57 Created ACTION-866 - Change wording of 2.2.4 change to the user can request notification when sequential navigation wraps at the beginning or end of a document, and can prevent such wrapping [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-08-22]. 17:58:28 topic: 2.3.3 JR20 17:58:40 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130702/results#xq11 17:59:06 Existing 17:59:08 2.3.3 Direct activation of Enabled Elements: The user can move directly to and activate any enabled element in rendered content. (Level A) 17:59:09 Proposed 17:59:11 Level AA 18:00:47 jeanne has joined #ua 18:01:40 Kim: Not having it is the equivalent of your car only going 30 miles per hour instead of 60. If it's that difficult, you won't use it as often. 18:02:04 Kim: Mouseless Browsing handles large numbers of links by only numbering those visible on the screen. 18:02:07 this is the mousekeys SC 18:03:12 Greg: I realize my concern is unwarranted as the wording doesn't require a single key for each element, so typing long numbers followed by a hotkey would work. 18:03:30 Kelly: We could keep it A but expect push back from manufacturers. 18:03:39 Jim: Extensions provide this, so shouldn't be an issue. 18:03:54 Kelly: But for cases where extensions don't exist... 18:04:37 Kelly: To the extent manufacturers value compliance, having more Level A is good, but when they don't having more Level A discourages adoption. 18:04:49 Resolution: keep 2.2.3 at Level A. 18:05:50 Jeanne: "the working group feels this is essential for users relying on speech input, and there are numerous examples available." 18:06:49 s/mousekeys/Mouseless Browsing/ 18:06:54 topic: 2.7.4 JR29 18:07:07 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130702/results#xq12 18:07:42 Comment 18:07:43 JR29: AAA perhaps? 18:07:45 Existing 18:07:48 2.7.4 Change preference settings outside the user interface: The user can adjust any preference settings required to meet the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines (UAAG) 2.0 from outside the user agent user interface. (Level AA) 18:09:59 Resolution: 2.7.4 change to AAA 18:10:32 topic: 2.11.4 JR36 18:10:52 Comment 18:10:54 JR36: Could this be AA? 18:10:55 Existing 18:10:57 2.11.4 Playback Rate Adjustment for Prerecorded Content: The user can adjust the playback rate of prerecorded time-based media content, such that all of the following are true: (Level A) 18:10:58 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130702/results#xq13 18:10:58 a. The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based media tracks to between 50% and 250% of real time. 18:11:00 b. Speech whose playback rate has been adjusted by the user. 18:11:01 maintains pitch in order to limit degradation of the speech quality. c. Audio and video tracks remain synchronized across this required range of playback rates. 18:11:03 d. The user agent provides a function that resets the playback rate to normal (100%). 18:13:29 Kim: Disagrees but not strongly enough to veto it alone. 18:13:40 Resolution: 2.114. change to AA. 18:13:40 Topic: 3.1.1 JR40 18:13:55 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130702/results#xq14 18:14:07 Comment 18:14:08 JR40: Maybe remove "and rendered content". Only mechanism for this in content would seem to be politeness level and implementing that is should following the content spec. 18:14:10 Existing 18:14:12 3.1.1 Reduce Interruptions: The user can avoid or defer recognized non-essential or low priority messages and updating/changing information in the user agent user interface and rendered content.(Level AA) 18:14:13 Proposed 18:14:15 3.1.1 Reduce Interruptions: The user can avoid or defer recognized non-essential or low priority messages and updating/changing information in the user agent user interface.(Level AA) 18:15:30 Agree with the proposal 5 18:15:31 Disagree with the proposal 0 18:15:33 Neutral, will accept consensus of the group 1 18:15:34 Suggest the following changes to the proposal 1 18:16:27 jan proposal +1 18:16:41 Jim: Prefer Jan's wording to Eric's. 18:17:25 Jeanne: Feels Jan's is more testable because it talks about non-essential and low priority and updating information, the last two map to ARIA and therefore are more testable. 18:17:39 If we remove the "in rendered content" then we don't need "recognized". 18:18:41 3.1.1 Reduce Interruptions: The user can avoid or defer non-essential or low priority messages and updating/changing information in the user agent user interface.(Level AA) 18:19:58 The sentence is structured "The user can A and B in C"; is there ambiguity whether C applies to both A and B, or only to be? 18:20:06 s/be?/B?/ 18:22:33 Action: Jeanne to review 3.1.1 Reduce Interruptions to determine whether there's need to reduce ambiguity as to whether "in UA UI" applies to both "non-essential..." and "updating/changing..." 18:22:33 Created ACTION-867 - Review 3.1.1 reduce interruptions to determine whether there's need to reduce ambiguity as to whether "in ua ui" applies to both "non-essential..." and "updating/changing..." [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-08-22]. 18:23:31 Resolution: change wording of 3.1.1 and see action 867 for final wording 18:24:06 Kim: Are non-essential and low-priority messages different? If so, could simplify sentence. 18:24:09 topic: 4.1.2 JR44 18:24:19 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130702/results#xq15 18:24:31 Comment 18:24:32 JR44: Isn't this (4.1.2) implementation detail for 4.1.1? 18:24:34 Existing 18:24:35 4.1.1 Platform Accessibility Services: The user agent supports relevant platform accessibility services. (Level A) 18:24:37 4.1.2 Name, Role, State, Value, Description: For all user interface components including user interface , rendered content , generated content, and alternative content, the user agent makes available the name, role, state, value, and description via platform accessibility services. (Level A) 18:24:38 Proposed 18:24:40 Remove 4.1.2, merging the IER with 4.1.1 18:28:08 ok with rejecting proposal and leaving them as they are 18:29:54 Greg: I think I prefer existing wording, because if the platform API supports these four attributes but does not require them, 4.1.1 gives the general "support the API including all it requires" (which lacking in Jim's rewrite), plus 4.1.2 sets a minimum required even if the API leaves them optional. 18:31:21 I don't mind combining them in theory but prefer existing wording over any attempt to combine them I've yet seen. 18:32:23 Resolution: Not accept proposal for combining 4.1.1 and 4.2.2 and leaving them separate success criteria provides more protection for assistive technology 18:32:39 s/and leaving/, as leaving/ 18:33:44 next item will be JR47 5.1.1 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130702/results#xq16 18:33:56 -kford 18:34:01 rrsagent, make minutes 18:34:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/15-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:34:17 regrets next week for Greg 18:34:22 rrsagent, make minutes 18:34:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/15-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:35:25 zakim, please part 18:35:25 leaving. As of this point the attendees were kford, Greg_Lowney, Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Kim_Patch 18:35:25 Zakim has left #ua 18:35:36 rrsagent, make minutes 18:35:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/15-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:35:59 rrsagent, please part 18:35:59 I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/15-ua-actions.rdf : 18:35:59 ACTION: jeanne to add "1.8.6: Zoom: The user can rescale content within top level graphical viewports as follows: (Level A) [1] 18:35:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/15-ua-irc#T17-22-31 18:35:59 ACTION: jim to review obscure 1.1.4 [2] 18:35:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/15-ua-irc#T17-42-08 18:35:59 ACTION: wording of 2.2.4 change to The user can request notification when sequential navigation wraps at the beginning or end of a document, and can prevent such wrapping. [3] 18:35:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/15-ua-irc#T17-57-21 18:35:59 ACTION: jeanne to change wording of 2.2.4 change to The user can request notification when sequential navigation wraps at the beginning or end of a document, and can prevent such wrapping [4] 18:35:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/15-ua-irc#T17-57-56 18:35:59 ACTION: Jeanne to review 3.1.1 Reduce Interruptions to determine whether there's need to reduce ambiguity as to whether "in UA UI" applies to both "non-essential..." and "updating/changing..." [5] 18:35:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/15-ua-irc#T18-22-33