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15:54:25 <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
15:54:42 <plinss> rrsagent, pointer?
15:54:42 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2013/08/14-css-irc#T15-54-42
15:55:19 <plinss> plinss has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0198.html
15:56:06 <plinss> zakim, this is style
15:56:06 <Zakim> ok, plinss; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
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15:59:34 <Zakim> +krit
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16:00:01 <Zakim> +Stearns
16:00:24 <Zakim> +??P10
16:00:27 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P10 is me
16:00:27 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:00:28 <Zakim> +antonp
16:00:45 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:00:47 <Zakim> -Stearns
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16:02:14 <Zakim> +Stearns
16:02:24 <Zakim> +smfr
16:02:45 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: should we just publish Syntax? The remaining issues seem minor
16:02:54 <Zakim> +TabAtkins
16:03:03 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:03:07 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: I'm down with this.
16:03:13 <TabAtkins> Let's see if we can get a resolution today.
16:03:20 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #CSS
16:03:28 <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:03:28 <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
16:03:30 <TabAtkins> Or maybe we already did?  Let me go check the f2f minutes.
16:03:50 <florian> florian has joined #css
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16:04:00 <SimonSapin> AFAIR we were waiting on dbaron’s feedback, which he gave
16:04:02 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:04:04 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:04:09 <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
16:04:09 <Zakim> +hober; got it
16:04:16 <Zakim> +Bert
16:04:34 <TabAtkins> Oh, and we were waiting for the "CSS Stylesheets" section.
16:04:39 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
16:04:43 <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk
16:04:52 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:05:20 <c_palmer> Zakim, shezbaig_wk is me
16:05:20 <Zakim> +c_palmer; got it
16:05:23 <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
16:05:29 <Zakim> +??P18
16:05:36 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:05:44 <florian> Zakim, I am ??P18
16:05:44 <Zakim> +florian; got it
16:06:03 <TabAtkins> Topic: Folks showing up at TPAC?
16:06:04 <Zakim> + +98136aaaa
16:06:12 <TabAtkins> plinss: sylvaing wanted to know who was showing up at TPAC.
16:06:15 <ChrisL> zakim, aa is me
16:06:15 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I do not recognize a party named 'aa'
16:06:20 <TabAtkins> plinss: There's a wiki page for this already.
16:06:30 <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2013
16:06:35 <ChrisL> zakim, +98 is me
16:06:35 <Zakim> +ChrisL; got it
16:06:42 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Are we doing a Sunday meeting day?
16:06:52 <TabAtkins> plinss: Not known yet - need to find out if we can get the space.
16:06:57 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Are we wanting to?
16:07:12 <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
16:07:12 <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
16:07:16 <TabAtkins> Bert: When is the TTWF event? Sat or Sun?
16:07:21 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Saturday.
16:07:51 <TabAtkins> plinss: Opinions on meeting the extra day?
16:07:51 <cabanier> cabanier has joined #css
16:07:56 <TabAtkins> florian: It's usually useful.
16:07:57 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:08:01 <TabAtkins> Rossen: Should be fine.
16:08:19 <TabAtkins> plinss: Okay, I'll see if we can get the room.
16:08:33 <TabAtkins> plinss: If the organizers can't find space, is there anyone with resources in that area?
16:08:45 <TabAtkins> plinss: I'll take that as a no.
16:08:53 <TabAtkins> Topic: LC period for Counter Styles
16:09:05 <TabAtkins> plinss: LC period is expiring for Counter Styles.  Where we at?
16:09:14 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:09:18 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I can get up the DoC this week.
16:09:21 <TabAtkins> plinss: Any feedback?
16:09:28 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Not really, just from r12a.
16:09:33 <TabAtkins> Topic: CSS surrogate
16:09:59 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: When you have a hex CSS escape, we turn that into the corresponding codepoint.
16:10:19 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: We currently have a special case for 0 because we want to avoid NUL characters, so it's replaced by the replacement char.
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16:10:30 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Something else that's problematic is surrogate codepoints, which are used for utf-16.
16:10:40 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: These characters are not used outside of utf-16.
16:10:45 <ChrisL> surrogates are not characters
16:11:07 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: If you have two escape sequences for surrogates next to each other, impls will interpret those as a single codepoint (whatever they mean).
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16:11:13 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: This is the wrong thing to do.
16:11:14 <ChrisL> assuming we have a proper definition for characters, like unicode codepoint and not, say, grapheme cluster
16:11:26 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: So suggestion is to use replacement char for surrogate escapes as well.
16:11:36 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Why is that wrong?
16:11:45 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Because you already have a mechanism for inputting high codepoints.
16:12:04 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: The fact that two surrogates produce a character is a feature of UTF-16, not unicode.
16:12:08 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:12:09 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
16:12:13 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: I agree.
16:12:29 <MaRakow> zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is me
16:12:29 <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
16:12:41 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: This ties into the other thread, which talks about how "character" and "codepoint".
16:13:01 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Someone from Moz said they'd be okay with making this change, and I think we'd be fine on Blink too, so I'm okay with this change.
16:13:25 <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: CSS escapes for surrogates produce u+fffd instead.
16:13:27 <ChrisL> ok so this is not really about surrogate escapes. its about 'half surrogates'
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16:13:36 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: In Syntax, we use the word "character", which isn't precisely defined.
16:13:40 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: We mean codepoints.
16:13:52 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: What we could do is use the word "codepoints", and avoid the word "character".
16:14:04 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Or we coudl define in the beginning that for this spec, the word "character" means "codepoints".
16:14:18 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: CSS Text already does something similar, where "character" means "grapheme cluster".
16:14:27 <SimonSapin> not hearing you florian
16:14:30 <TabAtkins> florian: We've had problems with that.  Using "characters" is more elegant, but it's less clear.
16:14:35 <bradk> Regrets that I'm not really here. In a disaster recovery meeting that I forgot about until now.
16:14:42 <SimonSapin> might be on my end…
16:14:46 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: The real problem is that CSS Text defines "connector" as something wrong.
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16:15:03 <TabAtkins> s/connector/character/
16:15:17 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Gives us problems elsewhere.
16:15:25 <TabAtkins> fantasai: "character" is ambiguous in English.
16:15:47 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: I don't care about English, I care about what technical specs have worked out for "character" to mean.
16:16:22 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: And what the unicode consortium has defined for it.
16:16:32 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I'm fine with just saying "codepoint" everywhere in Syntax.
16:16:38 <ChrisL> s/English/English in all its varied uses/
16:16:47 <TabAtkins> dbaron: I think part of the reason CSS Text did what it did was to make the spec readable.
16:16:52 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: But it doesn't, that's the problem.
16:16:57 <SimonSapin> Unicode has 4 different definitions of "character"
16:17:04 <SimonSapin> one of which is "abstract character"
16:17:09 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: If you redefine an ambiguous term differently in multiple specs, it's hard to combine them when reading.
16:17:29 <TabAtkins> fantasai: We got feedback that "grapheme cluster" is confusing and hard to read, which is why I used "character".
16:17:42 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: I understand that, but it still ends up with a different definition.
16:17:51 <TabAtkins> dbaron: I think the solution is to use hyperlinks.
16:18:02 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: That helps.
16:18:14 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: But people ahve multiple specs open, they look at things and combine stuff, etc.
16:18:39 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: It's a problem if they see the same word in two specs that mean different things.
16:19:07 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
16:19:10 <TabAtkins> plinss: So if Text doesn't use "character", what should it use?
16:19:28 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: A different term that's easier than "grapheme cluster".  Maybe "cluster" or something.
16:19:29 <Zakim> +??P0
16:19:36 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P0 is me
16:19:36 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:19:40 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: And the parsing spec uses "character" to mean what it means in unicode.
16:19:43 <fantasai> "user-perceived characters"
16:19:56 <fantasai> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/#Introduction
16:20:11 <SimonSapin> ChrisL, so what’s a character?
16:20:11 <TabAtkins> fantasai: That's what the definition of "grapheme cluster" is based on.
16:20:22 <florian> I agree that not using the word character the way it is currently used in css text makes for awkward sentences, but I think I'd take that over technical confusion due to inconsistent use of the word
16:20:32 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: I guess we can talk about that at the meeting.
16:20:42 <fantasai> It is important to recognize that what the user thinks of as a "character"—a basic unit of a writing system for a language—may not be just a single Unicode code point. Instead, that basic unit may be made up of multiple Unicode code points. To avoid ambiguity with the computer use of the term character, this is called a user-perceived character.
16:20:52 <fantasai> -- http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/#Grapheme_Cluster_Boundaries
16:21:13 <TabAtkins> [stuff]
16:21:56 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Could we move the Text bikeshedding to the mailing lilst.
16:22:00 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Sure.
16:22:36 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: So is a half-surrogate a codepoint?
16:23:12 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yes.  But in some places, if we receive those codepoints we won't emit them.
16:23:30 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: You can still get some bad codepoints via the OM.
16:23:39 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: By setting a JS string.
16:24:21 <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Switch Syntax to using the term "codepoint".
16:24:45 <ChrisL> and "codepoint" will be hyperlinked to some unicode-referenced definition?
16:25:09 <fantasai> text issue on character : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0702.html
16:25:25 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: After these changes, can we publish Syntax?
16:25:41 <TabAtkins> plinss: What level?
16:25:52 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: We haven't published our first WD yet.
16:26:10 <TabAtkins> dbaron: Technically we already have a WD for Syntax.
16:26:36 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yeah, but in practice it's just a spec with the same name.
16:26:52 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I'm fine as publishing either as WD or FPWD, based on what W3M says.
16:26:53 <dbaron> I think I said I was happy with publishing a few months ago.
16:27:06 <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Publish Syntax as WD or FPWD, depending.
16:27:08 <ChrisL> um, if it was published with the same name and same patent policy then its a previous fpwd surely
16:27:26 <TabAtkins> Topic: grid auto-flow
16:27:55 <TabAtkins> Rossen: I think we needed to revisit was about you, Tab.
16:28:05 <TabAtkins> Rossen: We wanted to have grid-auto-flow to be sparse.
16:28:13 <SimonSapin> ChrisL, we did the Great Renaming so it’s css-syntax-3 now, but css3-syntax should redirect to it
16:28:21 <TabAtkins> Rossen: The current spec describes a sparse model, and our impl does it.
16:28:36 <TabAtkins> Rossen: The couple of ideas that were floating around were:
16:28:52 <TabAtkins> Rossen: Stick with the sparse model, and then if there's demand from impls or apps for the dense model, enable it through some switch.
16:29:14 <ChrisL> yeah I think new shortnames is orthogonal there
16:29:30 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: That's exactly what I want.
16:30:02 <TabAtkins> Rossen: Any particular reason why you wanted the dense model?
16:30:58 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I know that there are JS libraries that do dense packing, and cite dense-ness as a benefit over other sparse packings.
16:31:42 <TabAtkins> Rossen: A use-case I can think of is, say, an image page that just wants lots of images up without holes.
16:32:33 <dbaron> Tab: It's really simple to implement; you just reset the grid cursor after ???.
16:32:43 <TabAtkins> s/???/each auto placement/
16:32:47 <dbaron> Rossen, Stearns: It's one way of doing dense packing.
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16:32:51 <TabAtkins> Rossen: I'm okay with that.
16:33:00 <stearns> ok by me
16:33:17 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:33:26 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Naming ideas? grid-auto-flow-type? -strategy? -pack? -packing?
16:33:37 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:34:19 <TabAtkins> Rossen: Why not just throw it into the value of grid-auto-flow?
16:34:23 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Ah, I guess that's okay.
16:35:14 <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Add a dense/sparse keyword to grid-auto-flow, defaulting to sparse.
16:35:44 <TabAtkins> Topic: abspos
16:35:54 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:36:07 <TabAtkins> fantasai: I wanted to see where impls were at in abspos-in-flexbox, and see if we wanted to stick with that.  Also, cross-check with Grid and see what it's doing.
16:36:15 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Because we want flexbox and grid to be consistent when possible.
16:36:30 <TabAtkins> fantasai: If their behaviors are different, maybe switch one to the other's behavior.
16:36:42 <TabAtkins> florian: This sounds like a f2f topic?
16:36:52 <TabAtkins> Rossen: Or maybe before that - start in the list for technical details.
16:37:41 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
16:37:43 <TabAtkins> plinss: Rossen, in Tokyo you talked about doing a small grid meetup?
16:38:00 <TabAtkins> Rossen: I think we discussed that.  We had a round of discussion where we resolved a bunch of things.
16:38:38 <TabAtkins> Rossen: Do we need to make something official? Or are you just getting a sense of where we are?
16:38:42 <TabAtkins> plinss: The latter.
16:38:54 <TabAtkins> plinss: If there's some group of people we need to get together before Paris.
16:39:07 <TabAtkins> Rossen: Yeah, at least a conference call.
16:39:23 <TabAtkins> Topic: Text LC?
16:39:31 <TabAtkins> plinss: Are we in a palce to make progress on Text issues?
16:39:38 <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think mainly waiting for Bert right now.
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16:39:53 <TabAtkins> fantasai: The last time we discussed I think we had mostly consensus on the letter-spacing change, but Bert wasn't happy with it.
16:40:07 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Bert's responded this morning, but I haven't had a chance to respond back.
16:40:17 <TabAtkins> fantasai: There's also the text-align proposal.
16:40:27 <TabAtkins> fantasai: About text-align and text-align-last properties.
16:40:28 <TabAtkins> grid
16:40:29 <SimonSapin> (terminology question: U+005F is a "code point" (not codepoint) and hex 5F is its "number"?)
16:40:40 <stearns> grid
16:40:41 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:41:06 <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/text-align-last-shorthand
16:41:17 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0263.html
16:41:40 <TabAtkins> fantasai: One way to deal with it is to make text-align a shorthand that resets text-align-last.
16:41:49 <TabAtkins> fantasai: This also lets us make it easier to set common combinations.
16:42:05 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Another way is to do what IE does, where text-align-last only has effect if text-align:justify.
16:42:12 <TabAtkins> fantasai: That solves it in some cases, but not others.
16:42:25 <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think the shorthand approach is easiest for authors, and it *looks* like it should be a shorthand.
16:42:47 <plinss> q- http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/text-align-last-short
16:42:58 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: If I set text-align:justify, it does what the latin solution is.  I'd need text-align:distribute to get the japanese behavior, correct?
16:43:18 <TabAtkins> fantasai: distribute vs auto for text-justify determines the realtive priority of gaps between letters and cjk characters.
16:43:31 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:43:35 <TabAtkins> fantasai: In auto, you don't put spaces between latin letters, and do between cjk.  "distribute" puts spaces in all of them.
16:43:49 <TabAtkins> s/text-align:distribute/text-justify:distribute/
16:44:04 <TabAtkins> fantasai: You'd say: "text-align:justify-all; text-justify:distribute;"
16:45:14 <TabAtkins> fantasai: text-align-last:auto means "use whatever text-align says to use", and "text-align:justify" and "text-justify:distribute", then text-align-last defaults to "justify"; otherwise, it defautls to "start".
16:45:36 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Because when the distribute style is used, it's usually used in combination with justifying all lines.
16:45:42 <TabAtkins> fantasai: So we special-cased that to make it easier.
16:46:05 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: There was something about Bert's 15-values proposal that I kinda linked.
16:46:26 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: There were first, middle, and last lines.  Right now text-align only covers first/middle and last.
16:46:39 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: Bert was saying there's another case for the middle lines specifically.
16:47:01 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: There's an application in poetry for that one, where you left-justify the first and right-justify the remainder.
16:47:24 <TabAtkins> stearns: If you set it up to specify first/last/other in that order, and default behavior appropriately, you can get a lot of Bert's combos relatively simply.
16:47:33 <TabAtkins> s/stearns/SteveZ/
16:47:51 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Right - I think independent values combined together is the right way to do that.
16:48:07 <TabAtkins> fantasai: And we could shorthand it later - text-align-first/last/other?
16:48:20 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: That's why I thought going the shorthand route was a good way to go.
16:48:40 <TabAtkins> Bert: Problem with using multiple keywords is that using two keywords isn't very clear.
16:48:58 <TabAtkins> Bert: "justify center" means, I guess, everything is justified but the last is centered...
16:49:06 <TabAtkins> Bert: I used single keywords to avoid inconsistency.
16:49:29 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Right. I think if we did multiple keywords, say that 2 of them cover first/middle and last.
16:49:42 <TabAtkins> fantasai: And have some new keywords for targetting only first.
16:49:57 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: or my suggestion is that the middle lines are aligned as the first, unless you specify the third one.
16:50:21 <TabAtkins> Bert: You still have the problem of single-line paragraphs - is that first or last line?
16:50:42 <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think first line wins over last, and last wins over "other".
16:50:46 <TabAtkins> florian: Doesn't seem too bad.
16:50:51 <Zakim> -c_palmer
16:51:05 <TabAtkins> fantasai: So everyone who's spoken so far seems to think the shorthand makes sense, and we need some list discussion for details.
16:51:15 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Does anyone have a different opinion?
16:51:28 <dbaron> Is this a new feature for level 3?
16:51:30 <TabAtkins> Bert: I think shorthand is okay. If we can avoid ahving three properties, even better.
16:51:43 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Because of existing content for text-align-last, we need to support that property.
16:51:59 <TabAtkins> fantasai: We can change the interaction of the two properties because of how content usually orders the properties.
16:52:09 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: They order it as if it's a shorthand already.
16:52:35 <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think that on the list we should get an idea of where we're going, and then ahve the first-line adjustment in level 4.
16:52:41 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Keep level 3 with the current feature set.
16:52:47 <TabAtkins> florian: But have it forwards-compatible with what we want.
16:53:02 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Rossen, that okay with you?
16:53:06 <TabAtkins> Rossen: Yeah, I mean...
16:53:24 <TabAtkins> Rossen: I think there's no strong objection on our end.
16:53:37 <TabAtkins> Rossen: Our results last time we talked about this were fairly minimal in adoption.
16:53:38 <dbaron> I don't have a strong opinion; it feels odd to introduce half a model, but I'd also rather see this spec move forward.
16:53:58 <TabAtkins> Rossen: I dont' think the Word guys are using the combo of properties that we feared they might be using.
16:54:20 <TabAtkins> Rossen: I'm not sure what it will mean for us to support the legacy behavior.
16:54:30 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Based on the usage data we've seen, the content will keep working with this change.
16:54:46 <TabAtkins> fantasai: It's only if you do text-align-last first, followed by text-align, that you'll see a behavior change, and we dont' see people doing that.
16:55:00 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: Maybe a warning in level 3 about this behavior change?
16:55:02 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Sure.
16:55:40 <TabAtkins> Rossen: I'd prefer to see the syntax before resolving.
16:55:42 <TabAtkins> fantasai: k
16:55:49 <TabAtkins> Topic: font load events
16:56:41 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: We (blink) want to imlpement font load events, but the spec hasnt' been updated to reflect tokyo consensus.  Can I take over?
16:56:49 <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Add Tab as editor to Font Load Events.
16:56:58 <TabAtkins> Topic: canonical order for shorthands
16:57:15 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:57:29 <fantasai> TabAtkins: For CSSOM, when expanding shorthands, we need to know order in which they are serialized
16:57:36 <fantasai> TabAtkins: For many shorthands, it's obvious
16:57:41 <fantasai> TabAtkins: For others, like 'border', it's complex
16:58:25 <fantasai> TabAtkins: We're thinking of using the 'Canonical Order' line for serializing values to also specify order of longhands
16:58:36 <fantasai> dbaron: What do you mean by ...?
16:58:53 <fantasai> TabAtkins: If you tweak something such that no longer can represent as a shorthand, need to convert to longhand
16:59:06 <fantasai> dbaron: But shorthands still need the current meaning of Canonical Order
16:59:17 <fantasai> dbaron: It currently controls how you serialize a single property value
16:59:23 <fantasai> dbaron: In this case, the property value of the shorthand
16:59:46 <fantasai> dbaron: e.g. specifies that 'border' is expanded as 'medium solid green', not 'green medium solid'
16:59:53 <fantasai> dbaron: You still need that info for shorthands
17:00:21 <fantasai> dbaron: Are you saying that we stick both types of info in the same line/
17:00:30 <fantasai> florian: Think he's saying that they're both the same
17:01:00 <Zakim> -MaRakow
17:01:03 <dbaron> dbaron: I think you should do research -- I don't want people going to change existing interop for the convenience of spec authors.
17:01:05 <fantasai> dbaron: Ok, but need to check, if we have interop on something else, need to make sure we aren't changing the spec from that
17:01:13 <Zakim> -smfr
17:01:15 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:01:15 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:01:16 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:01:16 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:01:17 <Zakim> -antonp
17:01:18 <Zakim> -Stearns
17:01:19 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:01:19 <Zakim> -florian
17:01:20 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:01:20 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:01:21 <Zakim> -Bert
17:01:21 <Zakim> -plinss
17:01:23 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
17:01:36 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins, I’m starting the character->code point changes in Syntax
17:01:49 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Okay, I won't fiddle with the spec for a few minutes. ^_^
17:02:00 <SimonSapin> hehe
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17:09:40 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins, SteveZ, what part of Unicode should I refer to to define code point?
17:15:56 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:16:29 <Zakim> -krit
17:16:31 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:16:31 <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, krit, Stearns, SimonSapin, antonp, dbaron, smfr, TabAtkins, JohnJansen, fantasai, hober, Bert, c_palmer, [Microsoft], florian, +98136aaaa, ChrisL, Rossen,
17:16:31 <Zakim> ... SteveZ, MaRakow
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17:27:53 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/rev/d945246d2184
17:38:48 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Looks good.
17:39:04 <TabAtkins> By the way, since no one came up with a better name, I'm naming the processor "Bikeshed"
17:39:49 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: cool :)
17:40:17 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: also, please make it run spec processing when run without arguments
17:40:36 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: I want to, but argparse currently doesn't allow optional subparsers.
17:40:39 <TabAtkins> It's an open issue.
17:40:45 <TabAtkins> I'm unhappy about it.
17:40:56 <TabAtkins> I recommend making an alias.
17:43:14 <TabAtkins> As soon as they update, I'll fix.
17:43:32 <SimonSapin> they being argparse? I wouldn’t count on it
17:43:40 <TabAtkins> Yeah. :/
17:43:58 <SimonSapin> but a `if len(sys.argv) == 1` special case should be doable
17:44:01 <TabAtkins> Alternatively, I could manually touch argv and see if the first arg is a recognized subparser.
17:44:02 <TabAtkins> Yeah.
17:48:48 <SimonSapin> PR’d
17:50:08 <TabAtkins> Hah, I just pushed the commit anyway.
18:01:03 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: sigh. Can we ignore validation warnings for publication? http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/
18:01:33 <SimonSapin> Also I have no idea what "Element link is missing required attribute property." means
18:02:21 <TabAtkins> ...me neither.
18:02:25 <TabAtkins> And yes, you can ignore warnings.
18:02:34 <TabAtkins> I wonder what the NFC for that character is?
18:03:16 <SimonSapin> 〈〉
18:03:25 <SimonSapin> according to Python’s unicodedata.normalize
18:04:13 <SimonSapin> which is not the same glyph on this machine
18:06:43 <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's slightly different (and uglier) on my machine as well.
18:23:54 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Yo, your CSSSelect is a little broken.
18:24:05 <TabAtkins> It seems to not be selecting <svg:a> elements when I have a selector for "a".
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20:26:35 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Oh, I figured out what the "Element link is missing..." error was about.
20:27:48 <TabAtkins> Custom <link> elements end up sitting in the body, after the boilerplate.  That's only valid for microdata, which requires a property='' attribute.
20:27:54 <TabAtkins> I can fix that up - I already do so for <style>.
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22:15:47 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: yes, anything that has to do with namespaces is broken in cssselect
22:16:27 <SimonSapin> it’s annoying to fix
22:16:41 <SimonSapin> and I don’t really want to spend more time patching up XPath
22:16:56 <SimonSapin> I’d rather implement selectors directly
22:42:23 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: should Syntax have a "previous version" link to the 2003 draft?
22:43:14 <SimonSapin> I’m reading http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/publish
22:43:37 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Yes, it should.
22:45:54 <SimonSapin> done
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