IRC log of osfw3c on 2013-08-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:51:07 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/07-osfw3c-irc
15:51:31 [aaronpk]
RRSAgent: "Sorry, Insufficient Access Privileges"
15:51:31 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand '"Sorry, Insufficient Access Privileges"', aaronpk. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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15:52:02 [aaronpk]
it says "Sorry, Insufficient Access Privileges"
15:52:04 [wseltzer]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:52:16 [wseltzer]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:52:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/07-osfw3c-minutes.html wseltzer
15:52:30 [aaronpk]
thanks!
15:52:38 [danbri]
Hi folks. Sorry I couldn't make the trip, will lurk here...
15:52:38 [wseltzer]
Topic: Welcome
15:52:42 [betehess]
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15:53:07 [wseltzer]
hhalpin: Welcome. Thanks to AppFusions for hosting; IBM and Open Mobile Alliance for sponsoring
15:53:14 [bret]
Is anyone recording video or audio?
15:53:27 [wseltzer]
... Harry Halpin, W3C, co-chairing with Mark
15:53:29 [sam]
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15:54:14 [wseltzer]
... W3C is standards org for the Web. We're excited to make Social a first-class tech on the Web.
15:54:39 [bryan]
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15:54:40 [wseltzer]
... W3C is a consensus-driven, open, voluntary standard-setting process
15:55:21 [wseltzer]
... If you have questions about W3C, see any of the W3C staff here.
15:55:47 [wseltzer]
Mark_Weitzel: President of OpenSocial Foundation
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15:56:02 [Bin_Hu]
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15:56:04 [wseltzer]
... Excited to think about how Social is solving problems for enterprise
15:57:06 [wseltzer]
... Started from consumer side, now looking at bringing social models to the workplace
15:57:21 [wseltzer]
... Find any of our Board members for more about OSF
15:58:09 [wseltzer]
hhalpin: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/agenda.html
15:58:33 [wseltzer]
... First day, high-level overviews for level-setting; lots of Q&A, open discussion
15:58:37 [barnabywalters]
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15:58:52 [wseltzer]
... hope to understand visions, gaps, agreements and disagreements
15:59:21 [AnnBassetti]
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15:59:56 [wseltzer]
... Second day, focus on next steps, standardization strategy.
16:00:16 [wseltzer]
... Breakout groups and discussion
16:00:29 [wseltzer]
... After the workshop, W3C and OpenSocial will prepare a workshop report
16:00:32 [AdamB]
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16:00:52 [wseltzer]
... Develop concrete outcomes from the workshop and beyond.
16:01:54 [wseltzer]
hhalpin: calls for scribes
16:01:55 [Kelvin_Lawrence]
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16:02:28 [wseltzer]
AnnBassetti: volunteers to show people around IRC
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16:03:03 [wseltzer]
hhalpin: Thank you all, especially Ellen Feaney for setup, all for coming.
16:03:37 [wseltzer]
Topic: Keynote
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16:04:47 [wseltzer]
Dion_Hinchcliffe: Addressing disconnects between users, standards, and busioess
16:05:20 [hhalpin]
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16:05:22 [wseltzer]
... Dachis Group, frame a discussion of benefits, issues practitioners struggle with
16:05:23 [MichaelAlexander]
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16:05:31 [wseltzer]
... How many from industry: a few
16:05:45 [wseltzer]
... How many from technical background: many
16:05:57 [Andy_Smith]
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16:06:18 [wseltzer]
... Getting the right problem definition and requirements: What problem(s) are we trying to solve
16:07:24 [James_M_Snell]
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16:08:27 [wseltzer]
... RSS was one of the key early social standards; people were asking for it
16:08:44 [wseltzer]
... created the early social web, pull from end-users
16:08:54 [wseltzer]
... Where is the demand going to come from for social standards?
16:09:16 [wseltzer]
... How can we ensure solutions are a good fit for the problem?
16:09:23 [wseltzer]
... Successful standards are hard to create.
16:09:29 [bret]
Anyone object to closing the doors?
16:09:46 [AnnBassetti]
might get warm ... still probs hearing?
16:09:53 [wseltzer]
... W3C has been fortunate to get high-level adoption of the core HTML
16:10:38 [wseltzer]
... Key to standards adoption: Simplicity (RSS fits on 2 pages)
16:10:41 [bret]
No, I can hear fine, its cold :p
16:10:51 [AnnBassetti]
move forward?
16:10:59 [ryanjbaxter]
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16:13:33 [wseltzer]
... Universal: you can’t propose something be universal and keep control of it.
16:13:43 [wseltzer]
... Numerous standards have come but mostly gone.
16:13:46 [James_M_Snell]
Simplicity is key to success... Imperfections in the specs can be easily tolerated so long as the spec is accessible by everyone
16:13:59 [Kelvin_Lawrence]
Will we be able to get a copy of these slides?
16:14:19 [wseltzer]
i/Insufficient/scribenick: wseltzer/
16:14:40 [Kelvin_Lawrence]
Thanks
16:15:10 [benwerd_]
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16:15:23 [wseltzer]
... We expect results while deploying social mechanisms "off to the side"
16:15:35 [wseltzer]
... instead of isolating it, integrate it.
16:16:24 [wseltzer]
... Bring social together with your systems of record.
16:16:50 [wseltzer]
... Connect social media with the flow of work.
16:17:47 [wseltzer]
... How could we create a crystal-clear conception of what we want from social business architecture
16:18:15 [wseltzer]
... Make it as easy to use as the USB2 port on the side of your macbooks.
16:18:52 [wseltzer]
... Make it modular, able to talk with all the other apps and data we have.
16:19:14 [wseltzer]
... 1) federated and interoperable. Easy for anyone to plug in and extend
16:19:55 [wseltzer]
... We're surrounded by social but none of it works together
16:20:03 [wseltzer]
... That's our challenge
16:20:13 [wseltzer]
... What's missing in social standards?
16:20:23 [James_M_Snell]
Idea to consider: a "standard" social web app API.. window.social.whoAmI(callback)
16:20:35 [wseltzer]
[slide 8]
16:21:25 [ryanjbaxter]
@James but i have multiple identities, would it be different across the app?
16:21:47 [James_M_Snell]
allow apps to fill in the details behind the scenes
16:22:01 [ryanjbaxter]
what if I don't want the app to know who I am, there needs to be ways of granting access to that information
16:22:17 [wseltzer]
... Social Web doesn't look much like WWW; it's not universal
16:22:37 [ryanjbaxter]
I like the concept of the APIs being "native" though
16:22:46 [wseltzer]
... Silos of conversation impede progress
16:22:54 [James_M_Snell]
window.social.whoAmI returns the apps view of who I am... so it's limited to what data that app has access to
16:22:59 [wseltzer]
... Early social media: blogs, RSS, highly decentralized and interoperable
16:23:17 [wseltzer]
... Next era, large commercial socnets, with their own tech stacks
16:23:41 [aaronpk_]
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16:23:50 [wseltzer]
... if you're on socnet A, you may not be able to talk to people on socnet ZB
16:23:59 [wseltzer]
... network effects.
16:24:35 [wseltzer]
.... Who's our target audience for socbiz standards?
16:24:53 [wseltzer]
[slide 10]
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16:25:05 [AnnBassetti]
what was that stat? 'over 100 social networks, that can't talk to each other'? many with 100Ks of users....??
16:25:17 [wseltzer]
... consumer socnets, enterprise soc media vendors, developers, IT managers & decision makers, end-users
16:26:01 [jeff]
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16:26:02 [hhalpin]
we'll post slides on website ASAP
16:26:12 [hhalpin]
but feel free to track Dion down for that quote :)
16:26:26 [AnnBassetti]
I will ... wasn't on his slide I don't think
16:27:00 [donb]
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16:27:05 [wseltzer]
... Big issues: fragmentation.
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16:27:36 [wseltzer]
... "Hundreds of social networks with over a million users"
16:27:41 [wseltzer]
... walled gardens
16:27:55 [wseltzer]
... business models, often in direct opposition to opnness
16:28:06 [wseltzer]
... Lack of compelling critical mass of socbiz standars
16:28:26 [wseltzer]
... No "killer app" standard. How do we get there?
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16:28:38 [James_M_Snell]
Ann: keyboard jumping, eh? Telling it to sit, stay and lay down isn't helping? You try giving it a treat? Playful keyboards are always a problem
16:28:43 [wseltzer]
... It would be great if we had a fully federated social Web.
16:29:50 [wseltzer]
... need to get all networks, consumer and enterprise talking together
16:29:58 [wseltzer]
... data of record and conversations in the same place
16:30:11 [wseltzer]
... easy access to conversations, wherever you and they are
16:30:15 [wseltzer]
... portable information
16:30:34 [wseltzer]
... be able to take your social capital where you like. you created it, it's your info.
16:30:46 [wseltzer]
... Pathways: think big or think incremental
16:30:54 [wseltzer]
... Incremental: build on existing standards
16:31:12 [wseltzer]
... Revolutionary: We understand use cases, build to fit
16:31:21 [wseltzer]
... Integrative: synthesize, extend, embrace
16:32:05 [wseltzer]
... Social Media has been the biggest communications revolution ever, since the WWW
16:32:32 [James_M_Snell]
The most significant hurdles to a "fully federated social Web" are not technical, they are political and commercial... it's not apparent that the most significant socnet providers *want* to federate
16:33:25 [wseltzer]
Ashok_Malhotra: If I'm a huge social network, why would I be interested in opening up?
16:33:39 [wseltzer]
Dion_Hinchcliff: We need a motivation for them too.
16:33:45 [hhalpin]
agreed James. There's not much interest in the consumer-facing space, but we're seeing huge interest in the business space.
16:34:04 [AnnBassetti]
Theo Havinis, SymptoLogic
16:34:28 [hhalpin]
So first large ecosystem that takes advantage of standardization could get a first-mover effect in the emerging market of integrating social with business processes.
16:34:46 [wseltzer]
Theo_Havinis: How can we control spam? Facebook is a closed group, that helps keep the spam out.
16:35:02 [wseltzer]
... There's value to closed networks, e.g. in health care.
16:35:12 [James_M_Snell]
then we're not talking about a "fully federated social web"... we're talking about building trusted connections between small private socnets
16:35:55 [wseltzer]
Dion_Hinchcliff: A key component of social has been that you don't need to pre-define users
16:36:04 [wseltzer]
... in some business processes, you do need to define the users.
16:36:53 [wseltzer]
Rajav: What activities are people doing? Communicaitons, product management? What do we want them to do?
16:37:13 [Bill_Christian]
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16:37:18 [wseltzer]
Eric_Bates: UCSF, health care. We want to get health care researchers collaborating online.
16:37:23 [James_M_Snell]
Social in business == my identity at work extends out to everyone else I interact with in that capacity, including my connections, my activities, my contact details
16:37:56 [baojie]
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16:38:01 [wseltzer]
... we need open standards because academics from different disciplines won't all join the same networks.
16:38:25 [James_M_Snell]
or, my identity in [whatever community] extends out to everyone else I interact with as a member of that community
16:38:38 [wseltzer]
Ed_Krebs: Ford, we've got several different problems to solve
16:39:25 [wseltzer]
... we have three sets of scenarios. How do we manage reputatkion on the outside; inside collaboration; "inside and outside"
16:39:43 [wseltzer]
... How do we work with outside collaborators?
16:40:23 [wseltzer]
AnnBassetti: Boeing, We have our own internally built social tool
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16:40:55 [wseltzer]
... Adam will speak about it. 85k people on it, inside the company. None of the commercial products worked for us, so we built our own.
16:41:05 [wseltzer]
... We need open connections in all directions
16:41:50 [wseltzer]
... how do we build those connections while looking at security, privacy, IP, etc.
16:42:34 [wseltzer]
Ellen_Feaney: Appfusions, we're a systems integrator. Atlassian, departmentally distributed
16:42:57 [wseltzer]
... Some large organizations are top-down
16:43:30 [wseltzer]
Mark_Weitzel: OpenSocial. How do we bring social context to where we're working.
16:43:40 [James_M_Snell]
We need a clear definition of what Social *means* in business
16:43:44 [Li]
another IRC channel logging tweets, http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-07
16:43:48 [wseltzer]
... contextualized interaction.
16:44:05 [James_M_Snell]
contextualized identity
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16:44:58 [wseltzer]
Howard_Winegrad: Tibco. Simplicity is key. there's a mess of different standards now, it's horribly complicated.
16:45:00 [bret]
http://xkcd.com/927/
16:45:14 [wseltzer]
... we need simple standards. JSON is simple, email is simple.
16:45:31 [wseltzer]
... need to talk specific use cases
16:46:51 [wseltzer]
Topic: Social Business Architectures
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16:48:31 [wseltzer]
Mark_Crawford: SAP, how we approach Social Business from solution provider
16:48:40 [wseltzer]
scribenick: hhalpin
16:49:05 [hhalpin]
markcrawford: SAP
16:49:05 [hhalpin]
... Rethinking the Enterprise Social Business
16:49:05 [hhalpin]
... SAP Jam
16:49:06 [hhalpin]
scribenick: hhalpin
16:49:12 [hhalpin]
... the SAP offering in the social biz space, from SuccessFactors
16:49:18 [hhalpin]
... built on enterprise social network
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16:49:35 [hhalpin]
... social colloboration tools
16:49:50 [hhalpin]
... the social interations are necessary with customers/partners, not just sharing pictures
16:50:05 [hhalpin]
... transforming the use of social from a personal relationship to a *business* relationship
16:50:26 [hhalpin]
... its important as we're good with transactional business processes
16:50:28 [James_M_Snell]
Use case: I am an employee of Foo. In that capacity, I need to access an external community of partners and customers. When I do so, I need my identity as an employee of Foo to extend out to that community, including my reputation
16:50:34 [hhalpin]
... this only a small portion of busines
16:50:48 [hhalpin]
... most of the day-to-day interactions are non business transactions
16:50:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/07-osfw3c-minutes.html wseltzer
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16:50:58 [hhalpin]
... ordering printer, airplane ticket, etc.
16:51:05 [hhalpin]
... how can we capture that except in email?
16:51:13 [hhalpin]
... can we do that throughout our entire supply chain
16:51:23 [hhalpin]
... purpuse built social media analytics
16:52:01 [hhalpin]
... we need to tie social interactions
16:52:07 [hhalpin]
into business records
16:52:17 [hhalpin]
... thus Jam ties into analytics, cloud apps, business platform
16:52:23 [hhalpin]
... what are SAP customers doing?
16:52:32 [hhalpin]
... but we need to support hetereogenous environment
16:52:36 [hhalpin]
... with 3rd party apps
16:52:53 [hhalpin]
... lots of use-cases
16:53:03 [wseltzer]
Meeting: Workshop on Social Standards: The Future of Business
16:53:04 [James_M_Snell]
Another use case: I am an employee of Foo, my company has subscribed to a hosted service that provides various functions... my organization connections (management chain, peers, partners, etc) need to be accessible via that third party service
16:53:14 [hhalpin]
... informal learning, internal communities,HR management, supply chain, social onboarding new employees
16:53:21 [hhalpin]
... we need to integrate
16:54:06 [hhalpin]
... Facebook may not always be dominant player
16:54:06 [wseltzer]
s/scribenick: hhalpin//
16:54:08 [hhalpin]
... my kids say its passe
16:54:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/07-osfw3c-minutes.html wseltzer
16:54:40 [hhalpin]
... kids don't email, they tweet or text
16:54:46 [wseltzer]
s/into business/... into business/
16:55:09 [Li]
nobody can be the Dominant player, neither facebook, nor google. consumers avoid put eggs in one basket
16:55:11 [hhalpin]
... we need to bring business products into the way a new generation of employees operate
16:57:24 [Kelvin_Lawrence]
Mark Crawford quote "80% of employees don't use their company's social networks"
16:59:08 [AnnBassetti]
Mark Crawford: need web-based semantic standards for social content
16:59:48 [wseltzer]
Ed_Krebs: Join us in developing scenarios in the W3C Social Business CG
16:59:49 [benwerd]
(Microformats!)
17:00:03 [pius]
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17:00:21 [Bill_Christian]
is there a link to the W3C group Ed spoke of on scenarios?
17:00:58 [wseltzer]
[The community group: http://www.w3.org/community/socbizcg/ ]
17:01:14 [wseltzer]
scribenick: wseltzer
17:01:27 [wseltzer]
Ed_Krebs: How do we bundle the standards in the social space?
17:02:17 [wseltzer]
... architecture: http://www.w3.org/community/socbizcg/wiki/File:Social_ppt-JeffJ_intro_for_AC_v3-1.pptx
17:03:12 [wseltzer]
... give integration points for our architects, standards discussion, modules.
17:03:28 [wseltzer]
... At the end of the next two days, I hope you'll know whom else to talk to.
17:03:38 [wseltzer]
... I insist that my next gen platforms are based on standards.
17:03:57 [wseltzer]
... Reference architecture I'm presenting inside of Ford.
17:04:08 [wseltzer]
[slide: Reference Architecture]
17:04:20 [bret]
Sorry its already been linked, but are the slides online?
17:04:42 [wseltzer]
... highlights in papers on CG site: http://www.w3.org/community/socbizcg/
17:04:58 [AnnBassetti]
background slides of the previous 'block architecture': Social_ppt-JeffJ_intro_for_AC_v3.pdf‎
17:05:57 [harry]
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17:06:05 [AnnBassetti]
pages 9-19
17:06:10 [wseltzer]
... diagram, with social network platform in the center. that might be build or buy, start with standards around the edges
17:06:30 [wseltzer]
... We collaborate in a lot of different tools. We don't design cars in Sharepoint.
17:06:35 [AnnBassetti]
whoops: http://Social_ppt-JeffJ_intro_for_AC_v3.pdf‎
17:06:51 [harry]
scribenick: harry
17:06:57 [harry]
EdKrebs: Ed Krebs Ford
17:07:01 [harry]
... we want to purchase a enterprise social networking platform
17:09:34 [harryhalpin]
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17:09:43 [hhalpin_]
scribenick: hhalpin_
17:10:17 [hhalpin_]
edkrebs: how can we get proprietary work with other people's work.
17:10:55 [hhalpin_]
... "things on the side", I store files in 3 places
17:11:00 [hhalpin_]
... I don't want to store files in another place
17:11:40 [AnnBassetti]
Ed Krebs: need to get at the 'wisdom nuggets'
17:11:43 [hhalpin_]
... want wisdom nuggets
17:11:44 [hhalpin_]
... pulled from the network
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17:13:28 [wseltzer]
scribenick: wseltzer
17:13:35 [AnnBassetti]
scribenick: AnnBassetti
17:13:56 [AnnBassetti]
Jeff Calusinski, Don Buddenbaum ... IBM
17:14:13 [fmondin_TI]
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17:14:37 [AnnBassetti]
people don't 'get' how to hook systems together
17:15:05 [AnnBassetti]
Community Grp identifying use cases, ...
17:15:15 [AnnBassetti]
business people want to solve problems
17:16:11 [AnnBassetti]
JeffC: ++ people use Facebook, but it's an island itself
17:16:29 [AnnBassetti]
in enterprise, 'social' has to be embedded with where people do their work
17:16:45 [AnnBassetti]
tech standards will help with 'plumbing', but what is bu?
17:17:03 [AnnBassetti]
s/bu?/business context/
17:17:40 [AnnBassetti]
moving to service-based model (esp with 'cloud') ...
17:17:50 [AnnBassetti]
brings new challenges
17:18:23 [AnnBassetti]
need metrics for business scenarios, help enterprises understand how 'social' is helping
17:18:31 [hhalpin]
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17:18:46 [AnnBassetti]
better alignment of business architecture and technical architecture
17:19:07 [AnnBassetti]
need both loose coupling and tight integration
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17:19:57 [AnnBassetti]
can we enrich interactions with social feedback?
17:20:18 [AnnBassetti]
DonB: assertions... <see slides>
17:22:19 [AnnBassetti]
<btw, these minutes should also reference the Twitter stream on #osfw3c https://twitter.com/search?q=%23osfw3c&src=hash >
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17:25:57 [wseltzer]
next: Lloyd Fassett (Azteria)
17:26:09 [AnnBassetti]
sure
17:26:16 [AnnBassetti]
scribenick: AnnBassetti
17:27:05 [AnnBassetti]
Lloyd Fasset, Azteria ... from staffing realm
17:27:13 [AnnBassetti]
esp. healthcare staffing
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17:28:05 [AnnBassetti]
data and conversation aren't adequately linked yet
17:28:31 [AnnBassetti]
I'm representing a different 'process' , rather than a company
17:29:23 [AnnBassetti]
quote from Sangeet Paul Choudary, "we have 300 years of how to run businesses to create value"
17:29:52 [AnnBassetti]
... <something about new mode being between individuals, and aggregating external data>
17:30:00 [AnnBassetti]
summarized as "pipes to platforms"
17:32:22 [AnnBassetti]
when we can crowdsource from ++ diff sources, is a whole new opportunity
17:32:39 [AnnBassetti]
... but planes and cars won't be built on that info
17:33:11 [AnnBassetti]
<I add, though, that Boeing and Ford can glean ideas and feedback from the crowd>
17:33:53 [AnnBassetti]
----- ,end of panel ---
17:34:27 [wseltzer]
[Q&A, then coffee break]
17:34:50 [wseltzer]
Beth Lavender, MITRE
17:35:00 [AnnBassetti]
Beth @@ , Mitre
17:35:14 [AnnBassetti]
s/@@//
17:37:11 [AnnBassetti]
Ed Krebs, Ford -- business has to figure out what we can share (due to intellectual prop, privacy, engineering etc)
17:37:32 [AnnBassetti]
most important is if we can connect people with new people, that they need to know
17:38:11 [AnnBassetti]
Jeff C: join formal business processes with ad hoc collaboration
17:38:19 [AnnBassetti]
metrics really help
17:38:40 [harryhalpin]
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17:39:07 [AnnBassetti]
Vassil Mladjov: why do you call this 'social'?
17:39:16 [AnnBassetti]
big diff between collaboration and social
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17:39:39 [AnnBassetti]
s/Mladjov/Mladjov, Gartner/
17:40:17 [AnnBassetti]
Ed Krebs: we define collaboration as teams working together
17:40:36 [wseltzer]
EdKrebs: Collaboration is teams; social is working with connections outside, that you might not even have known existed before
17:40:50 [AnnBassetti]
... and 'social' is making connections you didn't have before
17:41:26 [AnnBassetti]
Mark Crawford: and, you want your systems to make those connections for you
17:41:40 [AnnBassetti]
... to create the interactions automatically
17:42:58 [AnnBassetti]
Lloyd Fassett: asks MarkC and EdK: how to you track processes, to minimize repetition?
17:43:44 [AnnBassetti]
EdK: bigger challenge is 'how to keep collection of comments about a paper (e.g.,) together?"
17:43:52 [Kelvin_Lawrence]
This is a good discussion of the difference between "collaboration" and "social". I have seen this question asked before and people do seem genuinely unsure of where the line is.
17:44:12 [AnnBassetti]
... notes that Twitter implemented threaded view; was to hard to track
17:44:22 [AnnBassetti]
s/to hard/too hard/
17:44:58 [wseltzer]
Kelvin_Lawrence, agreed. And remember, we can't force those outside the company into the company's preferred platform, so we need standards to meet them where they are.
17:45:32 [AnnBassetti]
Jive has concept of 'talk' to 'action'
17:46:14 [AnnBassetti]
LloydF: how to 'bake' that into a standard?
17:46:31 [AnnBassetti]
Weitzel: start with a limited set of nouns or verbs
17:47:24 [AnnBassetti]
Theo Havinis: diff layers (e.g., telephones, email, Facebook) .. each has it's own mode of communication and social
17:48:40 [AnnBassetti]
Jason R___ , OpenSocial: who cares if this is "social" or not?
17:49:08 [wseltzer]
Jason: "Is this house haunted?" "Is this social?" I don't care!
17:49:14 [AnnBassetti]
what's cool, is that Ford lets owners name their car
17:49:24 [AnnBassetti]
we call our car "Flexi" ....
17:49:38 [hhalpin]
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17:49:44 [AnnBassetti]
but Flexi can't interact with the dealer, or the garage..
17:50:06 [AnnBassetti]
EdKrebs: we've have ideas about where to take that
17:50:06 [wseltzer]
The reason to care about naming, I'd suggest, is to get the right people into the room for the right set of standards coordination.
17:50:23 [wseltzer]
The name is just a pointer to help get them involved.
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17:52:12 [AnnBassetti]
Rawn Shah: actually, we cannot plan what happens with 'social'
17:52:35 [AnnBassetti]
not necessarily a standards problem, but rather a business problem that will affect standards
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17:55:51 [AnnBassetti_]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:55:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/07-osfw3c-minutes.html AnnBassetti_
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17:57:27 [AnnBassetti_]
Rahn Shaw: businesses trust their old processes ... need to trust 'social' more
17:58:12 [James_M_Snell]
"Social" is fairly close to being meaningless actually. We ought to be much more precise in our language. "Social" encompasses "Context" (Why am I here, What is my purpose), "Identity" (Who am I right now), "Network" (Who do I collaborate with), "Data" (What information is most relevant right now) and "Activity" (What have I done, What do I need to do)
17:58:23 [AnnBassetti_]
EdKrebs: to transform your company who better than your employees, partners, et?
17:58:37 [AnnBassetti_]
s/et?/etc?/
17:59:20 [Beth]
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18:00:02 [AnnBassetti_]
example of Rahn's statement: Wikipedia that replaced an earlier way of capturing encyclopedia
18:00:26 [Beth_]
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18:02:16 [AnnBassetti_]
Matt Franklin, Open Social: does not like social vs collaboration distinction
18:02:19 [Thor]
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18:03:03 [AnnBassetti_]
Larry H .. : are we missing opportunity? users just work with one system..
18:03:04 [tantek]
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18:03:14 [AdamB]
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18:03:51 [wseltzer]
s/... Social Web/Dion_Hinchcliffe: Social Web/
18:04:18 [wseltzer]
s/... consumer socnets/Dion_Hinchcliffe: consumer socnets/
18:05:33 [AnnBassetti_]
Howard W, Tibco: don't need to limit ourselves to one type of collaboration or social
18:06:21 [AnnBassetti_]
AnnB: responding to Rahn, big companies will not give up their enteprise processes any time soon
18:06:50 [kg]
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18:07:27 [AnnBassetti_]
Beth Lavender, Mitre: what standards might we focus on?
18:07:40 [fmondin_TI]
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18:07:50 [AnnBassetti_]
what record have I just created / uploaded
18:07:58 [AnnBassetti_]
finding security
18:08:05 [AnnBassetti_]
common identity
18:08:14 [AnnBassetti_]
------------------------
18:08:22 [AnnBassetti_]
break /
18:08:24 [wseltzer]
[coffee break]
18:08:33 [wseltzer]
[return at 11:30 Pacific]
18:08:39 [wseltzer]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:08:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/07-osfw3c-minutes.html wseltzer
18:10:13 [tantek_]
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18:10:55 [James_M_Snell]
As far as "what standards" are concerned... the critical immediate task is: How do we teach our tools to better recognize and understand Context and Identity. The standards in this area are lacking most. We have OAuth for addressing part of it, but the Web Platform itself does not offer any inherent support for Context and Identity.
18:11:21 [James_M_Snell]
which is why things like OpenSocial exist... to add in that notion of "Who am I"
18:12:30 [tantek]
James_M_Snell: Are you in the room?
18:12:35 [James_M_Snell]
sadly no
18:12:38 [James_M_Snell]
couldn't make it
18:12:56 [tantek]
Darn. Would've enjoyed some in person chatting.
18:14:00 [James_M_Snell]
yes, me to
18:14:05 [James_M_Snell]
s/to/too
18:14:34 [James_M_Snell]
if there's time later today, we could set up a quick hangout
18:14:54 [tantek_]
hoping they can at least set up a hangout for tomorrow's demos
18:15:05 [donb]
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18:15:58 [James_M_Snell]
hope so, we shall see
18:17:02 [James_M_Snell]
fwiw, I'm hoping to make a run up to SF in September for a couple of days. We ought to organize an informal jam session
18:18:43 [harryhalpin]
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18:39:13 [gkellogg]
scribe: gkellogg
18:39:28 [gkellogg]
topic: Use-cases and Requirements
18:41:28 [wseltzer]
scribenick: gkellogg
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18:49:00 [gkellogg]
hhalpin: this session about use cases and business examples.
18:49:04 [benwerd]
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18:49:52 [gkellogg]
wilkinson: I'm head of engineering at Crushpath, creating a social platform
18:50:09 [LloydFassett]
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18:50:23 [LloydFassett]
demo post
18:50:52 [gkellogg]
… at myspace, we integrated with Microsoft Live product, and worked with a number of people working on exchanging social network data.
18:51:03 [gkellogg]
… Facebook deployed a version based on ???
18:51:11 [fmondin]
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18:51:13 [aaronpk]
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18:51:30 [gkellogg]
… We end up switching to JSON
18:52:15 [gkellogg]
… SocialCast used an ActivityStreams engine, based on a RDMS
18:52:35 [MichaelAlexander]
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18:53:13 [gkellogg]
… This started collaboration on OpenGraph Protocol. Many customers were using a proprietary tool, but it needed to work across a variety of platforms.
18:53:32 [hhalpin]
note that Open Graph Protocol enables the Facebook Like Button
18:54:24 [gkellogg]
… CrushPath is designed as an advertising tool, but shifted to gaming business.
18:54:38 [gkellogg]
… Key is a "pitch"
18:55:12 [gkellogg]
… Example is a business profile, but could be for hiring engineers. Focused on allowing small business to get started with marketing.
18:56:08 [gkellogg]
… Considerations when building: users are not high-tech users, so they're wary of sharing information, so focus is on client-side integration.
18:57:14 [gkellogg]
… We wanted people to be able to login with sites they're familiar with, but concerned that it might be a "weird" experience.
18:57:35 [gkellogg]
… E.G., google will ask people to create a Plus profile, and they might not be familiar with that.
18:57:58 [gkellogg]
… We use Activity Streams everywhere, as it's a good design point.
18:58:32 [gkellogg]
… Not a problem that FaceBook uses their own protocol rather than AS.
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18:59:27 [gkellogg]
… We use PubSubHubub, allowed reuse of existing tools, rather than rewriting from scratch
18:59:57 [gkellogg]
… Standards help people ship faster: there's a lot of collaboration.
19:01:17 [gkellogg]
… We use Twitter Cards because we need to, even though they don't correspond to standards.
19:01:46 [gkellogg]
… the OGP vocabulary is closed, but useful.
19:02:27 [MichaleAlexander]
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19:03:17 [gkellogg]
Meeks: Work on combining linked data with open social
19:03:48 [gkellogg]
… UCSF profiles show a lot of data about researchers, much like LinkedIn
19:04:00 [gkellogg]
… Many organizations do something similar.
19:04:09 [James_M_Snell]
native browser support for access to social data is critical
19:04:16 [Thor]
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19:04:17 [gkellogg]
… Contains deep researcher data, based on open source code created by Harvard
19:04:33 [gkellogg]
… UCSF was first group out of Harvard to use the code
19:04:52 [gkellogg]
… Added OpenSocial to allow for extending the model for our purposes
19:06:02 [gkellogg]
… Have Youtube videos on website, as researchers find that really useful.
19:06:27 [Kelvin_Lawrence]
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19:06:28 [gkellogg]
… We've been pushing other institutions to adopt OpenSocial, but there are challenges:
19:07:14 [gkellogg]
… Wake Forrest needed to get at researchers keywords; we came up with different ways of doing the same thing.
19:07:39 [gkellogg]
… The other area is on the use of the Linked Data standard; there was some perchption that it competes with OpenSocial, but they don't.
19:08:25 [gkellogg]
… LOD is supported by a lot of different solutions. Linked Open Data is like a machine readable version of a website; it's about expressing semantic data on the web
19:08:42 [tantek]
"t's about expressing semantic data on the web" (in a way that's much harder than microformats)
19:08:56 [gkellogg]
… VIVO is a competitive product based on RDF and gaining traction.
19:09:38 [gkellogg]
… We have OpenSocial on one hand and LOD on the other, how to put together?
19:09:55 [gkellogg]
… There are ways to express this in different RDF formats, but they're not simple.
19:10:19 [gkellogg]
… First thing we found was an RDF/XML to JSON converter, but it wasn't ideal and wasn't a standard.
19:10:38 [gkellogg]
… Meanwhile, JSON-LD is being developed that solves exactly these problems, and that's what we support now.
19:11:15 [gkellogg]
… Added an OSAPI.rdf adapter to allow easy extension of OpenSocial to JSON-LD/RDF
19:11:39 [gkellogg]
… JSON-LD allows the data model to be de-coupled from the API, this is a big deal.
19:12:05 [gkellogg]
… JSON is really easy to work with, and not intimidating developers is important.
19:12:27 [gkellogg]
… (VIVO's an extension of FOAF)
19:12:59 [gkellogg]
… Because JSON-LD is so easy to work with, we think more people will embrace the RDF data model
19:14:02 [gkellogg]
Boyet: Social Networking within Boeing
19:14:45 [gkellogg]
… "Connections in all directions" is our catch phrase, we want connections everywhere.
19:15:05 [gkellogg]
… We have been working on Insight a long time with about 85K profiles
19:15:17 [gkellogg]
… That's about 1/2 of the whole company.
19:15:23 [wseltzer]
s/Insight/inSite/
19:15:35 [gkellogg]
… Culture is the biggest obstacle, not technology.
19:15:55 [gkellogg]
… This allows us to find experts across the company; they can build up trust networks and make relationships.
19:16:12 [gkellogg]
… Create formal and informal teams, may require VP approval.
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19:16:44 [gkellogg]
… We want people to collaborate in the open rather than behind closed doors.
19:16:59 [aaronpk]
Did anybody catch the URL of his PDF on their inSite system from 2009?
19:17:30 [gkellogg]
… InSite built from scratch in Java and Apache. This allows users to work from use cases and turn them around, allowing Boeing to be responsive.
19:17:53 [gkellogg]
… It's integrated in with enterprise identity systems, meaning that you don't need to log in to use it.
19:18:16 [gkellogg]
… Because it's behind firewalls, content can be indexed from other systems.
19:18:49 [gkellogg]
… Boeing has large installations of many different collaborative technologies (SharePoint, Exchange, Wiki, ...)
19:19:20 [gkellogg]
… We're researching social collaboration on the factory floor; they don't have their own devices and share workstations.
19:19:36 [gkellogg]
… Culture much different than people working at desks.
19:20:11 [gkellogg]
… External customers want to use InSite for their own purposes.
19:20:51 [gkellogg]
… Challenges are to make InSite profiles available to other applications; want the user profile to travel with them as they move around the company.
19:21:01 [AnnBassetti]
it's not so much that external customers want to use inSite .. rather that we'd like to be able to 'socially' collaborate external using inSite
19:21:30 [gkellogg]
… Expertise profiles are not just user-declared, but can be asserted by peers.
19:21:48 [gkellogg]
… How to get out of sharePoint and into other systems?
19:22:44 [gkellogg]
… We've created a simple web framework to allow anyone to create presence information from anywhere. Through ActivityStreams and a profile widget that you can add anywhere.
19:23:08 [gkellogg]
… Finally, authentication is a nightmare
19:23:27 [gkellogg]
… It's a big barrier for products to exchange information.
19:24:47 [gkellogg]
… Examples of seating for people by expertice
19:25:00 [gkellogg]
s/seating/searching/
19:25:44 [gkellogg]
Ding: Memory Connected: Extending Memory on the Web ...
19:26:24 [gkellogg]
… Started from big data created by humans
19:26:44 [gkellogg]
… Walled gardens have kept this formation from getting out.
19:27:46 [gkellogg]
… Our brains can host about 2.5 Peda-bytes, but information is contained in silos with small amounts of information
19:27:58 [gkellogg]
… Leverage laptop to bridge the silos
19:28:28 [gkellogg]
… Eventually, leverage a cell phone to extend the brain (through access to information)
19:29:12 [gkellogg]
… Working from human-centered design. Things like RDF allow user to tell the computer what they want, but we also need to make sure knowledge is readable and sharable between users.
19:29:58 [gkellogg]
… developers favor data formats which are more readable (Turtle vs RDF/MXL)
19:30:20 [gkellogg]
… Exposing everything through URLs may be diffcult
19:30:45 [gkellogg]
… For example, we want to read our emails, headers are typically hidden.
19:31:33 [gkellogg]
… Just-in-time knowledge scheme.
19:31:50 [gkellogg]
… Better ways to access data than keyword search
19:32:17 [gkellogg]
… Tangible rewards and cost reduction
19:32:34 [gkellogg]
… Make it easy to do things and have an instant reward
19:32:50 [gkellogg]
… tweets are instant, blogs take much more time to be digested
19:33:43 [gkellogg]
… SCRUM process to allow issues to be solved in a short amount of time.
19:34:18 [gkellogg]
… spreadsheets are about the best tool created so far, we need to learn from this interaction method to give immediate rewards.
19:35:01 [gkellogg]
… Bottom-up growth scales
19:35:22 [gkellogg]
… E.g., twitter hash-tag is consensus based and extremely effective
19:35:48 [gkellogg]
… JSON and CSV are well adopted
19:36:03 [gkellogg]
… Looking at mailing lists and realtime conversation.
19:36:26 [gkellogg]
… Also look at common knowledge within a team; are we reaching consensus, or is this a fantasy of the project manager?
19:37:08 [gkellogg]
… Vision is extended memory on a phone or laptop, which is organized to be more useful than it is now.
19:37:31 [gkellogg]
… Important to exchange this information between people through brokers (e.g., google)
19:38:24 [evanp]
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19:39:11 [gkellogg]
Schutzer: Thoughts on the Requirements for Social Networking
19:39:17 [AnnBassetti]
@aaronpk the link for Adam's original talk at TPAC09 is http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/Boeing-tpac09.pdf
19:39:24 [aaronpk]
thank you!
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19:40:04 [gkellogg]
… social standards must meet business needs
19:40:29 [gkellogg]
… members don't usually build their own internal tools: rely on SharePoint, Twitter, etc.
19:40:49 [gkellogg]
… Customers are using tablets/mobile much more than laptops
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19:41:13 [gkellogg]
… People often care multiple devices for personal/business needs
19:41:34 [gkellogg]
… People maintain contacts for themselves, not out of business loyalty
19:42:16 [gkellogg]
… security and privacy, risk and compliance are really important.
19:42:30 [gkellogg]
… We don't really have security/privacy controls.
19:42:48 [gkellogg]
… We like to learn about customers from social media, but need to protect information
19:42:58 [gkellogg]
… Need to protect customers _from_ social networks
19:43:16 [gkellogg]
… Email and apps may impersonate an business entity
19:43:45 [gkellogg]
… Risk and Compliance, necessary for fraud investigations and disclosure requirements
19:44:05 [gkellogg]
… If employees talk about stocks, this could cause financial/legal problems
19:44:22 [gkellogg]
… Employee's personal sites could also violate policy
19:44:48 [gkellogg]
… goals are required so that dominant social networks want to comply
19:45:15 [gkellogg]
… finding minimal standards we can agree upon really important.
19:45:41 [gkellogg]
… Privacy controls which are consistently implemented and imported/exported would work well.
19:45:57 [gkellogg]
… This allows a consistent way to talk about platforms.
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19:47:14 [gkellogg]
Boyet: We investigated OpenSocial, but started before it was availble.
19:47:32 [gkellogg]
… It was simpler to use our own framework, and make it easy to install and administer.
19:47:49 [gkellogg]
… Makes it simple to get information out.
19:48:17 [gkellogg]
… Constantly updating, re-archtecting and open to change.
19:49:00 [gkellogg]
questioner: monica used terse, open-ended and extensible. These are great characteristics.
19:49:58 [gkellogg]
… Eric mentioned that having teenager information backed into basic profiles is an impediment to adoption. If you're corse entity is really terse but extensible, and let people develop they're own data models rather than baking them into the core model.
19:50:43 [gkellogg]
… Developers may have 2- or 4-week release cycles, we need to accommodate such rapid change.
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19:51:12 [evanp]
James_M_Snell: are you at the event?
19:51:16 [evanp]
danbri: also, you?
19:51:24 [gkellogg]
meeks: the data model thing is a real problem, there is no one-size fits all.
19:51:51 [James_M_Snell]
evanp: sadly no
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19:52:08 [gkellogg]
… Getting to the linked data point in the first place isn't triveal
19:52:10 [James_M_Snell]
re: data model... we don't need one size that fits all right now
19:52:42 [James_M_Snell]
we need to start with: how do we access the data in a standard way, before we build enough common patterns for the data model
19:52:58 [gkellogg]
questioner2: we're struggling around identifying expertice, two people looking for the sam thing should see different things, because context is different.
19:53:15 [gkellogg]
… Is there a way to contributed identified information back to social network.
19:53:26 [tantek]
process q? how do we get on the Q&A queue? Zakim?
19:53:28 [James_M_Snell]
re: "one profile everywhere"... we don't need that either. Our user agents need to learn to understand who we are and to provide that info to our applications
19:53:49 [tantek]
q+ to ask who is shipping something that creates permalinks on the open web vs. just behind the firewall?
19:53:56 [tantek]
well, that didn't work, no Zakim I guess
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19:54:12 [tantek]
q+ to ask who is shipping something that creates permalinks on the open web vs. just behind the firewall?
19:54:38 [gkellogg]
… need to integrate collaboration tools
19:55:05 [wseltzer]
James_M_Snell, interesting thought re context as a role for the browser
19:55:05 [tantek]
"we have more lawyers than developers" … " don't quote me on that"
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19:55:39 [gkellogg]
… companies are going to do what they need to do, even if social standards don't address.
19:56:07 [James_M_Snell]
my mobile phone has a better sense of who I am than my employer or any of the individual cloud services I use
19:56:19 [tantek]
and Lunch interrupt supercedes all other queues ;)
19:56:30 [tantek]
<br class="h-x-lunch"/>
19:56:48 [wseltzer]
heh
19:57:05 [wseltzer]
that's quite a queue
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20:58:08 [wseltzer]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:58:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/07-osfw3c-minutes.html wseltzer
21:01:52 [Thor]
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21:03:26 [evanp]
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21:03:31 [wseltzer]
Topic: Social Standards Architecture
21:04:13 [wseltzer]
Bryan_Sullivan: challenges: security, privacy, data ownership: trust
21:04:54 [wseltzer]
... scalability in a global mobile environment
21:05:06 [sam]
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21:05:24 [tantek]
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21:06:09 [Andrew_Mallis]
ATT deployed the first mobile PUSH system in the US, based on WAP.
21:06:34 [AdamB]
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21:07:01 [wseltzer]
... user experience; identity management
21:07:22 [lloydfassett]
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21:07:42 [lloydfassett]
Social Networking Web SNew
21:08:11 [evanp]
What's SNEW?
21:08:43 [lloydfassett]
it is based upon things that are already out there like Salmon PSHB, Ostatus
21:10:01 [wseltzer]
... Federation requires capability exchange, under control of user (privacy)
21:10:04 [lloydfassett]
Challenges to cover include federation, privacy (and control of the user)
21:10:18 [ni291187]
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21:10:32 [wseltzer]
scribenick: lloydfassett
21:10:54 [lloydfassett]
Activity Streams templates to standardize some workflows
21:11:09 [AnnBassetti]
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21:11:17 [lloydfassett]
like NFC, Augmented Reality, 2D barcodes
21:11:39 [lloydfassett]
OpenId Foundation has a lot of momentum behind it.
21:11:52 [ni291187]
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21:12:01 [lloydfassett]
Multi-Factor identificaitons
21:12:21 [lloydfassett]
expects to see more to come from the Open Identity Foundation
21:14:05 [lloydfassett]
Application Resource Optiimizer is available to share connections on mobile phone. Created by AT&T
21:14:31 [evanp]
lloydfassett: I can scribe also if needed
21:14:42 [Kelvin_Lawrence]
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21:15:08 [lloydfassett]
Fabio Mondin Telecom Italia presents
21:15:24 [ni291187]
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21:15:51 [lloydfassett]
Social - Content Revolution. A Vision for the Future Social Oriented Networking.
21:16:11 [AnnBassetti]
scribenick: lloydfassett
21:16:45 [lloydfassett]
The FP7 eCOUSIN - content centric and social aware
21:16:58 [lloydfassett]
to improve network efficiencies
21:17:15 [lloydfassett]
4 use cases
21:17:53 [lloydfassett]
Two individuals meet on vacation and want to share information
21:18:07 [benwerd]
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21:18:19 [tantek]
if anyone here (at Tank 18) has their own domain and uses it, see me for a red sharpie (to mod your badge)
21:19:00 [lloydfassett]
They want to share media files from different systems like video
21:20:14 [lloydfassett]
Reduce network usage through social collaboration
21:20:55 [lloydfassett]
3rd make the network location centric and not content centric
21:21:58 [lloydfassett]
4th place content closer to final user in order to reduce network load, videos of a concert can be published and consumed in physically close locations.
21:22:33 [rawn]
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21:23:04 [lloydfassett]
Use cases common needs are monitoring, look-up and networking (making network aware of social content and how it will be consumed)
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21:23:51 [lloydfassett]
Jason Roygary, Senior Board Member on Open Social and IBM Collaboration
21:23:58 [lloydfassett]
Talking about things around events and roles
21:24:15 [lloydfassett]
IBM use case prototype showed pain points.
21:24:30 [hhalpin]
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21:24:36 [lloydfassett]
Mobile, events, roles and people are hot topics.
21:24:37 [tantek_]
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21:25:26 [lloydfassett]
Motorola 1973 New York City, worlds first cell phone call. He called Joe Engle at Bell Labs to mock his competitors.
21:25:50 [lloydfassett]
Use case, demonstrated at a conference, might be demonstrated tomorrow
21:26:12 [lloydfassett]
Logistics company..keeps track of trucks and events in an Activity Stream.
21:26:54 [lloydfassett]
Different people with different roles can have embedded events in the stream, in real time.
21:27:22 [lloydfassett]
UX is through a mobile device.
21:27:55 [lloydfassett]
They created a couple buckets, PSHB, LOD, Messaging payloads
21:28:07 [lloydfassett]
they discrovered there are no role based profiles
21:28:45 [lloydfassett]
MQRR was used for PSHB, JSON-LD for Linked Data
21:29:15 [lloydfassett]
wanted to build apps easier, still wanted to deal with roles
21:29:29 [lloydfassett]
thinks Roles is the killer app in Social Business
21:30:14 [fmondin_TI]
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21:30:24 [lloydfassett]
hasn't heard call for volunteers to figure out Roles. That will be a part of creating kick butt apps.
21:31:09 [lloydfassett]
Presenter: Asok, Oracle, Property Graphs
21:31:20 [lloydfassett]
we should write a standard for Property Graphs
21:31:47 [AnnBassetti]
s/Asok/Ashok Malhotra/
21:32:02 [lloydfassett]
Oracle isn't a social networking company, they create software.
21:32:15 [lloydfassett]
They want to do useful things with the data social networks create
21:32:31 [evanp]
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21:32:41 [lloydfassett]
they require a data model standard
21:33:25 [lloydfassett]
Socialn networds are using property graphs and "mine" their networks, some tools are available but
21:33:28 [MichaelAlexander]
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21:33:35 [lloydfassett]
all of them have a different data model
21:34:08 [lloydfassett]
declarative or navigational interface
21:34:39 [lloydfassett]
Node/edge model, edges have properties, can be modelled in RDF
21:35:27 [lloydfassett]
Example from Tinkerpop
21:36:02 [lloydfassett]
Property Graph Model / a set of nodes and a set of edges
21:36:14 [lloydfassett]
details are different between graphs
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21:37:09 [lloydfassett]
W3C should start a community to standardize property graphs, the other to standardize the vocabulary for relationships and properties
21:37:35 [wseltzer]
Oracle is willing to create a member submission to seed the first CG (standard for property graphs)
21:37:38 [lloydfassett]
Oracle is willing to create a member submission to seed the first CG
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21:38:25 [lloydfassett]
Keith from Cisco asked why RDF is not a good fit to Asok
21:39:01 [lloydfassett]
Asok: it doesn't quit fit well because the arc has to have a property, which needs a subject. That doesn't feel natural
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21:39:15 [lloydfassett]
Can we modify RDF?
21:39:45 [lloydfassett]
Asok would think about it for a while. Personally you could add stuff to RDF, possibly easier direction.
21:40:29 [lloydfassett]
Kelvin from IBM; interested in graph topic...looked at opensource world and it's vibrant
21:40:41 [lloydfassett]
we can't ignore work that's done before when looking at graphs
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21:41:32 [lloydfassett]
challenge is to find the right area to work on. he's interested in hearing more. How do I export profile information? Possibly through graphs.
21:41:55 [lloydfassett]
Open Social has some solutions that could aply
21:42:49 [lloydfassett]
commentor: how we define a property graph standard. hesitant to modify RDF. There's a reason people have developed other standards.
21:43:01 [lloydfassett]
keeping it simple is important.
21:43:54 [lloydfassett]
Asok: we're starting to speak about what we should do? Once it's started we can discuss the options
21:44:27 [lloydfassett]
Commentor: Is there a more elegant way to deal with non-textual data?
21:45:41 [lloydfassett]
Ed Krebs: He's on board with roles. None of us wears a single hat. How do you do context switching? Does the system have some intelligence?
21:46:23 [tantek]
I'm a bit surprised anyone here is taking RDF seriously for anything. Actually not that surprised. But seriously?
21:46:28 [lloydfassett]
Jason got Ed to volunteer to contribute to working on it. Jason is starting around individual apps
21:47:01 [tantek]
is anyone who is "working on" something actually have something now? (URL?) or is this all hypothetical wishlist stuff?
21:47:09 [lloydfassett]
The bigger model around multiple roles and contexts need to be worked through from a basic model.
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21:47:30 [James_M_Snell]
tantek: Yes, there are pieces that exist now
21:47:43 [tantek]
James_M_Snell - citation needed
21:47:52 [James_M_Snell]
http://activitystrea.ms
21:48:11 [James_M_Snell]
:-)
21:48:12 [lloydfassett]
Brian: not sure roles are specific..it ties in with identity and trust...it is an inhibitor to adoption
21:48:13 [tantek]
I see a spec overview page that hasn't been updated in ages
21:48:35 [tantek]
and nothing on http://activitystrea.ms/ actually itself uses ActivityStreams
21:48:44 [James_M_Snell]
sigh.. yes, that is true
21:48:46 [tantek]
so no - I dispute "exist" except maybe "on paper"
21:49:02 [James_M_Snell]
there are bits and pieces that exist today, but no one has a complete picture
21:49:02 [lloydfassett]
commentor (Cisco): roles are a fundamental part of the model. You have to take into account people have multiple roles or the fundamental model will not be applicable.
21:49:49 [lloydfassett]
correction (TIbco)
21:50:15 [lloydfassett]
the products he's involved in treat roles as something users can have more than one of
21:50:21 [tantek]
James_M_Snell - as far as the public / open web is concerned - I see little to no actual deployment of ActivityStreams (and *I* myself have an Atom ActivityStream on my site)
21:50:48 [lloydfassett]
Mark Weitzel to Boeing: how do you deal with roles?
21:51:05 [tantek]
James_M_Snell: http://indiewebcamp.com/activitystreams#Lack_of_selfdogfooding
21:51:06 [James_M_Snell]
tantek: yes, adoption has been light on the public / open web.
21:51:10 [lloydfassett]
Boeing: they don't handle it or manage it. They have properties on the user.
21:51:22 [tantek]
if it's not adopted on the public web, it's a dead end technology
21:51:23 [lloydfassett]
They are all internal only roles to Insite (their app)
21:51:26 [James_M_Snell]
we have product that uses it, and I know others are using it
21:51:35 [James_M_Snell]
but it's mostly closed environments
21:51:42 [James_M_Snell]
walled gardens
21:51:45 [tantek]
plenty of ActiveX plugins in closed environments too
21:51:55 [lloydfassett]
Jason thought the Boeing process of handling expertise could be an interesting part of a role.
21:53:30 [lloydfassett]
AT&T: from a W3C perspective the way the internet works, people have relationships with advertisers and others. The scalability of managing roles is critical to making things work.
21:54:40 [lloydfassett]
TIBCO: talked about information flow between doctor and patient. The kinds of permissions each person can do in these roles are limited. Same as in enterprise applications.
21:55:10 [lloydfassett]
some information can be shared between doctors, it's different with other kinds of information and purposes.
21:55:34 [James_M_Snell]
tantek: very true... and fwiw, I agree with you, there's too much spec writing and not enough real problem solving going on
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21:56:19 [lloydfassett]
Rawn Shawn: context can describe limits. We have roles and transactions in the process world. In the social world we know transactions exist, but there is a significant switching of contexts.
21:56:57 [Andrew_Mallis]
Roles are being referred to in relation to agency (transactional), but they also are impactful when we speak about identity.
21:57:28 [lloydfassett]
Jason: that is lesser of issues in the contexts we're looking at. We need to the right questions. We blundered into this problem by trying to solve a use case
21:57:53 [lloydfassett]
commentor: how would RDF and OWL fit into this? You can have two IRI's for the same thing.
21:58:26 [lloydfassett]
commentor: provinence was discovered as important later.
21:59:17 [lloydfassett]
Ellen: LDAP is a hidden db. you don't know who's role is what.
22:00:08 [lloydfassett]
Ellen: the lack of transparancy in AD and LDAP are the problem.
22:00:57 [lloydfassett]
Jason: I think it's possible that secret IT things may be coming to an end because the richness of profiles is creating significant pull for social.
22:01:35 [James_M_Snell]
Role = Identity + Context
22:01:55 [lloydfassett]
Wendy Seltser: Transparancy, roles, context. What could we be doing to reinforce the users ability to recognize when context has shifted. W3c usually does not promote a UI.
22:02:00 [James_M_Snell]
Role = Who am I at a given moment and Why
22:02:13 [lloydfassett]
maybe we could display to users how they are participating.
22:02:54 [lloydfassett]
Jason: I think about the implications of this in Germany. We get into interesting cultural challenges.
22:03:41 [lloydfassett]
AT&T: we have effective aims that focus our attention on a particular application, the browser. Too much focus on that, more on expectations to help people to undersand your graph.
22:04:02 [bret]
Why don't people use existing and widely deployed microformats instead of RDF?
22:04:25 [Andrew_Mallis]
Role relationships would be important. Teacher to Parent, Student to Student.
22:04:54 [lloydfassett]
eBay Collaboration: we built a collaboration and then it didn't work with BYOD. Why don't we have one browser so this pain will go away?
22:05:29 [wseltzer]
s/Seltser/Seltzer/
22:05:58 [lloydfassett]
AT&T: Open Web Testing platform is where should look. W3C is building a comprehensive system to validate how apps work in browsers.
22:06:56 [lloydfassett]
Jason: you just put fuel in your car. You don't wonder if it will work. We need standard testing.
22:07:22 [lloydfassett]
ItalyTelecom: even one browser will not address multiple mobile devices.
22:07:35 [wseltzer]
[W3C's standards testing efforts aim to make sure the technologies work interoperably on all browsers and devices. See http://testthewebforward.org/ ]
22:08:15 [lloydfassett]
Mark thought the gas analogy was great, until everyone starts driving electric
22:08:38 [lloydfassett]
Ann B: leaned on eBay to join W3C. We need participation.
22:09:16 [lloydfassett]
Harry H: eBay is a member. Jeff Hodges from Paypal is managing it.
22:09:24 [James_M_Snell]
We don't necessarily need participation for writing yet another spec... we need participation to build usable, useful common tools
22:09:27 [James_M_Snell]
APIs
22:09:29 [James_M_Snell]
browser-support
22:09:39 [James_M_Snell]
common data models
22:09:40 [tantek]
"There are companies that don't use HTML" [like the folks presenting PDF or Powerpoint today]
22:10:08 [lloydfassett]
Harry: We need to ensure interop before we endorse a standard. There will be a test sweet (mentioned above).
22:10:09 [AnnBassetti]
haha, Tantek .. on the money
22:10:32 [tantek]
James_M_Snell - re: too many specs, not enough implementations. For this reason I don't believe in any more format efforts that do things with anything other than HTML.
22:10:41 [tantek]
JSON is syntactic sugar for devs
22:10:55 [tantek]
formats should be defined in HTML first, with a mapping to canonical JSON.
22:10:56 [bret]
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22:11:08 [tantek]
defining formats in JSON first is putting the dev cart before the publisher horse
22:11:35 [bret]
very much so
22:11:40 [James_M_Snell]
tantek: I deal with a lot of third party integration that does not operate at the HTML/UI level
22:12:02 [James_M_Snell]
at that level, an HTML based data format doesn't make sense
22:12:18 [tantek]
more HTML publishers than all such third parties put together
22:12:19 [James_M_Snell]
but I ought to be able to take the same basic data model and apply it in both JSON or HTML
22:12:20 [tantek]
by far
22:12:27 [tantek]
any non-HTML effort is fighting a losing battle
22:12:27 [lloydfassett]
TIBCO: we use origin for security context within the browser. We shouldn't focus on language specific API's. The core is more around the payload, produced by Ruby and consumed by JS doesn't matter.
22:12:37 [tantek]
JSON should be side-effect of well structured HTML
22:12:38 [bret]
can someone put the irc log link into the topic?
22:12:39 [James_M_Snell]
tantek: so what? that doesn't make the non-html cases any less valid
22:12:40 [wseltzer]
Howard: Is personal/role context similar to origin-restriction? are we trying to help people protect themselves from context-phishing?
22:12:46 [lloydfassett]
ASOK: I agree with you but some people would prefer their own hybrid interfaces
22:12:47 [wseltzer]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:12:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/07-osfw3c-minutes.html wseltzer
22:12:53 [tantek]
it makes designing for them first less valid
22:13:07 [wseltzer]
rrsagent, pointer?
22:13:07 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2013/08/07-osfw3c-irc#T22-13-07
22:13:25 [wseltzer]
[break]
22:13:45 [wseltzer]
wseltzer has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/agenda.html IRC log: http://www.w3.org/2013/08/07-osfw3c-irc
22:16:25 [James_M_Snell]
Standard browser support for social ... +1
22:16:32 [James_M_Snell]
window.social.whoAmI(callback)
22:16:48 [James_M_Snell]
let the user-agent tell the application who I am and what role I'm currently playing
22:17:09 [James_M_Snell]
window.social.whoIKnow('@friends',callback)
22:17:43 [James_M_Snell]
let the user-agent tell the application who my network is based on what it knows about my identity and my role... all with my permission of course
22:17:45 [bret]
James_M_Snell: have you seem mozilla's social API?
22:18:21 [James_M_Snell]
bret: yes, bits and pieces of it at least. I need a refresher
22:18:33 [James_M_Snell]
bret: have their been recent updates?
22:18:46 [bret]
its the closes thing to what you are asking for that actually works right now
22:19:17 [bret]
yes, it started as F1 (an extension) and now is in firefox as a supported API. Facebook supports it, if you want to test it out
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22:23:45 [James_M_Snell]
bret: that kind of functionality ought to be browser standard, with the data dependent on the users Identity, current context and role..
22:24:50 [James_M_Snell]
so if I'm on facebook or a fb connected site, window.social.whoAmI returns my FB identity... but if I'm on IBM's Social business infrastructure and I'm using a third party integrated service, window.social.whoAmI returns my IBM social identity
22:26:07 [Zakim]
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22:26:37 [bret]
James_M_Snell: the API is open to anyone to use. Im sitting next to someone who is using it to post onto their own website
22:27:06 [bret]
In terms of getting it onto other browsers, its yet to be seen
22:27:25 [bret]
but its the closest to anything *like* a social api standard
22:27:29 [bret]
for browsers
22:27:30 [benwerd]
(I'm that person, and it really should be a cross-browser standard. Just Firefox for now though.)
22:28:59 [James_M_Snell]
bret: I'm more than willing to help do whatever I can to help promote and move that forward...
22:33:03 [James_M_Snell]
bret: btw, I have a working prototype using HTML5 custom elements and shadowdom to enable a window.social API in chrome
22:33:16 [James_M_Snell]
Using polymer polyfill
22:33:53 [James_M_Snell]
import the custom element, drop <ibm-social /> onto the page, and the window.social API is enabled.
22:37:16 [bret]
James_M_Snell: the developer behind the Social API from mozilla is here
22:37:53 [James_M_Snell]
bret: sadly I'm only "here" virtually.. participating via IRC and twitter only
22:38:10 [bret]
*doh*
22:38:33 [bret]
I don't think he is on his computer atm.
22:40:17 [James_M_Snell]
We need to take some time to reconcile things like the mozsocial manifest, schema.org/Action handlers, web intents, web finger etc... so user-agents can learn to better understand their users and the services they use
22:40:41 [James_M_Snell]
then how to make that info available to apps through a standard browser api
22:42:04 [wseltzer]
topic: Federating the Social Web
22:42:15 [wseltzer]
[returning from break]
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22:44:15 [bret]
what lets my access that info? I missed that
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22:46:32 [James_M_Snell]
bret: right now, when an application wants to know your location, it asks the browser, the browser asks you, "Do you want to share?"
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22:46:55 [bret]
right, social api is a similar mechanism
22:47:05 [bret]
a browser feature that website can access
22:47:10 [bret]
or ask to
22:47:22 [James_M_Snell]
browser then works with the user to determine identity, context, etc
22:47:53 [James_M_Snell]
right now, if an apps have to do all the identity stuff themselves
22:48:02 [James_M_Snell]
why not build OAuth support into the user-agent
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22:48:11 [James_M_Snell]
Google Services as an example...
22:48:24 [aaronpk_]
James_M_Snell: I will be talking about that tomorrow actually
22:48:35 [James_M_Snell]
aaronpk: +1
22:50:30 [wseltzer]
Gregg Kellogg: LD: when you name things, name them using URIs
22:51:43 [James_M_Snell]
bret & aaronpk: when I log into a site, and the useragent says, "Hey, do you want me to remember your identity?" ... the user-agent and the identity provider can interact to establish the right identity... more than just saving a user name and password
22:52:38 [hhalpin]
e/me let me remind EvanP it's his turn to scribe
22:53:03 [bret]
How is the json-ld data typically stored? Is it a mirror of html content, like rss and atom typically are?
22:53:09 [tantek]
bret - who knows
22:53:42 [bret]
Any examples in the wild that I can go look at?
22:53:59 [tantek]
bret - good question
22:54:16 [bret]
json obviously, is all over the place
22:54:25 [bret]
but this -ld extension
22:54:29 [hhalpin]
As fror the storage, I'd hope it would be stored in some graphstore like Mongo but not sure how messy this is. Seems like starting a keyword with (at) sign makes life a bit tricky.
22:54:57 [tantek]
hhalpin - any real world examples of such? or is this is all hopeful handwaving?
22:55:44 [evanpro]
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22:56:05 [evanpro]
Zakim: scribenick evanpro
22:56:09 [nhsieh]
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22:56:11 [evanpro]
I think
22:56:21 [James_M_Snell]
don't get hung up on the -ld extension... focus on the json part
22:56:31 [James_M_Snell]
any json can be json-ld depending on how you process it
22:56:42 [aaronpk]
why is this different from returning HTML info and using <a> tags to link HTML documents together?
22:56:49 [bret]
i see that -ld is an effort to standardize vocabulary, but for what
22:57:02 [James_M_Snell]
json-ld to me means making use of a common data model
22:57:17 [evanpro]
Graph definition allows specifying graph of JSON data
22:57:20 [bret]
but how is it stored/accessed?
22:57:39 [James_M_Snell]
well... for anything really.. using json-ld as a bridge, for instance, I can model schema.org data model in activity streams json
22:57:41 [evanpro]
JSON-LD includes syntax for rich data types
22:57:45 [bret]
and is it a replica of a web page? database?
22:58:05 [evanpro]
Possible to express named graphs
22:58:17 [evanpro]
Basic system is RDF
22:58:33 [evanpro]
Example: Activity Streams 2.0 which is JSON-LD
22:58:44 [hhalpin]
tantek - JSON-LD is still pretty new - thus, I think it falls in "handwaving" category. But it is already getting traction from Google etc.,
22:58:56 [evanpro]
There are standard transformations between JSON and XML versions
22:58:59 [James_M_Snell]
concrete example... {"@context": {"objectType":"@type", "person": "http://schema.org/Person", "displayName": "http://schema.org/name"}, "objectType": "person", "displayName": "Joe"}
22:59:08 [evanpro]
json-ld.org has more information
22:59:17 [tantek]
James_M_Snell - yes that's an example. nothing concrete about it
22:59:28 [tantek]
anything you can find anyone publishing at actual URLs on the open web?
22:59:32 [evanpro]
Ed Krebs "The need for a PubSubHub and how social plays into this need"
22:59:32 [bret]
what is google doing with json-ld
22:59:49 [tantek]
bret - I'm calling BS unless someone provides a URL. [citation needed]
23:00:09 [evanpro]
Ed is using the term PubSubHub to mean a different thing from PubSubHubbub
23:00:16 [evanpro]
Call it Ed's middleware
23:00:19 [tantek]
"are you trying to say PubSubHubbub?" "No, I'm saying PubSubHub"
23:00:28 [tantek]
(nervous laughter)
23:00:40 [evanpro]
hhalpin: I don't know if I set myself up as scribe correctly
23:00:45 [bret]
:]
23:00:55 [hhalpin]
Given that JSON-LD is just JSON, Mongo/Couchbase that can take native JSON can also take JSON-LD.
23:01:04 [hhalpin]
That is how I would store it at least.
23:01:24 [James_M_Snell]
tantek: I've got this mental image of you as the grumpy old troll, lol ;-) ...
23:01:25 [evanpro]
Example of PubSubHub: "Flip Style mobile reader"
23:01:51 [bret]
What part of fliboard? the fold in the middle part or the rss reader?
23:01:51 [tantek]
James_M_Snell - asking for citations is trolling?
23:01:58 [James_M_Snell]
tantek: I'm being silly
23:02:01 [hhalpin]
https://developers.google.com/gmail/schemas/reference/formats/json-ld
23:02:07 [evanpro]
Uses information from business systems, which are sent to an enterprise social system
23:02:09 [bret]
thanks hhalpin
23:02:09 [tantek]
thx hhalpin
23:02:39 [evanpro]
... which in turn drives a mobile reader
23:02:55 [hhalpin]
I'm not sure if there is *actually* momentum for JSON-LD. Obviously there is for JSON. And obviously graph-store dataformat need to be standardized. Nonetheless, the RDF data-model may or may not be perfect fit.
23:03:08 [hhalpin]
I'd like to hear various opinions on this about how it is.
23:03:31 [tantek]
hhalpin - yet to see an actual use case that needs JSON-LD above and beyond "just JSON"
23:03:34 [hhalpin]
for end-developers re storing/using JSON-LD vs. just sticking to JSON vs. using whatever else.
23:03:36 [bret]
The beauty of JSON was that it was already there before the name was applied
23:03:45 [tantek]
and while you're doing "just JSON" - you can publish that trivially with HTML+microformats2
23:03:51 [hhalpin]
I think the idea of JSON-LD is just sticking URIs into JSON
23:03:54 [evanpro]
They push information about car part availability into their activity stream
23:04:10 [tantek]
hhalpin - funny, sticking URLs into HTML seems to be much more well understood/adopted.
23:04:15 [hhalpin]
The trick is via the @context, which I guess can just be defaulted in some way (perhaps in spec).
23:04:41 [evanpro]
And potentially other application actions
23:04:42 [evanpro]
Within the mobile reader they want to provide social actions
23:04:51 [tantek]
hhalpin - sounds like the classic, don't understand the problem? add a layer of abstraction (@context).
23:05:00 [aaronpk]
my HTML has a JSON representation: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/08/07/3/osfw3c.json
23:05:04 [evanpro]
e.g. approve or deny a purchase order
23:05:24 [hhalpin]
JSON-LD is just adding URIs+links to JSON, which sounds sensible - so ideally, JSON can then be a data-version of the HTML. However, this does hit the maintenance issue that tantek correctly brings up and fixes re microfoamts.
23:06:00 [hhalpin]
the question is whether or not it makes sense to push stripped down HTML with markup that is easily made into JSON (i.e. microformats) or just ship the data around direclty (JSON, JSON-LD)
23:06:02 [evanpro]
Ed's middleware ("PubSubHub") provides identity, and can connect to the enterprise social platform
23:06:15 [tantek]
hhalpin - exactly. much easier to maintain your data *once* in the HTML+microformats2 which automatically generates JSON, than maintain it *twice* in HTML and JSONLD.
23:06:17 [hhalpin]
I'm OK with either to be honest, but would like to hear more pro and against each approach.
23:06:29 [hhalpin]
Yes, I have long-agreed with your opinion on that tantek.
23:06:44 [evanpro]
Includes some roles and access control
23:06:45 [bret]
aaronpk: can you add an object with a key pair that describes how the json was generated (IE "generated with mf2php from my html")
23:06:47 [tantek]
hhalpin - stripped down HTML with markup that is easily made into JSON (i.e. microformats) works and easier to debug in browsers *today*.
23:06:55 [aaronpk]
bret: look at the bottom :)
23:06:55 [James_M_Snell]
json-ld let's us very easily map the same microdata data in html and json without jumping through a bunch of hoops
23:06:56 [evanpro]
"You can share to here but not to here"
23:07:04 [tantek]
hhalpin - why is it so hard to communicate the maintenance problem?
23:07:14 [bret]
derp
23:07:19 [tantek]
my guess is that folks advocating duplicate data have very little experience with actual maintenance of real world content/systmes.
23:07:25 [tantek]
*systems
23:07:40 [andybs]
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23:07:43 [bret]
My atom feed constantly breaks as I develop my site
23:07:55 [evanpro]
PubSubHub system is extensible such that new business systems can feed data into the middleware without changes to all the rest of the servers
23:08:31 [bret]
Im down, lets use pubsubhubbub
23:08:39 [evanpro]
Sam Goto talking about Action schema in schema.org
23:08:50 [evanpro]
Information on http://schema.org/Action
23:09:02 [ni291187]
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23:09:11 [evanpro]
"a taxonomy of verbs"
23:09:27 [evanpro]
The requirements for actions: model past, present, future activities
23:09:31 [evanpro]
model discovery and execution of activities
23:09:40 [bret]
are these based off of Activity streams?
23:10:14 [evanpro]
bret: no. yes. maybe.
23:10:17 [tantek]
sounds like a fork
23:10:21 [bret]
o.0
23:10:34 [tantek]
wow mentioning web intents (which Google killed months ago)
23:10:36 [evanpro]
similar to web intents or web actions or soap
23:10:44 [evanpro]
<sorry for the editorializing>
23:11:14 [evanpro]
It would be good for Google to know that there are actions allowed with Web services
23:11:22 [evanpro]
e.g. Netflix is for watching movies
23:11:45 [bret]
oh right, gmail json stuff from IO this year
23:12:24 [evanpro]
use case: rich experience in Gmail
23:12:53 [evanpro]
use case: Google+ interactable activities when sharing a site
23:13:00 [bret]
what is more human readable, :p G+ redesign or the JSON representation (There is one right?)? Only teasing
23:13:08 [James_M_Snell]
schema.org/Action was going to be a fork at first
23:13:15 [James_M_Snell]
then there was push back
23:13:31 [James_M_Snell]
And collaboration
23:13:34 [James_M_Snell]
Cooperation
23:13:35 [James_M_Snell]
etc
23:13:36 [James_M_Snell]
Beer
23:13:39 [bret]
thats good
23:13:41 [James_M_Snell]
you know, important stuff
23:13:43 [evanpro]
use case: search
23:13:44 [bret]
:)
23:14:17 [bryan_]
there are two "action" entries under schema.org, e.g. http://schema.org/action is about muscles... confusing
23:14:29 [evanpro]
use case: google now can include action information
23:14:50 [James_M_Snell]
OpenSocial calls this "Embedded Experiences" .. has their own model for it
23:15:01 [James_M_Snell]
that needs to be reconciled
23:15:23 [evanpro]
Goals of Action schema:
23:15:28 [evanpro]
Rich set of nouns
23:15:31 [evanpro]
Disambiguation
23:15:37 [tantek]
schema is non-starter due to lack of RF patent for consuming schema
23:15:37 [evanpro]
Structure for synonyms
23:15:51 [evanpro]
Contextual arguments
23:15:55 [evanpro]
Execution and handling
23:15:59 [evanpro]
Structured composition
23:16:10 [evanpro]
Principles:
23:16:20 [evanpro]
verbs are types on actions
23:16:34 [evanpro]
They have arguments - semantic roles for the verb
23:17:35 [James_M_Snell]
tantek: yeah, that's definitely a problem
23:17:43 [evanpro]
They involved linguists in the process
23:17:44 [tantek]
you have rights to publish only
23:17:45 [tantek]
read the TOS
23:17:51 [evanpro]
And developed a big hierarchy of verbs
23:18:00 [tantek]
http://schema.org/docs/terms.html
23:19:30 [bryan_]
that's a lot easier than just saying "i bought outliers on amazon"
23:20:04 [James_M_Snell]
tantek: that's a large part of why trying to rely on a one-size-fits-all data model isn't going to work yet
23:20:38 [tantek]
not sure what you mean by that James
23:20:57 [evanpro]
OPENi is for innovation in mobile applications
23:21:03 [evanpro]
improves interop
23:21:08 [evanpro]
improves the trust model
23:21:18 [evanpro]
and brings new open source app framework
23:21:35 [evanpro]
MyLife app is for consumer social data
23:21:56 [evanpro]
OPENi also works on advertising framework
23:22:09 [evanpro]
And personalized in-store shopping experience
23:22:43 [evanpro]
Learned from their analysis: too many APIs
23:22:45 [James_M_Snell]
tantek: I mean, some folks wanna use schema.org, others want to use {insert data model name here}.
23:22:52 [evanpro]
>140 APIs reviewed
23:23:01 [tantek]
James_M_Snell - SEO spammers use schema
23:23:04 [tantek]
there's no ecosystem there
23:23:09 [tantek]
because no one else is allowed to consume
23:23:10 [James_M_Snell]
for some, schema.org is a non-starter, for others, {insert data model name here} is a non-starter
23:23:11 [tantek]
it
23:23:21 [evanpro]
They're providing a single API
23:23:30 [evanpro]
And include privacy by design
23:23:47 [tantek]
James - except others have open licenses
23:23:53 [tantek]
whether JSONLD, RDFa, microformats etc.
23:23:59 [tantek]
for publishing/consuming/parsing etc.
23:24:05 [tantek]
so this is a very different problem
23:25:03 [evanpro]
OPENi framework expects consumers to hold own data in "cloudlets"
23:25:35 [evanpro]
developers can use data based on consumer opt-in
23:25:59 [evanpro]
And put them all in a single structure
23:26:12 [evanpro]
OPENi classified multiple APIs
23:26:23 [James_M_Snell]
tantek: yes, my point is that whatever standardized social apis we have, or whatever "standardized tools" are provided, they need to be independent of the data model, and independent of any possible licensing issues those models are tied to
23:26:24 [tantek]
James_M_Snell, anyone using or advocating for schema-org examples/markup/vocabulary is supporting a Google patents-reserved position. Not open.
23:26:34 [tantek]
Has no business in any W3C discussions.
23:26:34 [evanpro]
They use Graph API for identity, and Activity Streams to address them
23:26:36 [evanpro]
JSON format
23:26:48 [tantek]
nor examples
23:26:49 [tantek]
nor specs
23:26:58 [tantek]
search w3.org/TR for "schema.org" and find the violators.
23:27:42 [jeff]
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23:28:33 [evanpro]
It includes context API
23:28:51 [evanpro]
App can define a context
23:30:50 [evanpro]
Questions
23:31:01 [evanpro]
Questions for PubSub: XMPP considered?
23:32:14 [evanpro]
Ed: XMPP is one candidate for what he's doing
23:34:14 [evanpro]
XMPP is a good example for federation: technical and business issues come up early
23:34:23 [evanpro]
IM is a good reference point
23:34:42 [bret]
I lost all faith in xmpp when google dropped it
23:35:10 [bret]
but I hear it is a mess when it comes to the actual spec vs all of the different implementations
23:35:34 [bret]
Pubsubhubub is Pubsub for the web
23:35:43 [evanpro]
q: why should vendors get on board for federation?
23:36:19 [evanpro]
Different kinds of commercial service differentiate on some features
23:36:58 [bret]
I want to know that too evanpro.
23:37:13 [AnnBassetti_]
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23:37:22 [evanpro]
Doing a poor job of it I think
23:37:41 [evanpro]
bret: I'm trying to scribe
23:38:39 [evanpro]
Q: how important is context to the audience?
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23:42:04 [evanp]
Zakim: scribenick evanp
23:42:11 [evanp]
I hope that's the right way to do that
23:42:13 [tantek]
really don't understand all these "context" discussions
23:42:44 [evanp]
tantek: is it something technical that I don't understand?
23:43:38 [evanp]
ISTR there is some security term
23:45:32 [evanp]
Federation user experience: is it possible to share between servers
23:45:42 [evanp]
Some sharing of data between systems is possible, and you can fake it
23:47:07 [tantek]
"most important thing is that it's shipped" [about federation]
23:47:11 [tantek]
"user-centric models"
23:47:27 [tantek]
"so we can look at the important stuff, models of interaction, without having to worry too much about specs on the front-end"
23:47:29 [evanp]
tantek asks that federation standards have open IP standards
23:47:39 [tantek]
evanp - unlike schema
23:47:54 [tantek]
per: http://tantek.com/2013/219/t19/osfw3c-contrast-microformats2-cc0-owfa-ogp-schema
23:48:00 [evanp]
audience: federation should allow distributed control
23:49:07 [AnnBassetti_]
question: who supports / likes schema.org
23:49:41 [AnnBassetti_]
should've been a "don't know" vote taken ...
23:51:24 [James_M_Snell]
Supports / Likes any given {thing} is not particularly useful or helpful
23:52:00 [evanp]
my question: relationship between Action schema and activity streams
23:52:19 [James_M_Snell]
Evan: There is no direct relationship between Action schema and Activity Streams
23:52:19 [evanp]
sam answers based on some discussions
23:52:40 [James_M_Snell]
Activity Streams 2.0 fixes some things and aligns with JSON-LD
23:52:41 [evanp]
probably some alignment
23:53:07 [James_M_Snell]
via JSON-LD, you can use the AS 2.0 syntax to represent Schema.org defined concepts
23:53:10 [evanp]
(hard when I'm asking questions and scribing at the same time)
23:53:18 [James_M_Snell]
evanp: understood
23:53:43 [James_M_Snell]
but Activity Streams 2.0 != schema.org/Action
23:54:16 [James_M_Snell]
you can use AS 2.0 without *any* reference to JSON-LD or Schema.org
23:54:32 [evanp]
opening later is poor
23:54:45 [James_M_Snell]
and you can use Schema.org/Action without any reference to Activity Streams 2.0
23:54:47 [evanp]
tantek points out that patent license for schema.org
23:54:53 [evanp]
tantek says that discussion should happen on the public system earlier
23:55:01 [evanp]
does not grant license for consumers
23:55:02 [AnnBassetti_]
+1 to Tantek pinging Google on openness
23:55:57 [James_M_Snell]
Ann: +1
23:56:19 [evanp]
monica asks: does schema.org want to work on activity streams?
23:56:37 [James_M_Snell]
the ActivityStrea.ms group is open to all
23:56:42 [evanp]
question of activity streams uptake
23:56:44 [James_M_Snell]
anyone can join and participate
23:56:47 [James_M_Snell]
anyone can implement
23:57:40 [James_M_Snell]
it ought to be noted that schema.org/Action proposal started out very different
23:57:58 [evanp]
James_M_Snell: good point
23:58:06 [evanp]
We also have explicit patent license for work done
23:58:48 [James_M_Snell]
**IF** AS 2.0 does get published as an RFC, that wouldn't change
23:59:12 [evanp]
harry points out that some work can be done to allow further use
23:59:44 [James_M_Snell]
I don't believe anyone in the Activity Streams community has any desire to *tie* AS to schema.org or any other particular model