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15:08:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/07-css-irc
15:08:44 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:08:44 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 52 minutes
15:08:48 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:57:38 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:45 <Zakim> +plinss
15:58:29 <Zakim> +??P2
15:58:33 <glazou> Zakim, ??P2 is me
15:58:33 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:58:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:58:59 <jdaggett> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:58:59 <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
15:59:04 <antonp1> antonp1 has joined #css
15:59:30 <Zakim> +krit
15:59:42 <Zakim> +Bert
15:59:48 <krit> krit has joined #css
15:59:51 <Zakim> +Plh
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16:00:19 <Zakim> +rhauck
16:00:44 <Zakim> +??P13
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16:01:25 <Zakim> +Stearns
16:01:28 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
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16:01:51 <Zakim> +SylvaIng
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16:02:08 <Zakim> +??P18
16:02:23 <jdaggett> egads
16:02:40 <Dael> Dael has joined #css
16:02:44 <SimonSapin> Zakim: ??P18 is me
16:02:49 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P18 is me
16:02:49 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:03:08 <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk
16:03:12 <Zakim> +briankardell
16:03:46 <Zakim> +dael
16:04:25 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:04:28 <SimonSapin> Can I have Zakim somehow recognize me automatically when calling from SIP?
16:04:33 <Zakim> +??P24
16:04:36 <glazou> SimonSapin, in theory… yes
16:04:41 <glenn> zakim, ??p24 is me
16:04:41 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
16:04:47 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:04:50 <SimonSapin> glazou, ideas how?
16:04:59 <Zakim> +Lea
16:05:20 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou, jdaggett, krit, Bert, Plh, rhauck, ??P13, Stearns, SylvaIng, SimonSapin, shezbaig_wk, briankardell, dael, dbaron, glenn, fantasai, Lea
16:05:26 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
16:05:33 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:05:40 <Zakim> +hober
16:05:44 <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
16:05:44 <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
16:05:54 <SimonSapin> ScribeNick: SimonSapin
16:07:14 <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0686.html
16:07:24 <SimonSapin> Topic: letter-spacing and font-variant ligatures
16:07:40 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: Font spec has different ways that OpenType features can be specified
16:07:52 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: font-features-settings, ???
16:08:16 <stearns> I prefer to demote precedence of font-variant
16:08:27 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: Other CSS properties that enable/disable font features
16:08:36 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: there is a precedence in the spec
16:08:51 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: font-variants and font-feature-settings override other CSS properties
16:08:54 <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk.a
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16:09:19 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: example from fantasai: if an author sets ligatures with font-features, this disables letter-spacing
16:09:43 <SimonSapin> dbaron: override that letter-spacing normally disables ligatures
16:10:02 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: proposal: move it to the bottom, so letter-spacing takes priority
16:10:20 <koji> koji has joined #css
16:10:32 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: other proposal is to allow font-features, which is lower level, to take priority
16:10:49 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:10:57 <leaverou> I'm afraid this will be confusing to authors ("why aren't my ligatures working?!"). If this behavior is undesired, can't they manually disable ligatures?
16:10:59 <koji> zakim, [ipcaller] is me
16:10:59 <Zakim> +koji; got it
16:11:35 <SimonSapin> dbaron: I’m uncomfortable putting things between font-variants and font-feature-settings because font-feature-settings is lower level
16:12:14 <SimonSapin> fantasai: Authors want font-variant’s behavior in most cases
16:12:36 <SimonSapin> fantasai: consider higher-precendence controls in Level 4
16:13:32 <SimonSapin> fantasai: if we want we could put font-feature-settings at the bottom
16:13:44 <SimonSapin> fantasai: wanting that level of override is gonna be pretty rare
16:13:59 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: concerned about having sthing overly complex for authors
16:14:25 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: CSS properties should not be setting font features as much as possible
16:14:46 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: it’s confusing of other CSS properties have side effects on what they’re setting
16:15:00 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: some crazy combinations are not good
16:15:21 <SimonSapin> fantasai: I’m ok either way
16:15:29 <jerenkrantz> zakim, shezbaig_wk.a has me
16:15:29 <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
16:15:42 <fantasai> jdaggett: I'm ok either way [ font-feature-settings last or next-to-last]
16:15:49 <SimonSapin> stearns: I prefer having font-feature-settings be that low-level hatch that you don’t normally use
16:16:40 <SimonSapin> dbaron: I wouldn’t object. It’s weird that the override syntax is so different from normal syntax, but I’d be ok with this
16:16:54 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: resolve? need other people?
16:17:13 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: should resolve on putting it in-between font-variants and font-feature-settings
16:18:00 <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: precedence of other CSS properties is in-between font-variant property and font-feature-settings property
16:18:11 <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0411.html
16:18:14 <glazou> 'text-combine-horizontal' and font features (writing modes)
16:18:57 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: wording in spec that says when you enable text-combine-horizontal to something other than the default, it causes the full-width value of font-variant to be ignored
16:19:06 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: I think authors don’t want that
16:19:20 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: not clear when they want to set full-width on in this case
16:19:35 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: using full width glyphs is not what you want
16:19:48 <SimonSapin> fantasai: setting on an element doing PCY (?)
16:20:03 <fantasai> s/PCY/TCY/
16:20:12 <fantasai> tate-chu-yoko
16:20:22 <SimonSapin> fantasai:
16:20:31 <fantasai> fantasai: Not concerned that an author would set this together with TCY on a single element
16:20:45 <fantasai> fantasai: but rather, request full-width glyphs for, say, all the paragraph text
16:20:55 <fantasai> fantasai: and end up with full-width glyphs in a TCY run within that paragraph
16:20:59 <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0042.html
16:21:07 <fantasai> fantasai: It's the same situation as with text-transform, which we're already overriding
16:21:24 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: text-transform and full-width value look the same but are very different
16:21:38 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: full-width changes codepoints and thus orientation
16:21:49 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: that’s why authors would want to use it in the first place
16:22:13 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: some fonts don’t have the right glyphs, need to use the full width codepoints
16:22:59 <SimonSapin> fantasai: no reason to use full width glyphs in TCY, should to an implicit text transform
16:23:37 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: other properties that affect what digit glyphs are selected
16:23:55 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: conflict with TCY where we pick glyphs to combine
16:24:17 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: specifying full-width glyphs on a paragraph is strange for digits that are gonna be rotated
16:24:29 <SimonSapin> fantasai: could specify it together with text-orientation:upright
16:24:54 <Zakim> -Lea
16:24:54 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: not a common pattern, shouldn’t add little exceptions for poor authoring choices
16:25:10 <SimonSapin> fantasai: I don’t think it’s poor choices, might want to do that
16:25:31 <SimonSapin> fantasai: might prefer to stay within the same font that have fallback
16:25:44 <Zakim> +Lea
16:26:21 <SimonSapin> dbaron: I think the burden of demonstrating use cases it on the person asking for more complexity
16:26:57 <SimonSapin> dbaron: is this a use case we care about? Are ppl writing vertical text without font support?
16:27:20 <glazou> krit, http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2013
16:27:32 <glazou> krit, add the section please
16:27:49 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: some fonts have the same glyphs for full-width and not, only spacing around it changes. Same result in vertical text
16:28:19 <glazou> sgalineau, lol
16:28:21 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: japanese fonts always upport full-width codepoints, but may not support the feature
16:28:30 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: text-transform is what you want to use
16:28:55 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: mixing latin and japanese fonts gives no good result as latin fonts don’t have vertical metrics
16:29:45 <SimonSapin> glazou: we have at least one objection
16:30:07 <SimonSapin> glazou: take this to the mailing list
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16:30:31 <glazou> or withdraw objection
16:31:02 <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0154.html
16:31:04 <SimonSapin> Topic: 'text-combine-horizontal: all' value and inheritance (writing modes)
16:31:42 <SimonSapin> fantasai: problem is that we have two diffeent kinds of values for text-combine-horizontal
16:31:50 <SimonSapin> fantasai: one scans for digits to put in a TCY run
16:32:03 <SimonSapin> fantasai: other value taks the whole content of an element into TCY
16:32:14 <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk
16:32:24 <jdaggett> ex: <date>2013年１２月２１日</date>
16:32:31 <SimonSapin> fantasai: on an element that has lots of content,
16:32:51 <SimonSapin> fantasai: including sub elements
16:32:57 <jdaggett> that will produce *two* tatechuyoko combinations
16:33:17 <SimonSapin> fantasai: the TCY won’t take effect because of the rule of not doing it with element boundaries inside a TCY run
16:33:30 <SimonSapin> fantasai: we don’t want impls to deal with the complexity
16:34:07 <glazou> krit, +1 on ftf agenda item you suggested, did the very same suggestion to plinss seconds ago
16:34:13 <SimonSapin> fantasai: side effect is that in this case, it will not for a TCY run itself, but because text-combine-horizontal inherits, descendants may or may not do TCY randomly
16:34:17 <glazou> yo TabAtkins
16:34:21 <SimonSapin> fantasai: want 'all' to be non-inheritable
16:34:43 <SimonSapin> fantasai: one way to handle that is to make it a shorthand for two properties, one of which inherits
16:35:01 <Zakim> +TabAtkins
16:35:12 <SimonSapin> fantasai: other suggestion: keep it inheriting, but ignore 'all' if the parent also has 'all'
16:35:25 <SimonSapin> Rossen: equivalent to not inheriting?
16:35:33 <SimonSapin> fantasai: kindda, except in CSSOM
16:35:47 <Bert> (Or: if both the vhild and the parent have 'all', apply it to the child only?)
16:35:48 <dbaron> I prefer the second option.
16:35:53 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: background, talking about 2~3 character spans
16:35:59 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Regarding system colors, http://tabatkins.github.io/specs/css-color/Overview.html#system-colors
16:36:08 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: no need to design complex behavior for nesting
16:36:27 <SimonSapin> dbaron: option 2 sounds fine for me
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16:36:58 <SimonSapin> dbaron: the way to spec it is that 'all' does TCY when the parent does not have 'all', otherwise like 'none'
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16:37:31 <SimonSapin> fantasai: it would break koji’s example
16:37:42 <dbaron> option 2 is "keep it inheriting, but ignore 'all' if the parent also has 'all'"
16:37:51 <SimonSapin> fantasai: text-combine-horizontal:all in an element, and inside that element have a span with text
16:38:19 <SimonSapin> dbaron: if you want that case to work, should ignore the rule for ignoring things that have elements in them
16:38:44 <SimonSapin> Bert: what about reversing parent/child? [see above]
16:38:58 <SimonSapin> Rossen: now you have to look forward, layout becomes more complex
16:39:22 <SimonSapin> Rossen: at any point, no idea whether something else is supposed to handle this
16:39:48 <SimonSapin> Rossen: would prefer non-inherit by default […]
16:40:04 <SimonSapin> dbaron: that doesn’t work for the 'digits' value
16:40:10 <SimonSapin> jdaggett?: which is the common case
16:40:40 <SimonSapin> fantasai: multiple properties is the only way to get different inheritance behaviors
16:40:48 <SimonSapin> fantasai: or maybe hack something with 'auto'
16:41:01 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: keep focus on actual use cases
16:41:10 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: few examples of nested elements with TCY
16:41:25 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: keep exceptional cases as simple as possible
16:42:04 <SimonSapin> dbaron: what existing content would it break?
16:42:38 <koji> <span style="text-combine-horizontal:all"><span>12</span></span>
16:43:23 <Bert> (<x style="..:all:><y>AB</y><y>CD</y></x> could make *two* TCYs...)
16:44:24 <SimonSapin> fantasai: avoid element boundaries so that implementations don’t have to deal with the complexity
16:45:13 <stearns> data point on creating a fonts/text task force: 75% of call so far
16:45:20 <SimonSapin> dbaron: I’m find with what jdaggett is proposing if we have example of elements inside of TCY
16:45:26 <glazou> stearns, yeah :(
16:46:04 <SimonSapin> glazou: take this to email?
16:46:34 <SimonSapin> Bert: text-decoration property sort of inherits, maybe do something similar?
16:47:38 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0109.html
16:47:41 <SimonSapin> Topic: Next charter
16:48:00 <SimonSapin> Bert: charter runs out in september, we’re already too late
16:48:13 <SimonSapin> Bert: takes a few weeks to discuss the draft, I will be drafting
16:48:32 <SimonSapin> Bert: AC review takes 2~3 weeks plus same for objections
16:48:47 <SimonSapin> Bert: won’t be a problem, we’ll get an extension to bridge the gab
16:48:53 <SimonSapin> s/gab/gap/
16:49:12 <SimonSapin> Bert: priorities? Which drafts can we finish, etc
16:49:24 <SimonSapin> Bert: what can we finish in the next two years
16:49:33 <SimonSapin> Bert: list of CRs in the email
16:50:09 <SimonSapin> glazou: setup a wiki page of all specs? with expected completion date set by editors
16:50:43 <SimonSapin> glazou: that’s one of the options
16:50:48 <SimonSapin> Rossen: let’s go with it
16:51:17 <SimonSapin> glazou: Bert’s list only contains current CRs, some drafts could move faster
16:51:28 <plh> q+
16:51:33 <SimonSapin> Bert: I’ll add the drafts to the list
16:51:54 <SimonSapin> plh: drafts that the group can foresee will start
16:51:54 <dbaron> can't hear plh
16:52:02 <jdaggett> hard to hear plh
16:52:15 <SimonSapin> plh: that are not yet started
16:52:34 <glazou> XMLCSS !
16:53:30 <dbaron> plh: Also good to get upcoming work items into the charter, for patent policy.
16:53:56 <dbaron> glazou: Hard, since we rely on proposals for new work from the members.
16:54:42 <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: do we have proposals that are not drafts yet?
16:54:47 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: font load events
16:54:57 <SimonSapin> dbaron: that was split from another spec
16:55:42 <SimonSapin> Topic: Selectors 4
16:55:54 <SimonSapin> fantasai: issues still open
16:56:05 <SimonSapin> fantasai: do people have other issues, concerns, ?
16:56:18 <SimonSapin> fantasai: figure out how to move the draft forward
16:57:02 <SimonSapin> glazou: does :dir() rely on the direction property?
16:57:07 <SimonSapin> fantasai: it does not
16:57:13 <SimonSapin> fantasai: also some renaming
16:57:27 <SimonSapin> fantasai: also what to have in the fast vs. complete profile
16:57:43 <SimonSapin> glazou: issue a call for review? Give people 2 weeks
16:58:01 <SimonSapin> glazou: it’s a big spec, lots of changes from L3
16:58:39 <dbaron> I'm still uncertain about: the reference and column combinators, :matches() syntax, and the subject indicators.  (That's after a quick skim; might have missed something.)
16:58:59 <SimonSapin> ACTION everyone: review Selectors 4 within the next two weeks
16:58:59 <trackbot> Error finding 'everyone'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
16:59:04 <glazou> dbaron, yeah the column combinator seems a bit special to me too
16:59:10 <glazou> SimonSapin, use "all"
16:59:20 <SimonSapin> ACTION all: review Selectors 4 within the next two weeks
16:59:20 <trackbot> Error finding 'all'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
16:59:24 <glazou> lol
16:59:36 <dbaron> I'm also unsure about the priority being high enough that we should give everyone a 2 week deadline.
16:59:48 <Zakim> -rhauck
16:59:50 <plh> regrets for next week
16:59:53 <Zakim> -jdaggett
16:59:56 <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk.a
16:59:56 <bkardell> bye
16:59:59 <Zakim> -SylvaIng
17:00:01 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:00:02 <Zakim> -Stearns
17:00:02 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:00:04 <Zakim> -hober
17:00:05 <Zakim> -dael
17:00:05 <Zakim> -Lea
17:00:07 <Zakim> -glazou
17:00:07 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:00:07 <Zakim> -koji
17:00:08 <Zakim> -Bert
17:00:09 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:00:12 <Zakim> -krit
17:00:16 <Zakim> -briankardell
17:00:18 <Zakim> -plinss
17:00:23 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:00:24 <Zakim> -Plh
17:00:42 <Zakim> -??P13
17:03:46 <Zakim> -glenn
17:03:47 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:03:47 <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, glazou, jdaggett, krit, Bert, Plh, rhauck, Stearns, SylvaIng, SimonSapin, shezbaig_wk, briankardell, dael, dbaron, glenn, fantasai, Lea, hober, Rossen, koji,
17:03:47 <Zakim> ... jerenkrantz, TabAtkins
17:04:13 <glenn> zakim, bye
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17:16:00 <antonp> (I was following on IRC!)
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20:17:51 <TabAtkins> dbaron: What was your concern about :matches() syntax? Naming, or something else?
20:18:01 <dbaron> TabAtkins, maybe at 3pm?
20:18:09 <TabAtkins> dbaron: And are you going to bring up the other issues on list, or are they simple enough to discuss now?
20:18:24 <TabAtkins> dbaron: Yeah, I'm leaving these for you whenever you're ready - I hear you in the meeting that fantasai's in.
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