00:13:55 RRSAgent has joined #webapps 00:13:55 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/31-webapps-irc 00:14:02 RRSAgent: this is dom3 00:14:02 I'm logging. I don't understand 'this is dom3', Travis. Try /msg RRSAgent help 00:14:19 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 00:15:13 Spec should define the order of keydown, beforeinput, keypress and input for a key press and of keydown, compositionstart, beforeinput compositionupdate, compositionend, input. 00:15:29 for IME. 00:15:57 I like the order which I wrote above. 00:16:07 Masayuki: agreed 00:16:14 sounds good 00:16:28 Do we have any disagreement on the current proposal for beforeinput? 00:16:29 Excellent, that was my next question. I was going to ask you about a preferred event order. ^_^ 00:16:43 where is the definitive 'beforinput' proposal? 00:17:02 Travis: only what's in 22070 and from our last teleconf 00:19:03 I mentioned at last teleconf. Is the beforeinput is a good name? I mean that input is fired for *any* change of editor. However, before input should be fired only for the user input. 00:19:41 The beforeinput event is supposed to be general. 00:19:43 E.g., it shouldn't be fired for "Undo", "Redo" and "Paste". 00:19:51 Yes 00:19:51 I honestly can't think of a better name for it. 00:20:22 "keyinput"? 00:20:32 chaals has joined #webapps 00:20:37 yeah, speech or hand writing 00:20:49 I think "userinput"? 00:21:27 The textinput event is a special case of beforeinput. 00:21:58 The name beforeinputevent was specified elsewhere (I forget which spec makes mention of it). 00:22:51 I imagine that there was a big discussion before they came to consensus on beforeinputevent... 00:23:48 What are people's preferences for beforeinputevent vs. textinput? 00:24:13 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html mentions something on beforeInputEvent. 00:24:14 If we have textinput, do we need to always have beforeinput? 00:24:25 Is that generating too many events? 00:25:58 textinput is already implemented on IE and WebKit by different way (IIRC). So, not using "textinput" doesn't cause any compatibility issues. 00:26:23 WebKit implements 'textInput' 00:28:16 Yeah, I was confused by the case of "I" at writing testcase :( 00:28:32 What are the differences between the proposals for textinput and beforeinput? 00:28:46 textInput: 00:28:50 beforeinput is cancellable. 00:29:01 textInput is not cancellable 00:30:46 beforeinput doesn't give any indication of *what* has changed. 00:30:54 What event interface does each use? 00:31:23 IE had a "TextEvent" interface for "textInput" with fields for "data", "inputMethod", "locale". 00:32:15 beforeinput would use what? KeyboardEvent? 00:32:21 Event? 00:33:00 beforeinput _will_ need an event interface that contains the data that _will be_ inserted (if not cancelled) 00:33:56 I think that beforeinput should have attributes which stores inputting text, modifier key state and whether it's fired for key or composition. 00:34:03 textinput = i'm only interested in keyboard event 00:34:17 beforeinput = i'm interested for all user input 00:34:20 Is this right? 00:35:05 Travis: agree for the beforeinput 00:35:24 If we merge these two together into beforeinput, does that cover most scenarios? 00:36:21 Masayuki raised an issue in the bug about cutting/pasting. 00:37:13 I understood that the main purpose of beforeinput is replacing keypress event and it's available for composition too. 00:37:44 keypress is cancellable? 00:37:51 garykac: Yes 00:37:56 Travis: yes 00:38:44 Our solution to replace keypress must be cancellable. 00:38:45 marcosc has joined #webapps 00:40:01 If we made textinput cancelable, then it does effectively replace the keypress. 00:41:34 Travis: it might be possible, but I worry about the compatibility issue with older textinput (textInput). 00:41:56 Note to self: we can't just standardize keypress because we would need to change its behavior in a few areas (the return value for keyCode/charCode/firingorder?/) and those would break the web. 00:42:21 yeah, on WebKit textInput event is dispatched after DOM modification 00:42:46 Masayuki: textInput was intended as a replacement for keypress (because keypress is not consistent across browsers). beforeinput is a general way of handling input events like textinput. 00:43:15 Masayuki: Hence, it would be nice if we could merge textinput into beforeinput (to reduce the number of events fired). 00:43:32 Do we really need both textinput and beforeinput to fullfill all scenarios? 00:43:37 garykac: I don't think so. 00:43:48 garykac: yes, therefore, I believe that defining new event, beforeinput, is the best way. 00:47:12 Here's where I think we are: 00:47:16 I think that we don't need to worry about the cost of firing textinput (textInput). If the cost is expensive, the browsers should check whether there is one or more event listeners for it. 00:47:23 Add a definition for beforeinput into DOM3Events 00:47:31 Make beforeinput cancellable 00:48:02 Make beforeinput be associated with a new Event interface (BeforeInputEvent), which has at least one field for the "data" 00:48:11 Travis: but it should NOT be cancellable while composition. 00:48:29 Hmm, why? 00:48:47 (Maybe "value" or "input" -- since "data" may already be in use) 00:48:48 Masayuki: why not? what problems does it cause? 00:49:05 Travis: because we have no way to cancel only one compositionupdate of native IME on any platforms. 00:49:56 We can just make it cancelable immediately before compositionend, though. 00:50:22 Could beforeinput be fired after compositionend? 00:50:57 smaug has joined #webapps 00:52:29 typically on windows key events will be VK_PROCESS while IME is on 00:52:49 compositionend is just a notification of the result of composition. 00:53:27 I assume the each beforeinput should be followed by an 'input' event. 00:54:20 So it seems that the events should be : keydown, ... compositionbegin/update/end ... beforeinput, input 00:54:57 garykac: agree 00:54:58 Does that work? Not allowing beforeInput to fire until compositionend has signaled the end of the composition? 00:55:19 That way we could cancel beforeinput without impacting the IME events 00:55:26 garykac: If so, web apps cannot check the modified value with compositionupdate event, is it OK? 00:56:07 If they want to see the modified IME events, can't they get that info from the composition events? That seems reasonable to me. 00:56:50 I think that beforeinput should be fired immediately before compositionupdate (not cancellable) and immediately after compositionend (cancellable). 00:57:45 What's the value of firing beforeinput before compositionupdate? Can't you get everything you need from the compositionupdate event? 00:58:10 masayuki: firing beforeinput before compositionupdate, and if the beforeinput event is cancelled, user agent doesn't fire compositionupdate and doesn't update .value either? 00:58:48 That way, we don't have to define beforeinput as sometimes cancelable, but other times not-cancelable. 00:59:17 garykac: I believe that it's worthwhile web apps can handle all user input only with beforeinput even during composition. 01:00:13 masayuki: yes, I agree 01:00:35 kochi_ho_: I don't think so, even if preventDefault() of beforeinput before compositionupdate is called, browser don't change the later behavior. 01:01:08 masayuki: so compositionupdate will be dispatched anyway? 01:01:14 During compositionupdate, no input is being proposed - it's just a candidate at that point. It's not about to be inserted until the compositionend event fires. 01:01:28 So, technically, it doesn't seem like it's "input" yet. 01:01:39 kochi_ho_: I think so. 01:02:27 garykac: "input" event is also fired after compositionupdate. 01:02:36 masayuki: if beforeinput before compositionupdate is cancelled, that means the app doesn't want the .value to be modified, so if any DOM modification doesn't occur, compositionupdate won't fire either? no? 01:03:20 (if chrome/ff follow the order of composition update as IE9+) 01:03:26 Masayuki: does it make sense for 'input' to fire after each compositionupdate? I'm not sure it does. what use cases does that support? 01:04:08 garykac: apps like google suggest can only have to handle input event? 01:04:32 I think that the spec becomes a lot easier if the beforeinput/input events don't fire until after all the composition events are done. 01:04:53 kochi_ho_: If browser doesn't modify compostion string in their editor, IME has modified composition string. Such difference shouldn't occur. 01:05:47 masayuki: ah, ok, so IME has the modified string anyway. 01:06:04 kochi_ho: but apps should be able to ignore compositionevents if they're not interested in them. If beforeinput fires during the middle of composition, then I receive these extra beforeinput/input events that I'm not necessarily expecting. 01:06:11 garykac: yes. like google suggest needs the input events after compositionupdate. 01:06:50 I'm not sure it *needs* them. It could just have an eventhandler for compositonupdate events. 01:07:15 kochi_ho: yes. If we allow such state, composition string and candidate list will be different. 01:07:22 It seems like a slight convenience for an edge case at the cost of a much more complex event specification. 01:07:24 (I personally wish we have a spec that forbids modifying .value during composition...) 01:08:32 garykac: anyway, currently, all browsers fire input event after compositionupdate, IIRC. 01:09:00 But the 'input' event isn't specified anywhere! 01:09:04 masayuki: my idea for IME API is to allow js apps to draw composition string for composition update event, so beforeinput.preventDefault() can be used for the case. 01:10:52 I'm unfortable having beforeinput *sometimes* not cancellable. 01:11:47 kochi_ho_: if IME supports cancelling a compositionupdate, I don't think beforeinput before compositionupdate shouldn't be cancellable. But native IMEs are not cancellable per compositionupdate. 01:12:38 kochi_ho: So calling beforeinput.preventDefault would stop the 'input' event. would it affect any of the composition events? 01:13:02 garykac: yes 01:15:41 kochi_ho_: Hmm, sounds like browsers need to change the behavior whether the IME is native's or JS's. 01:17:36 masayuki: could you let me know the deatails offline (about native vs JS)? 01:17:42 kochi_ho_: or JS IME API should have a method whether editor draws composition string automatically. 01:18:23 kochi_ho_: Sure. 01:18:34 masayuki: ah, I meant the current state of IME API, which dropped the spec for writing IME in Javascript. 01:18:54 It would be nice if JS IME's behaved the same as native IMEs. I don't know if that's reasonable... 01:20:32 garykac: Applications (browsers) cannot touch composition if there is no API. 01:21:30 We're going to need to wrap up. 01:21:44 Sadly, we need to wrap up for today. I'm going to draft a doc that explores the different events being fired (and cancelled). I'll share this out so that we can discuss pros/cons. 01:22:07 Thanks Gary. 01:22:29 thanks 01:22:35 thanks 01:22:46 We meet again on the phone in 2 weeks. 01:22:57 Kochi_ho/masayuki: Thanks for your input/expertise. 01:23:03 Perhaps we could have Gary's doc in 1 week over email to begin looking through? 01:23:11 garykac: you're welcome. 01:23:31 See you all next time: Aug 13, 2013! 01:23:38 See you then! 01:23:42 Ah, wait. 01:23:54 The week is holiday week of Japan. 01:24:06 i'm available on that day 01:24:15 I'm not :-( 01:24:20 aha! 01:25:03 Let's find a time when we can all meet. 01:25:23 masayuki: when will work better? +/- a week? 01:25:42 Does August 6th work for everyone? 01:25:47 Travis: Yes, and either is OK. 01:25:49 ok for me 01:25:58 OK. 01:26:18 Let's try for Aug. 6th! 01:26:23 Done. 01:26:28 Hurray. August 6th it is. 01:26:28 Thank you! 01:27:00 rrsagent, this is DOM3 01:27:00 I'm logging. I don't understand 'this is DOM3', Travis. Try /msg RRSAgent help 01:27:46 zakim, this was DOM3 01:27:46 I don't understand 'this was DOM3', Travis 01:28:10 RRSAgent, set logs public 01:29:29 Zakim, what conferences are active? 01:29:29 I see no active conferences and none scheduled to start in the next 15 minutes 01:29:58 zakim, this conference is "DOM3" 01:29:58 sorry, Travis, I do not see a conference named '"DOM3"' in progress or scheduled at this time 01:30:27 RRSAgent, make the minutes 01:30:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/31-webapps-minutes.html Travis 01:30:58 RRSAgent, set minutes public 01:30:58 I'm logging. I don't understand 'set minutes public', Travis. Try /msg RRSAgent help 01:31:19 RRSAgent, set logs public 01:32:54 marcosc has joined #webapps 01:52:10 kochi_home has joined #webapps 02:27:03 marcosc has joined #webapps 03:21:12 marcosc has joined #webapps 04:03:17 cabanier has joined #webapps 04:32:53 cabanier1 has joined #webapps 05:09:30 marcosc has joined #webapps 06:03:39 marcosc has joined #webapps 06:57:48 marcosc has joined #webapps 07:20:57 Lachy has joined #webapps 07:25:25 Ms2ger has joined #webapps 07:28:15 tobie has joined #webapps 07:32:43 Zakim has left #webapps 07:40:31 marcosc has joined #webapps 07:53:08 skddc_ has joined #webapps 08:01:48 tobie has joined #webapps 09:45:54 marcosc_ has joined #webapps 10:12:49 smaug has joined #webapps 10:59:53 chaals has joined #webapps 11:20:44 abarsto has joined #webapps 11:23:35 cabanier has joined #webapps 11:31:31 ArtB: do you have a list of test facilitators somewhere? 11:31:31 (and ideally, their github handles) 11:32:03 tobie: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus 11:32:25 ArtB: duh. 11:32:27 Thanks. 11:32:52 I think I asked them to send you their GH logins 11:33:26 Oh. Well. I don't recall this happening. (Which doesn't mean it hasn't) 11:34:20 ArtB, now that we've got a rec, can we deprecate it? 11:35:58 ms2ger, I don't know if their is a way to 'deprecate' a W3C REC 11:36:31 Add warning notices, like we did to the DOM2 spe... 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