IRC log of css on 2013-07-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:02:26 [RRSAgent]
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15:02:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:02:31 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:02:32 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 58 minutes
15:02:35 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:02:43 [glazou]
glazou has changed the topic to:
15:40:18 [zcorpan]
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15:56:05 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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15:56:56 [florian]
Zakim, I am P7
15:56:56 [Zakim]
sorry, florian, I do not see a party named 'P7'
15:56:58 [Zakim]
15:57:03 [glazou]
 Zakim ??P8 is me
15:57:04 [florian]
Zakim, I am ??P7
15:57:05 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
15:57:11 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P8 is me
15:57:11 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:57:36 [glenn]
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15:58:06 [Zakim]
15:58:25 [shezbaig_wk]
Zakim, c_palmer is me
15:58:25 [Zakim]
+shezbaig_wk; got it
15:58:59 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aaaa
15:59:05 [rhauck]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:59:05 [Zakim]
+rhauck; got it
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16:02:10 [sgalineau]
Zakim, there is no turkish I in my name
16:02:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'there is no turkish I in my name', sgalineau
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16:02:41 [Zakim]
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16:02:58 [SimonSapin]
Zakim, ??P19 is me
16:02:58 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin; got it
16:03:00 [Zakim]
16:03:11 [Zakim]
16:03:20 [leif]
Zakim, I am ??P14
16:03:20 [Zakim]
+leif; got it
16:03:23 [Zakim]
16:03:29 [Zakim]
16:03:32 [Zakim]
16:03:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.417.671.aabb
16:03:56 [Zakim]
16:04:05 [glenn]
zakim, aabb is me
16:04:05 [Zakim]
+glenn; got it
16:04:16 [stearns]
hmm - may not be able to stay on the call
16:04:16 [Zakim]
16:04:23 [Zakim]
16:04:37 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:04:37 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
16:05:33 [Zakim]
16:05:46 [SimonSapin]
SribeNick: SimonSapin
16:05:51 [SimonSapin]
ScribeNick: SimonSapin
16:06:14 [SimonSapin]
Topic: Text 3 issues
16:06:37 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: on the ML, edits to justification section
16:06:44 [glazou]
see also
16:06:49 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: waiting for SteveZ and jdagget to review and approve
16:06:51 [Zakim]
16:07:03 [tantek]
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16:07:08 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: if no comment, next issue
16:07:23 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: jdagget wants to continue discussion on the ML
16:07:37 [Zakim]
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16:08:05 [SimonSapin]
[discussing what is the 2nd issue]
16:08:33 [Zakim]
16:08:42 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: proposal: letter-spacing allows justification with space between characters when set to a length
16:08:54 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: consistent with impls., some content depends on this
16:08:56 [koji]
zakim, ??P3 is me
16:08:56 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
16:09:00 [Zakim]
16:09:06 [fantasai]
+ consistent with word-spacing
16:09:14 [Zakim]
16:09:19 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: agree to allow some level of justification if letter-spacing is used
16:09:32 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: not happy as fixed as a way to turn it of
16:09:50 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: letter spacing variation are very small (few %)
16:10:22 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: fixed doesn’t correspond to what people find useful: min, mix variation
16:10:27 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: one issue at a time
16:10:48 [Zakim]
16:10:51 [Zakim]
16:10:58 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: 1 whether letter-spacing: length suppresses justification
16:11:15 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: 2. do we have a way to turn this kind of justification off
16:11:17 [Bert]
q+ to suggest the question is the wrong way round: we need a way to turn flexible letter spacing *on* (not off)
16:11:31 [Zakim]
16:11:31 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: is 2. a way to control it?
16:11:39 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: control is more important
16:11:52 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: already resolved to not allow min/max spacing at this level of the spec
16:12:02 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: if you can’t control it, you shouldn’t allow it
16:12:21 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: then content breaks, impls need to change, and this is inconsistent with word-spacing
16:12:31 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: lets put min/max back on the table
16:12:47 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: not going to CR if you say we need this, and jdagget says we can’t have this
16:13:00 [plinss]
ack bert
16:13:00 [Zakim]
Bert, you wanted to suggest the question is the wrong way round: we need a way to turn flexible letter spacing *on* (not off)
16:13:08 [Zakim]
16:13:19 [SimonSapin]
Bert: the way to turn automatic letter-spacing on could be to use the 'distribute' keyword
16:13:36 [Zakim]
16:13:49 [SimonSapin]
Bert: maybe not necessary to have control on the limits, but just say there is a limit or no limit on expansion
16:14:10 [SimonSapin]
Bert: maybe not further than twice the normal size is good enough
16:14:31 [SimonSapin]
Bert: new keyword on text-justify, suggested on the ML. 'unlimited'
16:14:39 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: this is what fixed does
16:14:50 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: the spec does not specify a limit, but gotta be reasonable
16:14:56 [koji]
zakim, [ipcaller] is me
16:14:56 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
16:15:19 [cabanier]
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16:15:24 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: kinds of limits I was coming across are +/- 5%, much smaller than half
16:15:48 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: letter-spacing also applies between CJK characters, in this can you do not want to limit
16:16:03 [Zakim]
16:16:15 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: CJK task force has a huge table of cases, it’s not uniform at all. Unclear that this works for CJK
16:16:27 [stearns]
thought that 'distribute' is what Bert is suggesting as 'unlimited'
16:16:30 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: algo currently undefined, UAs encouraged to do the right thing
16:16:56 [Zakim]
16:16:57 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: don,t want to have strong limits on what UAs can do: 2.1 says "can not add space between characters for justification"
16:17:29 [SimonSapin]
stearns: 'fixed' keyword is not about not allowing variable expansion, it forbids expansion at all
16:17:49 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: goal is to allow CJK to justify correct, so need to lift this limit
16:17:51 [Bert]
(To stearns: yes, and I suggest redfining 'distribute' as including an implicit limit, and 'unlimited' is what 'distribute' does now.)
16:17:56 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: also not break content and impls
16:18:18 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: in order to get the previous spec behavior: add the 'fixed' keyword, if that’s what you want
16:18:22 [stearns]
Bert: I'd rather leave 'distribute' as is
16:18:37 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: impls will have to add it, but does not break content as its opt-in
16:18:44 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: can add further controls in the future
16:18:54 [SimonSapin]
plinss: anybody implemented previous spec behavior?
16:19:00 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: not that I know of
16:19:12 [SimonSapin]
Bert: I,ve been relying on it. letter-spacing: 0
16:19:24 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: people who don’t read specs don’t do that
16:19:46 [SimonSapin]
Bert: content is there for what the spec says, not for future impls
16:20:17 [dbaron]
fantasai^: Implementations don't do justification with spacing between latin letters
16:20:29 [SimonSapin]
florian: if nobody has implemented it, ???
16:20:42 [smfr]
SimonSapin: we can't hear you
16:20:47 [SimonSapin]
florian: I think fantasai’s way forward is more managable
16:20:58 [SimonSapin]
plinss: continue discussion on email?
16:21:10 [stearns]
+1 to fantasai's current wording
16:21:23 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: I think there is some agreement to allow letter-spacing to participate in ???
16:21:40 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: we’re struggling with how to do that with existing impls/spec/content
16:22:02 [florian]
If nobody has implemented it, I suspect not many people have written stylesheet that conform to the spec in a way that breaks on current implementation, so while it is unfortunate to contradict ourselves, it still sounds like a less painful way
16:22:13 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: even if we add min/max, you have to turn those one which doesn’t work with existing content
16:22:23 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: unless we have defaults like +/- 5%
16:22:29 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: that’s too small
16:22:40 [SimonSapin]
stearns: leave impls. to choose limints
16:22:49 [SimonSapin]
stearns: can have controls for the limits later
16:23:05 [SimonSapin]
stearns: in favor of fantasai ’s proposal now
16:23:12 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: I may be ok with that
16:23:17 [Zakim]
16:23:27 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: what happens if you say fixed and specify a range
16:23:30 [glazou]
TabAtkins, you're super noisy
16:23:31 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: you cant
16:23:39 [glenn]
zakim, who's noisy?
16:23:42 [glazou]
Zakim, mute TabAtkins
16:23:42 [Zakim]
TabAtkins should now be muted
16:23:49 [Zakim]
glenn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (9%), SimonSapin (20%), Bert (9%), TabAtkins (21%)
16:23:56 [TabAtkins]
haha, it's not me!
16:24:04 [TabAtkins]
well, i'm still noisy.
16:24:05 [glazou]
sorry had to mute you, too noisy ; yeah it was you
16:24:12 [TabAtkins]
But the echo wasn't me.
16:24:13 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: if we add min/max controls in the future, 'fixed' is a shorthand to specify 3 identical values
16:24:22 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute TabAtkins
16:24:22 [Zakim]
TabAtkins should no longer be muted
16:24:25 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: never able to combine it with a range
16:24:43 [glenn]
zakim, who's noisy?
16:24:44 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: to do this correctly you need a table for CJK
16:24:46 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:24:55 [Zakim]
glenn, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (20%), plinss (4%), florian (32%)
16:25:03 [glazou]
Zakim, mute florian
16:25:03 [Zakim]
florian should now be muted
16:25:05 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (14%), florian (45%)
16:25:37 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: table = range of values depending on context
16:25:57 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: also priorities between adjustments
16:26:20 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: more than %age, more complex in the Japanase Layout Task Force report
16:26:31 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: let’s not do that at this level
16:26:48 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: concern with 'fixed' is that it restricts this solution
16:27:03 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: ??? originally designed for latin
16:27:07 [Zakim]
16:27:21 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: hope that UAs do the right thing by default, may take a long time
16:27:23 [tantek]
Zakim, Tantek is in Mozilla
16:27:23 [Zakim]
+Tantek; got it
16:27:32 [tantek]
Zakim, mute Tantek
16:27:32 [Zakim]
sorry, tantek, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Tantek
16:27:42 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: fine tuning of this is not something we should do now, if at all
16:27:44 [tantek]
Zakim, mute Mozilla
16:27:44 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] should now be muted
16:27:53 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: OK with that, I just don’t like 'fixed'
16:28:02 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: can we live without it?
16:28:10 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: I’m ok with that
16:28:43 [SimonSapin]
stearns: one of the use case for 'fixed' is German text, disable letter spacing for justification to avoid confusion with emphasis
16:28:56 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: ???
16:29:20 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: when we see problems, we can engineer the right solution
16:29:35 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: 'fixed' seems to be not terribly helpful
16:29:43 [SimonSapin]
plinss: consensus?
16:30:25 [SimonSapin]
Bert: what if you do want letter spacing for justification?
16:30:33 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: undefined for now
16:30:37 [tantek]
Bert: "There are newspapers that do that - more than 5%"
16:30:47 [dbaron]
fantasai^: I think not having fixed is what jdaggett originally wanted, so I think we should just resolve on not having 'fixed' and he can object if he wants.
16:30:48 [tantek]
perhaps post screenshots of newspapers that do this?
16:30:52 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: we say UAs should "do the right thing"
16:31:05 [Zakim]
16:31:08 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: we need to experiment to see what values/controls make sense
16:31:20 [SimonSapin]
Bert: By default I want that limit at 0 or 5%
16:31:59 [SimonSapin]
Bert: don’t want to leave it completely open. Impls will do letter-spacing without any limit and we won’t be able to get rid of it anymore
16:32:07 [tantek]
Bert: "Would like some way to say, if you use this keyword, then you may use more than 5%"
16:32:26 [SimonSapin]
plinss: the default is to whatever you think is right, 'auto' keyword
16:32:39 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: in CJK no one single number gives a good answer
16:32:52 [dbaron]
s/in CJK/when mixing Latin and CJK/
16:33:00 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: proposed resolution: accept part one of the proposal
16:33:15 [SimonSapin]
Bert: I do not want to allow that between alphabetic letters
16:33:26 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: you have to allow it for 'distribute', need more than 5%
16:33:48 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: bert’s proposal is to only relax when you say 'distribute'
16:34:01 [SimonSapin]
Bert: 'auto' means letter-spacing is honored
16:34:19 [SimonSapin]
Bert: I have content with letter-spacing:0 because I don’t want expansion
16:34:38 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: existing content that depends on the non-spec behavior of existing impl
16:34:56 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: existing content has letter-spacing:0 and expect expansion
16:35:18 [SimonSapin]
Bert: that’s not what the spec says, we don’t have to deal with that
16:35:22 [SimonSapin]
???: yes we do
16:35:28 [SimonSapin]
plinss: let’s move one
16:35:32 [SimonSapin]
16:35:48 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: my understanding is: consensus except for Bert
16:35:54 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: discuss with Bert on the ML
16:36:07 [tantek]
stevez: what is the nature of the existing content that would break
16:36:10 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: would be helpful to document what existing content would break
16:36:24 [tantek]
fantasai: cjk content that says letter-spacing 0 and expects it to still justify
16:36:38 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: CJK content (no spaces) with 'letter-spacing: 0' that expects expansion
16:37:34 [SimonSapin]
Bert: problem that fantasai mentioned is the cascading problem
16:37:44 [SimonSapin]
Bert: not sure that’s the same
16:37:52 [dbaron]
(fantasai seems to have dropped off the call)
16:38:06 [fantasai]
"hyphenation and justification"
16:38:09 [SimonSapin]
Topic: Conditional Rules
16:38:29 [SimonSapin]
plinss: where are we? Moving the spec forward
16:38:37 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: I don’t really know
16:38:47 [SimonSapin]
plinss: can we look into it and come back to it next week?
16:39:04 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: T&A is higher priority
16:39:26 [fantasai]
Topic: image-resolution: snap
16:39:26 [SimonSapin]
Topic: image-resolution: snap
16:39:28 [smfr]
16:39:46 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: wrt snap keyword of image-resolution
16:39:56 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: It's not really well-defined in CSS what the resolution is
16:40:02 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: esp. wrt zoom and transforms
16:40:13 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Consensus on ML seems to be that transforms don't affect snap
16:40:33 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Zoom that changes size of viewport should affect snap, but purely "optical" zoom should not
16:41:02 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Need some place that actually defines concept of viewport-zoom vs. other zoom
16:41:12 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: This distinction also affects device-pixel-ratio etc.
16:41:28 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: The things that 'snap' responds to are same as canvas
16:41:34 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Dunno where to define
16:41:41 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think MQ is a good place to define this
16:41:57 [Zakim]
16:42:12 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: What about device-adapt spec?
16:42:25 [fantasai]
fantasai: That might be ok, too. What is the status of that anyway?
16:42:35 [fantasai]
plinss: No WD since 2011
16:42:39 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: should poke Opera
16:42:58 [Zakim]
16:43:10 [fantasai]
ACTION TabAtkins: Define zooming, 2 types, for insertion into either MQ or device-adapt
16:43:10 [trackbot]
Error finding 'TabAtkins'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
16:43:15 [oyvind]
device-adapt? yes
16:43:22 [sgalineau]
florian: yes, the editor is still at Opera
16:43:29 [TabAtkins]
ACTION Tab: Define zooming, 2 types, for insertion into either MQ or device-adapt
16:43:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-572 - Define zooming, 2 types, for insertion into either MQ or device-adapt [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2013-08-07].
16:43:44 [florian]
Zakim, I am ??P2
16:43:44 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
16:43:52 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: visual zoom vs. layout zoom
16:44:05 [fantasai]
fantasai: Define snap to respond only to layout zoom
16:44:22 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Units for image-resolution from-image
16:44:24 [dbaron]
I would *not* use the terms "visual zoom" and "layout zoom" that TabAtkins suggested
16:44:38 [dbaron]
The distinction really has to do with whether there's one viewport or two.
16:44:39 [TabAtkins]
Suggestions welcome, dbaron. ^_^
16:44:39 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: 2 values for horizontal and vertical resolution
16:44:49 [fantasai]
fantasai: Think that's out of scope for L3
16:45:07 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: When you have from-image, some images can have 2 values
16:45:42 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: So CSS should also be able to handle that
16:46:18 [fantasai]
florian: Given from-image is in this level, maybe do it in this level
16:46:36 [fantasai]
fantasai: Could just allow it via from-image
16:47:33 [fantasai]
fantasai: Ordering of dimensions should be same as border-spacing, background-image...
16:47:41 [fantasai]
fantasai: Note it's physical
16:47:49 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Well, logical in relation to the image
16:47:58 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Will interact with image-orientation
16:48:00 [fantasai]
fantasai: yep
16:48:11 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Move to ML for details?
16:48:23 [fantasai]
fantasai: Sounds reasonable. Maybe draft up text and bring back to WG?
16:48:29 [fantasai]
fantasai: Anyone else on this topic?
16:48:39 [SimonSapin]
RESOLVED: two X/Y values for image-resolution
16:49:04 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: from-image metadata, e.g. png spec has number of image pixels per cm or whatever
16:49:12 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Do we interpret that as CSS units rather than physical units?
16:49:14 [fantasai]
fantasai: Yes
16:49:19 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Clarify in spec
16:49:45 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Clarify spec that CSS units are used for from-image resolution as well as CSS-explicit resolutions
16:50:56 [fantasai]
Topic: Matrix FPWD
16:51:03 [krit]
16:51:14 [fantasai]
krit: We wanted to have an interface that can handle 3D as well
16:51:30 [fantasai]
krit: Could have Matrix interface used by SVG and CSS together
16:51:39 [fantasai]
krit: Hopefully CSS will eventually expose the matrix interface
16:51:43 [fantasai]
16:51:48 [fantasai]
krit: So wanted a joint specification
16:51:55 [glazou]
16:51:59 [fantasai]
krit: would like to ask for feedbac, fpwd
16:52:07 [plh]
16:52:09 [fantasai]
krit: Already asked for review 3-4 weeks ago, no feedback
16:52:17 [fantasai]
plh: You name the interface CSSMatrix
16:52:23 [fantasai]
plh: Do you imply it can only be used by CSS?
16:52:42 [fantasai]
krit: Was called Matrix before, but not happy for WebGL people
16:52:46 [fantasai]
krit: Not useful for them
16:52:46 [tantek]
"Matrix that is proposed for the whole web"!
16:52:55 [tantek]
this aligns with my interests
16:52:56 [fantasai]
krit: Asked us to use a more specific name
16:53:33 [fantasai]
krit: since used for CSS Transforms, called it CSSMatrix
16:53:41 [dbaron]
I'm not convinced be the argument that it should have a CSS prefix
16:53:47 [tantek]
16:54:06 [dbaron]
16:54:30 [fantasai]
Bert: If we make this SVGMatrix, maybe SVGWG can take care of publishing? ;)
16:55:04 [fantasai]
glazou: Is name of interface a blocker for FPWD?
16:55:18 [tantek]
I suggest we go FPWD without prefix
16:55:33 [sgalineau]
16:55:33 [fantasai]
dbaron: I don't think it is, but should note the issue.
16:55:51 [tantek]
OH: "… then wait for last call to change the name"
16:56:05 [fantasai]
smfr notes that there's also CSSPoint interface
16:56:13 [fantasai]
krit: Also have a DOMPoint interface
16:56:25 [fantasai]
krit: Think I added an issue... it's under discussion.
16:56:36 [fantasai]
fantasai: So, note the issues, publish FPWD?
16:56:43 [fantasai]
16:57:13 [fantasai]
Topic: Flexbox
16:57:45 [fantasai]
fantasai: I guess we discussed converting table-cells to flex items
16:58:39 [fantasai]
fantasai: Do you have @supports yet? I think I would be uncomfortable not having good fallback from flex to tables if we don't have good support for @supports
16:58:47 [Zakim]
16:59:37 [fantasai]
Rossen: min-size?
16:59:39 [tantek]
and look it's the top of the hour
16:59:40 [Zakim]
16:59:41 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Different issue.
16:59:45 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Read & comment on thread
17:00:24 [fantasai]
fantasai: Think we can go with box-fixup clarification
17:00:32 [fantasai]
fantasai: and revisit during LC if necessary
17:01:00 [dbaron]
If you're planning to come (or might come, please list probability) to the Paris F2F, please add yourself to
17:01:05 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: box-fixup on internal table elements before flex item determination
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17:01:23 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
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17:02:00 [SimonSapin]
dbaron, how was my audio today?
17:02:29 [dbaron]
SimonSapin, not great, I think
17:03:34 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: still voip distorsion?
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17:04:40 [SimonSapin]
hum, I’ll try another setup next time
17:04:41 [dbaron]
SimonSapin, might have been microphone rather than voip
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disconnecting the lone participant, leif, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
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Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:11:13 [Zakim]
Attendees were plinss, florian, glazou, shezbaig_wk, +1.415.832.aaaa, rhauck, krit, Stearns, dael, Lea, SteveZ, SylvaIng, SimonSapin, briankardell, leif, smfr, +1.417.671.aabb,
17:11:13 [Zakim]
... glenn, fantasai, JohnJansen, Plh, koji, dbaron, Bert, TabAtkins, [Mozilla], Tantek
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17:17:07 [sgalineau]
tantek: how does it set a strong example to people whose concerns are legal? can social example mitigate legal issues?
17:18:19 [liam]
didn't see the context but yes, it's a common way that laws get to change because of behavioural changes in society
17:20:45 [Ms2ger]
liam, cc-0 specs
17:26:37 [liam]
Ms2ger, ah ok
17:26:45 [liam]
well, I'm not so sure in that case :)
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