15:02:26 RRSAgent has joined #css 15:02:26 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/31-css-irc 15:02:31 Zakim, this will be Style 15:02:32 ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 58 minutes 15:02:35 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:02:43 glazou has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0685.html 15:40:18 zcorpan has joined #css 15:54:10 rhauck has joined #css 15:55:06 sgalineau has joined #css 15:56:05 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started 15:56:06 florian has joined #css 15:56:11 +plinss 15:56:35 shezbaig_wk has joined #css 15:56:47 +??P7 15:56:56 Zakim, I am P7 15:56:56 sorry, florian, I do not see a party named 'P7' 15:56:58 +??P8 15:57:03  Zakim ??P8 is me 15:57:04 Zakim, I am ??P7 15:57:05 +florian; got it 15:57:11 Zakim, ??P8 is me 15:57:11 +glazou; got it 15:57:36 glenn has joined #css 15:58:06 +c_palmer 15:58:25 Zakim, c_palmer is me 15:58:25 +shezbaig_wk; got it 15:58:59 + +1.415.832.aaaa 15:59:05 Zakim, aaaa is me 15:59:05 +rhauck; got it 15:59:12 lmclister has joined #css 15:59:27 +krit 15:59:35 stearns has joined #css 16:00:29 dbaron has joined #css 16:00:40 dael has joined #css 16:01:02 +Stearns 16:01:13 +dael 16:01:29 leif has joined #css 16:01:40 MaRakow has joined #CSS 16:01:50 +Lea 16:01:50 +SteveZ 16:01:52 JohnJansen has joined #CSS 16:01:58 +SylvaIng 16:02:10 Zakim, there is no turkish I in my name 16:02:10 I don't understand 'there is no turkish I in my name', sgalineau 16:02:13 smfr has joined #css 16:02:37 SteveZ has joined #css 16:02:38 oyvind has joined #css 16:02:41 -Stearns 16:02:47 +??P19 16:02:58 Zakim, ??P19 is me 16:02:58 +SimonSapin; got it 16:03:00 +briankardell 16:03:11 +??P14 16:03:20 Zakim, I am ??P14 16:03:20 +leif; got it 16:03:23 +smfr 16:03:29 +Stearns 16:03:32 -Lea 16:03:50 + +1.417.671.aabb 16:03:56 -Stearns 16:04:05 zakim, aabb is me 16:04:05 +glenn; got it 16:04:16 hmm - may not be able to stay on the call 16:04:16 +[Microsoft] 16:04:23 +fantasai 16:04:37 Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen 16:04:37 +JohnJansen; got it 16:05:33 +Plh 16:05:46 SribeNick: SimonSapin 16:05:51 ScribeNick: SimonSapin 16:06:14 Topic: Text 3 issues 16:06:37 fantasai: on the ML, edits to justification section 16:06:44 see also https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0092.html 16:06:49 fantasai: waiting for SteveZ and jdagget to review and approve 16:06:51 +[IPcaller] 16:07:03 tantek has joined #css 16:07:08 fantasai: if no comment, next issue 16:07:23 SteveZ: jdagget wants to continue discussion on the ML 16:07:37 -[IPcaller] 16:07:51 koji has joined #css 16:08:05 [discussing what is the 2nd issue] 16:08:33 +??P3 16:08:42 fantasai: proposal: letter-spacing allows justification with space between characters when set to a length 16:08:54 fantasai: consistent with impls., some content depends on this 16:08:56 zakim, ??P3 is me 16:08:56 +koji; got it 16:09:00 +dbaron 16:09:06 + consistent with word-spacing 16:09:14 +Bert 16:09:19 SteveZ: agree to allow some level of justification if letter-spacing is used 16:09:32 SteveZ: not happy as fixed as a way to turn it of 16:09:50 SteveZ: letter spacing variation are very small (few %) 16:10:22 SteveZ: fixed doesn’t correspond to what people find useful: min, mix variation 16:10:27 fantasai: one issue at a time 16:10:48 -koji 16:10:51 +??P30 16:10:58 fantasai: 1 whether letter-spacing: length suppresses justification 16:11:15 fantasai: 2. do we have a way to turn this kind of justification off 16:11:17 q+ to suggest the question is the wrong way round: we need a way to turn flexible letter spacing *on* (not off) 16:11:31 +Lea 16:11:31 SteveZ: is 2. a way to control it? 16:11:39 SteveZ: control is more important 16:11:52 fantasai: already resolved to not allow min/max spacing at this level of the spec 16:12:02 SteveZ: if you can’t control it, you shouldn’t allow it 16:12:21 fantasai: then content breaks, impls need to change, and this is inconsistent with word-spacing 16:12:31 SteveZ: lets put min/max back on the table 16:12:47 fantasai: not going to CR if you say we need this, and jdagget says we can’t have this 16:13:00 ack bert 16:13:00 Bert, you wanted to suggest the question is the wrong way round: we need a way to turn flexible letter spacing *on* (not off) 16:13:08 +Stearns 16:13:19 Bert: the way to turn automatic letter-spacing on could be to use the 'distribute' keyword 16:13:36 +[IPcaller] 16:13:49 Bert: maybe not necessary to have control on the limits, but just say there is a limit or no limit on expansion 16:14:10 Bert: maybe not further than twice the normal size is good enough 16:14:31 Bert: new keyword on text-justify, suggested on the ML. 'unlimited' 16:14:39 SteveZ: this is what fixed does 16:14:50 SteveZ: the spec does not specify a limit, but gotta be reasonable 16:14:56 zakim, [ipcaller] is me 16:14:56 +koji; got it 16:15:19 cabanier has joined #css 16:15:24 SteveZ: kinds of limits I was coming across are +/- 5%, much smaller than half 16:15:48 fantasai: letter-spacing also applies between CJK characters, in this can you do not want to limit 16:16:03 -Lea 16:16:15 SteveZ: CJK task force has a huge table of cases, it’s not uniform at all. Unclear that this works for CJK 16:16:27 thought that 'distribute' is what Bert is suggesting as 'unlimited' 16:16:30 fantasai: algo currently undefined, UAs encouraged to do the right thing 16:16:56 +Lea 16:16:57 fantasai: don,t want to have strong limits on what UAs can do: 2.1 says "can not add space between characters for justification" 16:17:29 stearns: 'fixed' keyword is not about not allowing variable expansion, it forbids expansion at all 16:17:49 fantasai: goal is to allow CJK to justify correct, so need to lift this limit 16:17:51 (To stearns: yes, and I suggest redfining 'distribute' as including an implicit limit, and 'unlimited' is what 'distribute' does now.) 16:17:56 fantasai: also not break content and impls 16:18:18 fantasai: in order to get the previous spec behavior: add the 'fixed' keyword, if that’s what you want 16:18:22 Bert: I'd rather leave 'distribute' as is 16:18:37 fantasai: impls will have to add it, but does not break content as its opt-in 16:18:44 fantasai: can add further controls in the future 16:18:54 plinss: anybody implemented previous spec behavior? 16:19:00 fantasai: not that I know of 16:19:12 Bert: I,ve been relying on it. letter-spacing: 0 16:19:24 fantasai: people who don’t read specs don’t do that 16:19:46 Bert: content is there for what the spec says, not for future impls 16:20:17 fantasai^: Implementations don't do justification with spacing between latin letters 16:20:29 florian: if nobody has implemented it, ??? 16:20:42 SimonSapin: we can't hear you 16:20:47 florian: I think fantasai’s way forward is more managable 16:20:58 plinss: continue discussion on email? 16:21:10 +1 to fantasai's current wording 16:21:23 SteveZ: I think there is some agreement to allow letter-spacing to participate in ??? 16:21:40 SteveZ: we’re struggling with how to do that with existing impls/spec/content 16:22:02 If nobody has implemented it, I suspect not many people have written stylesheet that conform to the spec in a way that breaks on current implementation, so while it is unfortunate to contradict ourselves, it still sounds like a less painful way 16:22:13 SteveZ: even if we add min/max, you have to turn those one which doesn’t work with existing content 16:22:23 SteveZ: unless we have defaults like +/- 5% 16:22:29 fantasai: that’s too small 16:22:40 stearns: leave impls. to choose limints 16:22:49 stearns: can have controls for the limits later 16:23:05 stearns: in favor of fantasai ’s proposal now 16:23:12 SteveZ: I may be ok with that 16:23:17 +TabAtkins 16:23:27 SteveZ: what happens if you say fixed and specify a range 16:23:30 TabAtkins, you're super noisy 16:23:31 fantasai: you cant 16:23:39 zakim, who's noisy? 16:23:42 Zakim, mute TabAtkins 16:23:42 TabAtkins should now be muted 16:23:49 glenn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (9%), SimonSapin (20%), Bert (9%), TabAtkins (21%) 16:23:56 haha, it's not me! 16:24:04 well, i'm still noisy. 16:24:05 sorry had to mute you, too noisy ; yeah it was you 16:24:12 But the echo wasn't me. 16:24:13 fantasai: if we add min/max controls in the future, 'fixed' is a shorthand to specify 3 identical values 16:24:22 Zakim, unmute TabAtkins 16:24:22 TabAtkins should no longer be muted 16:24:25 fantasai: never able to combine it with a range 16:24:43 zakim, who's noisy? 16:24:44 SteveZ: to do this correctly you need a table for CJK 16:24:46 Zakim, who is noisy? 16:24:55 glenn, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (20%), plinss (4%), florian (32%) 16:25:03 Zakim, mute florian 16:25:03 florian should now be muted 16:25:05 glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (14%), florian (45%) 16:25:37 SteveZ: table = range of values depending on context 16:25:57 SteveZ: also priorities between adjustments 16:26:20 SteveZ: more than %age, more complex in the Japanase Layout Task Force report 16:26:31 fantasai: let’s not do that at this level 16:26:48 SteveZ: concern with 'fixed' is that it restricts this solution 16:27:03 SteveZ: ??? originally designed for latin 16:27:07 +[Mozilla] 16:27:21 fantasai: hope that UAs do the right thing by default, may take a long time 16:27:23 Zakim, Tantek is in Mozilla 16:27:23 +Tantek; got it 16:27:32 Zakim, mute Tantek 16:27:32 sorry, tantek, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Tantek 16:27:42 fantasai: fine tuning of this is not something we should do now, if at all 16:27:44 Zakim, mute Mozilla 16:27:44 [Mozilla] should now be muted 16:27:53 SteveZ: OK with that, I just don’t like 'fixed' 16:28:02 SteveZ: can we live without it? 16:28:10 fantasai: I’m ok with that 16:28:43 stearns: one of the use case for 'fixed' is German text, disable letter spacing for justification to avoid confusion with emphasis 16:28:56 SteveZ: ??? 16:29:20 SteveZ: when we see problems, we can engineer the right solution 16:29:35 SteveZ: 'fixed' seems to be not terribly helpful 16:29:43 plinss: consensus? 16:30:25 Bert: what if you do want letter spacing for justification? 16:30:33 fantasai: undefined for now 16:30:37 Bert: "There are newspapers that do that - more than 5%" 16:30:47 fantasai^: I think not having fixed is what jdaggett originally wanted, so I think we should just resolve on not having 'fixed' and he can object if he wants. 16:30:48 perhaps post screenshots of newspapers that do this? 16:30:52 SteveZ: we say UAs should "do the right thing" 16:31:05 -[Microsoft] 16:31:08 SteveZ: we need to experiment to see what values/controls make sense 16:31:20 Bert: By default I want that limit at 0 or 5% 16:31:59 Bert: don’t want to leave it completely open. Impls will do letter-spacing without any limit and we won’t be able to get rid of it anymore 16:32:07 Bert: "Would like some way to say, if you use this keyword, then you may use more than 5%" 16:32:26 plinss: the default is to whatever you think is right, 'auto' keyword 16:32:39 SteveZ: in CJK no one single number gives a good answer 16:32:52 s/in CJK/when mixing Latin and CJK/ 16:33:00 fantasai: proposed resolution: accept part one of the proposal 16:33:15 Bert: I do not want to allow that between alphabetic letters 16:33:26 fantasai: you have to allow it for 'distribute', need more than 5% 16:33:48 SteveZ: bert’s proposal is to only relax when you say 'distribute' 16:34:01 Bert: 'auto' means letter-spacing is honored 16:34:19 Bert: I have content with letter-spacing:0 because I don’t want expansion 16:34:38 SteveZ: existing content that depends on the non-spec behavior of existing impl 16:34:56 fantasai: existing content has letter-spacing:0 and expect expansion 16:35:18 Bert: that’s not what the spec says, we don’t have to deal with that 16:35:22 ???: yes we do 16:35:28 plinss: let’s move one 16:35:32 s/one/on/ 16:35:48 fantasai: my understanding is: consensus except for Bert 16:35:54 fantasai: discuss with Bert on the ML 16:36:07 stevez: what is the nature of the existing content that would break 16:36:10 SteveZ: would be helpful to document what existing content would break 16:36:24 fantasai: cjk content that says letter-spacing 0 and expects it to still justify 16:36:38 fantasai: CJK content (no spaces) with 'letter-spacing: 0' that expects expansion 16:37:34 Bert: problem that fantasai mentioned is the cascading problem 16:37:44 Bert: not sure that’s the same 16:37:52 (fantasai seems to have dropped off the call) 16:38:06 "hyphenation and justification" 16:38:09 Topic: Conditional Rules 16:38:29 plinss: where are we? Moving the spec forward 16:38:37 dbaron: I don’t really know 16:38:47 plinss: can we look into it and come back to it next week? 16:39:04 dbaron: T&A is higher priority 16:39:26 Topic: image-resolution: snap 16:39:26 Topic: image-resolution: snap 16:39:28 s/span/snap? 16:39:46 SimonSapin: wrt snap keyword of image-resolution 16:39:56 SimonSapin: It's not really well-defined in CSS what the resolution is 16:40:02 SimonSapin: esp. wrt zoom and transforms 16:40:13 SimonSapin: Consensus on ML seems to be that transforms don't affect snap 16:40:33 SimonSapin: Zoom that changes size of viewport should affect snap, but purely "optical" zoom should not 16:41:02 TabAtkins: Need some place that actually defines concept of viewport-zoom vs. other zoom 16:41:12 TabAtkins: This distinction also affects device-pixel-ratio etc. 16:41:28 TabAtkins: The things that 'snap' responds to are same as canvas 16:41:34 TabAtkins: Dunno where to define 16:41:41 fantasai: I think MQ is a good place to define this 16:41:57 -florian 16:42:12 SimonSapin: What about device-adapt spec? 16:42:25 fantasai: That might be ok, too. What is the status of that anyway? 16:42:35 plinss: No WD since 2011 16:42:39 TabAtkins: should poke Opera 16:42:58 +??P2 16:43:10 ACTION TabAtkins: Define zooming, 2 types, for insertion into either MQ or device-adapt 16:43:10 Error finding 'TabAtkins'. You can review and register nicknames at . 16:43:15 device-adapt? yes 16:43:22 florian: yes, the editor is still at Opera 16:43:29 ACTION Tab: Define zooming, 2 types, for insertion into either MQ or device-adapt 16:43:30 Created ACTION-572 - Define zooming, 2 types, for insertion into either MQ or device-adapt [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2013-08-07]. 16:43:44 Zakim, I am ??P2 16:43:44 +florian; got it 16:43:52 TabAtkins: visual zoom vs. layout zoom 16:44:05 fantasai: Define snap to respond only to layout zoom 16:44:22 SimonSapin: Units for image-resolution from-image 16:44:24 I would *not* use the terms "visual zoom" and "layout zoom" that TabAtkins suggested 16:44:38 The distinction really has to do with whether there's one viewport or two. 16:44:39 Suggestions welcome, dbaron. ^_^ 16:44:39 SimonSapin: 2 values for horizontal and vertical resolution 16:44:49 fantasai: Think that's out of scope for L3 16:45:07 SimonSapin: When you have from-image, some images can have 2 values 16:45:42 SimonSapin: So CSS should also be able to handle that 16:46:18 florian: Given from-image is in this level, maybe do it in this level 16:46:36 fantasai: Could just allow it via from-image 16:47:33 fantasai: Ordering of dimensions should be same as border-spacing, background-image... 16:47:41 fantasai: Note it's physical 16:47:49 TabAtkins: Well, logical in relation to the image 16:47:58 SimonSapin: Will interact with image-orientation 16:48:00 fantasai: yep 16:48:11 SimonSapin: Move to ML for details? 16:48:23 fantasai: Sounds reasonable. Maybe draft up text and bring back to WG? 16:48:29 fantasai: Anyone else on this topic? 16:48:39 RESOLVED: two X/Y values for image-resolution 16:49:04 SimonSapin: from-image metadata, e.g. png spec has number of image pixels per cm or whatever 16:49:12 SimonSapin: Do we interpret that as CSS units rather than physical units? 16:49:14 fantasai: Yes 16:49:19 SimonSapin: Clarify in spec 16:49:45 RESOLVED: Clarify spec that CSS units are used for from-image resolution as well as CSS-explicit resolutions 16:50:56 Topic: Matrix FPWD 16:51:03 http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/matrix/ 16:51:14 krit: We wanted to have an interface that can handle 3D as well 16:51:30 krit: Could have Matrix interface used by SVG and CSS together 16:51:39 krit: Hopefully CSS will eventually expose the matrix interface 16:51:43 s/CSS/CSSOM/ 16:51:48 krit: So wanted a joint specification 16:51:55 s/FPWF/FPWD 16:51:59 krit: would like to ask for feedbac, fpwd 16:52:07 q+ 16:52:09 krit: Already asked for review 3-4 weeks ago, no feedback 16:52:17 plh: You name the interface CSSMatrix 16:52:23 plh: Do you imply it can only be used by CSS? 16:52:42 krit: Was called Matrix before, but not happy for WebGL people 16:52:46 krit: Not useful for them 16:52:46 "Matrix that is proposed for the whole web"! 16:52:55 this aligns with my interests 16:52:56 krit: Asked us to use a more specific name 16:53:33 krit: since used for CSS Transforms, called it CSSMatrix 16:53:41 I'm not convinced be the argument that it should have a CSS prefix 16:53:47 dbaron++ 16:54:06 s/be/by/ 16:54:30 Bert: If we make this SVGMatrix, maybe SVGWG can take care of publishing? ;) 16:55:04 glazou: Is name of interface a blocker for FPWD? 16:55:18 I suggest we go FPWD without prefix 16:55:33 TransformMatrix? 16:55:33 dbaron: I don't think it is, but should note the issue. 16:55:51 OH: "… then wait for last call to change the name" 16:56:05 smfr notes that there's also CSSPoint interface 16:56:13 krit: Also have a DOMPoint interface 16:56:25 krit: Think I added an issue... it's under discussion. 16:56:36 fantasai: So, note the issues, publish FPWD? 16:56:43 RESOLVED: FPWD Matrix 16:57:13 Topic: Flexbox 16:57:45 fantasai: I guess we discussed converting table-cells to flex items 16:58:39 fantasai: Do you have @supports yet? I think I would be uncomfortable not having good fallback from flex to tables if we don't have good support for @supports 16:58:47 -briankardell 16:59:37 Rossen: min-size? 16:59:39 and look it's the top of the hour 16:59:40 -??P30 16:59:41 TabAtkins: Different issue. 16:59:45 TabAtkins: Read & comment on thread 17:00:24 fantasai: Think we can go with box-fixup clarification 17:00:32 fantasai: and revisit during LC if necessary 17:01:00 If you're planning to come (or might come, please list probability) to the Paris F2F, please add yourself to http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2013#participants 17:01:05 RESOLVED: box-fixup on internal table elements before flex item determination 17:01:08 -rhauck 17:01:14 darktears has joined #css 17:01:16 -TabAtkins 17:01:22 -glenn 17:01:23 Meeting closed. 17:01:24 smfr has left #css 17:01:25 -dbaron 17:01:27 -glazou 17:01:28 -florian 17:01:28 -dael 17:01:29 -krit 17:01:30 -Stearns 17:01:30 -Plh 17:01:30 -Lea 17:01:30 -smfr 17:01:31 -SylvaIng 17:01:32 -fantasai 17:01:33 -Bert 17:01:33 -SteveZ 17:01:35 -SimonSapin 17:01:35 -plinss 17:01:37 -koji 17:01:50 -[Mozilla] 17:02:00 dbaron, how was my audio today? 17:02:29 SimonSapin, not great, I think 17:03:34 dbaron: still voip distorsion? 17:04:10 zcorpan has joined #css 17:04:40 hum, I’ll try another setup next time 17:04:41 SimonSapin, might have been microphone rather than voip 17:06:11 -shezbaig_wk 17:10:08 rhauck has joined #css 17:11:12 disconnecting the lone participant, leif, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM 17:11:13 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended 17:11:13 Attendees were plinss, florian, glazou, shezbaig_wk, +1.415.832.aaaa, rhauck, krit, Stearns, dael, Lea, SteveZ, SylvaIng, SimonSapin, briankardell, leif, smfr, +1.417.671.aabb, 17:11:13 ... glenn, fantasai, JohnJansen, Plh, koji, dbaron, Bert, TabAtkins, [Mozilla], Tantek 17:12:21 leif has left #css 17:14:46 zcorpan has joined #css 17:17:07 tantek: how does it set a strong example to people whose concerns are legal? can social example mitigate legal issues? 17:18:19 didn't see the context but yes, it's a common way that laws get to change because of behavioural changes in society 17:20:45 liam, cc-0 specs 17:26:37 Ms2ger, ah ok 17:26:45 well, I'm not so sure in that case :) 17:44:36 tantek has joined #css 18:34:27 nvdbleek has joined #css 19:16:39 teoli has joined #css 19:33:20 krit has joined #css 19:38:35 Zakim has left #css 19:49:26 michou1 has joined #css 19:52:12 krit1 has joined #css 20:00:07 dbaron has joined #css 20:03:31 krit has joined #css 20:52:41 tantek has joined #css 21:01:24 zcorpan has joined #css 21:03:36 florian has joined #css 21:28:26 tantek_ has joined #css 21:33:24 tantek has joined #css 22:22:51 zcorpan has joined #css 23:15:10 lmclister has joined #css 23:40:46 liam has joined #css