15:01:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents
15:01:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/30-pointerevents-irc
15:01:22 <Zakim> +Art_Barstow
15:01:23 <smaug> Zakim,  [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
15:01:23 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
15:01:33 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
15:01:38 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
15:01:38 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
15:01:44 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
15:01:44 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
15:01:44 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JulSep/0005.html
15:01:44 <ArtB> Chair: Art
15:01:44 <ArtB> Meeting: Pointer Events WG Voice Conference
15:01:50 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
15:01:52 <mbrubeck> Zakim, I am Matt_Brubeck
15:01:52 <Zakim> ok, mbrubeck, I now associate you with Matt_Brubeck
15:02:30 <Zakim> +Cathy
15:02:43 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Jacob_Rossi, Asir_Vedamuthu, Cathy_Chan, Olli_Pettay
15:03:03 <asir> asir has joined #pointerevents
15:03:23 <ArtB> Present+ Scott_González
15:03:29 <ArtB> Regrets: Rick_Byers
15:03:48 <ArtB> Topic: Tweak agenda
15:03:54 <ArtB> AB: Welcome back everyone ;-)!
15:04:16 <jrossi> Congrats, Cathy!
15:04:27 <ArtB> AB: I published a draft agenda yesterday http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JulSep/0005.html. Any change requests?
15:04:46 <Cathy> Cathy has joined #pointerevents
15:05:07 <ArtB> [ No change requests for the agenda ]
15:05:16 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
15:05:16 <ArtB> Topic: CR implementation status
15:05:26 <ArtB> Present+ Doug_Schepers
15:05:34 <ArtB> AB: let's talk about CR implementation status.
15:05:45 <ArtB> AB: Rick submitted an update re Blink/Chrome http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JulSep/0007.html
15:06:33 <ArtB> AB: Rick says a few weeks for touch-actions
15:06:48 <ArtB> JR: and Rick said a few months before the impl is complete
15:07:23 <ArtB> AS: the "few months" from Rick was about the touch-action-delay
15:07:46 <ArtB> MB: re Firefox, a Microsoft person (?) submitted a Gecko patch
15:07:47 <mbrubeck> Microsoft contributed patches to Gecko, currently being reviewed: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=822898
15:07:48 <mbrubeck> http://msopentech.com/blog/2013/06/17/w3c-pointer-events-gains-further-web-momentum-with-patch-for-mozilla-firefox/
15:07:50 <ArtB> … still a WIP
15:08:08 <ArtB> OP: that is in my review queue
15:08:32 <ArtB> … that patch was about the PE events and not the CSS property
15:08:42 <ArtB> … but I expect that person to implement that too
15:08:59 <mbrubeck> The contributor, Oleg Romashin ("romaxa") is a long-time Firefox developer.
15:09:02 <jrossi> Oleg Romashin <Oleg.Romashin@microsoft.com>
15:09:24 <ArtB> AB: thanks Matt and Olli
15:09:44 <ArtB> OP: I think there needs to be some work on mouse and pointer events interaction
15:09:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:09:56 <ArtB> … we need some tests to work on that
15:10:03 <ArtB> … Oleg is working on that
15:10:19 <ArtB> MB: Wes Johnson is interested in doing some work too
15:10:26 <ArtB> … he mentioned that to Oleg
15:10:31 <sangwhan> Zakim, IPcaller is me
15:10:31 <Zakim> +sangwhan; got it
15:10:52 <ArtB> AB: is there a timeframe for FF/Gecko?
15:10:54 <ArtB> MB: no
15:11:11 <ArtB> OP: no, events stuff is "easy" but the CSS property is not
15:11:22 <ArtB> Present+ Sangwhan_Moon
15:11:47 <ArtB> AB: Scott, any news from jQuery?
15:12:25 <ArtB> SG: working on Polymer. The goal is to use Polymer and not our own implementation
15:12:52 <sangwhan> Opera 14+ is a ditto of Rick's status update
15:12:58 <ArtB> AB: Jacob, Asir, what about IE?
15:13:08 <ArtB> JR: we release IE11 Preview a few weeks ago
15:13:26 <ArtB> … it includes updated MSPointerEvents
15:13:34 <ArtB> … it is still member-prefixed
15:13:47 <ArtB> … We will ship IE 11 without prefixes
15:14:02 <ArtB> … we will announce this on our blog later this week
15:14:11 <ArtB> … We think the compat hit will be minimal
15:14:36 <ArtB> AB: when can we expect that to hit the street?
15:14:46 <ArtB> JR: we don't have an announced date
15:14:57 <ArtB> … other than we expect IE11 to be in Windows 8.1
15:15:38 <ArtB> AB: thanks Jacob
15:15:41 <jrossi> Windows 8.1 will be available before the end of the calendar year
15:16:00 <ArtB> JR: one thing to note is that now we don't expect to build support for the constructor
15:16:18 <ArtB> … we need to do that across the board
15:16:24 <ArtB> … not clear if that will be in IE11
15:17:01 <ArtB> DS: that's not a problem per se from the standarization PoV, but if that constructor is in the spec, we will need 2 impls that do support the constructor
15:17:07 <ArtB> … Will we get that?
15:17:20 <ArtB> JR: think it will be supported by Blink and WebKit
15:17:26 <mbrubeck> s/WebKit/Firefox/
15:17:32 <ArtB> OP: I expect us to support it in Gecko
15:17:39 <ArtB> DS: ok, thanks
15:18:52 <ArtB> AB: Sangwhan, what about Opera?
15:19:11 <ArtB> SM: our impl will depend on Rick (Chromium's) work
15:19:32 <ArtB> … Opera's Presto - it seems unlikely we will add PE support
15:19:49 <ArtB> … unless there becomes lots of content that use it and we have an interop problem
15:20:31 <ArtB> AS: so Opera's work depends on Chromium?
15:20:34 <ArtB> SM: yes
15:20:47 <ArtB> AS: what about Presto?
15:20:50 <sangwhan> Bottom line is Opera's work now depends on Chromium
15:21:16 <sangwhan> As the rendering engine is now using Blink starting from Opera (Mobile) 14+
15:21:38 <Zakim> -sangwhan
15:21:45 <sangwhan> Nothing else from Opera
15:21:53 <ArtB> AB: any news about Polymer?
15:22:22 <ArtB> SG: one place is a deviation is the touch-action attribute
15:22:30 <ArtB> … they've done a lot of work to remove it
15:22:36 <ArtB> … not sure where that stands now
15:22:43 <scott_gonzalez> https://github.com/Polymer/PointerEvents/issues/92
15:23:01 <ArtB> JR: Rick mentioned Polymer in his status report
15:23:02 <Zakim> +??P27
15:23:29 <ArtB> AB: anything about WebKit?
15:23:30 <sangwhan> Zakim, ??P27 is me
15:23:30 <Zakim> +sangwhan; got it
15:23:51 <ArtB> … as I understand it, Microsoft submitted a patch for WebKit. Is that true?
15:23:58 <ArtB> AS: our patches are all online
15:24:07 <ArtB> … I don't have any new info
15:24:23 <ArtB> AB: any other impl data to share?
15:24:38 <ArtB> Topic: Test Suite status
15:24:46 <ArtB> AB: the general topic is what needs to be done to make the test suite sufficient to test an implementation of the CR.
15:25:00 <asir> s/what about Presto?/what did you say about Presto? Because I could not hear the full summary/
15:25:01 <ArtB> AB: and, more specifically, I think it would be useful if we had an understanding about Who is going to do What and by When.
15:25:13 <ArtB> AB: Matt proposed an overall testing process in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013AprJun/0167.html and earlier today I codified quite a bit of that in http://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/Testing.
15:26:32 <ArtB> AB: let's start with an inventory
15:26:46 <ArtB> ... We have Scott's pointerdown file as "approved" https://raw.github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/master/pointerevents/pointerdown.html so it is now mirrored and thus can be run directly in a browser via http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/pointerevents/
15:27:33 <ArtB> AB: Last April, there were some TTWF submissions http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013AprJun/0092.html and they are not in the pointerevents repo https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/pointerevents
15:27:56 <ArtB> AB: how do we get review on those submissions
15:28:55 <ArtB> SM: those are put in new repos, they are not PRs
15:29:11 <ArtB> MB: correct, they were created before we had the pointerevents repo
15:29:21 <ArtB> SG: I can ask Dave to make a PR to the new repo
15:29:43 <scott_gonzalez> https://github.com/dmethvin/pointerevents-test
15:29:46 <ArtB> AB: that would be great; then we need PRs for the other submissions
15:30:21 <ArtB> SG: I think Dave needs to do a merge and then after that is done to make a PR for the pointerevents repo
15:31:01 <ArtB> ACTION: scott follow up with Dave to get a PR from the April TTWF to the pointerevents repo
15:31:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-44 - Follow up with Dave to get a PR from the April TTWF to the pointerevents repo [on Scott González - due 2013-08-06].
15:31:10 <ArtB> SM: please let me know when that PR is made
15:31:12 <ArtB> SG: OK
15:32:58 <ArtB> AB: re notifications, I think it would be useful for people to send an email to the list after they submit a PR
15:33:36 <ArtB> AB: do we need to chase the other submitters or is Dave doing that?
15:33:52 <ArtB> SG: Dave's PR will include a merge of the other submissions
15:34:31 <ArtB> AB: one of the next Qs is about coverage/breath and then depth
15:34:40 <mbrubeck> sangwhan: Where/who should I ask for write access to that repo?
15:34:52 <ArtB> … wrt coverage, the Test Assertion table is a good way to get a handle on that
15:35:02 <ArtB> AB: Cathy, is the Test Assertions table complete? http://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/TestAssertions
15:35:10 <jrossi> mbrubeck:  Mike Smith gave me my write access
15:35:27 <ArtB> CC: there could be a couple of sections that still need some work
15:35:33 <sangwhan> mbrubeck: Tobie/Mike/Robin
15:35:34 <ArtB> … f.ex. the CSS property
15:35:42 <ArtB> … other than that, I think I'm done
15:36:50 <ArtB> AB: so one Q is if the TAs are sufficient to qualify an impl re the CR
15:37:02 <ArtB> JR: I think we now have sufficient breadth
15:37:13 <ArtB> … the feature coverage seems adequate
15:37:20 <ArtB> … The depth Q is different
15:37:25 <ArtB> … I would need to do a path
15:37:32 <ArtB> … but I think what we have is pretty good
15:37:35 <jrossi> http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/#pointerevents
15:37:40 <ArtB> … Microsoft will contribute some tests
15:37:50 <ArtB> … I need to prep then and create a PR
15:37:57 <ArtB> … and that will cover more assertions
15:38:40 <ArtB> SM: re TouchEvents, there is some variability when running them, hope we can do better with PointerEvents
15:39:09 <ArtB> SG: agree we should be more clear here, especially why some tests are not run
15:39:52 <ArtB> … we need to describe what we expect to happen and then what actually happens
15:40:32 <scott_gonzalez> If possible, we should generate a failing test if we can detect that a block of event assertions never ran.
15:40:43 <ArtB> AB: Jacob, when can we expect those tests?
15:40:50 <ArtB> JR: within the next two weeks.
15:40:53 <scott_gonzalez> But we may not be able to reliably determine that based on differing pointer types.
15:41:22 <scott_gonzalez> At a minimum, we should have a short description of what we expected to happen so the tester can easily determine if all assertions have run.
15:41:32 <ArtB> AB: thanks Jacob
15:41:44 <ArtB> … can you think of any features that you don't test?
15:41:56 <ArtB> JR: not sure but perhaps the touch-action property
15:42:27 <ArtB> … I will update the wiki with our tests and that will help with understanding which features we have coverage
15:42:47 <ArtB> SG: the Test Status data isn't particuarly useful
15:42:55 <ArtB> … they need to be changed to more useful status
15:43:01 <ArtB> … like "Approved"
15:43:12 <ArtB> AB: +1 Scott!
15:43:47 <ArtB> AS: re approval, is there a way they can approved in August?
15:43:59 <ArtB> SG: all of the tests, or those with PRs
15:44:09 <ArtB> AS: I mean all of the coverage we need
15:44:34 <ArtB> SG: I don't think I will be able to review everything by August
15:45:00 <ArtB> … based on history, not sure we will have all of the tests by August
15:46:03 <ArtB> AB: the minimum req is to have at least one person review each test
15:46:15 <ArtB> … and we should certaily strive to do better than that
15:46:28 <ArtB> … and avoid the "fox guarding the chicken coop"
15:47:04 <ArtB> AS: reviewing tests can be really useful, especially for the implementers
15:48:41 <ArtB> SM: how do we handle duplicates?
15:48:55 <ArtB> SG: for Dave's PR, we will take care of that
15:49:09 <ArtB> … unless a test Seattle is more comprehensive
15:49:32 <ArtB> SM: looking at the IE tests, they could be covered by Seattle tests
15:49:41 <ArtB> … who is going to take care of duplicates
15:50:41 <ArtB> JR: it could be helpful to review our submissions versus the Seattle tests
15:50:58 <ArtB> … I think it's OK for PRs to include dups
15:51:15 <ArtB> … and then we remove the dups before being merged to master
15:51:41 <ArtB> SG: perhaps it would be best if Dave waits until Microsoft submits its tests
15:52:23 <ArtB> … if the Seattle tests overlap IE, Dave could just ignore the Seattle tests
15:52:56 <ArtB> AB: so Scott will ask Dave to block until Jacob submits his tests. Is this correct?
15:52:58 <ArtB> SG: yes
15:53:23 <ArtB> AB: so I think we have a good plan then
15:53:50 <ArtB> … and Jacob is going to update the TA table re the Microsoft tests
15:54:07 <jrossi> Yes, Cathy's table was a big help!
15:54:12 <asir> Indeed!!!
15:54:21 <ArtB> AB: the TA table is really great Cathy
15:54:28 <ArtB> AB: anything else on testing for today?
15:54:31 <ArtB> [ No ]
15:54:35 <ArtB> Topic: AoB
15:54:42 <ArtB> AB: anything else for today?
15:54:47 <ArtB> AS: when is the next call?
15:56:00 <ArtB> AB: is the current process working?
15:56:14 <ArtB> AS: let's meet after Jacob submits his tests
15:56:26 <ArtB> AB: that sounds like a good working assumption
15:56:46 <ArtB> AB: is the current meeting frequency working OK?
15:56:52 <ArtB> DS: I'd leave it to you Art
15:57:08 <asir> +1
15:57:17 <ArtB> AB: ok, we'll continue along the way we are going
15:58:29 <ArtB> DS: I went to OSCON last week in PDX, PointerEvents was a topic
15:58:49 <ArtB> … and there is an upcoming conf with Jacob on a PE panel
15:59:04 <ArtB> s/upcoming conf/HTML DevConf/
15:59:38 <jrossi> http://html5devconf.com/
15:59:43 <Zakim> -asir
15:59:44 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:59:46 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
15:59:46 <ArtB> AB: meeting adjourned
15:59:46 <Zakim> -sangwhan
15:59:47 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
15:59:51 <Zakim> -Cathy
15:59:52 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
16:00:01 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:00:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/30-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:00:02 <Zakim> - +1.717.578.aaaa
16:00:03 <Zakim> RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended
16:00:03 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.717.578.aaaa, [Microsoft], Matt_Brubeck, Art_Barstow, Olli_Pettay, Cathy, Doug_Schepers, sangwhan, asir
16:02:56 <ArtB> zakim, bye
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