IRC log of html-media on 2013-07-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:49:01 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-media
14:49:01 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:49:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:49:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-media
14:49:05 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 63342
14:49:05 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
14:49:06 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
14:49:06 [trackbot]
Date: 30 July 2013
14:54:51 [jdsmith]
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14:54:54 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()11:00AM has now started
14:54:56 [Zakim]
14:58:49 [Zakim]
14:58:51 [Zakim]
14:58:51 [Zakim]
14:59:03 [glenn]
zakim, ??p5 is me
14:59:03 [Zakim]
+glenn; got it
14:59:21 [paulc]
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14:59:35 [paulc]
zakim, what is the code?
14:59:35 [Zakim]
the conference code is 63342 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, paulc
14:59:39 [joesteele]
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14:59:51 [paulc]
trackbot, start meeting
14:59:54 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:59:56 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 63342
14:59:56 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:57 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
14:59:57 [trackbot]
Date: 30 July 2013
15:01:07 [paulc]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:07 [Zakim]
I notice HTML_WG()11:00AM has restarted
15:01:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft], glenn, [Adobe], [Microsoft.a]
15:01:08 [davide]
davide has joined #html-media
15:01:08 [Zakim]
15:01:19 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] is me
15:01:19 [Zakim]
+paulc; got it
15:01:19 [pladd]
pladd has joined #html-media
15:02:04 [paulc]
15:02:33 [paulc]
Regrets: John Simmons
15:02:47 [Zakim]
15:03:10 [paulc]
zakim, who is present?
15:03:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, paulc.
15:03:17 [BobLund]
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15:03:25 [joesteele]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see paulc, glenn, [Adobe], [Microsoft.a], davide, pladd
15:03:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see BobLund, pladd, davide, joesteele, paulc, jdsmith, Zakim, RRSAgent, glenn, trackbot, wseltzer
15:03:53 [glenn]
zakim, [Adobe] has joesteele
15:03:53 [Zakim]
+joesteele; got it
15:03:56 [adrianba]
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15:04:16 [paulc]
Looking for a scribe!
15:05:20 [ddorwin]
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15:05:23 [joesteele]
Scribe: joesteele
15:05:27 [joesteele]
Chair: paulc
15:05:37 [paulc]
15:05:37 [joesteele]
Topic: Agenda
15:05:46 [Zakim]
15:05:53 [joesteele]
zakim, who is here?
15:05:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see paulc, glenn, [Adobe], [Microsoft.a], davide, pladd, ddorwin
15:05:55 [Zakim]
[Adobe] has joesteele
15:05:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ddorwin, adrianba, BobLund, pladd, davide, joesteele, paulc, jdsmith, Zakim, RRSAgent, glenn, trackbot, wseltzer
15:06:03 [joesteele]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:06:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
15:06:26 [joesteele]
Topic: previous minutes
15:06:35 [paulc]
15:06:49 [joesteele]
paulc: don't believe anything specific -- actions have been carried forward
15:06:59 [joesteele]
topic: review of actions items in the agenda
15:07:02 [Zakim]
15:07:09 [paulc]
15:07:09 [trackbot]
ISSUE-1 -- Consider moving the Clear Key definition into a separate specification -- raised
15:07:09 [trackbot]
15:07:13 [joesteele]
paulc: standing issue we plan on dealing with later
15:07:24 [joesteele]
topic: EME status and bugs
15:07:38 [paulc]
Editor's draft:
15:07:49 [joesteele]
paulc: editors draft has not been updated since July 16th
15:07:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.310.210.aaaa
15:08:07 [paulc]
Outstanding bugs:
15:08:08 [joesteele]
... as of yesterday - 15 bugs
15:08:38 [joesteele]
topic: bug#21854
15:09:01 [joesteele]
paulc: david replied this morning
15:09:06 [paulc]
15:09:38 [joesteele]
ddorwin: a few minor tweaks about error state , ready state
15:09:53 [joesteele]
... discussion of keyadded versus keyready -- don't think keyadded needed
15:10:08 [joesteele]
... seems to m ethat every transition has an event so attribute would be a duplicate
15:10:20 [joesteele]
s/m ethat/me that/
15:10:30 [adrianba]
i think it is common to have such a state
15:10:38 [adrianba]
look at XHR or FileReader
15:10:51 [joesteele]
15:10:52 [adrianba]
but can easily live without it
15:11:01 [paulc]
ack joe
15:11:33 [joesteele]
joesteele: agree with adrian - can generate from events if needed
15:11:45 [joesteele]
paulc: enough information to generate the proposal?
15:11:51 [adrianba]
it's a useful debugging tool and not much effort to implement
15:12:48 [joesteele]
ddorwin: this is adrians proposal, responding to adrians comments about XHR
15:12:57 [JamilEllis]
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15:13:04 [joesteele]
... believe that is the ready state event? thought this meant it was a duplicate
15:13:25 [joesteele]
paulc: since folks can live without it - does Adrian have enough information?
15:13:46 [paulc]
zakim, who is here?
15:13:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see paulc, glenn, [Adobe], [Microsoft.a], davide, pladd, ddorwin, BobLund, +1.310.210.aaaa
15:13:49 [Zakim]
[Adobe] has joesteele
15:13:49 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JamilEllis, ddorwin, adrianba, BobLund, pladd, davide, joesteele, paulc, jdsmith, Zakim, RRSAgent, glenn, trackbot, wseltzer
15:14:00 [joesteele]
rrsagent: generate minutes
15:14:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
15:14:15 [joesteele]
paulc: Adrian
15:14:17 [joesteele]
15:14:21 [adrianba]
i think so
15:14:29 [glenn]
zakim, [Microsoft.a] is jdsmith
15:14:29 [Zakim]
+jdsmith; got it
15:14:29 [adrianba]
at least to make progress
15:14:31 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft.a] is jdsmith
15:14:31 [Zakim]
sorry, paulc, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft.a]'
15:14:55 [ddorwin]
adrianba: re: XHR example, are you referring to readystate? readystatechange reflects a change in this event. This seems to be different from the proposal, which has a separate event for the transition into each state.
15:15:14 [joesteele]
paulc: note in the minutes that Adrian will implement as ammended by conversation this week and last week
15:15:31 [joesteele]
topic: bug 21855
15:15:45 [joesteele]
paulc: dependent on 21854 - have a current comment
15:15:53 [paulc]
15:15:55 [Zakim]
- +1.310.210.aaaa
15:16:06 [adrianba]
well, XHR has a readystate variable as well as events - sure the model is slightly different, but it is arguably the same duplication
15:16:10 [adrianba]
FileReader is the same
15:16:15 [adrianba]
I think WebSocket is the same
15:16:24 [joesteele]
ddorwin: not opposing, asking questions
15:16:52 [joesteele]
... some concerns I have are if you call createSession every time, you will have extrat session objects in memory that serve no purpose
15:17:00 [joesteele]
... also this is CDM specific behavior
15:17:03 [adrianba]
image element fires load event and also has a status to say if it is loaded
15:17:09 [joesteele]
... apps might need to have to deal with this
15:17:28 [joesteele]
ddorwin: we are sharing underlying sessions or keys
15:17:46 [joesteele]
... so we need to describe how they translate to actual key and session objects
15:18:19 [joesteele]
paulc: lets split out the diff questions
15:18:19 [paulc]
Are all such objects treated as identical? If not, what is the expected behavior?
15:18:38 [joesteele]
pauc: do you have an answer?
15:18:45 [joesteele]
ddorwin: no -- posing the question
15:18:51 [joesteele]
15:18:54 [paulc]
We are assuming: Sharing underlying session/keys among MediaKeySession objects raises some interesting questions.
15:19:36 [joesteele]
joesteele: think it would be very lightweight -- is that your thinking
15:19:38 [paulc]
ack joe
15:19:42 [joesteele]
ddorwin: still a memory leak
15:19:53 [joesteele]
... for TV playing and playing -- might never go away
15:20:04 [joesteele]
joesteele: makes senses
15:20:10 [joesteele]
15:20:20 [joesteele]
paulc: any answer? or can we move on?
15:20:21 [paulc]
Can update() & close() be called on any of them?
15:20:51 [adrianba]
you can only call update with a response to a keymessage on a given session
15:20:58 [adrianba]
there has to be a correlation
15:20:59 [joesteele]
ddorwin: I assume it would impact all of them
15:21:22 [joesteele]
... you should call update on whoever called keymessage
15:21:25 [adrianba]
you may not get a keymessage if you go straight to READY
15:21:35 [joesteele]
... may be other times when the app calls update
15:22:03 [joesteele]
15:22:10 [paulc]
ack joe
15:22:35 [ddorwin]
is a keymessage is fired after READY (i.e. for renewal), one of the sessions should get the keymessage
15:22:52 [ddorwin]
also, as joesteele says, update() can be called not in response to a keymessage
15:23:13 [joesteele]
joesteele: we could use this as a channel for providing info from app to CDM so update could be called at anytime -- assuming this is allowed
15:23:25 [paulc]
- Which MediaKeySession objects will receive keymessage events (i.e. for renewal)? What about keyerror events?
15:23:52 [joesteele]
joesteele: assume that ALL of the objects would get them
15:24:14 [joesteele]
ddorwin: probably only fire at one object
15:24:43 [joesteele]
... this would make N request to the server
15:24:45 [joesteele]
15:24:57 [paulc]
ack joe
15:24:58 [adrianba]
you should not get keymessage events to all the sessions
15:25:03 [adrianba]
that's the problem we're trying to solve
15:25:07 [adrianba]
you only need one keymessage event
15:25:23 [adrianba]
because you're only going to perform one network interaction
15:25:34 [adrianba]
if you fire against all sessions then you don't eliminate the network connections
15:25:58 [joesteele]
ddorwin: may be talking about diff things -- I am assuming a single application
15:26:14 [joesteele]
... those would all be session objects for the same MediaKeys on the same MediaElement
15:26:26 [joesteele]
... yours seems to be re-using offline or saved keys
15:27:38 [joesteele]
joesteele: good example - I was thinking of the domain key model where a domain key is shared between two applications
15:28:48 [joesteele]
ddorwin: not a key?
15:29:03 [joesteele]
joesteele: I am talking about an actual key -- acquired by both applications
15:29:17 [joesteele]
ddorwin: close on that might be different
15:30:27 [joesteele]
concern that you would be getting two types of keys in the same session
15:31:12 [joesteele]
paulc: what do you think happens on close?
15:31:25 [joesteele]
joesteele: think the keys are ref-counted -- would close as session is closed
15:31:43 [Zakim]
15:31:44 [joesteele]
ddorwin: question -- would domain key be saved only for the lifetime of the session?
15:31:52 [pal]
pal has joined #html-media
15:32:17 [paulc]
Who just joined as +[IPcaller]?
15:32:54 [joesteele]
joesteele: could be stored or could stay around only as long as a session is using it
15:35:00 [pal]
zakim, i am IPcaller
15:35:00 [Zakim]
ok, pal, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
15:35:25 [joesteele]
joesteele: concern with keeping multiple instances of keys around in memory if needed
15:35:39 [joesteele]
paulc: need answers in the bug to further resolve this
15:36:16 [joesteele]
topic: ACTION-25
15:36:20 [joesteele]
15:36:20 [trackbot]
ACTION-25 -- David Dorwin to and John S to work on corner cases for bug 17673 -- due 2013-07-19 -- OPEN
15:36:20 [trackbot]
15:36:38 [joesteele]
topic: bug 17673
15:36:51 [joesteele]
paulc: related to action above
15:37:09 [paulc]
15:37:18 [joesteele]
paulc: David, added lots of comments, are these implementation comments - would they allow someone to support this?
15:37:32 [joesteele]
ddorwin: someone will have to deepdive into ISOBMFF
15:37:45 [joesteele]
... some of this is specific changes to proposed text
15:37:49 [joesteele]
... rest is more general issues
15:38:10 [joesteele]
paulc: we expect John SImmons to be engaged here right?
15:38:12 [joesteele]
ddorwin: yes
15:38:23 [joesteele]
paulc: maybe we should wait until John comes back from leave
15:38:34 [joesteele]
ddorwin: yes - need Johns feedback
15:38:42 [joesteele]
paulc: leave action item open
15:39:05 [joesteele]
... move date forward?
15:39:35 [paulc]
ACTION-25 is due Aug 13
15:39:53 [joesteele]
action-25 due 08-13-2013
15:39:53 [trackbot]
Set ACTION-25 And John S to work on corner cases for bug 17673 due date to 2013-07-19.
15:40:41 [joesteele]
topic: bug 17750 (action-27)
15:40:45 [joesteele]
15:40:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-27 -- Adrian Bateman to add comments to bug 17750 summarising the recent discussion of close -- due 2013-07-09 -- CLOSED
15:40:45 [trackbot]
15:41:09 [joesteele]
paulc: don't believe any responses to Adrian yet
15:41:23 [paulc]
15:41:23 [joesteele]
15:41:54 [joesteele]
paulc: any responses? looks like no
15:42:54 [joesteele]
ddorwin: might have been looking for Marks input as well
15:43:03 [joesteele]
... don't have any comments other than that
15:43:21 [joesteele]
topic: bug 18515
15:43:32 [joesteele]
paulc: discussed on July 2nd
15:43:43 [paulc]
15:44:13 [joesteele]
paulc: is this worth spending time on now?
15:44:26 [joesteele]
ddorwin: respding to Joe's comment
15:44:35 [joesteele]
... behavior would be the same - not planning to change the state
15:44:50 [joesteele]
... just need to figure out how to implement
15:45:13 [joesteele]
paulc: so you need to make a proposal or the change -- do you need more information?
15:45:34 [joesteele]
... see Joe's last question
15:45:40 [paulc]
But I am not sure that fully answers the questions I raised. Does this mean the media element remains in the HAVE_FUTURE_DATA state forever? Or can the CDM signal that it has determined that the proper key will never be acquired and therefore playback should be stopped and an error reported?
15:45:48 [joesteele]
ddorwin: not really in that state -- just behaving like that
15:46:42 [joesteele]
joesteele: that makes sense - but would like to know how to determine this
15:46:54 [joesteele]
ddorwin: not sure we can track this
15:47:01 [JamilEllis]
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15:47:11 [joesteele]
... media element starts playing when it has keys and pauses when it does not have them
15:47:23 [joesteele]
... if we want an indication -- need to add something to the spec
15:47:30 [joesteele]
... some text that says media element is waiting for a key
15:47:47 [joesteele]
... follows some other non-identifiable states in the media element spec
15:47:58 [joesteele]
... don't actually have a state or event for this
15:48:05 [joesteele]
... this would be a media element state
15:48:20 [joesteele]
... not clear what you would do with it?
15:48:32 [joesteele]
... please bring forward a proposal on what you would use it for
15:49:04 [joesteele]
joesteele: I will propose something in the bug after some more though
15:49:14 [joesteele]
s/more though/more thought/
15:49:21 [joesteele]
paulc: no more bugs today -- discuss scheduling
15:49:29 [joesteele]
rrsagent: generate minutes
15:49:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
15:49:46 [joesteele]
paulc: CFC out right now for taking MSE to Last Call -- ends this week
15:50:11 [joesteele]
... nominally MSE would meet next week on the 6th, but only two LC bugs to deal with and I am not available
15:50:24 [joesteele]
... could stay with same schedule -- MSE call occurs or not next week
15:50:44 [joesteele]
... or could do more work on EME right now -- I will prep agenda and we can make more progress on the bugs
15:51:01 [joesteele]
... concerned that we are not making progress outside the meetings other than David
15:51:14 [joesteele]
... need to decide what the right mtg schedule is
15:51:22 [joesteele]
paulc: any holidays coming in August?
15:51:28 [joesteele]
ddorwin: not anything major
15:51:40 [joesteele]
paulc: Aaron is away this week
15:51:54 [joesteele]
... does is make sense for EME to meet next week?
15:52:02 [joesteele]
joesteele: I would prefer to meet next week
15:52:28 [joesteele]
glenn: should stay on EME and get the bugs down
15:52:41 [joesteele]
joesteele: I meant EME
15:52:54 [joesteele]
jdsmith: agree -- it would be good to focus on EME
15:53:26 [joesteele]
ddorwin: most of the work is offline I think at this point - hard to discuss on a telecon
15:54:02 [joesteele]
paulc: before mtg, sent a note to the editors on asking for help on bugs to process but never heard back from Mark or Adrian
15:54:18 [joesteele]
... are you saying these are outstanding because they are hard?
15:54:45 [joesteele]
... can you live with trying to meet next week? and editors could pick one or two to close?
15:54:48 [joesteele]
ddorwin: yes
15:55:03 [paulc]
Schedule: EME will meet on Aug 6 and Aug 13
15:55:03 [joesteele]
paulc: I will propose we meet on both 8/16 and 8/13
15:55:18 [paulc]
That means MSE misses one meeting on Aug 6
15:55:28 [paulc]
And we will decide later who meets on Aug 20.
15:55:43 [joesteele]
15:55:45 [joesteele]
15:56:08 [joesteele]
paulc: will resend the editors msg -- but anyone can propose bugs to discuss at next meeting
15:56:19 [joesteele]
... or make a comment on a bug -- this will push to the top
15:56:27 [joesteele]
rrsagent: generate minutes
15:56:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
15:56:31 [glenn]
15:56:32 [joesteele]
zakim, who is here?
15:56:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see paulc, glenn, [Adobe], jdsmith, davide, pladd, ddorwin, BobLund, [IPcaller]
15:56:34 [Zakim]
[Adobe] has joesteele
15:56:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JamilEllis, pal, ddorwin, BobLund, pladd, davide, joesteele, paulc, jdsmith, Zakim, RRSAgent, glenn, trackbot, wseltzer
15:57:01 [joesteele]
glenn: may be some bugs that have been pushed off because they are not getting a lot of attention but could be dispatched quickly
15:57:15 [joesteele]
paulc: not assuming that, hoping for editors to tell me that
15:57:38 [joesteele]
... so unless someone nominates something specific we do them in reverse order?
15:57:42 [joesteele]
glenn: yes
15:58:00 [joesteele]
paulc: will work with the editors to determine the order
15:58:18 [joesteele]
ddorwin: let me know if one is trivial
15:58:30 [joesteele]
paulc: will do an agenda but won't be here next week
15:58:41 [joesteele]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
15:58:54 [joesteele]
paulc: thanks all!
15:58:57 [Zakim]
15:58:58 [Zakim]
15:58:58 [Zakim]
15:59:00 [Zakim]
15:59:01 [Zakim]
15:59:01 [Zakim]
15:59:03 [Zakim]
15:59:04 [joesteele]
... we are adjourned
15:59:07 [Zakim]
15:59:09 [Zakim]
15:59:10 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()11:00AM has ended
15:59:10 [Zakim]
Attendees were glenn, davide, paulc, pladd, joesteele, ddorwin, BobLund, +1.310.210.aaaa, jdsmith, [IPcaller]
15:59:13 [joesteele]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:59:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:00:42 [davide]
davide has left #html-media
16:00:47 [davide]
davide has joined #html-media
16:00:47 [davide]
davide has left #html-media
16:01:50 [joesteele]
16:01:52 [joesteele]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:01:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:03:28 [joesteele]
16:03:31 [joesteele]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:03:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:03:57 [pal]
pal has joined #html-media
16:04:30 [joesteele]
s/ends this week/ends next week/
16:04:33 [joesteele]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:04:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:04:47 [joesteele]
s/does is/does it/
16:04:49 [joesteele]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:04:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:06:09 [joesteele]
s/N request/N requests/
16:06:11 [joesteele]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:06:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:06:45 [joesteele]
s/concern that you/ddorwin: concern that you/
16:06:47 [joesteele]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:06:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:07:34 [joesteele]
zakim, bye
16:07:34 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-media
16:07:38 [joesteele]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:07:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:07:50 [joesteele]
trackbot, bye
16:07:50 [trackbot]
trackbot has left #html-media
16:07:53 [joesteele]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:07:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:07:59 [joesteele]
rrsagent, bye
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items