16:37:12 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:37:12 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-ua-irc 16:37:14 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:37:16 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:37:16 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 23 minutes 16:37:17 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:37:17 Date: 25 July 2013 16:37:25 rrsagent, set logs public 16:59:03 sharper has joined #ua 16:59:19 Agenda+ timeline 16:59:21 Agenda+ Action-829 Kim/Eric Proposal 16:59:22 Agenda+ Kim - Modality Independent Controls 16:59:24 Agenda+ Jan Proposal 16:59:25 - 16:59:27 turn security 16:59:28 16:59:30 paragraph 16:59:31 i 16:59:33 n overview to note in 4.1 16:59:34 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:59:34 Agenda+ Jan Proposal - rewording GL1.1 SCs 16:59:36 agenda+ Survey from 4 July https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130702/ 16:59:39 zakim, agenda? 16:59:39 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 16:59:40 2. Survey from 4 July https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130702/ [from kford] 16:59:40 4. timeline [from allanj] 16:59:40 5. Action-829 Kim/Eric Proposal [from allanj] 16:59:40 6. Kim - Modality Independent Controls [from allanj] 16:59:40 7. Jan Proposal [from allanj] 16:59:40 8. Jan Proposal - rewording GL1.1 SCs [from allanj] 16:59:41 9. Survey from 4 July https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130702/ [from allanj] 16:59:42 +Jeanne 17:00:22 zakim, close item 2 17:00:22 agendum 2, Survey from 4 July https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130702/, closed 17:00:24 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:00:24 4. timeline [from allanj] 17:00:55 Jan has joined #ua 17:01:11 zakim, code? 17:01:11 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 17:01:27 +[IPcaller] 17:01:45 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 17:01:45 +Jan; got it 17:01:58 +Jim_Allan 17:03:17 kford has joined #ua 17:03:51 +??P7 17:04:10 +[Microsoft] 17:04:24 zakim, microsoft is kford 17:04:24 +kford; got it 17:04:37 zakim, ??P7 is sharper 17:04:37 +sharper; got it 17:05:22 Greg has joined #ua 17:05:40 + +1.609.734.aaaa 17:05:57 +Greg_Lowney 17:08:11 zakim, who is here? 17:08:11 On the phone I see Jeanne, Jan, Jim_Allan, sharper, kford, +1.609.734.aaaa, Greg_Lowney 17:08:13 On IRC I see Greg, kford, Jan, sharper, RRSAgent, allanj, jeanne, trackbot, Zakim 17:09:01 zakim, agenda? 17:09:01 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 17:09:02 4. timeline [from allanj] 17:09:02 5. Action-829 Kim/Eric Proposal [from allanj] 17:09:02 6. Kim - Modality Independent Controls [from allanj] 17:09:02 7. Jan Proposal [from allanj] 17:09:02 8. Jan Proposal - rewording GL1.1 SCs [from allanj] 17:09:02 9. Survey from 4 July https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130702/ [from allanj] 17:09:26 zakim, drop aaaa 17:09:26 +1.609.734.aaaa is being disconnected 17:09:27 - +1.609.734.aaaa 17:09:44 zakim, take up item 4 17:09:44 agendum 4. "timeline" taken up [from allanj] 17:09:59 Scribe: kford 17:10:43 JA: We need to looooooook timeline. 17:10:55 JA: Origianlly we were going to be at last call. 17:10:57 + +1.609.734.aabb 17:11:09 JA: Not going to make it. 17:11:19 zakim, aabb is Eric 17:11:19 +Eric; got it 17:11:20 JA: On Kelly and myself to keep on more on Track. 17:11:47 JS: Critical item to get on track is to finsih comments. 17:11:54 JS: That was finish. 17:12:04 J 17:12:18 Eric_Hansen has joined #ua 17:12:19 JS gives shout out to Jan and says we all need to improve on proposals. 17:12:27 rrsagent, make minutes 17:12:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-ua-minutes.html kford 17:12:55 zakim, close item 4 17:12:55 agendum 4, timeline, closed 17:12:56 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:12:56 5. Action-829 Kim/Eric Proposal [from allanj] 17:13:03 zakim, take up item 7 17:13:03 agendum 7. "Jan Proposal" taken up [from allanj] 17:13:10 JS: Everyone please take 2-3 item that are on the spreadsheet labeled "Needs Proposal" and write proposals. 17:13:16 JA: Taking up JR's proposal. 17:14:28 allanj has joined #ua 17:14:51 JR and JA sorting out what proposal this is. 17:15:11 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0006.html 17:16:10 JA: This started as an action item from two weeks ago. 17:16:27 JA: This proposal is to put the texst under GL 4.1. 17:16:33 proposal: add note to 4.1 17:16:34 Note: Some approaches to implementing success criteria in this guideline, and elsewhere in UAAG 2.0, may have security implications. It is the responsibility of UAAG 2.0 implementers to ensure that user agent security is not compromised. 17:17:37 GL: This makes it sound like it is all up to the UA developer but I think we mean that this isn't really all up to the UA dev but more on the platform devs. I think this paragraph gives the backward impression. 17:17:46 GL: Does that make sense? 17:17:53 JS: Yes but how would you say it? 17:19:42 Group still sorting things out on where proposal came from. 17:19:52 Here's the comments: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/commentsWD-20130701.html 17:19:54 I would add something like "UAAG 2.0 assumes that platform accessibility API will be built on top of underlying security architectures that will allow user agents to comply with both the success criteria and security needs." 17:21:03 +1 17:21:11 Editors can shorten it a bit later. 17:21:13 Group working through issues and settling on rewording by GL. 17:21:19 JA: Any objections? 17:21:23 None heard. 17:21:35 Resolved: Update with rewording above from GL. 17:23:06 It's pretty strange to have a Note under 4.1 that explicitly says it is also about things outside of 4.1. 17:24:16 More discussion about location of text being discussed and applicability. 17:26:13 JR: My biggest concern was just that this was in the overview. Overviews generally cover what comes later but this doesn't come later. 17:26:16 Resolution: add UAAG 2.0 assumes that platform accessibility API will be built on top of underlying security architectures that will allow user agents to comply with both the success criteria and security needs. as a note to GL 4.1 remove text in conceptual overview 17:26:25 JA: But there were not big objections so we are going to do this still. 17:26:37 close action-848 17:26:37 Closed ACTION-848 Turn security paragraph in overview into a proposed note for the programmatic access GL. 17:27:06 zakim, close item 7 17:27:06 agendum 7, Jan Proposal, closed 17:27:08 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:27:08 5. Action-829 Kim/Eric Proposal [from allanj] 17:27:28 zakim, agenda? 17:27:28 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 17:27:29 5. Action-829 Kim/Eric Proposal [from allanj] 17:27:29 6. Kim - Modality Independent Controls [from allanj] 17:27:29 8. Jan Proposal - rewording GL1.1 SCs [from allanj] 17:27:29 9. Survey from 4 July https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130702/ [from allanj] 17:27:38 zakim, take up item 8 17:27:38 agendum 8. "Jan Proposal - rewording GL1.1 SCs" taken up [from allanj] 17:27:52 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0008.html 17:28:19 allanj has joined #ua 17:29:07 JR going through proposal. 17:29:23 JR reading current proposal. 17:29:34 +Kim_Patch 17:29:46 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:31:11 EH: This seems clearer. 17:31:24 +1 to Jan's rewording 17:33:39 resolution: new 1.1.1 wording 1.1.1 Render Alternative Content: The user can choose to render any type of recognized alternative content that are present for a content element. (Level A) 17:33:41 - Note: It is recommended that the user agent allow the user to choose whether the alternative content replaces or supplements the original content element. 17:34:45 JR: Moving something from 1.31D to this area. 17:35:01 GL: What are you referencing? 17:35:02 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0008.html 17:35:12 "NEW (WAS PART OF 1.3.1)" 17:36:20 JR: By moving here, we are being less perscriptive about how to make these indicators and adding clarity to what we want by putting it in this document. 17:36:41 proposed: 1.1.X Indicate Unrendered Alternative Content: The user can specify that indicators be displayed with rendered content when recognized unrendered alternative content is present. (Level A) 17:37:01 remove "d" in 1.3.1 17:41:41 Action :JR write new IER for 1.1.X Indicate Unrendered Alternative Content: The user can specify that indicators be displayed with rendered content when recognized unrendered alternative content is present. (Level A) 17:41:52 Action: JR write new IER for 1.1.X Indicate Unrendered Alternative Content: The user can specify that indicators be displayed with rendered content when recognized unrendered alternative content is present. (Level A) 17:41:52 Created ACTION-852 - Write new IER for 1.1.X Indicate Unrendered Alternative Content: The user can specify that indicators be displayed with rendered content when recognized unrendered alternative content is present. (Level A) [on Jan Richards - due 2013-08-01]. 17:42:00 resolution: add 1.1.X Indicate Unrendered Alternative Content: The user can specify that indicators be displayed with rendered content when recognized unrendered alternative content is present. (Level A) 17:42:23 Moving to next item. 17:42:32 1.1.2 17:42:32 CURRENT: 1.1.2 Replace Non-Text Content: The user can have all recognized non-text content replaced by alternative content, placeholders, or both. (Level A) 17:42:34 - Note: At level A, the user agent can specify that an alternative content or placeholder replace the non-text content. At level AA success criterion 1.1.3 requires that the user can specify one format or placeholder to be used. At level AAA success criterion 1.1.5 requires that the user can specify a cascade order of types of alternative content to be used. 17:42:36 JR reading again. 17:42:52 PROPOSED: 1.1.2 Non-Text Content Placeholder: The user can request a placeholder incorporating recognized text alternative content instead of recognized non-text content, until explicit user request to load the non-text content. (Level A) 17:43:55 GL: A verb sir, we need a verb. 17:44:08 JR: Trying to match: 2.11.2 Execution Placeholder: The user can request a placeholder instead of executable content that would normally be contained within an on-screen area (e.g. Applet, Flash), until explicit user request to execute. (Level A) 17:45:04 "can request a placeholder...be rendered instead of..." but that's editorial. 17:45:49 JA: Any objections to the new proposal? 17:45:57 ok with me 17:45:58 JA: Editor will sort out last details. 17:46:07 No objections heard. 17:46:27 resolution: add new wording 1.1.2 Non-Text Content Placeholder: The user can request a placeholder incorporating recognized text alternative content instead of recognized non-text content, until explicit user request to load the non-text content. (Level A) 17:47:33 topic: 1.1.3 17:47:49 CURRENT: 1.1.3 Configurable Alternative Content Defaults: For each type of content that can have alternative content, the user can specify a type of alternative content that, if present, will be rendered by default. (Level AA) 17:47:51 PROPOSED: 1.1.3 Configurable Alternative Content Defaults: For each type of non-text content, including time-based media, the user can specify which type(s) of alternative content to render by default, if present. (Level AA) 17:47:52 Note: Some types of content may allow multiple simultaneous alternatives (e.g. captions and sign language). 17:48:45 +1 17:49:49 action: jeanne to look at 1.3.1 and see if any examples depend on (d)elements with alternative content 17:49:49 Created ACTION-853 - Look at 1.3.1 and see if any examples depend on (d)elements with alternative content [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-08-01]. 17:51:09 Group having a discussion about type or types. 17:51:28 GL: We need to be clear about if a choice is to be made by the user or the developer. 17:53:49 resolution: change wording for 1.1.3 Configurable Alternative Content Defaults: For each type of non-text content, including time-based media, the user can specify which type(s) of alternative content to render by default, if present. (Level AA) 17:53:56 No further objections. 17:54:01 topic: 1.1.4 17:54:10 Now moving to 1.1.4 17:54:26 1.1.4 Display of Alternative Content for Time-Based Media: For recognized on-screen alternative content for time-based media (e.g. captions, sign language video), the following are all true: (Level AA) 17:54:27 - Don't obscure controls: Displaying time-based media alternatives doesn't obscure recognized controls for the primary time-based media; and 17:54:29 - Don't obscure primary media: The user can specify that displaying time-based media alternatives doesn't obscure the primary time-based media; and 17:54:30 - Use configurable text: The user can configure recognized text within time-based media alternatives (e.g. captions) in conformance with 1.4.1. 17:54:32 - Note: Depending on the screen area available, the display of the primary time-based media may need to be reduced in size to meet this requirement. 17:54:37 JR: Change doesn't seem dramatic. 17:58:31 action: jim to compare 1.1.4 - obscure media with the media task force guidelines 17:58:31 Created ACTION-854 - Compare 1.1.4 - obscure media with the media task force guidelines [on Jim Allan - due 2013-08-01]. 17:59:31 Group talking about backgrounds for captions. 18:01:05 SH: Are captions different from subtitles? 18:01:52 SH Talks about some work being done by the BBC to move location of subtitles based on user focus. 18:02:57 Group having extensive discussion about does the caption have to be separated from the video. 18:03:13 Issue is that if you make captions so big you start obscuring video. 18:03:34 The situation is bioling down to what happens when youmake caption text so big that you hide too much of the video. 18:04:04 JR: How about if we define obscure and talk about this issue there. 18:04:13 rrsagent, make minutes 18:04:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-ua-minutes.html kford 18:05:31 s/bioling/boiling 18:09:01 Action: JR to define "obscure" to allow transparent backgrounds but also raising the possibility of seperation where screen real estate is available 18:09:01 Created ACTION-855 - Define "obscure" to allow transparent backgrounds but also raising the possibility of seperation where screen real estate is available [on Jan Richards - due 2013-08-01]. 18:09:07 PF media task force information http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-media-accessibility-reqs-20120103/#requirements-on-the-use-of-the-viewport 18:09:46 close action-854 18:09:46 Closed ACTION-854 Compare 1.1.4 - obscure media with the media task force guidelines. 18:10:26 resolution: to reword 1.1.4 to 1.1.4 Display of Alternative Content for Time-Based Media: For recognized on-screen alternative content for time-based media (e.g. captions, sign language video), the following are all true: (Level AA) 18:10:27 - Don't obscure controls: Displaying time-based media alternatives doesn't obscure recognized controls for the primary time-based media; and 18:10:29 - Don't obscure primary media: The user can specify that displaying time-based media alternatives doesn't obscure the primary time-based media; and 18:10:30 - Use configurable text: The user can configure recognized text within time-based media alternatives (e.g. captions) in conformance with 1.4.1. 18:10:32 - Note: Depending on the screen area available, the display of the primary time-based media may need to be reduced in size to meet this requirement. 18:10:45 topic: 1.1.5 18:10:56 CURRENT: 1.1.5 Default Rendering of Alternative Content (Enhanced): For each type of non-text content, the user can specify the cascade order in which to render different types of alternative content when preferred types are not present. (Level AAA) 18:11:35 similar to jaws images - use alt, title, caption, longest 18:11:55 JR now going through next proposal. 18:12:30 Not likely to see anyne create this one. 18:12:53 JR talks abouthow JAWS does do this cascade. 18:13:09 JS: that would not count. 18:13:18 JS: JAWS is not a browser. 18:14:10 +1 to removal 18:15:05 kf: is JAWS a browser? it reads a bunch of the DOM. 18:16:48 s/abouthow/about how 18:17:27 jaws requires a browser to download html 18:19:04 resolution: delete 1.1.5 18:19:17 topic: 1.1.6 18:19:27 Group now looking at 1.1.6\ 18:19:37 PROPOSED REWORDING@: 1.1.6 Size and Position of Time-Based Media Alternatives: The user can configure recognized alternative content for time-based media (e.g. captions, sign language video) as follows: (Level AAA) 18:19:38 - The user can resize alternative content for time-based media up to the size of the user agent's viewport. 18:19:40 - The user can reposition alternative content for time-based media to at least @TWO OF THE FOLLOWING: above, below, to the right, to the left, and overlapping the primary time-based media. 18:19:41 - Note 1: Depending on the screen area available, the display of the primary time-based media may need to be reduced in size or hidden to meet this requirement. 18:19:43 - Note 2: Implementation may involve displaying alternative content for time-based media in a separate viewport, but this is not required. 18:24:54 Group sagreeing on this. 18:25:29 resolution: change 1.1.6 1.1.6 Size and Position of Time-Based Media Alternatives: The user can configure recognized alternative content for time-based media (e.g. captions, sign language video) as follows: (Level AAA) 18:25:30 allanj - The user can resize alternative content for time-based media up to the size of the user agent's viewport. 18:25:32 allanj - The user can reposition alternative content for time-based media to at least two or more of the following: above, below, to the right, to the left, and overlapping the primary time-based media. 18:25:33 allanj - Note 1: Depending on the screen area available, the display of the primary time-based media may need to be reduced in size or hidden to meet this requirement. 18:25:35 allanj - Note 2: Implementation may involve displaying alternative content for time-based media in a separate viewport, but this is not required. 18:27:32 s/sagreeing/agreeing 18:28:12 rrsagent, make minutes 18:28:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:33:57 -Eric 18:34:03 -Jan 18:34:21 -kford 18:34:23 -Greg_Lowney 18:34:29 -Jeanne 18:34:31 -Kim_Patch 18:34:38 -Jim_Allan 18:34:59 zakim, please part 18:34:59 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, Jan, Jim_Allan, kford, sharper, +1.609.734.aaaa, Greg_Lowney, +1.609.734.aabb, Eric, Kim_Patch 18:34:59 Zakim has left #ua 18:35:15 rrsagent, make minutes 18:35:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:35:54 rrsagent, please part 18:35:54 I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-ua-actions.rdf : 18:35:54 ACTION: JR write new IER for 1.1.X Indicate Unrendered Alternative Content: The user can specify that indicators be displayed with rendered content when recognized unrendered alternative content is present. (Level A) [1] 18:35:54 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-ua-irc#T17-41-41 18:35:54 ACTION: JR write new IER for 1.1.X Indicate Unrendered Alternative Content: The user can specify that indicators be displayed with rendered content when recognized unrendered alternative content is present. (Level A) [2] 18:35:54 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-ua-irc#T17-41-52 18:35:54 ACTION: jeanne to look at 1.3.1 and see if any examples depend on (d)elements with alternative content [3] 18:35:54 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-ua-irc#T17-49-49 18:35:54 ACTION: jim to compare 1.1.4 - obscure media with the media task force guidelines [4] 18:35:54 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-ua-irc#T17-58-31 18:35:54 ACTION: JR to define "obscure" to allow transparent backgrounds but also raising the possibility of seperation where screen real estate is available [5] 18:35:54 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-ua-irc#T18-09-01