15:15:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:15:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/24-css-irc
15:15:51 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:15:51 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 45 minutes
15:15:56 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:16:04 <glazou> glazou has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0518.html
15:23:17 <SimonSapin> These weekly incantations are so "Elders of the Internet" ;)
15:25:52 <glazou> eheh
15:28:28 <glazou> I also play the "Elder of the Bakery" every evening "Bonjour madame, une baguette de tradition svp" ;-p
15:30:04 <Ms2ger> Those French :)
15:31:11 <glazou> Ms2ger, hey I go to Delhaize for my daily cramique when I'm in Brussels :-)
15:32:57 <SimonSapin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDbyYGrswtg
15:35:48 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
15:37:09 <glazou> LOL
15:47:53 <sgalineau> sgalineau has joined #css
15:54:44 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:54:50 <Zakim> + +1.520.280.aaaa
15:55:13 <Zakim> +??P21
15:55:37 <Zakim> +??P22
15:55:54 <glazou> Zakim, ?P22 is me
15:55:54 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P22'
15:56:00 <glazou> Zakim, ??P22 is me
15:56:00 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:56:34 <lmclister> lmclister has joined #css
15:57:04 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is briankardell
15:57:04 <Zakim> +briankardell; got it
15:57:40 <glazou> Zakim, mute ??P21
15:57:40 <Zakim> ??P21 should now be muted
15:58:16 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
15:58:35 <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aabb
15:58:43 <sgalineau> Zakim, aabb is me
15:58:43 <Zakim> +sgalineau; got it
15:58:51 <Zakim> +plinss
15:58:53 <Dael> Dael has joined #css
15:59:28 <florian> florian has joined #css
15:59:50 <BradK> BradK has joined #CSS
15:59:51 <Zakim> +dael
16:00:09 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:17 <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
16:00:17 <Zakim> +florian; got it
16:00:34 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #CSS
16:00:37 <Zakim> +BradK
16:00:38 <Zakim> +Plh
16:00:39 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
16:00:47 <Zakim> + +93192aacc
16:00:53 <Zakim> +??P66
16:00:54 <antonp> Zakim, aacc is me
16:00:54 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:00:57 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
16:01:07 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (8%), antonp (84%)
16:01:09 <Zakim> +??P72
16:01:22 <antonp> Zakim, mute me
16:01:22 <Zakim> antonp should now be muted
16:01:38 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P72 is me
16:01:38 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:01:42 <Zakim> +Lea
16:01:56 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:02:07 <SimonSapin> ... maybe
16:02:10 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:02:10 <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:02:11 <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
16:02:37 <Zakim> +Bert
16:02:44 <shezbaig_wk> shezbaig_wk has joined #css
16:03:00 <Zakim> + +1.415.615.aadd
16:03:09 <rhauck> Zakim, aadd is me
16:03:09 <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
16:03:35 <SimonSapin> q-
16:03:36 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:03:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:04:08 <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk
16:04:13 <krit1> krit1 has joined #css
16:04:24 <krit1> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see briankardell, ??P21 (muted), glazou, sgalineau, plinss, dael, [IPcaller], BradK, Plh, antonp (muted), ??P66, SimonSapin, Lea, [Microsoft], fantasai, Bert,
16:04:27 <Zakim> ... rhauck, [IPcaller.a], shezbaig_wk
16:04:27 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:04:27 <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
16:04:27 <Zakim> +smfr
16:05:01 <krit1> zakim, P66 is me
16:05:01 <Zakim> sorry, krit1, I do not recognize a party named 'P66'
16:05:05 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:05:19 <krit> zakim, ??P66 is me
16:05:19 <Zakim> +krit; got it
16:05:50 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:06:40 <fantasai> glazou: Where are we wrt variables?
16:06:44 <glazou> leaverou, this is THIS WEEK's call and agenda
16:06:56 <fantasai> fantasai: LC wasn't published
16:07:09 <fantasai> florian: It sort-of was. if you add -1 to the end of the url, it's published there
16:07:16 <fantasai> fantasai: Was an announcement posted to www-style?
16:07:18 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:07:20 <glazou> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-variables-1/
16:07:29 <florian> not LC: http://www.w3.org/TR/css-variables/
16:07:29 <florian> LC: http://www.w3.org/TR/css-variables-1/
16:07:33 <fantasai> fantasai: If it wasn't announced and didn't show up at the old URL, I don't think we can consider it published.
16:07:45 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:08:08 <fantasai> glazou: Was it announced to chairs@?
16:08:22 <fantasai> plh would have to look into it
16:08:36 <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0701.html
16:08:37 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:08:45 <Zakim> +??P108
16:08:48 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
16:08:50 <glenn> zakim, ??p108 is me
16:08:50 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
16:09:02 <fantasai> fantasai: I would be uncomfortable closing the LC period if no announcement was posted in CSSWG channels
16:09:09 <fantasai> fantasai: and it didn't even show up to replace the old draft
16:09:23 <fantasai> florian: There's also 3 open issues in the ED
16:09:28 <c_palmer> c_palmer has joined #css
16:09:42 <MaRakow> MaRakow has joined #CSS
16:09:44 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:09:48 <fantasai> glazou: Not announced on www-style. This is painful
16:10:14 <fantasai> fantasai: It's the editor's responsibility to publish the draft
16:10:25 <fantasai> dbaron: But nobody tells the editor that the draft has been published
16:10:26 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:10:30 <fantasai> glazou: What should we do?
16:10:42 <fantasai> plh: I would concur with fantasai. If it wasn't announced, redo LC period
16:10:42 <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
16:10:42 <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
16:10:47 <fantasai> florian: Need to get the links in synch
16:11:06 <fantasai> ACTION plh: have /TR/css-variables/ alias to /TR/css-variables-1/
16:11:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-569 - Have /TR/css-variables/ alias to /TR/css-variables-1/ [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2013-07-31].
16:11:27 <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk.a
16:11:42 <fantasai> chrisL: I would just extend the deadline
16:11:55 <fantasai> fantasai: There were also some significant changes we wanted to make, so maybe we should make those changes and republish LC
16:12:22 <fantasai> ...
16:12:48 <fantasai> fantasai: There's an issue for example on interaction with the 'all' property, and we decided it doesn't reset variables, but an 'var' shorthand will reset all variables, so that needs to be added to the draft.
16:13:23 <fantasai> chrisL: Doesn't sound like too much work, could publish on Tuesd probably
16:13:54 <fantasai> dbaron: What values does 'var' take?
16:13:55 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
16:14:03 <fantasai> SimonSapin: Same as 'all'?
16:14:06 <cabanier> cabanier has joined #css
16:14:14 <fantasai> fantasai: I think Tab proposed <'all'>
16:14:38 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:14:39 <Zakim> -krit
16:14:39 <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aaee
16:14:42 <fantasai> dbaron: Initial/inherit, do they have special behavior?
16:14:53 <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
16:14:53 <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
16:14:55 <TabAtkins> Zakim, aaee is me
16:14:55 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
16:15:03 <c_palmer> Zakim, shezbaig_wk.a is me
16:15:04 <Zakim> +c_palmer; got it
16:15:14 <fantasai> glazou: This seems really hacky.
16:15:14 <SimonSapin> Does <'all'> makes Variables refer normatively to Cascade?
16:15:18 <fantasai> yes
16:15:53 <fantasai> dbaron: If 'initial', 'inherit', and 'default' aren't interpreted, then it's special?
16:16:02 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Yeah, well, we haven't decided on that anyway
16:16:11 <fantasai> ...
16:16:25 <fantasai> TabAtkins: The 'var' property isn't a custom property, it's a CSS thing. Assuming that we need that.
16:16:52 <fantasai> glazou: Thought we were going to LC
16:17:09 <fantasai> glazou:  ...
16:17:18 <fantasai> glazou: I would like the use case for this
16:17:31 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Want to block variables inside your little subtree
16:17:41 <dbaron> I'm inclined to think a 'var' shorthand should take only 'initial'.
16:17:46 <fantasai> florian: So, either we decide this is minor enough to handle as an LC comment
16:17:49 <glazou> dbaron, +1
16:18:03 <fantasai> florian: Or we take advantage of having screwed up LC, make the change, and then publish LC
16:18:39 <fantasai> fantasai: If we want to make this change, would suggest we resolve this and republish LC. It's a fairly significant change.
16:19:19 <Zakim> -dbaron
16:19:22 <fantasai> [argument over process]
16:19:31 <dbaron> I've had enough of the chair yelling at the WG.
16:19:38 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
16:19:39 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
16:19:59 <fantasai> glazou: Let's prep the document for a new publication.
16:20:04 <fantasai> glazou: Enough on this topic for today
16:20:08 <fantasai> Topic: Conditional Rules
16:20:25 <fantasai> glazou: dbaron lost, because can't stand ppl being unhappy. Next topic
16:20:29 <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1
16:20:37 <antonp> Zakim, unmute me
16:20:37 <Zakim> antonp should no longer be muted
16:20:47 <Zakim> +nvdbleek
16:20:53 <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
16:20:53 <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
16:20:56 <fantasai> Bert: What do we want to do, before republishing 2.1
16:21:08 <fantasai> Bert: Thought the errata were up-to-date, but some weeks of minutes I haven't checked yet.
16:21:28 <fantasai> Bert: Then there's all the issues in Bugzilla. How many do we want to solve? Do we want to set a deadline for solving them?
16:21:38 <fantasai> Bert: How much effort do we want for those issues
16:21:42 <fantasai> Bert: Also about testing
16:21:55 <fantasai> Bert: The changes we made, I've seen 1-2 that have testcases
16:22:02 <fantasai> Bert: Don't know if others do. Doubt it.
16:22:09 <glazou> plh, +1
16:22:10 <fantasai> Bert: We need to make sure the changes we make are supported by testcases
16:22:16 <fantasai> Bert: Someone needs to do that
16:22:25 <fantasai> Bert: and also need implementations for those testcases
16:22:37 <fantasai> Bert: Any idea of how much effort we need, when we could finish, schedule updated publication?
16:23:20 <fantasai> fantasai: Maybe make a schedule where we deal with 1 issue per [time period]
16:23:32 <fantasai> fantasai: Wrt testcases, dunno, ask rhauck?
16:23:57 <fantasai> florian: What about publication? How often do we want to publish?
16:24:12 <fantasai> fantasai: Need to have tests + impl reports for PER pbulication
16:24:24 <fantasai> florian: But how many issues do we want to solve before publishing?
16:24:32 <fantasai> antonp: Depends on how WG perceives last publish date.
16:24:48 <fantasai> antonp: If you want to send signal that it's improving, republish every 6 months
16:24:58 <fantasai> antonp: Sorry for being out of action on this
16:25:13 <fantasai> antonp^: Not sure makes sense to republish with only 1 erratum
16:26:17 <Ms2ger> Six months is ~25 telcons, so if you decide on one issue every telcon...
16:26:26 <fantasai> fantasai: I think the main thing is to make sure the existing errata are correct, have testcases, impl report
16:26:37 <fantasai> fantasai: Once we're there, can publish any time we want
16:27:10 <fantasai> fantasai: Some of them, might be waiting on implementations to catch up, so would incorporate more issue updates while we wait for that before publishing. That might set the rhythm
16:27:33 <fantasai> JohnJansen: There's also testcases added to the test suite since we publishe REC. Would need to make sure we have impl passes for all of those as well
16:27:44 <fantasai> florian: Is there a rule for handling such things?
16:27:54 <fantasai> JohnJansen: Raises question of what REC means if we publish a new testsuite
16:28:12 <fantasai> florian: It wouldn't make sense to me to block republication of REC on that. it's not like we regressed
16:28:34 <fantasai> Bert: Most concrete thing I heard was to go over the errata that we decided on, make sure correct and have tests
16:28:41 <fantasai> Bert: Maybe we can assign action items for that?
16:28:57 <fantasai> Bert: Since I made the errata, I should not check them :)
16:29:15 <fantasai> Bert: Errata have links to minutes, so should be easy
16:29:25 <fantasai> florian: Not a lot of work, but can be pretty subtle
16:29:46 <fantasai> florian: Sometimes wording in errata slightly off from decisions, problem
16:30:01 <fantasai> antonp: Yeah, we have an existing case of that
16:30:38 <fantasai> ACTION fantasai: Review CSS2.1 errata
16:30:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-570 - Review CSS2.1 errata [on Elika Etemad - due 2013-07-31].
16:30:43 <fantasai> ACTION antonp: Review CSS2.1 errata
16:30:43 <trackbot> Error finding 'antonp'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
16:31:04 <fantasai> fantasai: Rebecca, can you and gtalbot look into that?
16:31:12 <fantasai> ACTION rhauck: Look into tests for CSS2.1 errata
16:31:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-571 - Look into tests for CSS2.1 errata [on Rebecca Hauck - due 2013-07-31].
16:31:42 <rhauck1> rhauck1 has joined #css
16:31:50 <fantasai> dirk's topic deferred to next week
16:31:55 <fantasai> Topic: Republishing Values
16:32:02 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0051.html
16:32:06 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Handful of changes, very minor, not worth LC, but good to correct on /TR
16:32:09 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:32:15 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Changes in changes section of spec
16:32:42 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:32:49 <fantasai> glazou: What do ppl think?
16:33:04 <fantasai> SimonSapin: Yes, let's republish
16:33:11 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Republish Values as CR
16:33:23 <fantasai> Topic: Flexbox LC
16:33:23 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0051.html
16:33:40 <fantasai> skipping to Cascade
16:33:47 <fantasai> Topic: Cascade
16:34:06 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0478.html
16:34:11 <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
16:34:19 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Two issues that needed final resolution.
16:34:36 <TabAtkins> fantasai: First was dropping "default".  Second was adding "unset" for "initial or inherit".
16:34:46 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Any comments?  Do we want to accept the changes?
16:34:54 <SimonSapin> sounds good
16:34:59 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:36:10 <florian> given my understanding, I am fine with it.
16:36:24 <fantasai> next issue -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0508.html
16:36:28 <SteveZ> From last week's mintues: fantasai: Proposal is to remove "default" and change the name of              "initial-or-inherit" to "unset"
16:36:57 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:37:07 <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Accept the default/unset changes.
16:37:19 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Next issue is somewhat tricky.
16:37:27 <TabAtkins> fantasai: The problem with 'all' is that it kills *everything*.
16:37:41 <TabAtkins> fantasai: We were like, are there certain rules we really dont' want people to reset without having explicitly decided to do so?
16:37:53 <TabAtkins> fantasai: We went through Firefox's UA stylesheet.
16:37:57 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Resetting most things are fine.
16:38:19 <TabAtkins> fantasai: But there are two properties which we realized nobody should be touching unless they're explicitly going against our recommendation not to touch it, for some reason.
16:38:25 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Those two are 'direction' and 'unicode-bidi'.
16:38:38 <ChrisL> almost-all ?
16:38:42 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Right now, 'all' will reset those.
16:39:02 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Which might be okay on an LTR page, but on RTL it'll break things by resetting explicit values.
16:39:35 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Are 'direction' and 'unicode-bidi' tehe only properties we'll do this with?  Should those not have been proeprties at all?
16:39:46 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes, those two should not have ever been CSS properties.
16:40:02 <TabAtkins> fantasai: They were added because people thought that was the right way to handle non-HTML bidi requirements.
16:40:15 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Personally I think it would have been smarter to add an xml:dir attribute, but we have 'direction' now.
16:40:26 <TabAtkins> fantasai: CSS3 says "dont' use these properties, use the markup instead".
16:40:38 <TabAtkins> fantasai: It's *possible* we might add new things, but unlikely.
16:40:59 <TabAtkins> antonp: I don't like a property called 'all' that's not actually all.
16:41:09 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah, that's why I'm less certain we should tie it to language.
16:41:46 <TabAtkins> antonp: The reason the bidi ones are being excluded is because they shouldn't have been properties in the first place, but I don't think that set should grow.
16:42:10 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: One thing you said is that direction isn't really part of styling, but rather a content quality.
16:42:20 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-cascade/#all-shorthand
16:42:21 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: Perhaps that should be indicated as tdhe reason for th eexlucsion in the spec.
16:42:35 <TabAtkins> fantasai: That's already in the spec. ^_^
16:42:49 <TabAtkins> zakim, lolwut
16:42:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'lolwut', TabAtkins
16:43:05 <TabAtkins> Bert: Aren't the custom properties also an exception to the 'all' rule?
16:43:12 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes, because they're not CSS properties.
16:43:37 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yeah, Variables already has an issue for this.
16:44:36 <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: David Baron just sent an email to the list with roughly the same consensus (not liking exceptions, but maybe being okay with the two properties).
16:45:00 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I'm okay with just limiting it to the two properties, and not doing [lang] stuff.
16:45:08 <TabAtkins> [jokey discussion about changing it to 'most']
16:45:49 <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: 'all' does not reset 'direction' or 'unicode-bidi' (or custom properties)
16:46:39 <BradK> Can I set 'all:red' and have it affect everything that takes a color as a value?
16:46:51 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0518.html
16:47:04 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:47:11 <TabAtkins> Topic: Flexbox LC
16:47:12 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-cr-2012
16:47:23 <TabAtkins> fantasai: There's the DoC, and there's a handful of open issues we're still trying to resolve.
16:47:34 <SimonSapin> BradK: not per the current spec
16:47:34 <TabAtkins> fantasai: People who ware interested in flexbox should probably hang out in the list and help us out.
16:47:48 <SimonSapin> s/BradK:/BradK,/
16:47:50 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Issue #3 - why doesn't height:100% on the child of a stretched flex item take effect?
16:48:00 <TabAtkins> fantasai: We thought there wasn't a good reason that it doesn't work.
16:48:34 <BradK> SimonSapin: Maybe it should. Do you know if this has been discussed on the list?
16:48:46 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Relatedly, I think MS will do %ages even if the flexbox isn't a definite size - one pass treating the %ages as auto, resolve the size of the flexbox, then do another layout pass with that as the definite size.
16:49:08 <SimonSapin> BradK, I think it hasn’t been discussed, but I don’t like it :)
16:49:17 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Issue 19 is about the implied minimum size of flex items. We resolved to revert it to zero, but there's a thread about that maybe not being a good idea.  There's an ongoing discussion.
16:49:49 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Finally, if you have two flexbox children that are table-cell, shoudl they be converted directly to block (and be independent flex items), or first wrapped in an anonymous table and then made into a flex item.
16:50:01 <TabAtkins> fantasai: There is differening impl behavior between FF and webkit/blink, at least.
16:50:08 <BradK> SimonSapin: Yeah, there's probably no real value in doing that. Never mind.
16:50:23 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Last is about the static position of flex and grid items.  We can probably leave that open during the LC, as it doesn't necessarily imply a change to Flexbox.
16:50:31 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
16:50:42 <TabAtkins> fantasai: That's an overview of the issues, so it would be good to get the opinions of interested people.
16:50:52 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: Can you provide pro/cons for the table-cell case?
16:51:10 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Right now, if you ever have two adjacent table-cells, we'll wrap them in a table.
16:51:17 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Flexbox says the same thing at the moment.
16:51:34 <TabAtkins> fantasai: If you have a few table-cells, and you're expecting the anonymous box behavior, that's what you want.
16:52:12 <TabAtkins> fantasai: On the other hand, you might want to be using table layout as a fallback for flexbox, in which case you want the cells to be independent.
16:52:47 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Another arg in favor of anon-box behavior is that for other box model things, like run-in and ruby
16:52:56 <fantasai> TabAtkins: We will want to do box-fixup first
16:53:30 <fantasai> fantasai: I totally agree with TabAtkins on run-in and ruby and other things
16:53:42 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I've relied on it in the past. :/
16:53:52 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: Is there a way of getting the non-fixup behavior by some other means?
16:54:04 <fantasai> fantasai: Just for tables, seems like we have good use case for recomputing 'display' instead, and since anon table box generation is somewhat complicated, less likely to be used.
16:54:40 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: You can set display:table instead, if you want.
16:54:48 <TabAtkins> Rossen: There's also an expectation of what the fixup is going to be.
16:54:54 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:55:17 <TabAtkins> Rossen: In flow layout, if you have two adjacent table-cells, you'll get a single wrapper around them.
16:55:46 <TabAtkins> Rossen: I think we should make a deliberate decision over whether to have same behavior in both layout systems or not.
16:56:47 <TabAtkins> Rossen: I'm not saying there's a ton of interop in block layout, but at least in these simple cases, there's interop.
16:57:16 <Zakim> -smfr
16:57:17 <smfr> smfr has left #css
16:57:48 <TabAtkins> [discusses how to detect the beahvior, so we know IE's treatment]
16:58:01 <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22display%3A%20flex%3B%20flex-flow%3A%20column%22%3E%0Atest%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22display%3A%20table-cell%22%3EA%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22display%3A%20table-cell%22%3EB%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0Atest%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E
16:59:10 <TabAtkins> fantasai: In the above, if A and B are nexxt to each other, you do table fixup (they're in a single table). If they're vertical, you don't do fixup (they're separate flex items).
16:59:18 <TabAtkins> Rossen: IE does the fixup.
16:59:21 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Mozilla too.
16:59:26 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Chrome does not.
16:59:48 <TabAtkins> fantasai: So unless anyone else has comments, maybe we just stay with what we have, and do the fixup?
17:00:00 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: Can we delay the decision a week?
17:00:02 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Sure.
17:00:39 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
17:00:48 <TabAtkins> fantasai: One more thing for next week - I'd like to ahve Steve and Alan and Jdaggett to help solve the last three issues with CSS3 Text.  These are the last holding up LC.
17:01:06 <TabAtkins> SteveZ: Do you have suggested text for the letter-spacing justification?
17:01:34 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:01:40 <Zakim> -MaRakow
17:01:41 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:01:41 <Zakim> -glazou
17:01:42 <Zakim> -briankardell
17:01:42 <Zakim> -rhauck
17:01:42 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:01:44 <Zakim> -sgalineau
17:01:44 <Zakim> -dael
17:01:44 <Zakim> -antonp
17:01:45 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:01:45 <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk
17:01:46 <Zakim> -Lea
17:01:49 <Zakim> -Bert
17:01:52 <Zakim> -plinss
17:01:52 <Zakim> -Plh
17:01:52 <Zakim> -c_palmer
17:01:52 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:01:53 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:01:58 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:02:00 <Zakim> -BradK
17:02:07 <BradK> BradK has left #css
17:02:07 <dbaron> TabAtkins, btw, did you see my email about -webkit-font-smoothing/osx-font-smoothing/othername?  I'd be interested in hearing if any blink developers have an opinion.
17:02:45 <Zakim> -??P21
17:04:37 <Zakim> -glenn
17:04:38 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:04:38 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.520.280.aaaa, glazou, briankardell, +1.206.675.aabb, sgalineau, plinss, dael, florian, BradK, Plh, +93192aacc, antonp, SimonSapin, Lea, fantasai, JohnJansen,
17:04:38 <Zakim> ... Bert, +1.415.615.aadd, rhauck, [IPcaller], shezbaig_wk, smfr, krit, dbaron, SteveZ, ChrisL, glenn, [Microsoft], MaRakow, +1.832.797.aaee, Rossen, TabAtkins, c_palmer, nvdbleek
17:05:04 <TabAtkins> dbaron: Yes, I have, but I haven't been into work since then.  ^_^  I'll respond tomorrow, if that's okay.
17:06:28 <dbaron> TabAtkins, ok, then I'll postpone making a final decision from today to tomorrow
17:07:02 <dbaron> TabAtkins, thanks
17:27:44 <dbaron> TabAtkins, btw, Zakim responds to anything with "hand" at the end as raising a hand for the queue
17:51:51 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
17:54:05 <tobie> tobie has joined #css
17:56:03 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
18:28:06 <glenn> glenn has joined #css
19:00:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #css
19:35:16 <glenn> glenn has joined #css
19:44:10 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
19:48:08 <dbaron> Would it help to have a separate list (public-css-publications) for all publication-related traffic for the working group?  That is, all webreq threads, all threads on scheduling a director's decision, etc.?
19:48:52 <fantasai> Help with what?
19:49:20 <dbaron> Keeping track of what has and hasn't happened?
19:49:23 <fantasai> I think the only thing that would help with would be reducing traffic on w3c-css-wg
19:49:33 <fantasai> Ah
19:49:39 <fantasai> Currently I just CC w3c-css-wg
19:49:45 <dbaron> yes, but not everybody does
19:49:50 <dbaron> so some webreq threads don't have w3c-css-wg on them
19:50:20 <fantasai> in that case, I'm in favor of either always CCing it or adding a new ML if ppl think that would be annoying
19:50:55 <fantasai> w3c-css-wg is currently topic'd to include administrivia, so I'm ok with that
19:57:50 <plh> I didn't read the publish instructions before dealing with the docs. oops.
19:58:39 <plh> the latest version snafu on css variables has been fixed btw
20:02:55 <fantasai> plh: Again, not your fault.
20:02:58 <fantasai> plh: That's Tab's fault.
20:03:17 <fantasai> plh: He's the editor, he's supposed to deal with announcements.
20:03:37 <fantasai> on the topic of which, TabAtkins you are late with the Counter Styles LC announcement. Get going.
20:03:55 <fantasai> >:[
20:04:16 <fantasai> Don't forget to CC i18n/a11y/htmlwg/whatwg
20:04:55 <dbaron> I think Bert already sent LC announcements to the other WGs, just not www-style?
20:05:27 <fantasai> I'd expect him to email chairs@, unsure if he hit the public mailing lists
20:05:32 <fantasai> www-international, etc.
20:05:47 <fantasai> nope
20:05:48 <fantasai> didn't
20:05:52 <dbaron> I also don't think we should impose a workflow with so many interruptions on editors
20:06:10 <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/mid/201307161557.23119.bert@w3.org
20:06:19 <fantasai> Well, then propose a better one
20:06:46 <dbaron> send the announcements at the same time as the publication request
20:06:58 <dbaron> and link to a permanent copy of the TR draft hosted on dev.w3.org
20:07:02 <fantasai> It's hard to link to a publication that doesn't exist yet?
20:07:07 <dbaron> and then ignore when it's actually published on TR, and don't use that link
20:07:22 <fantasai> heh
20:07:28 <dbaron> allows it to be all done at once
20:07:34 <fantasai> plh, what do you think of that? We ignore /TR completely
20:07:35 <dbaron> which makes the later steps much less likely to be dropped on the floor
20:07:36 <fantasai> :)
20:12:37 <plh> I agree with David that the current way is awkward
20:13:12 <plh> if I'm going to deal with the webmaster directly, I'd rather send the annoucements directly rather having to ping the editor for that
20:13:51 <plh> and a lot of those announcements are similar and could be done with templates
20:13:51 <tobie> tobie has joined #css
20:14:07 <dbaron> there's even a template on the wiki
20:14:23 <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/publish
20:17:36 <plh> fantasai, btw, on a separate topic, I'll use some of my free time at the end of august to link the editors draft in /TR
20:17:36 <fantasai> with examples!
20:17:50 <fantasai> plh: ??
20:18:28 <plh> we'll start listing the editors' dratf from /TR
20:18:35 <plh> not the WDs
20:18:44 <plh> not jsut the WDs
20:19:16 <fantasai> from the index page, you mean?
20:19:20 <plh> yes
20:19:22 <fantasai> That's nice to have.
20:19:29 <fantasai> I would rather /TR actually *host* the editor's drafts.
20:19:38 <plh> and probably have /TR/editors
20:19:39 <fantasai> or something halfway between an editor's draft and a WD
20:20:43 <plh> at the moment, we'll just take whatever is linked from the WD
20:21:09 <fantasai> I think it's great to have /TR's index page link the editor's drafts
20:21:25 <fantasai> but I think it's a travesty that the drafts people refer to are not hosted on /TR
20:21:31 <fantasai> but in random repositories all over the place
20:21:32 <fantasai> it's very silly
20:21:42 <hober> yeah
20:21:47 <fantasai> *silly*
20:21:54 <hober> or whatever, have a /DR for "draft reports"
20:22:11 <hober> but having a heterogeneous mixture of "dev.w3.org","dvcs.w3.org",etc. links is nuts
20:22:18 <fantasai> hear, hear!
20:22:24 <fantasai> (read, read?)
20:22:31 <plh> I thought we were not supposed to read uris... :)
20:23:16 <fantasai> that, good sir, is an idealistic fantasy
20:23:26 <fantasai> Even Googlebot reads URIs
20:24:20 <fantasai> No, really, /TR/css-counter-styles/ should just point at whatever the CSSWG considers to be the thing people should be looking at
20:24:22 <hober> besides we call them URLs these days. :)
20:24:59 <fantasai> unless we want to deprecate /TR as an official spec repository and turn it into a mere archive of outdated drafts
20:25:15 <fantasai> (which is, frankly, what it is functioning as these days; there's just no coherent replacement yet)
20:26:54 <fantasai> Proposed solution's on spec-prod http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2013JulSep/0003.html
20:27:08 <fantasai> fwiw
20:27:23 <fantasai> The only people who object are the ones who think /TR is functional right now
20:27:40 <plh> yes, except that I don't have the resources th do such thing before at least 2014
20:27:58 <fantasai> Hey, if we're moving in that direction, it's an improvement :)
20:28:12 <glenn> glenn has joined #css
20:28:13 <plh> I'm trying to at least
20:28:15 <fantasai> :)
20:29:10 <fantasai> It's possible we could have a centralized server to host the "live" drafts elsewhere, and use magic serve incantations to make it look like they're hosted on www.w3.org. I think plinss did something like that with the CSS drafts...
20:29:22 <lmclister> lmclister has joined #css
20:29:34 <fantasai> In which case, I'm sure some of the grumpy people here with IT skills can help set up that server
20:30:18 <plh> technically, that would be possible with the current www.w3.org
20:31:03 <fantasai> alright then, suppose you get approval for us to make this happen, and we find the people to set up that central server?
20:31:16 <fantasai> And eventually W3C IT can take it over
20:31:31 <fantasai> Does that seem reasonable?
20:31:38 <plh> I'm saying I don't think we need the central server. it could be done with the existing www.w3.org.
20:32:07 <fantasai> I think checking everything into W3C CVS might be miserable :)
20:32:16 <plh> let me work on the new webmaster and get him on board in the next 2 months
20:32:38 <plh> fantasai, I think a simple .htaccess would do the trick
20:32:50 <fantasai> ok
20:35:14 <fantasai> I assume you mean some kind of redirect into a non-CVS-controlled directory?
20:35:48 <fantasai> in which case, the hard part would probably be configuring things so editors can push to it...
20:37:29 <fantasai> I think that would actually work... using SVN. You'd check in the .svn directory into your spec repository, whatever it is (hg, git, etc)
20:37:45 <fantasai> assuming it doesn't keep around user data in there
20:38:07 <fantasai> and then anyone can issue the svn command to commit to www.w3.org
20:38:14 <fantasai> if they have the right access
20:38:26 <fantasai> you'd kindof be versioning the same files in two systems at once
20:38:34 <plh> I'm worried into forcing the editors into one versioning system nowadays
20:38:45 <plh> we have drafts on dev, dvcs, github
20:38:52 <fantasai> yeah
20:39:14 <fantasai> in this case, you could use whatever you wanted, but when you pushed to /TR you'd have to use SVN
20:39:24 <fantasai> if anyone actually could use anything they wanted without using SVN
20:39:29 <fantasai> probably it's a bit more complicated
20:39:38 <fantasai> because the directory structures won't all match
20:39:42 <fantasai> but maybe doable anyway
20:39:47 <fantasai> with a lot of scripts
20:41:02 <fantasai> I guess if you just set up a cron job with a pull request for each spec repo you want to host, that'd work
20:42:12 <florian> florian has joined #css
20:43:16 <fantasai> I'd want to be able to tag revisions to show, or tag revisions to hide, in that case.
20:43:27 <fantasai> Sometimes Tab and I check in half-finished work :)
21:14:45 <florian> florian has joined #css
21:24:13 <jdaggett> jdaggett has joined #css
23:43:34 <lmcliste_> lmcliste_ has joined #css
23:49:44 <fantasai> Bert: Sent in the pub requests for css-cascade and css-values!
23:49:48 <fantasai> Bert: Should be in your inbox.
23:50:03 <fantasai> Bert: I prepped the drafts for tomorrow, but feel free to adjust as necessary...
23:53:15 <SimonSapin> fantasai: by "/TR", plh often means the http://www.w3.org/TR/ index page itself, while we often mean drafts published at http://www.w3.org/TR/something
23:54:34 <fantasai> yeah
23:54:42 <fantasai> I never look at /TR, really
23:54:50 <fantasai> the index page, I mean :)
23:55:01 <SimonSapin> neither do I
23:55:12 <fantasai> I have most shortnames memorized, and the ones I don't, I google
23:55:29 <SimonSapin> but I think there was some misunderstandings when talking about /TR since the breakout session at TPAC Lyon
23:55:50 <SimonSapin> (browser history helps a lot as well, at least for me.)
23:56:44 <fantasai> hmm
23:57:04 <fantasai> I think most people are clear that they care about the things under /TR/
23:57:25 <fantasai> because hardly anyone thinks about /TR/ the index page
23:57:31 <fantasai> but I guess to W3C Staff it's ambiguous
23:58:21 <SimonSapin> yeah, anyone except plh it seems