IRC log of wai-wcag on 2013-07-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:01 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:59:01 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:59:07 [Joshue]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:07 [Zakim]
sorry, Joshue, I don't know what conference this is
14:59:08 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, David, korn, AWK_, Joshue, MichaelC, trackbot
14:59:21 [Joshue]
zakim, this is WCAG
14:59:21 [Zakim]
ok, Joshue; that matches WAI_WCAG()11:00AM
14:59:28 [Joshue]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Adobe], David_MacDonald, [IPcaller], Peter_Korn
14:59:37 [Joshue]
zakim, [IPCaller] is Joshue
14:59:37 [Zakim]
+Joshue; got it
14:59:38 [AWK_]
meeting: WCAG
14:59:51 [AWK_]
Chair: Andrew Kirkpatrick
15:00:11 [AWK_]
scribe: joshue
15:00:15 [Zakim]
15:00:32 [Zakim]
15:00:34 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:00:34 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:00:58 [Joshue]
agenda + WCAG review of Techniques Task Force: ARIA techniques for 21st June
15:00:58 [Joshue]
15:00:59 [AWK_]
regrets: Kerstin Probiesch
15:01:07 [Joshue]
agenda + Continuing Institutional Memory Collection for SC 1.1.1:
15:01:07 [Joshue]
15:02:42 [AWK_]
Zakim, save agenda
15:02:49 [Zakim]
ok, AWK_, the agenda has been written to
15:03:32 [Joshue]
AWK: Lets give folks a min.
15:03:53 [MichaelC]
scribe: Joshue
15:04:23 [MichaelC]
15:04:34 [MichaelC]
regrets: Kerstin_Probiesch
15:04:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MichaelC
15:05:21 [Joshue]
AWK: Ok, lets take up item 1
15:05:26 [Joshue]
zakim, take up item 1
15:05:26 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "WCAG review of Techniques Task Force: ARIA techniques for 21st June" taken up [from Joshue]
15:05:45 [Joshue]
AWK: Theres the link
15:06:24 [Joshue]
AWK: Last week we did one, the first. I'd like to firstly look at the unanimous ones 5,6, 7.
15:06:35 [Joshue]
AWK: Any objection to taking them up as proposed?
15:06:44 [Loretta]
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15:06:57 [Joshue]
AWK: Hearing none, alright.
15:07:41 [Joshue]
15:08:01 [Joshue]
15:08:08 [Joshue]
AWK: Lets discuss 7
15:08:22 [Joshue]
AWK: Lets take up number 2.
15:08:31 [Joshue]
15:09:02 [Joshue]
AWK: We have some questions, Lorettas not on the call. Comment number 3 and then comments on programmatic association?
15:09:16 [Joshue]
AWK: Last week did we decide that programmatic association was ok?
15:09:31 [Joshue]
PK: I thought we liked the phrase but didn't want to suggest it was a quote etc.
15:09:47 [Joshue]
PK: My fave was to make it a proper quote and use the term.
15:09:53 [Joshue]
DMacD: Please explain?
15:10:40 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make log world
15:10:41 [Zakim]
15:10:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MichaelC
15:10:57 [Joshue]
PK: We could say this is programmatic association.. but not quote them out.. we may say this 'programmatic association of x with y' may mean programmatic determination so by doing this you are achieving the same objective.
15:11:29 [jamesn]
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15:11:37 [Joshue]
<discussion on programmatic determination and association>
15:11:47 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:11:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jamesn
15:12:12 [Joshue]
AWK: It looks like on last week, we just took out the quote..
15:12:17 [Joshue]
AWK: So thats it.
15:12:38 [Joshue]
PK: That fine too.. but its just not, to quote Gregg, a teachable moment..
15:12:41 [Joshue]
15:13:02 [Loretta]
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15:13:08 [Joshue]
AWK: <gets James up to speed>
15:13:33 [Zakim]
15:14:02 [Joshue]
AWK: So in keep with what we did last week, we should probably remove the 'quoted' sentence.
15:14:51 [Joshue]
<another small change discussed on the basis of last weeks decisions.>
15:15:27 [Joshue]
AWK: Is there text on the page?
15:15:53 [Joshue]
<discussion on aria-labelledby referencing a text string.>
15:16:15 [AWK]
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15:16:34 [Joshue]
AWK: Thats the sentence Peter..
15:17:01 [Joshue]
JN: What about to provide a text label on an option such as a button?
15:17:04 [Joshue]
AWK: Sure
15:17:12 [Joshue]
AWK: What do others think?
15:17:25 [Joshue]
DMacD: I'm not sure we're gaining much by taking it out.
15:17:49 [Joshue]
JN: I don't like this, its an accessible name not an accessible description.
15:17:59 [Joshue]
DMacD: Agrees
15:18:07 [Joshue]
JN: What would we call this?
15:18:12 [Joshue]
DMacD: A label.
15:18:16 [Kathy]
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15:18:24 [Joshue]
AWK: Resolving the first sentence will make the second easier.
15:18:27 [AWK]
How about: The purpose of this technique is to provide a label for objects that can be read by assistive technology.
15:18:39 [Zakim]
+ +1.978.443.aaaa
15:18:39 [Joshue]
JN: So it's purpose is to provide a label for AT..
15:18:49 [Kathy]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:18:49 [Zakim]
+Kathy; got it
15:18:58 [Joshue]
<discussion on verbiage>
15:19:29 [AWK]
second sentence: The aria-label attribute provides the text label for an object, such as a button.
15:19:35 [Joshue]
JN: Updates the wiki with text.
15:20:08 [Joshue]
AWK: It's a quibble, I would say the label is provided 'for' the object..
15:20:16 [Joshue]
JN: Ok sure.
15:20:19 [Joshue]
JN: Sounds fine.
15:20:40 [Joshue]
AWK: Can everyone see the wiki?
15:20:54 [Joshue]
KW: I'm sorry, what are you guys talking about?
15:20:58 [Joshue]
KW: Thanks
15:21:52 [Joshue]
DMacD: Are the first couple of sentences redundant? Repetative?
15:22:01 [Joshue]
AWK: Right
15:22:21 [Joshue]
KW: In example 1, the ARIA label we should make sure that we don't have the word navigation there.
15:22:48 [Joshue]
AWK: <Gives update>
15:23:12 [Joshue]
DMacD: <more word smithery>
15:23:26 [Joshue]
KW: <more word smithery>
15:23:35 [Joshue]
DMacD: Ok
15:23:40 [Joshue]
JN: Is there a gain?
15:23:57 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
15:23:57 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
15:23:58 [Joshue]
15:24:22 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
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Joshue should now be muted
15:24:29 [Joshue]
JOC: I agree with Kathy.
15:24:37 [Joshue]
AWK: Not there yet
15:24:48 [Joshue]
KW: Add the word main.
15:25:03 [Joshue]
DMacD: I'm concerned about the use of main, as its a role.
15:25:06 [Joshue]
KW: Primary?
15:25:17 [Joshue]
JOC: I agree with DMacD
15:25:40 [Joshue]
DMacD: We need to get this right. I'll test.
15:25:53 [Joshue]
JN: It would be better if we were more specific.
15:26:13 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
15:26:13 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
15:26:16 [Joshue]
15:27:22 [Joshue]
ack me
15:27:37 [Joshue]
JOC: These are generic examples for correct use of aria-label IMO
15:27:45 [Joshue]
s/generic/too generic
15:28:01 [Joshue]
DMacD: Yes, maybe it is better to have it less generic.
15:28:44 [Joshue]
JOC: A more specifi example would be better.
15:29:00 [Joshue]
15:29:24 [Joshue]
KW: I'd also change the IDs, left nav, right nav.. etc
15:29:31 [Joshue]
AWK: Or give them generic names..
15:29:35 [Loretta]
Who is voluntering to improve the example?
15:29:47 [Joshue]
JN: Lets give it a generic example..
15:29:56 [Joshue]
<discussion on example>
15:30:37 [Joshue]
JN: How about removing the IDs?
15:30:54 [Joshue]
AWK: I was talking about the ARIA labelled one..
15:30:59 [Joshue]
JN: We don't want main..
15:31:18 [Joshue]
AWK: Yes
15:31:36 [Joshue]
<discussion of JAW 13 and 14 and role support>
15:31:45 [Joshue]
AWK: So James the IDs aren't necessary?
15:31:53 [Joshue]
JN: Yes, so I'd chop them.
15:32:30 [Joshue]
KW: <Discussion on primary nav etc>
15:32:43 [Joshue]
JN: Putting in links makes this so much longer..
15:33:55 [Zakim]
15:34:44 [Ryladog]
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15:35:03 [Joshue]
<discussion on AT support for aria-label etc>
15:35:18 [David]
15:35:24 [Joshue]
DMacD: I like this.
15:35:35 [Joshue]
AWK: Are we happy? Is anyone unhappy with this?
15:35:52 [Joshue]
AWK: Ok, we're done with example 1.
15:36:03 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:36:03 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:36:10 [Joshue]
AWK: Loretta did have a comment
15:36:25 [Joshue]
JN: I've adressed that
15:36:43 [Joshue]
KW: Should we say portlet?
15:36:51 [Joshue]
JN: It is a term thats used?
15:37:21 [Joshue]
DMacD: The Math ML example works great.
15:38:05 [Joshue]
KW: If you have Math player installed you may get different results.
15:39:32 [Joshue]
<discussion on MathML>
15:40:30 [Joshue]
<and regions, roles, document, widget etc>
15:40:36 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:40:36 [Zakim]
Joshue was already muted, Joshue
15:41:09 [Joshue]
AWK: I have a question about the MathML role, and the use of quotes.
15:41:17 [Joshue]
JN: Does it matter?
15:41:34 [Joshue]
DMacD: You can in HTML5 use both.
15:41:41 [Joshue]
JN: Would look better if consistent.
15:41:51 [jamesn]
15:42:24 [Joshue]
AWK: Setting aside, if this is right for Maths, we may have to leave this open..
15:42:37 [Joshue]
KW: This doesn't mention the aria label at all.
15:43:14 [Joshue]
<discussion on use of images and Maths>
15:43:48 [Joshue]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:43:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Joshue
15:44:08 [Joshue]
<discussion on repair techniques>
15:44:52 [Joshue]
AWK: Can we resolve example 3?
15:45:08 [Joshue]
AWK: Is there an appropriate use of aria-label?
15:45:22 [Joshue]
JN: It seems be appropriate based on the ARIA spec.
15:45:27 [Joshue]
DMacD: Yes.
15:45:48 [Joshue]
KW: But if you had Math player what would happen?
15:45:58 [Joshue]
DMacD: I can test this.
15:46:07 [Joshue]
JN: They need to start to cope with this.
15:46:23 [Joshue]
AWK: David is testing..
15:46:37 [Joshue]
JN: Is using times rather than x..
15:46:51 [Joshue]
KW: It should be equivalent to what MathMl would do..
15:47:02 [Joshue]
15:47:34 [Joshue]
JN: Each player could do this in a different way.
15:47:40 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
15:47:40 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
15:48:04 [Joshue]
+q to agree that we shouldn't just focus on how one UA parses an example.
15:48:21 [Joshue]
BB: It comes up in discussion a lot..
15:48:36 [Joshue]
15:48:42 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:48:42 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:49:25 [Joshue]
<discussion on MathML support and examples>
15:50:49 [Joshue]
AWK: Loretta has a question about the procedure
15:51:39 [Joshue]
JN: Is it appropriate to use aria-label or a label on the page instead.
15:52:13 [Joshue]
LGR: We fail someone for aria-label but they could have used some thing else?
15:52:20 [Zakim]
15:52:28 [Joshue]
<discussion on use of aria-label its use etc>
15:52:30 [korn]
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15:53:07 [Joshue]
+q there is still confusion about when to use aria-label, vs labelledby etc
15:53:15 [Joshue]
+q to say there is still confusion about when to use aria-label, vs labelledby etc
15:53:20 [Joshue]
15:53:40 [Joshue]
<discussion on use of aria-label>
15:53:45 [Joshue]
zakim unmute me
15:53:56 [Joshue]
15:54:46 [Joshue]
LGR: We don't want to fail people.
15:54:51 [Joshue]
JOC: Agreed.
15:55:04 [Joshue]
AWK: Is there anything that we do want to fail use of aria-label on?
15:55:12 [Joshue]
DMacD: Its quite agressive.
15:55:23 [Joshue]
JN: Thats what it's supposed to do.
15:55:39 [Joshue]
AWK: Are there cases?
15:56:11 [Joshue]
+q to say we need to have a discussion about how and where incorrect use of ARIA would result in failures.
15:56:30 [Joshue]
ack me
15:56:31 [Zakim]
Joshue, you wanted to say we need to have a discussion about how and where incorrect use of ARIA would result in failures.
15:57:53 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:57:53 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:58:32 [Joshue]
JOC: Developers aren't as familiar as the experts here on how ARIA impacts on the user experience, we need to be careful of the message we give.
15:58:46 [Joshue]
<discussion on ARIA semantics trumping etc>
15:59:19 [jamesn]
15:59:40 [Joshue]
AWK: I'm hearing we should get rid of procedure, item number 2.. ask people to review the hierarchy in the ARIA spec so they are aware of the order that ARIA label content would be read.
15:59:43 [Joshue]
JOC: +1
15:59:44 [Ryladog]
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15:59:51 [Joshue]
AWK: Is that easy
16:00:02 [Joshue]
LGR: <agreees>
16:00:10 [Joshue]
16:00:10 [Ryladog]
16:00:32 [Joshue]
KW: I can test it.
16:00:36 [Joshue]
AWK: Thats great.
16:01:04 [Joshue]
LGR: The first step isn't something that can be true..
16:01:05 [marcjohlic]
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16:01:06 [Joshue]
16:01:30 [Zakim]
16:01:38 [Joshue]
AWK: Last week we discussed the title..
16:02:08 [Joshue]
JN: It seems similar to me..
16:02:40 [David]
16:02:54 [David]
f the label text is visible on screen, authors SHOULD use aria-labelledby and SHOULD NOT use aria-label.
16:03:12 [David]
16:03:38 [David]
s/f /if
16:04:42 [Joshue]
AWK: What we want is h44?
16:04:45 [AWK]
16:04:51 [Joshue]
JN: Sounds reasonable to be
16:04:59 [AWK]
H44: Using label elements to associate text labels with form controls
16:05:35 [Joshue]
<discussion of SR support>
16:05:54 [Joshue]
AWK: We should point to official documented heirarchy
16:06:05 [Joshue]
JN: Yes, but it's complex
16:06:32 [Joshue]
JN: Many won't understand and shouldn't need to read it..
16:06:39 [Joshue]
DMacD: Agreed.
16:07:04 [Joshue]
JN: Devs making complex widgets should read the spec.
16:07:12 [Joshue]
DMacD: Agreed.
16:07:28 [Joshue]
JN: Is there anything in the application developers guide on this? Michael?
16:07:39 [Joshue]
MC: It could be the same thing..
16:08:16 [AWK]
Authors should be aware that aria-label may be disregarded by assistive technologies in situations where aria-labelledby is used for the same object. For more information on the naming hierarchy please consult the ARIA specification (
16:08:30 [Joshue]
JOC: What about ARIA in HTML5 doc?
16:09:31 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
16:09:31 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
16:10:11 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
16:10:11 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
16:10:20 [Joshue]
JN: Maybe we could ask Steve to add something.
16:10:28 [Joshue]
JOC: Yes, good idea.
16:10:48 [Joshue]
JN: There are subtleties.
16:11:10 [Joshue]
AWK: Is my text ok?
16:11:13 [Joshue]
JN: I've added it./
16:11:47 [Joshue]
DMacD: It's a powerful thing.
16:12:01 [Joshue]
LGR: But the label has to be the complete description.
16:12:12 [Joshue]
JOC: +1 to Lorettas suggestion.
16:12:26 [Joshue]
JN: Not strictly true.
16:12:37 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
16:12:37 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
16:13:01 [Loretta]
Is aria-labelledby the only attribute that will override aria-label?
16:13:32 [Joshue]
JN: You can have aria-label and aria-labelledby defined on the same element and can refer to one label as well as itself.. there are cases where this is needed.
16:13:45 [Joshue]
JN: So there are more advanced cases.
16:13:47 [Joshue]
JN: So there are more advanced cases.
16:13:53 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
16:13:53 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
16:14:01 [AWK]
Scribe: David
16:17:46 [Zakim]
16:18:22 [AWK]
Authors should be aware that aria-label may be disregarded by assistive technologies in situations where aria-labelledby is used for the same object, and in general aria-label text is voiced instead of other label text, not in addition to it.
16:18:40 [David]
CW: developers think about aria label like the title attribute to add a bit more infomation or context
16:18:46 [David]
DM: Yes
16:19:01 [jamesn]
Authors should be aware that use of aria-label will override any native naming such as alt on images or label associated with a form field using the for attribute
16:19:27 [David]
LGR: this warning could be described in the description section
16:20:32 [David]
Resolution: accepted as amended aria label
16:22:28 [David]
Topic: Using aria-label for link purpose
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16:28:57 [Ryladog]
16:33:59 [AWK]
#s 4,7,8 remain on this survey.
16:34:29 [Zakim]
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16:34:30 [Zakim]
16:34:30 [Zakim]
16:34:32 [Zakim]
16:34:32 [Zakim]
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16:34:33 [Zakim]
16:34:34 [Zakim]
16:34:35 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended
16:34:35 [Zakim]
Attendees were David_MacDonald, Peter_Korn, Joshue, Michael_Cooper, Bruce_Bailey, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, James_Nurthen, hhalpin, +1.978.443.aaaa, Kathy, Ryladog, Marc_Johlic
16:37:01 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:37:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MichaelC
16:37:51 [MichaelC]
trackbot, end meeting
16:37:51 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:37:51 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:37:59 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:37:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:38:00 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:38:00 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items