IRC log of html-a11y on 2013-07-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:02:01 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:02:01 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/18-html-a11y-irc
15:02:03 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
15:02:03 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:02:05 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 2119
15:02:05 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 62 minutes ago
15:02:06 [trackbot]: Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:02:06 [trackbot]: Date: 18 July 2013
15:02:48 [MarkS]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:48 [Zakim]: WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has not yet started, MarkS
15:02:50 [Zakim]: On IRC I see RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, paulc, janina, David, SuzanneT, SteveF, davidb, MarkS, chaals, Joshue, hober, MichaelC, trackbot
15:02:58 [janina]: zakim, who's here?
15:02:59 [Zakim]: WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has not yet started, janina
15:03:00 [Zakim]: On IRC I see RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, paulc, janina, David, SuzanneT, SteveF, davidb, MarkS, chaals, Joshue, hober, MichaelC, trackbot
15:03:11 [MarkS]: zakim, this is 2119
15:03:11 [Zakim]: ok, MarkS; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM
15:03:17 [MarkS]: zakim, who is on the phone
15:03:17 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is on the phone', MarkS
15:03:24 [MarkS]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:24 [Zakim]: On the phone I see David_MacDonald, Mark_Sadecki, ??P5, +1.201.390.aaaa, [Microsoft], Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:03:28 [Zakim]: +John_Foliot
15:03:43 [janina]: zakim, ??P5 is me
15:03:43 [Zakim]: +janina; got it
15:05:02 [janina]: Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force
15:05:02 [janina]: Chair: Chaals
15:05:02 [janina]: agenda+ procedures CfC
15:05:02 [janina]: agenda+ longdesc in Last Call
15:05:02 [janina]: agenda+ HTML5 testing and interoperability
15:05:04 [janina]: agenda+ Canvas testing and interoperability
15:05:07 [janina]: agenda+ using alternative text in HTML
15:05:09 [janina]: agenda+ Sub-teams
15:05:12 [janina]: agenda+ Any Other Business
15:05:31 [janina]: zakim, who's on the phone?
15:05:31 [Zakim]: On the phone I see David_MacDonald, Mark_Sadecki, janina, +1.201.390.aaaa, [Microsoft], Rich_Schwerdtfeger, John_Foliot
15:05:33 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:06:00 [chaals]: zakim, [ip is me
15:06:00 [Zakim]: +chaals; got it
15:06:21 [MarkS]: zakim, aaaa is SuzanneT
15:06:21 [Zakim]: +SuzanneT; got it
15:06:27 [janina]: zakim, +1.201.390.aaaa is Suzanne
15:06:27 [Zakim]: sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named '+1.201.390.aaaa'
15:06:29 [Zakim]: + +1.619.846.aabb
15:06:37 [JF]: JF has joined #html-a11y
15:06:40 [chaals]: zakim, who is here
15:06:40 [Zakim]: chaals, you need to end that query with '?'
15:06:49 [chaals]: zakim, who is here?
15:06:49 [Zakim]: On the phone I see David_MacDonald, Mark_Sadecki, janina, SuzanneT, [Microsoft], Rich_Schwerdtfeger, John_Foliot, chaals, +1.619.846.aabb
15:06:51 [Zakim]: On IRC I see JF, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, paulc, janina, David, SuzanneT, SteveF, davidb, MarkS, chaals, Joshue, hober, MichaelC, trackbot
15:06:57 [JF]: scribe: JF
15:07:12 [chaals]: zakim, agenda?
15:07:12 [Zakim]: I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
15:07:15 [Zakim]: 1. procedures CfC [from janina]
15:07:15 [Zakim]: 2. longdesc in Last Call [from janina]
15:07:15 [Zakim]: 3. HTML5 testing and interoperability [from janina]
15:07:15 [Zakim]: 4. Canvas testing and interoperability [from janina]
15:07:15 [Zakim]: 5. using alternative text in HTML [from janina]
15:07:16 [Zakim]: 6. Sub-teams [from janina]
15:07:16 [Zakim]: 7. Any Other Business [from janina]
15:07:23 [chaals]: zakim take up next item
15:07:44 [JF]: Chaals: sent out a CfC on new statement of work and new decision procedures
15:07:57 [JF]: basic changes is to make things simpler
15:08:14 [JF]: deadline for comments is Monday of next week
15:08:46 [JF]: JS: small nit, usual term is calnedar day, and you say natural day
15:08:53 [JF]: Chaals: same thing
15:09:24 [JF]: Chaals: can change that. Please send an email
15:09:29 [chaals]: zakim, close this item
15:09:29 [Zakim]: I do not know what agendum had been taken up, chaals
15:09:35 [chaals]: zakim, close item 1
15:09:35 [Zakim]: agendum 1, procedures CfC, closed
15:09:36 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:09:36 [Zakim]: 2. longdesc in Last Call [from janina]
15:09:39 [chaals]: zakim, take up item 2
15:09:40 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "longdesc in Last Call" taken up [from janina]
15:10:02 [JF]: Chaals: spec is now in last call, there are only 60-something days left
15:10:07 [Zakim]: +Cynthia_Shelly
15:10:24 [JF]: Chaals: I anticipate a comment from Yandex, but will likely take another week or so - based on use-cases
15:10:46 [JF]: DM: Seems the response has been mixed to date
15:11:19 [JF]: JS: How do we want to proceed on the comments that have come in to date?
15:11:36 [JF]: Chaals: wait another week or so, and then do review of comments on the list
15:12:14 [chaals]: zakim, close item 2
15:12:14 [Zakim]: agendum 2, longdesc in Last Call, closed
15:12:15 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:12:15 [Zakim]: 3. HTML5 testing and interoperability [from janina]
15:12:24 [chaals]: zakim, take up agendum 3
15:12:24 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "HTML5 testing and interoperability" taken up [from janina]
15:12:39 [chaals]: zakim, who is here
15:12:39 [Zakim]: chaals, you need to end that query with '?'
15:12:46 [chaals]: zakim, who is here?
15:12:46 [Zakim]: On the phone I see David_MacDonald, Mark_Sadecki, janina, SuzanneT, [Microsoft], Rich_Schwerdtfeger, John_Foliot, chaals, +1.619.846.aabb, Cynthia_Shelly
15:12:50 [Zakim]: On IRC I see JF, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, paulc, janina, David, SuzanneT, SteveF, davidb, MarkS, chaals, Joshue, hober, MichaelC, trackbot
15:13:16 [plh]: plh has joined #html-a11y
15:13:22 [JF]: MS: thanks to Paul for the reply. disappointed to have the response rejected in whole
15:13:48 [JF]: MS: Not sure that more time is all that will be needed to meet the criteria
15:13:54 [JF]: JS: Lets not give up that easy
15:14:12 [JF]: may be true, or not, but having a problem in my mind on how to prove lack of interoperability
15:14:21 [chaals]: q+
15:14:33 [paulc]: q+
15:14:40 [chaals]: q- later
15:14:42 [JF]: JS: would it be more acceptable if we can state we cannot find a user-agent that supports
15:15:05 [chaals]: q-
15:15:08 [JF]: PC: Some kind of evidence, in particular to show, that X-scenario in a browser did not work
15:15:27 [JF]: PC: Not suggesting that the TF, as author, produce test-cases that fail
15:15:55 [JF]: PC: so simply testing 1 or more browsers, under x testing scenario, is better
15:15:59 [richardschwerdtfeger]: http://html5accessibility.com/
15:16:05 [chaals]: q+
15:16:06 [JF]: simply stating that "you beleive it" does not meet the bar
15:16:43 [richardschwerdtfeger]: q?
15:16:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]: q+
15:16:47 [chaals]: ack pa
15:16:50 [JF]: PC: take a simple document, use a user-agent, one or more, perhaps with an AT, then explain what you did and the results
15:17:22 [chaals]: ack me
15:17:24 [chaals]: ack ri
15:17:27 [JF]: Chaals: doesn't seem to be a high bar. Sounds like you are asking for a list of things that doesn't work, but has been tested
15:17:28 [richardschwerdtfeger]: http://html5accessibility.com/
15:17:58 [JF]: RS: the editor (Steve) has already done some testing and showing his results at the URL provided
15:18:13 [JF]: suspect this is based on a non-nomative passage
15:18:20 [JF]: testing has already been done for interop
15:18:37 [JF]: RS: If steve were to present his test cases, would that be adequate?
15:19:14 [JF]: PC: Yes, in fact what we are hoping is that if somebody came forward with a test case that shows a fail across all browsers, then we could look to add that to the larger test suite
15:20:05 [JF]: Chaals: How much time would it take to get steve's work ready for this?
15:20:21 [JF]: PC: Please remember we have started the CfC for Canvas testing
15:20:44 [JF]: if the TF comes back with a request for more time, that would likely be granted
15:21:04 [JF]: Chaals: would that be reasonable to do quickly
15:21:26 [JF]: MS: Steve has noted that html5accessibility requires some additional work to be updated
15:21:35 [David]: www.html5accessibility.com/tests/ARIA-tests/
15:21:52 [JF]: MS: In an ideal world, likely 30 days, but with holidays, etc. would likely need a bit more time
15:23:11 [JF]: PC: Suggest that request for an extension to Sept. 1st, and prior to that, present a status report. Expect the chairs to support. Set an agressive date, and then give rope as needed
15:23:21 [JF]: Chaals: sounds like a reasonable time-line
15:24:04 [JF]: PC: One additional request: if you make progress, do not batch it all at the end, rather provide rolling updates
15:25:34 [JF]: JS: Need to add a footnote. Agree with the process, but it really is different from the original marking of the process outlined in San Jose
15:25:38 [chaals]: zakim, close item 3
15:25:38 [Zakim]: agendum 3, HTML5 testing and interoperability, closed
15:25:39 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:25:39 [Zakim]: 4. Canvas testing and interoperability [from janina]
15:25:47 [chaals]: zakim, take up agendum 4
15:25:47 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Canvas testing and interoperability" taken up [from janina]
15:26:06 [paulc]: q+
15:26:13 [JF]: Chaals: Short answer is, the same thing applies. We need to provide evidence of what works and what doesn't
15:26:15 [chaals]: ack pa
15:27:06 [JF]: PC: Believe it was at WG meeting last week - probably going to be more testing of canvas than other aspects of the spec
15:27:47 [JF]: Chaals: there was a call 2 weeks ago, where Rich discussed what worked and what didn't. Some does, some doesn't, but we want to get to a point where we can have it in HTML5, but its not ready yet
15:28:24 [JF]: Chaals: hope to have them ready and passed later, and still catch up to html5
15:28:46 [JF]: PC: encourage the TF to follow the same process as above - provide evidence as early as possible
15:30:06 [JF]: Rich: as I understand it, the path piece has been implemented in a browser
15:30:16 [JF]: Chaals: issues is that we do not have enough to pass
15:30:39 [JF]: Rich: what I really want to see is the caret selection / focus rings get done in this Recommendation
15:31:03 [JF]: Chaals: short answer is we are in the same position. Early comments better than complete comments
15:31:44 [JF]: JS: So we need implementers of this correct?
15:32:14 [JF]: Rich: sent out a note to MS asking about implementation, but have not received an answer
15:32:39 [JF]: CS: don;t believe it is in yet
15:32:51 [JF]: CS: Is there a date for a dot release for canvas?
15:33:21 [JF]: JS: this could exit for CR now minus the things that might get pulled
15:33:40 [JF]: PC: There is already a next-gen document now
15:34:04 [paulc]: For 5.1 schedule, refer to http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-2014-plan.html
15:34:46 [JF]: Chaals: short answer is that we need to look at interop and see what we have
15:34:57 [paulc]: q+
15:34:57 [JF]: knowing that there are a number of things following
15:35:16 [paulc]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-2dcontext-20121217/
15:35:16 [JF]: PC: wish to point out that focus rings are not on "at risk" list
15:35:37 [JF]: when you are in CR, 2 things that can block, testing and implementation
15:36:02 [MarkS]: Focus rings are marked as At Risk in the implementation report: http://dev.w3.org/html5/misc/canvas-implementation.html
15:36:04 [JF]: reason for 5.0 schedule stretches out so far is that anticipate length of time for implementation
15:36:32 [JF]: PC: if you remove something from the Candidate Spec, you need to return to square 1
15:36:45 [chaals]: [MarkS - but that just means "no interop yet", it isn't the same as "at risk" in the process sense]
15:36:50 [JF]: so focus rings is not on the At Risk list
15:37:13 [chaals]: zakim, close agendum 4
15:37:13 [Zakim]: I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, chaals
15:37:18 [chaals]: ack paul
15:37:20 [chaals]: zakim, close agendum 4
15:37:20 [Zakim]: agendum 4, Canvas testing and interoperability, closed
15:37:21 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:37:21 [Zakim]: 5. using alternative text in HTML [from janina]
15:37:23 [JF]: Chaals: we are where we were 2 weeks ago, so lets move on
15:37:26 [chaals]: zakim, take up agendum 5
15:37:26 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "using alternative text in HTML" taken up [from janina]
15:37:48 [JF]: Chaals: this is the changes to the HTML spec, and the guidance that it gives
15:38:06 [JF]: Steve F has been working on that, but we do not have a published version of that yet
15:38:16 [JF]: hope to have that available for review in a few days
15:38:56 [JF]: note that if longdesc gets completed, we will now be able to use that as well, which will likely impact Steve's changes
15:39:05 [paulc]: q+
15:39:09 [paulc]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Jul/0019.html
15:39:10 [chaals]: s/Steve's changes/the section/
15:39:15 [chaals]: ack pau
15:39:34 [JF]: PC: there is a thread (linked here) - is this the same issue?
15:39:59 [JF]: I asked some questions on that thread, and did not receive a response
15:40:20 [JF]: PC: Question is about status of Last Call on Alt Text techniques
15:40:38 [chaals]: q+
15:40:53 [davidb]: davidb has joined #html-a11y
15:40:58 [JF]: JS: delay appears that we were going to finish some edits in the html5 spec first, and having those edites come into the spec document
15:41:29 [JF]: Chaals: short answer is that we expect Steve's document to be moot.
15:42:08 [JF]: PC: Notice Steve\s note of June 6 - states: I have added/updated the following sections in the 5.1 spec...
15:42:28 [JF]: JS: working in the nightlies, with goal of backporting when completed
15:42:43 [JF]: PC: Is there a tag to use that is tracking these issues?
15:43:03 [JF]: Chaals: Will need to query steve, but he is aware of the need
15:43:53 [JF]: PC: Want to make sure what all the steps are. Co-chairs looking for heart-beat docs to be done, and alt techniques is on the list
15:44:23 [JF]: but no point doing that, as it is being merged into the html 5 and 5.1 docs
15:44:42 [JF]: Chaals: I believe that if you asked the group, they would agree to that
15:44:59 [chaals]: zakim, close agendum 5
15:44:59 [Zakim]: I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, chaals
15:45:08 [chaals]: ack pa
15:45:12 [chaals]: ack ch
15:45:20 [chaals]: zakim, close item 5
15:45:20 [Zakim]: agendum 5, using alternative text in HTML, closed
15:45:22 [Zakim]: I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:45:22 [Zakim]: 6. Sub-teams [from janina]
15:45:40 [JF]: Chaals: I know there is nothing from text sub-team, nor bugs
15:45:51 [JF]: are there any sub-teams that have anything to report?
15:46:18 [JF]: Chaals: I have started to look at some media stuff.
15:46:26 [chaals]: zakim, close item 6
15:46:26 [Zakim]: agendum 6, Sub-teams, closed
15:46:27 [Zakim]: I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:46:27 [Zakim]: 7. Any Other Business [from janina]
15:46:31 [JF]: JS: need to look for a time to have a meeting
15:46:53 [JF]: Chaals: have a question about meeting schedules over the next 2 weeks.
15:47:16 [JF]: how many anticipate attendance next week?
15:47:26 [JF]: Chaals: following week?
15:47:50 [JF]: (JF notes that getting quorum over the next 2 weeks is do-able)
15:48:07 [JF]: Chaals: end the meeting early?
15:48:24 [JF]: PC: TF should expect to see a note from the admin re: extension requests
15:48:27 [Zakim]: - +1.619.846.aabb
15:48:29 [Zakim]: -Cynthia_Shelly
15:48:31 [Zakim]: -chaals
15:48:31 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
15:48:32 [Zakim]: -Mark_Sadecki
15:48:32 [Zakim]: -janina
15:48:33 [Zakim]: -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:48:33 [Zakim]: -David_MacDonald
15:48:35 [Zakim]: -SuzanneT
15:48:37 [Zakim]: -John_Foliot
15:48:38 [Zakim]: WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
15:48:38 [Zakim]: Attendees were David_MacDonald, Mark_Sadecki, +1.201.390.aaaa, [Microsoft], Rich_Schwerdtfeger, John_Foliot, janina, [IPcaller], chaals, SuzanneT, +1.619.846.aabb, Cynthia_Shelly
15:48:45 [chaals]: zakim, draft minutes
15:48:45 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'draft minutes', chaals
15:48:50 [chaals]: rrsagent, draft minutes
15:48:50 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/18-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:48:56 [chaals]: rrsagent, make minutes public
15:48:56 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', chaals. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:49:04 [chaals]: rrsagent, make log public
15:51:56 [chaals]: i/JS: need/Topic: Other business (next meetings)/
15:52:00 [chaals]: rrsagent, draft minutes
15:52:00 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/18-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:53:34 [chaals]: i/Chaals: I know there is nothing/Topic: Sub-teams?/
15:54:37 [chaals]: i/Chaals: sent out a CfC/Topic: CfC on our procedures/
15:55:40 [chaals]: rrsagent, draft minutes
15:55:40 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/18-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:57:29 [chaals]: Present: Chaals, Janina, David_McDonald, JohnF, PaulC, RichS, TedO'C, SuzanneT, MarkS, CynthiaS
15:57:37 [chaals]: Regrets: Leonie, SteveF
15:57:49 [chaals]: rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:49 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/18-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:58:31 [chaals]: s/zakim take up next item//
15:58:40 [chaals]: rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:40 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/18-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
16:01:24 [janina]: janina has changed the topic to: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference; Thursday 25 July at 15:00Z for 60 minutes
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