16:44:17 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:44:17 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-irc 16:44:19 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:44:19 Zakim has joined #ua 16:44:21 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:44:21 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 16 minutes 16:44:22 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:44:22 Date: 11 July 2013 16:44:26 rrsagent, set logs public 16:44:34 Chair: Jim Allan 16:45:13 regrets: Kelly, Jeanne, 16:46:21 allanj_ has joined #ua 16:54:25 allanj_ has joined #ua 16:58:50 sharper has joined #ua 16:59:49 agenda? 17:00:08 agenda+ Survey from 4 July 17:00:10 agenda+ Jan proposal for removing summaries 17:00:11 agenda+ Jan proposal for minor UAAG2 comments 17:00:18 Jan has joined #ua 17:00:42 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:00:49 +Jim_Allan 17:00:53 zakim, code? 17:00:53 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 17:01:32 +[IPcaller] 17:01:47 Greg has joined #ua 17:01:58 +??P4 17:02:25 zakim, ??P4 is sharper 17:02:25 +sharper; got it 17:03:25 allanj_ has joined #ua 17:03:32 +Greg_Lowney 17:04:47 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 17:04:47 +Jan; got it 17:05:17 zakim, whos' here? 17:05:17 I don't understand your question, Jan. 17:05:19 agenda? 17:05:25 zakim, who's here? 17:05:25 On the phone I see Jim_Allan, Jan, sharper, Greg_Lowney 17:05:26 On IRC I see allanj, Greg, Jan, sharper, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot 17:07:13 zakim, open item 3 17:07:13 agendum 3. "Jan proposal for minor UAAG2 comments" taken up [from allanj] 17:07:17 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0002.html 17:07:47 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/commentsWD-20130701.html 17:09:32 How does that differ from http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/commentsWD.html? 17:09:40 +Kim_Patch 17:10:00 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:11:05 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0002.html 17:11:14 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/commentsWD-20130701.html 17:11:47 topic EO34 17:11:53 topic: EO34 17:13:04 jr: need to make sure we discuss the intent of notes in the implementing document. 17:15:50 + +1.609.734.aaaa 17:16:44 Eric has joined #ua 17:21:52 If the examples were numbered, I'd have no objection to putting parentheticals like "(see example 7)" into the Implementing document where appropriate. 17:22:40 zakim, aaaa is really Eric 17:22:40 +Eric; got it 17:22:43 Resolution: EO34 the editors will consider numbering Implementing notes and numbering the Examples and cross referencing them as appropriate 17:22:48 But just referring people to the whole Examples section doesn't seem particularly useful. As someone else said, they should go on to read the examples, and every example is elaborating on something in the document. 17:24:04 Resolution: links to the Implementing document be added for EACH SC. \ 17:25:07 Action JR: To look at notes in GL and determine if they are sufficiently explained in the implementing doc 17:25:07 Created ACTION-845 - Look at notes in GL and determine if they are sufficiently explained in the implementing doc [on Jan Richards - due 2013-07-18]. 17:25:16 I think Jan's comment is reasonable that if there's a Note in the main document that could use further elaboration, we could put such elaboration into the Intent. However, I'd rather do it on a case by case basis than to put in paragraphs for every Note. 17:25:21 rrsagent, make minutes 17:25:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-minutes.html allanj 17:26:12 topic: comment AR1 17:26:45 If an application developer *chooses* to use a particular library, toolset or framework that limits their accessibility, that is not enough to let the claim a “not applicable due to platform limitations” (NA-Platform) status, because they could have developed for the same set of users but using a different library, and thus avoided the limiting factor. They only get the NA-Platform... 17:26:46 ...status if... 17:26:48 ...the limitation was imposed by something they could not avoid without changing audience (e.g. switching from one OS to another, or to another hardware platform). By the way, will the descriptions of different Success, Not Applicable, and Fail statuses be included somewhere? 17:27:41 jr: comment suggest that we should not limit to (hardware or software). 17:28:36 ... if you review the definition of platform it is clear that platform is more than hardware and OS. 17:28:55 ... remove "(hardware or operating system)" 17:29:36 jr: re: greg comment - isn't it easier to list limitations 17:31:08 gl: this creates a big loophole, that developer could put inaccessible stuff in a library, so its not the applications fault, it is a problem of a library. 17:31:34 jr: need to be clear about what causes the limitation 17:32:40 eh: if developer declares NA due to limitation of the platform, right 17:33:07 gl: choosing a library to use, is critical, they should be held accountable. 17:33:36 jr: you would be partially conforming. 17:34:40 gl: 508 issues. VPAT lets you list your limitations, but not necessarily fix them 17:36:03 gl: have not listed categories of PASS, FAIL and NA. we cannot decide this until we have the categories 17:37:17 eh: we do ask them to provide a rationale for using a limitation. 17:37:37 gl: we have to elaborate on the limitations. 17:37:45 jr: +1 17:38:19 eh: should we list things that are not acceptable as a limitation. 17:39:21 gl: 20 different libraries for widgets and you choose a non-keyboard accessible library, that was a poor choice, you do not get a PASS or an NA 17:40:03 ...because that library was part of your platform, but it was an *optional* portion of your platform. 17:40:23 eh: do we have the bandwidth to create this listing. 17:41:42 ... compare different products. Narrowly defined UA and broad defintion of Platform. a different product with broad UA def. and narrow Platform def. might skew the results. 17:44:48 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JanMar/0010.html 17:45:25 allanj_ has joined #ua 17:51:00 Resolution: Review Greg's proposal (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JanMar/0010.html) as a shortened bit to add to conformance - as a resolution to comment AR1 17:51:24 rrsagent, make minutes 17:51:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-minutes.html allanj 17:53:34 gl: what qualifies as platform limitation? this is what is needed for resolving AR1 17:57:29 eh: example, if you have multiple libraries, only one of which is accessible. the functionality of the library, has to be part of the UA not the platform. 17:57:53 ... conformance scheme allows declaring the limitation of the UA. 17:58:08 ... if you delcare what is related to UA and what is Platform 17:58:27 ... if we have rules about what is allowed in the Platform. 17:59:27 gl: Platform limitations are things you cannot avoid or get around. these are not optional. 18:00:11 ... only things you can't avoid are allowed, things that are optional is not a Platform limitation 18:00:44 jr: makes sense 18:00:50 kim: +1 18:03:05 eh: things that are optional, are not an adequate criteria for making something a platform limitation 18:04:37 jr: we have a good conformance section. wanted to see how Greg's piece will fit in to make it more robust.. 18:05:11 gl: rewrite paragraph 7 to be more specific about what is or is not a platform limitation. 18:05:43 ... a separate issue, is my previous proposal. 18:05:49 Possible language: "If a design choice in platform components is optional, then a platform limitation cannot make a success criterion not-applicable." 18:07:10 Action: Greg to draft rewrite of Conformance item 7 "Platform Limitations" to distinguish between those that qualify for NA (e.g. unavoidable features of the OS or hardware) vs. those that do not (e.g. optional libraries) 18:07:10 Created ACTION-846 - Draft rewrite of Conformance item 7 "Platform Limitations" to distinguish between those that qualify for NA (e.g. unavoidable features of the OS or hardware) vs. those that do not (e.g. optional libraries) [on Greg Lowney - due 2013-07-18]. 18:07:27 Possible language v2: "If a design choice in a platform component is optional, then a platform limitation due to that component cannot make a success criterion not-applicable." 18:08:01 Topic: comment EO10 & EO11 18:09:12 Action: Greg to draft rewrite of Conformance item 9 "Declarations" to incorporate the proposed claim codes such as NA-Platform 18:09:12 Created ACTION-847 - Draft rewrite of Conformance item 9 "Declarations" to incorporate the proposed claim codes such as NA-Platform [on Greg Lowney - due 2013-07-18]. 18:09:31 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/commentsWD-20130701.html 18:11:09 -Greg_Lowney 18:11:44 +Greg_Lowney 18:13:11 gl: moving the paragraph "some UAAG2.0 requirements..." as a note in Programmatic Access GL 18:13:16 jr: +1 18:13:31 We can move this Note to the beginning of Principle 4 "Programmatic Access". Its purpose is presumably to avoid the knee-jerk reaction of some readers who say "this platform accessibility API idea is ridiculous because it will be a security hole!" 18:13:46 eh: is there a reliance to an underlying security mechanism? 18:15:02 gl: we assume that developers will address security issues when using APIs 18:15:16 Action JR: Turn security paragraph in overview into a proposed note for the programmatic access GL 18:15:16 Created ACTION-848 - Turn security paragraph in overview into a proposed note for the programmatic access GL [on Jan Richards - due 2013-07-18]. 18:16:51 Resolution: Comment AR1 - remove paragraph, reword as a note to be included in Principal 4, (see action-848) 18:17:29 Topic: comment EO12 18:19:27 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130628/#layers_guide 18:23:43 allanj_ has joined #ua 18:24:35 Resolution: comment EO12 - group feels that the section is adequate as is. 18:24:59 Topic: comment EO13 & EO 14 18:28:28 suggest - remove information after Principles 18:29:14 Principles - there are 5 high level principles that organize the guidelines. 18:31:30 kim: tend to agree with comment. readers need a better mental map of what's coming up in the document 18:31:48 Action: kim to reword layers of guidance principles bullet point to include better explanation 18:31:48 Created ACTION-849 - Reword layers of guidance principles bullet point to include better explanation [on Kimberly Patch - due 2013-07-18]. 18:35:25 -Jan 18:35:26 -sharper 18:35:27 -Eric 18:35:28 -Kim_Patch 18:35:29 -Jim_Allan 18:35:36 rrsagent: make minutes 18:35:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:35:36 -Greg_Lowney 18:35:38 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:35:38 Attendees were Jim_Allan, sharper, Greg_Lowney, Jan, Kim_Patch, +1.609.734.aaaa, Eric 18:36:06 s/principals/principles 18:36:11 rrsagent: make minutes 18:36:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:39:21 rrsagent, make minutes 18:39:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:39:58 rrsagent, make minutes 18:39:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-minutes.html Greg 18:41:05 zakim, please part 18:41:05 Zakim has left #ua 18:41:12 rrsagent, make minutes 18:41:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:41:35 rrsagent, please part 18:41:35 I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-actions.rdf : 18:41:35 ACTION: JR to To look at notes in GL and determine if they are sufficiently explained in the implementing doc [1] 18:41:35 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-irc#T17-25-07 18:41:35 ACTION: Greg to draft rewrite of Conformance item 7 "Platform Limitations" to distinguish between those that qualify for NA (e.g. unavoidable features of the OS or hardware) vs. those that do not (e.g. optional libraries) [2] 18:41:35 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-irc#T18-07-10 18:41:35 ACTION: Greg to draft rewrite of Conformance item 9 "Declarations" to incorporate the proposed claim codes such as NA-Platform [3] 18:41:35 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-irc#T18-09-12 18:41:35 ACTION: JR to Turn security paragraph in overview into a proposed note for the programmatic access GL [4] 18:41:35 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-irc#T18-15-16 18:41:35 ACTION: kim to reword layers of guidance principles bullet point to include better explanation [5] 18:41:35 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/11-ua-irc#T18-31-48