19:56:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #crypto
19:56:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/08-crypto-irc
19:56:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:56:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SEC_WebCryp
19:56:47 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SEC_WebCryp()4:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
19:56:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Cryptography Working Group Teleconference
19:56:48 <trackbot> Date: 08 July 2013
19:57:28 <tantek> tantek has joined #crypto
19:58:19 <Zakim> SEC_WebCryp()4:00PM has now started
19:58:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:58:25 <jimsch> jimsch has joined #crypto
19:59:00 <Zakim> + +1.512.257.aaaa
19:59:01 <hhalpin> hhalpin has joined #crypto
19:59:02 <markw> markw has joined #crypto
19:59:03 <Zakim> - +1.512.257.aaaa
19:59:03 <Zakim> + +1.512.257.aaaa
19:59:24 <virginie> virginie has joined #crypto
19:59:31 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
19:59:32 <virginie> agenda ?
19:59:38 <Zakim> + +1.408.540.aabb
19:59:50 <markw> Zakim, aabb is Netflix
19:59:50 <Zakim> +Netflix; got it
19:59:54 <MichaelH> MichaelH has joined #CRYPTO
19:59:56 <markw> Zakim, Netflix has markw
19:59:56 <Zakim> +markw; got it
20:00:12 <tantek_> tantek_ has joined #crypto
20:00:12 <virginie> agenda+ welcome
20:00:32 <virginie> agenda+ Web Crypto API (code name low level API)
20:00:37 <Zakim> +Wendy
20:00:52 <virginie> agenda+ Web Crypto Key Discovery (next step)
20:01:02 <wseltzer> chair: Virginie
20:01:04 <virginie> agenda+ Web Crypto use cases
20:01:18 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
20:01:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 27978 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
20:01:19 <wseltzer> wseltzer has changed the topic to: Call today, July 8
20:01:21 <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aacc
20:01:22 <virginie> agenda+ group life (summer activities and priorities)
20:01:33 <vgb> vgb has joined #crypto
20:01:53 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:02:03 <vgb> zakim, [microsoft] is me
20:02:03 <Zakim> +vgb; got it
20:02:08 <Zakim> + +1.512.257.aadd
20:02:24 <virginie> zakim, aadd is me
20:02:24 <Zakim> +virginie; got it
20:02:26 <Zakim> + +1.857.928.aaee
20:02:26 <rsleevi> rsleevi has joined #crypto
20:02:34 <wseltzer> zakim, who is here?
20:02:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], +1.512.257.aaaa, [IPcaller.a], Netflix, Wendy, +1.650.214.aacc, vgb, virginie, +1.857.928.aaee
20:02:36 <Zakim> Netflix has markw
20:02:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see rsleevi, vgb, tantek_, MichaelH, virginie, markw, hhalpin, jimsch, tantek, RRSAgent, Zakim, jyates, sangrae, nvdbleek, ddahl, eroman, timeless, slightlyoff, trackbot,
20:02:36 <Zakim> ... wseltzer
20:02:45 <virginie> zakim, who is on the call
20:02:45 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', virginie
20:02:59 <MichaelH> zakim, aaaa is me
20:02:59 <Zakim> +MichaelH; got it
20:03:03 <sangrae> I think [IPcaller.a] is me
20:03:06 <virginie> zakim, who is on the call ?
20:03:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], MichaelH, [IPcaller.a], Netflix, Wendy, Google, vgb, virginie, +1.857.928.aaee
20:03:09 <Zakim> Netflix has markw
20:03:09 <Zakim> Google has rsleevi
20:03:14 <wseltzer> zakim, IPcaller.a is probably sangrae
20:03:14 <Zakim> +sangrae?; got it
20:03:20 <wseltzer> zakim, who is here?
20:03:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], MichaelH, sangrae?, Netflix, Wendy, Google, vgb, virginie, +1.857.928.aaee
20:03:22 <Zakim> Netflix has markw
20:03:22 <Zakim> Google has rsleevi
20:03:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see rsleevi, vgb, tantek_, MichaelH, virginie, markw, hhalpin, jimsch, tantek, RRSAgent, Zakim, jyates, sangrae, nvdbleek, ddahl, eroman, timeless, slightlyoff, trackbot,
20:03:22 <Zakim> ... wseltzer
20:03:24 <jyates> Zakim, aaee is jyates
20:03:24 <Zakim> +jyates; got it
20:03:30 <virginie> zakim, who is on the call ?
20:03:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], MichaelH, sangrae?, Netflix, Wendy, Google, vgb, virginie, jyates
20:03:32 <Zakim> Netflix has markw
20:03:32 <Zakim> Google has rsleevi
20:03:36 <Zakim> + +1.512.257.aaff
20:03:51 <wseltzer> zakim, aaff is karen
20:03:51 <Zakim> +karen; got it
20:03:53 <jimsch> zakim, IPcaller is jimsch
20:03:53 <Zakim> +jimsch; got it
20:03:58 <karen> karen has joined #crypto
20:04:01 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:04:28 <israelh> israelh has joined #Crypto
20:04:37 <virginie> agenda?
20:04:41 <wseltzer> zakim, Microsoft has israelh
20:04:42 <Zakim> israelh was already listed in [Microsoft], wseltzer
20:05:11 <wseltzer> scribenick: wseltzer
20:05:30 <wseltzer> Topic: Welcome
20:06:23 <wseltzer> virginie: prioritization. look with vgb at life-cycle
20:06:38 <Zakim> + +31.61.877.aagg
20:06:38 <wseltzer> ... ask for review of bugs
20:06:51 <wseltzer> zakim, aagg is nvdbleek
20:06:51 <Zakim> +nvdbleek; got it
20:06:55 <nvdbleek> zakim, I am +31
20:06:55 <Zakim> sorry, nvdbleek, I do not see a party named '+31'
20:07:08 <wseltzer> virginie: for next call, wrap/unwrap discussion
20:07:11 <mitchz> mitchz has joined #crypto
20:07:21 <nvdbleek> zakim, I am +31.61.877.aagg
20:07:21 <Zakim> sorry, nvdbleek, I do not see a party named '+31.61.877.aagg'
20:07:27 <wseltzer> ... future of 2 other specs, key discovery and use cases
20:07:36 <nvdbleek> zakim, I am 31.61.877.aagg
20:07:36 <Zakim> sorry, nvdbleek, I do not see a party named '31.61.877.aagg'
20:07:44 <nvdbleek> zakim, who is here?
20:07:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see jimsch, MichaelH, sangrae?, Netflix, Wendy, Google, vgb, virginie, jyates, karen, [Microsoft], nvdbleek
20:07:47 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has israelh
20:07:47 <Zakim> Netflix has markw
20:07:47 <Zakim> Google has rsleevi
20:07:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see mitchz, israelh, karen, rsleevi, vgb, tantek, MichaelH, virginie, markw, hhalpin, jimsch, RRSAgent, Zakim, jyates, sangrae, nvdbleek, ddahl, eroman, timeless,
20:07:48 <Zakim> ... slightlyoff, trackbot, wseltzer
20:07:54 <wseltzer> q?
20:07:57 <MichaelH> @nvdbleek use aagg
20:08:17 <markw> Zakim, Netflix has markw, mitchz
20:08:17 <Zakim> markw was already listed in Netflix, markw
20:08:18 <Zakim> +mitchz; got it
20:08:30 <wseltzer> virginie: approval of minutes
20:08:35 <arunranga> arunranga has joined #crypto
20:08:44 <wseltzer> [agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webcrypto/2013Jul/0007.html ]
20:08:45 <virginie> http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-crypto-minutes.html and http://www.w3.org/2013/06/17-crypto-minutes.html  and http://www.w3.org/2013/06/24-crypto-minutes.html
20:09:07 <wseltzer> virginie: any objection to these minutes (3, 17, and 24 June)?
20:09:18 <wseltzer> ... no objection
20:09:24 <wseltzer> zakim, take up agendum 2
20:09:24 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Web Crypto API (code name low level API)" taken up [from virginie]
20:09:51 <wseltzer> vgb: sent some write-up on key agreement proposal
20:10:08 <wseltzer> ... any comments?
20:10:13 <wseltzer> ACTION-84?
20:10:13 <trackbot> ACTION-84 -- Richard Barnes to vgb and jimsch to discuss key generation/derivation/agreement -- due 2013-05-21 -- OPEN
20:10:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/webcrypto/track/actions/84
20:10:37 <wseltzer> [ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webcrypto/2013Jun/0001.html ]
20:10:48 <Zakim> +ddahl
20:10:52 <wseltzer> vgb: email had edits to the then-current draft
20:10:58 <rsleevi> q+
20:10:58 <wseltzer> virginie: any questions?
20:11:02 <wseltzer> ack next
20:11:11 <Zakim> + +1.505.665.aahh
20:11:13 <wseltzer> rsleevi: Next step is to integrate into the draft
20:11:33 <wseltzer> ... Updating the key agreement and key derivation points will happen for the next update
20:13:02 <wseltzer> zakim, aahh is Ben_Santos
20:13:02 <Zakim> +Ben_Santos; got it
20:14:16 <rsleevi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webcrypto/2013Jul/0002.html
20:14:29 <Zakim> -virginie
20:14:39 <wseltzer> rsleevi: that's the current status
20:14:53 <wseltzer> ... a colleague working on implementation found a number of spec bugs
20:15:07 <wseltzer> ... Encourage all implementers to file bugs
20:15:13 <wseltzer> ... thanks to Jim for filing issues
20:15:31 <wseltzer> ... Please file bugs where you find typos, spec ambiguity, errors
20:15:50 <wseltzer> ... we'll only need to raise them on the call if complex or controversial
20:15:52 <Zakim> + +33.4.42.36.aaii
20:16:12 <virginie> Zakim, aaii is me
20:16:12 <Zakim> +virginie; got it
20:16:22 <wseltzer> ... Working on adding more normative text. particularly on import-key, which has been underspecified
20:16:37 <wseltzer> ... algorithm definitions. expect to see more normative references
20:17:02 <wseltzer> ... Requires careful attention to detail. Look through and report.
20:17:13 <israelh> q+
20:17:54 <wseltzer> ack next
20:18:26 <wseltzer> israelh: When do we expect to resolve wrap/unwrap, import/export?
20:18:50 <wseltzer> ... from an implementation perspective, how much of a deadline can we expect?
20:19:04 <wseltzer> virginie: ryan?
20:19:08 <wseltzer> rsleevi: It
20:19:18 <wseltzer> s/It/It's up to the chair/
20:19:29 <wseltzer> virginie: Would like to have decisions made during the summer.
20:19:57 <wseltzer> ... ideally, wrap/unwrap would be decided on the next call, but I understand Mark won't be able to make it
20:20:07 <wseltzer> ... so perhaps the next four weeks.
20:20:14 <markw> q+
20:20:22 <wseltzer> ... On import/export, I've seen less controversy; also next 4 weeks
20:20:25 <wseltzer> ack next
20:20:42 <wseltzer> markw: The controversy in wrap/unwrap is now what goes into import/export.
20:21:00 <wseltzer> ... because w/u refers to i/e.
20:21:15 <wseltzer> virginie: My target is the coming 4 weeks
20:21:38 <wseltzer> israelh: We already published an implementation matching the pre-promises spec
20:21:50 <wseltzer> ... that points to an older wrap/unwrap.
20:22:13 <wseltzer> ... our timeframe is short to impact the next rev that will eventually ship
20:22:18 <wseltzer> ... next week or two
20:22:52 <wseltzer> ... if no resolution happens in next week or two, we'll continue to ship what we have
20:23:05 <wseltzer> virginie: Can we start discussing, then?
20:23:51 <wseltzer> markw: the stable part is the new wrap/unwrap text
20:24:03 <wseltzer> ... where the construction is up to the javascript
20:24:14 <wseltzer> ... decrypt+import; encrypt+export
20:24:16 <virginie> recent Mark's comments on wrap/unwrap issue : http://www.w3.org/2012/webcrypto/wiki/KeyWrap_Notes_July
20:24:29 <wseltzer> ... how do you preserve non-exportability when unwrapping?
20:24:43 <wseltzer> ... we need at least one format that supports attributes
20:24:55 <wseltzer> ... so we proposed mapping to/from JWK attributes
20:25:18 <wseltzer> ... about preserving non-extractability.
20:25:20 <rsleevi> Actually, lemme log that remark
20:25:21 <rsleevi> PKCS#11 does this by exposing attributes on the wrapping key, rather than the key-to-be-unwrapped. So it's not necessarily true that the key format uses attributes
20:25:55 <wseltzer> rsleevi: not sure the key format inherently needs attributes
20:26:10 <wseltzer> ... the wrapping key can be the attribute bearer
20:26:11 <markw> q+
20:26:39 <wseltzer> ... working through accessible practice to web devs; compatible;
20:27:29 <wseltzer> ... appreciate Mark's work; concerned about technical scalability
20:27:41 <jimsch> q+
20:29:30 <wseltzer> ack next
20:30:04 <wseltzer> markw: the notion of attaching attributes to JWK has been part of our proposal from the beginning
20:30:20 <wseltzer> ... Ryan's proposal is interesting, but what if you want to wrap and unwrap a wrapping key?
20:31:49 <wseltzer> jimsch: I'm a bit worried. JOSE doesn't know have attributes on key-wrap keys
20:32:02 <wseltzer> ... is there an issue if the key-wrap key is exportable?
20:32:23 <wseltzer> markw: the proposal at the moment only uses the basic JWK key representation
20:33:33 <hhalpin> Zakim, what's the code?
20:33:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 27978 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), hhalpin
20:34:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:34:13 <hhalpin> Zakim, [IPcaller] is hhalpin
20:34:13 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
20:34:45 <wseltzer> ... if you want to maintain non-extractability, everything has to be non-extractable
20:34:55 <virginie> agenda+ status on high level api
20:35:34 <wseltzer> virginie: ad-hoc conference call next week?
20:35:36 <markw> works for me
20:35:39 <Zakim> -Ben_Santos
20:36:03 <wseltzer> ... react on the mailing list
20:36:13 <markw> q+
20:36:21 <jimsch> Q-
20:36:27 <wseltzer> ... status update in two weeks
20:36:31 <wseltzer> ack next
20:36:49 <wseltzer> markw: Let's try to keep implementation timeline in mind
20:37:03 <wseltzer> ... we should be able to solve within that time-frame
20:37:31 <wseltzer> virginie: let's put this as priority #1 on the mailing list
20:37:36 <MichaelH> +q
20:37:40 <wseltzer> q+
20:37:53 <wseltzer> ack next
20:38:14 <rsleevi> MichaelH: I already addressed this earlier in the call.
20:38:17 <wseltzer> MichaelH: can Ryan fill out import/export part of the spec to identify issues?
20:39:09 <wseltzer> virginie: Action to WG to make progress
20:39:47 <wseltzer> ... we can ask Mark, Ryan, Jim, to work on it.
20:40:05 <wseltzer> virginie: Work on wrap/unwrap and try to reach consensus
20:40:07 <MichaelH> +q
20:40:09 <israelh> q+
20:40:11 <wseltzer> ack ws
20:40:16 <wseltzer> ack next
20:40:46 <wseltzer> MichaelH: I asked whether decrypt option should be disabled on unwrap
20:41:09 <wseltzer> rsleevi: that's application side, not implementation, as we discussed at f2f
20:41:28 <wseltzer> MichaelH: the spec doesn't prevent a decrypt operation if decrypt isn't part of the usage?
20:41:47 <wseltzer> rsleevi: if you attempt to decrypt and don't have a decrypt operation, that will be prevented
20:42:11 <wseltzer> ... there are sub-steps to be specified
20:42:41 <wseltzer> MichaelH: "if the key usage does not say decrypt, then file exception"
20:42:52 <wseltzer> rsleevi: file a bug
20:42:56 <wseltzer> ack next
20:42:57 <virginie> q?
20:43:42 <wseltzer> israelh: Another question: we discussed support for streaming APIs, heard potentially v2
20:44:23 <wseltzer> ... what's the group's appetite for that?
20:44:25 <rsleevi> q+
20:44:42 <wseltzer> ack next
20:45:06 <wseltzer> rsleevi: I would love to see streaming; the chunking problem exists with FileAPI as well
20:45:18 <wseltzer> ... concern is inconsistency
20:46:38 <rsleevi> note: Microsoft has made a proposal based on the Streams API
20:46:47 <wseltzer> israelh: we want to figure out how to resolve the streaming issue consistently
20:46:57 <wseltzer> ... what do we do with multi-part now?
20:47:19 <jimsch> what is meant by multi-part?
20:47:33 <wseltzer> ... do we want to provide a band-aid now?
20:47:41 <rsleevi> @jimsch: .process() with multiple incomplete buffers, followed by .finish()
20:47:56 <rsleevi> @jimsch: Which is conceptually a band-aid for a lack of a streaming API
20:48:46 <rsleevi> @jimsch: The question is sort of "Do we proceed with .process(), as a band-aid" or "Do we drop this, until we get a good/consistent Streaming API"
20:49:08 <wseltzer> israelh: I think that's one of the things that will come out at last call
20:49:13 <rsleevi> q+
20:49:17 <wseltzer> ... demand for multi-part
20:49:49 <wseltzer> rsleevi: thanks Israel. this is an issue we should consider
20:50:24 <wseltzer> ... it's not critical to our use cases right now, but people might well come forward with use cases at last call
20:50:47 <wseltzer> ... do we proceed with a solution now, that we can never remove, or do we wait and proceed holistically?
20:51:22 <jimsch> q+
20:51:30 <wseltzer> ... how important are the multi-part and streaming use cases? the consistency of the web platform?
20:51:34 <wseltzer> ack rs
20:51:35 <virginie> suggests we move on on the agenda, and solve
20:52:02 <wseltzer> virginie: suggest israelh file an issue to track the discussion
20:52:08 <wseltzer> ack jimsch
20:52:33 <wseltzer> jimsch: big difference between multi-part and stream; don't think the band-aid solves things
20:52:49 <virginie> agenda?
20:52:57 <jimsch> without multipart output then streaming is not really addressed
20:53:11 <wseltzer> zakim, take up agendum 3
20:53:11 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Web Crypto Key Discovery (next step)" taken up [from virginie]
20:53:18 <wseltzer> virginie: Mark, any changes?
20:53:34 <wseltzer> markw: one change pending, to simplify getkeysbyname to getkeybyname
20:53:53 <wseltzer> ... without clear use case for multiple keys
20:54:24 <wseltzer> virginie: On next call, bring forward next drafts of Key Discovery and Use Cases
20:54:28 <wseltzer> ... in 2 weeks.
20:54:51 <MichaelH> @markw I have a need for multi key discovery
20:55:29 <wseltzer> zakim, take up agendum 4
20:55:29 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Web Crypto use cases" taken up [from virginie]
20:55:59 <wseltzer> virginie: if Arun can integrate changes, we can bring forward for next working draft. not normative, but useful
20:56:07 <wseltzer> zakim, take up agendum 6
20:56:07 <Zakim> agendum 6. "status on high level api" taken up [from virginie]
20:56:07 <nvdbleek> @markW I'll send a use case for returning multiple keys this week (for a possible future version of the discovery API)
20:56:38 <wseltzer> virginie: ad hoc call about high-level API. Work to start in September based on polycrypt
20:57:05 <wseltzer> zakim, take up agendum 5
20:57:05 <Zakim> agendum 5. "group life (summer activities and priorities)" taken up [from virginie]
20:57:19 <wseltzer> virginie: Keep working through summer
20:57:30 <wseltzer> ... priorities: finalize wrap/unwrap
20:57:43 <wseltzer> ... bugs and work on low-level API
20:57:51 <wseltzer> ... then address certificates, as discussed at f2f
20:58:34 <wseltzer> ... objective, to go for last call during f2f at TPAC, China
20:58:53 <wseltzer> ... any comments?
20:59:15 <wseltzer> ... Sept/Oct, we'll need to set up testing activity
20:59:22 <wseltzer> ... call for volunteers.
20:59:24 <hhalpin> In particular, a maintainer for the git repo for test-suite
20:59:56 <Zakim> -vgb
20:59:58 <wseltzer> ... also JOSE meeting in August IETF
21:00:29 <wseltzer> ... when you hang up, think about what you can do for wrap/unwrap!
21:00:40 <Zakim> -Google
21:00:45 <Zakim> -jimsch
21:00:46 <Zakim> -ddahl
21:00:46 <Zakim> -hhalpin
21:00:47 <Zakim> -jyates
21:00:47 <Zakim> -karen
21:00:49 <Zakim> -virginie
21:00:49 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
21:00:50 <Zakim> -Wendy
21:00:51 <Zakim> -Netflix
21:00:54 <Zakim> -sangrae?
21:01:03 <karen> exit
21:01:13 <israelh> Tracking issue for stream API support in Webcrypto: https://www.w3.org/2012/webcrypto/track/issues/49
21:01:19 <wseltzer> RRSAgent, list attendees
21:01:19 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendees', wseltzer.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:01:24 <wseltzer> trackbot, end teleconf
21:01:25 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
21:01:25 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.512.257.aaaa, +1.408.540.aabb, markw, Wendy, +1.650.214.aacc, vgb, +1.512.257.aadd, virginie, +1.857.928.aaee, rsleevi, MichaelH,
21:01:27 <Zakim> ... sangrae?, jyates, +1.512.257.aaff, karen, jimsch, israelh, +31.61.877.aagg, nvdbleek, mitchz, ddahl, +1.505.665.aahh, Ben_Santos, +33.4.42.36.aaii, hhalpin
21:01:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:01:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/08-crypto-minutes.html trackbot
21:01:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
21:01:33 <RRSAgent> I see no action items