14:57:34 RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg 14:57:34 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/03-rdf-wg-irc 14:57:36 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:57:36 Zakim has joined #rdf-wg 14:57:38 Zakim, this will be 73394 14:57:38 ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 14:57:39 Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference 14:57:39 Date: 03 July 2013 14:57:42 AndyS has joined #rdf-wg 14:58:11 chair: Guus 14:59:35 zakim, who is here? 14:59:35 SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus 14:59:36 On IRC I see AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, manu, trackbot, Guus, gavinc, TallTed, SteveH, davidwood, manu1, yvesr, mischat, ericP, sandro 14:59:50 Zakim, this is RDF 14:59:50 ok, davidwood; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM 14:59:56 Zakim, who is here? 14:59:56 On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, +1.540.898.aaaa, GavinC 14:59:58 On IRC I see AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, manu, trackbot, Guus, gavinc, TallTed, SteveH, davidwood, manu1, yvesr, mischat, ericP, sandro 15:00:03 Zakim, aaaa is me 15:00:03 +davidwood; got it 15:00:08 +??P4 15:00:17 pfps has joined #rdf-wg 15:00:23 Zakim, ??P4 is me 15:00:23 +yvesr; got it 15:00:48 +[IPcaller] 15:00:53 +[GVoice] 15:00:55 zakim, IPcaller is me 15:00:55 +AndyS; got it 15:01:05 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:01:05 On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, davidwood, GavinC, yvesr, AndyS, [GVoice] 15:01:10 zakim, who is here? 15:01:10 On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, davidwood, GavinC, yvesr, AndyS, [GVoice] 15:01:12 On IRC I see pfps, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, manu, trackbot, Guus, gavinc, TallTed, SteveH, davidwood, manu1, yvesr, mischat, ericP, sandro 15:01:23 zakim, gvoice is me 15:01:23 +pfps; got it 15:02:07 pchampin has joined #rdf-wg 15:02:16 Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg 15:03:01 zakim, who is here? 15:03:02 On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, davidwood, GavinC, yvesr, AndyS, pfps 15:03:03 On IRC I see Arnaud, pchampin, pfps, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, manu, trackbot, Guus, gavinc, TallTed, SteveH, davidwood, manu1, yvesr, mischat, ericP, sandro 15:03:03 +Arnaud 15:03:21 markus has joined #rdf-wg 15:03:40 scribe: gavinc 15:03:52 Arnaud has changed the topic to: RDF-WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ -- agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.07.03 15:04:16 Topic: Admin 15:04:20 +Sandro 15:04:25 PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 26 June telecon 15:04:28 zakim, code? 15:04:28 the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), markus 15:04:29 minutes are fine 15:04:33 +EricP 15:04:38 Guss: No objections. 15:04:46 +??P14 15:04:46 Guus: No objections. 15:04:51 zakim, ??P14 is me 15:04:51 +markus; got it 15:04:55 RESOLVED: accept the minutes of the 26 June telecon 15:05:02 subtopic: Actions 15:05:11 q+ 15:05:14 Guus: 9 pending review actions 15:05:36 I marked some old actions as pending review 15:06:05 Guus: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview claiming victory on all 9 unless there are objections? 15:06:19 PatH has joined #rdf-wg 15:06:25 q+? 15:06:32 Guus: Skipping other actions 15:06:49 subtopic: Summer telecon schedule 15:07:15 davidwood: Was hoping that we'd get documents to LC before starting bi-weekly 15:07:18 manu-work has joined #rdf-wg 15:07:21 +PatH 15:07:24 +1 to DavidWood 15:07:25 Guus: Yes, assuming everything goes to plan 15:07:30 +1 to davidwood 15:07:31 davidwood proposes that if we don't go to LC today, that we meet bi-hourly 15:08:05 Topic: LC Drafts of Concepts and Semantics 15:08:08 q- 15:08:12 q-? 15:08:12 Guus: Thanks to davidwood and pfps 15:08:38 AZ has joined #rdf-wg 15:09:07 zakim, who is here? 15:09:07 On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, davidwood, GavinC, yvesr, AndyS, pfps, Arnaud, Sandro, EricP, markus, PatH 15:09:09 On IRC I see AZ, PatH, markus, Arnaud, pchampin, pfps, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, manu, trackbot, Guus, gavinc, TallTed, SteveH, davidwood, manu1, yvesr, mischat, ericP, sandro 15:09:20 davidwood: Markus did a review. I think I've addressed all of his concerns, except for one. Wanted to move a group of mathy sections into semantics, didn't do that. 15:09:28 there are also independent reasons to keep several of these sections in Concepts 15:09:49 ... propose to go into last call as the documents stand, and peter and I can talk about moving some of the sections between the documents as I contend that editorial 15:10:00 markus: Yeah, we can sort it out later. 15:10:08 zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg 15:10:25 davidwood: Did move isomorphic out of headers per AndyS. I think your right markus to try and work that out. 15:10:39 subtopic: Semantics 15:10:56 PatH: Semantics is ready to go. There will be some tweaks to it. 15:11:01 +??P19 15:11:04 + +1.619.663.aabb 15:11:11 ... links to some of the terms in concepts will need to be added 15:11:19 Zakim, aabb is me 15:11:20 +AZ; got it 15:11:22 zakim, +1.619.663.aabb is me 15:11:22 sorry, zwu2, I do not recognize a party named '+1.619.663.aabb' 15:11:25 pfps: Haven't had any significant changes in a few weeks 15:11:42 ISSUE-113? 15:11:42 ISSUE-113 -- RDF Keys -- open 15:11:42 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/113 15:11:45 ISSUE-118? 15:11:45 ISSUE-118 -- Simplifying datatype semantics -- open 15:11:45 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/118 15:11:51 davidwood: pfps, issue 118 and 113 need to be closed before Semantics/Concepts before LC? 15:11:55 pfps: Yes. 15:11:56 zakim, +1.619.663.aabb is me 15:11:56 sorry, zwu2, I do not recognize a party named '+1.619.663.aabb' 15:12:11 Peter's message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Jul/0037.html 15:12:12 davidwood: The mailing list seems to show consensus 15:12:18 zakim, aabb is me 15:12:18 sorry, zwu2, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb' 15:12:33 Guus: Happy to resolve these two issues. 15:12:34 zakim, mute me 15:12:34 sorry, zwu2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 15:12:47 -1 to opening an issue around the lists stuff from JSON-LD 15:13:17 Guus: No discusion on LC Concepts and Semantics 15:13:27 ISSUE-113? 15:13:27 ISSUE-113 -- RDF Keys -- open 15:13:27 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/113 15:13:39 pfps: We need to close the two issues 15:13:59 davidwood: We haven't done anything releated to keys, but we have done things related to this issue. 15:14:24 s/two issues/at least issue-118 15:15:16 yes, OWL-2 has keys 15:15:24 sandro: OWL-2 has keys. 15:15:56 The RDF Keys message complains about the need for context (datasets) and quads (datasets). 15:16:18 yes 15:16:20 ISSUE-118? 15:16:20 ISSUE-118 -- Simplifying datatype semantics -- open 15:16:20 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/118 15:16:36 PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-113 saying that this WG's work on datasets and OWL-2's introduction of keys addresses the reported concern. 15:17:23 +1 15:17:24 +1 15:17:25 +1 15:17:26 +1 15:17:26 +1 15:17:27 +1 15:17:29 +1 15:17:32 +1 15:17:34 0 15:17:36 sandro: +1 15:17:45 +0.8 15:17:48 RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-113 saying that this WG's work on datasets and OWL-2's introduction of keys addresses the reported concern. 15:17:49 +1 15:17:49 +1 15:17:51 Proposed: Close ISSUE-118 (datatypes) as specified in Semantics (datatype maps have been removed) 15:18:10 +1 15:18:12 +1 15:18:13 +1 15:18:14 +1 15:18:16 +1 15:18:19 +1 15:18:25 sandro: +1 15:18:28 +1 15:18:37 +1 15:18:39 RESOLVED:  Close ISSUE-118 (datatypes) as specified in Semantics (datatype maps have been removed) 15:19:33 PROPOSED: Publish rdf11-concepts as a Last Call Working Draft https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html 15:19:41 +1 15:19:42 +1 15:19:45 +1 15:19:46 +1 15:19:48 _1 15:19:48 +1 15:19:50 +1 15:19:51 +1 15:19:51 +1 15:19:52 +1 15:19:57 +1 15:19:57 +1 15:20:05 (the JSON-LD ref. should be fixed before publication) 15:20:37 RESOLVED: Publish rdf11-concepts as a Last Call Working Draft https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html 15:21:11 +1 15:21:15 +1 15:21:15 PROPOSED: Publish rdf11-mt as a Last Call Working Draft https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/index.html 15:21:18 +1 15:21:19 +1 15:21:21 +1 15:21:23 +1 15:21:23 +1 15:21:27 +1 15:21:32 +1 15:21:40 +1 15:21:44 +1 15:21:44 +1 15:21:46 +1 15:21:49 RESOLVED: Publish rdf11-mt as a Last Call Working Draft https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/index.html 15:21:53 +1 15:22:05 subtopic: Publication Process 15:22:20 Guus: Requires a number of steps, these are recorded on the wiki 15:22:36 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Tips_on_publishing_ReSpec-based_documents 15:23:02 sandro: Need to check what version of respec your using. 15:23:14 ... there is now a command line version of all those steps 15:23:20 ... little tricky to get to work 15:23:32 davidwood: Is there any documentation on this? 15:23:42 Guus: Link is now to global respec, not our local one. 15:23:47 +q 15:23:54 sandro: I'm still on vaction. 15:24:10 Concepts still uses an outdated version of ReSpec 15:24:14 Guus: It's simple enough 15:24:15 Peter, do you want to do this or should I? 15:24:15 -q 15:24:17 Just sent a mail to the list 15:24:30 sandro: there is a command line if you don't want to do the steps on the website 15:24:39 Guus: I've done it for 4 documents and done it in detail 15:24:52 davidwood: when I screw it up, I'll yell for help 15:24:58 +q 15:25:08 -1 15:25:10 -q 15:25:30 Guus: Need the editors to tell me when it's ready. 15:25:40 I'll take a look at Semantics and see what needs to be done. 15:25:43 ... and put the documents in drafts//Overview.html 15:26:16 ... will ask web master to publish these at the same time. 15:26:36 ... david and pfps will notify guus when they are ready to publish. 15:26:43 ... last call period? 15:27:00 Guus: What kind of period do we propose? 15:27:04 8 weeks? 15:27:26 PatH: Really need to be that long? 15:27:41 zakim, who is making noise? 15:27:49 Kill that damn fly 15:27:52 markus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus_Schreiber (19%), pfps (99%), Arnaud (4%) 15:27:53 zakim, who is talking? 15:28:01 zakim, mut pfps 15:28:01 I don't understand 'mut pfps', markus 15:28:03 Guus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (9%), pfps (100%) 15:28:03 zakim, mute pfps 15:28:03 Zakim, mute pfps 15:28:05 pfps should now be muted 15:28:05 pfps was already muted, davidwood 15:28:42 google voice gets into this strange problem when it has communication delays 15:28:48 sandro: min is 4 week, but can't count weeks in August, first week of September seems best. 15:29:07 pfps, did you have something to say or was it just google voice? 15:29:10 we have other stuff that is yet to be done, so there is really no reason to compress too much 15:29:11 I miht be at risk for the second week in september. 15:29:15 Guus: I think we should do first week of September.... 6th September? 15:29:30 sandro: We still need to do outreach to make sure people hear about it before vactions 15:29:39 OK 15:29:57 PROPOSED: LC period ends 2013-09-06 15:30:04 +1 15:30:07 +1 15:30:09 +1 15:30:10 +1 15:30:11 +1 15:30:17 +1 15:30:21 +1 15:30:28 RESOLVED: LC period for Concepts and Semantics ends 2013-09-06 15:30:47 Guus: davidwood and I take an action to do out reach 15:31:16 ACTION on Guus to write blog post and do out reach on publication of Concepts and Semantics 15:31:16 Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at . 15:31:21 ACTION Guus to write blog post and do out reach on publication of Concepts and Semantics 15:31:22 Created ACTION-277 - Write blog post and do out reach on publication of Concepts and Semantics [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-07-10]. 15:31:51 Topic: TriG 15:32:41 Guus: Trailing-dot discussion, this has reached concensus. 15:32:53 subtopic: ISSUE-137 15:33:01 ISSUE-137? 15:33:01 ISSUE-137 -- Should TriG be a subset of SPARQL Quad Pattern? -- raised 15:33:01 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/137 15:34:26 sandro: So my perspective preparing for semtech, noticed how close TriG and SPARQL are. There are two bits that are not the same, and I couldn't really think of how to explain why they are diffrent 15:35:02 .. the two are GRAPH keywords, and requiring {} around the default graph 15:35:13 Guus: First one is the GRAPH keyword. 15:35:17 +q 15:36:41 ack gavinc 15:36:46 manu has joined #rdf-wg 15:38:14 FWIW, the advantages of Sandro's suggestions are obvious. Are there any technical arguments against them? Technical, not procedural. 15:38:30 +q 15:38:59 Obvious? Break existing practice? 15:39:12 -q 15:39:55 q+ 15:40:12 Guus: Propose adding them as features at Risk 15:40:21 sandro: I hope we'll see comments on them 15:40:27 ack AndyS 15:41:04 -Sandro 15:41:14 AndyS: I can we be so dismisive of parser writters. We don't have any examples of {} not around default graph, we don't understand the results of these. 15:41:26 +Sandro 15:41:40 ... I don't care about the GRAPH keyword. But I don't like the issue which includes opinion 15:43:20 I would say that's a feature! :) 15:44:05 One could say, its a good idea to raise issues like this before there are any serious implementations. 15:45:26 I presume that making the { } optional would just make life harder for everyone (??) 15:46:59 making both GRAPH and {} (for default graph) optional may make things harder, 15:47:19 ... as a leading URI could be either a graph label or a subject in the default graph 15:47:32 What is the proposal for the grammar? LL(2) ? 15:49:47 ACTION Eric to create new grammar for TriG that includes optional graph keywords and make {} optional around the default graph 15:49:47 Created ACTION-278 - Create new grammar for TriG that includes optional graph keywords and make {} optional around the default graph [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-07-10]. 15:50:23 and aligns to Turtle. 15:50:40 ACTION sandro to propose text for TriG feature at risk for both GRAPH keywords and {} being optional around the default graph 15:50:40 Created ACTION-279 - Propose text for TriG feature at risk for both GRAPH keywords and {} being optional around the default graph [on Sandro Hawke - due 2013-07-10]. 15:51:09 ericP, please use the trig.bnf file that exists in hg 15:52:37 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#c13 15:52:58 ericP: I looked at all the comments on the test suite and CR comments, there are no test comments that haven't been tracked and only one that hasn't been responded too 15:53:28 ericP: Found some more non unicode characters and fixed those as well 15:53:37 pfps: does shift-ctrl-alt-s not work? 15:53:43 q? 15:54:48 PROPOSED: accept all tests in http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/ 15:54:51 pfps: suggest emailing Robin Berjeron 15:55:05 +1 15:55:10 +1 15:55:22 +1 15:55:23 +1 15:55:27 +1 15:55:31 +1 (what the heck) 15:55:37 sandro: +1 15:55:42 +1 15:55:42 +1 15:55:47 RESOLVED: accept all tests in http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/ 15:57:50 Zakim, who is speaking? 15:57:53 Zakim, who is speaking? 15:57:56 That sounds like something that should not be done in public. 15:58:00 AZ, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus_Schreiber (27%), davidwood (41%), Arnaud (5%), Sandro (70%) 15:58:12 Zakim, mute me 15:58:12 gavinc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus_Schreiber (22%), davidwood (4%), Sandro (64%), PatH (8%) 15:58:13 davidwood should now be muted 15:58:35 Zakim, mute sandro 15:58:35 Sandro should now be muted 15:58:43 ACTION: gavinc to contact rdf-wg-comments, semantic-web and submitters of test results at the bottom of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Implementations 15:58:43 Error finding 'gavinc'. You can review and register nicknames at . 15:58:57 ACTION: gavin to contact rdf-wg-comments, semantic-web and submitters of test results at the bottom of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Implementations 15:58:57 Created ACTION-280 - Contact rdf-wg-comments, semantic-web and submitters of test results at the bottom of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Implementations [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-07-10]. 16:00:55 markus: JSON-LD text was updated to say JSON-LD is based on RDF 16:01:27 Guus: waiting for agreement on consesus from pfps and JSON-LD subgroub 16:01:41 consider that a flag has been raised 16:02:09 Guus: Thanks, and ajorned. Next Week N-Triples/N-Quads, and JSON-LD and RDF-JSON 16:02:18 -Arnaud 16:02:18 -Sandro 16:02:21 -EricP 16:02:22 -davidwood 16:02:24 -PatH 16:02:25 -markus 16:02:25 -yvesr 16:02:27 -AndyS 16:02:27 -??P19 16:02:32 -Guus_Schreiber 16:02:34 bye 16:02:40 trackbot, end meeting 16:02:40 Zakim, list attendees 16:02:40 As of this point the attendees have been Guus_Schreiber, +1.540.898.aaaa, GavinC, davidwood, yvesr, AndyS, pfps, Arnaud, Sandro, EricP, markus, PatH, +1.619.663.aabb, AZ 16:02:40 bye 16:02:48 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:02:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/03-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot 16:02:49 RRSAgent, bye 16:02:49 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/03-rdf-wg-actions.rdf : 16:02:49 ACTION: gavinc to contact rdf-wg-comments, semantic-web and submitters of test results at the bottom of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Implementations [1] 16:02:49 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/03-rdf-wg-irc#T15-58-43 16:02:49 ACTION: gavin to contact rdf-wg-comments, semantic-web and submitters of test results at the bottom of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments#Implementations [2] 16:02:49 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/03-rdf-wg-irc#T15-58-57 16:02:51 -GavinC