IRC log of css on 2013-07-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:08:25 [RRSAgent]
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15:08:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/03-css-irc
15:08:31 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:08:31 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 52 minutes
15:08:35 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:08:58 [glazou]
glazou has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0061.html
15:21:10 [glenn]
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15:39:50 [krit]
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15:56:46 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:52 [Zakim]
+??P20
15:56:55 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P20 is me
15:56:55 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:58:02 [Zakim]
+Krit
15:58:07 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
15:58:31 [israelh]
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15:58:42 [SteveZ]
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15:59:20 [Zakim]
+plinss
15:59:24 [Zakim]
+??P28
15:59:30 [leif]
Zakim, I am P28
15:59:30 [Zakim]
sorry, leif, I do not see a party named 'P28'
15:59:31 [dael]
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15:59:38 [glazou]
leif, your phone is super-noisy...
15:59:40 [leif]
Zakim, I am ??P28
15:59:40 [Zakim]
+leif; got it
15:59:44 [leif]
Zakim, mute me
15:59:44 [Zakim]
leif should now be muted
15:59:53 [glazou]
yep that was your phone, thanks leif
16:00:03 [leif]
argh, I thought it would be fixed if I just muted on my end
16:00:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.610.324.aaaa
16:00:18 [leif]
time try ditch Ekiga, I think
16:00:27 [dael]
zakim, aaaa is me
16:00:28 [Zakim]
+dael; got it
16:00:28 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:00:36 [florian]
Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
16:00:36 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
16:00:45 [SimonSapin]
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16:00:58 [Zakim]
+ +93192aabb
16:01:05 [antonp]
Zakim, aabb is me
16:01:05 [Zakim]
+antonp; got it
16:01:25 [Zakim]
+Lea
16:01:50 [Zakim]
+??P53
16:01:59 [SimonSapin]
Zakim, P53 is me
16:02:00 [Zakim]
sorry, SimonSapin, I do not recognize a party named 'P53'
16:02:04 [SimonSapin]
Zakim, ??P53 is me
16:02:04 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin; got it
16:02:10 [nvdbleek]
zakim, code?
16:02:11 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
16:02:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.619.846.aacc
16:02:30 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:02:30 [Zakim]
+fantasai
16:02:43 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (38%), [IPcaller] (21%), antonp (9%), ??P59 (60%)
16:02:59 [Zakim]
+nvdbleek
16:03:03 [nvdbleek]
zakim, mute me
16:03:04 [Zakim]
nvdbleek should now be muted
16:03:11 [dael]
dael has joined #css
16:03:14 [Zakim]
+??P9
16:03:17 [Zakim]
-??P9
16:03:50 [Zakim]
+??P9
16:03:57 [glenn]
zakim, ??p9 is me
16:03:57 [Zakim]
+glenn; got it
16:04:16 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
16:04:22 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
16:04:39 [JohnJansen]
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16:04:56 [smfr]
smfr has joined #css
16:05:03 [jerenkrantz_]
jerenkrantz_ has joined #css
16:05:16 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:05:16 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
16:05:19 [oyvind]
oyvind has joined #css
16:05:29 [Zakim]
+ +1.212.318.aadd
16:05:42 [SimonSapin]
ScribeNick: SimonSapin
16:05:47 [Zakim]
+smfr
16:06:07 [Zakim]
+ +1.212.318.aaee
16:06:19 [jerenkrantz_]
Zakim, aaee is jerenkrantz
16:06:19 [Zakim]
+jerenkrantz; got it
16:06:21 [SimonSapin]
Topic: CSSMatrix review
16:06:22 [krit]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/matrix/index.html
16:06:37 [koji]
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16:06:45 [SimonSapin]
krit: SVGMatrix is 2D. With transforms, we need 3D
16:07:07 [c_palmer]
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16:07:08 [SimonSapin]
krit: discussed having a CSSMatrix interface, unified between specs
16:07:24 [SimonSapin]
krit: asking for FPWD. Concerns/discussion to the ML
16:07:29 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller.a]
16:07:37 [koji]
zakim, ipcalle.a is me
16:07:37 [Zakim]
sorry, koji, I do not recognize a party named 'ipcalle.a'
16:07:39 [SimonSapin]
Topic: I18N / Text issues
16:07:46 [Zakim]
+dbaron
16:07:47 [koji]
zakim, ipcaller.a is me
16:07:48 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
16:07:49 [Zakim]
+??P73
16:07:52 [SimonSapin]
plinss: follow up on text-align-last
16:08:03 [TabAtkins]
zakim, ??p73 is me
16:08:03 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
16:08:43 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: ??? is not on the call, defer
16:08:52 [smfr]
s/???/rossen
16:09:03 [SimonSapin]
Topic: Writing modes
16:09:13 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: ML discussion with jdagget
16:09:33 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: jdagget’s proposal for exact rules of resizing. Spec says UA-defined
16:09:52 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: Put his algo as an example, eg. examples of things that could go wrong
16:10:03 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: but leave normative text as UA-defined, leave leeway
16:10:15 [Zakim]
+??P75
16:10:22 [Rossen]
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16:10:27 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: UA could give better results than this exact algorithm
16:10:41 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: Koji and I want to allow better results
16:11:08 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: but want to make sure it’s at least "good". Having an example algo is a good way to do that
16:11:27 [SimonSapin]
florian: how to add controls in future levels on UA-defined behavior?
16:11:55 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: Plan is to have text-compression-switch, where the default is auto
16:12:16 [SimonSapin]
florian: some switches match auto
16:12:47 [SimonSapin]
florian: worried about "do what you want auto", if one UA is dominant, hopefully it’s not too broken
16:13:06 [SimonSapin]
florian: content will depend on the de-facto meaning of auto
16:13:25 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: if we have an example in the spec, most UAs will follow that and then try to do better
16:13:27 [Zakim]
+Bert
16:13:30 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: example is not complicated
16:13:53 [SimonSapin]
florian: would be nice to have tests for this non-normative description
16:14:13 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: we can have "may" tests
16:14:26 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: tests specific to OpenType, specific fonts
16:14:48 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: with clear examples, impl will follow
16:15:29 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: concern: dealing with 2 things. auto is used to do the right thing for the normal case, bunch of features separately
16:15:44 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: example: full-size latin letter different than latin letters, without markup
16:15:54 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: there, clear algorithm
16:16:05 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: here, auto is you can do possibly better than this
16:16:10 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: different use of auto
16:16:18 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: not sure you really want auto
16:16:24 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: it is automagic
16:16:39 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: users complain without the magic
16:16:52 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: people want to do what the users expect
16:17:09 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: to way to have this is normative text and test cases
16:17:24 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: examples are nice but … we trip over automagic
16:17:26 [tantek]
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16:17:48 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: don’t expect lock-in in this case
16:18:04 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: if you do a good job, no need to match against anything else
16:18:17 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: if it looks bad, you’re just gonna not use the feature
16:18:27 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: no option to tweak the layout
16:18:50 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: enable tatechyu?? or not
16:18:57 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: no effect on the rest of the layout
16:19:11 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: still uncomfortable about undefined automagic
16:19:46 [SimonSapin]
koji: discussing rendering quality, doesn’t matter much
16:20:00 [SimonSapin]
florian: little uncomfortable, but can go with this
16:20:21 [SimonSapin]
plinss: jdagget seems to have concerns with this. Can you summarize?
16:20:41 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: he’s concerned that impl. will do worse because the can normatively
16:20:54 [SimonSapin]
s/the/they/
16:21:05 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: we want examples of "don’t do this"
16:21:18 [SimonSapin]
plinss: normative restrictions? "Can do better, but don’t do this"
16:21:28 [SimonSapin]
florian: limited normative requirements
16:21:35 [SimonSapin]
plinss: problem is defining "better"
16:21:47 [SimonSapin]
plinss: objections?
16:22:21 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: proposal is: normative prose says "UA-defined how the compression happens, but must transform full-width and ??? before you do any scaling"
16:22:33 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: then add an example algo
16:22:40 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: and suggestions to do better
16:23:02 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: require transforming at least full-width
16:23:24 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: example of what people expect. Can do simpler, can do smarter, but don’t do this that looks bad
16:23:35 [SimonSapin]
RESOLVED: accepted the above proposal
16:23:45 [SimonSapin]
Topic: Text decoration
16:23:48 [darktears]
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16:23:55 [SimonSapin]
plinss: issue: making line positioning undefined
16:24:01 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: discussed at F2F
16:24:47 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: CSS21 says "position and thickness is undefined. May consider font info of the descendant that you are underlining, but not required. Can have one non-broken line"
16:24:57 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: 2 interpretations
16:25:13 [SimonSapin]
(missed them)
16:25:20 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: either way, consider the descedants
16:25:33 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: in L3, tighten up prose
16:25:56 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: ARIA concern when strike-through doesn’t go through the text
16:26:05 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: what to consider or not, eg. skip vertical-alin
16:26:52 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: dbaron against. Complicated, and bunch of links that should be the same up one containing some super-text, off by a few px
16:27:00 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: F2F proposal: ???
16:27:14 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: works poorly for ARIA’s concern case
16:27:34 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: underline can cut through the text, when that text becomes bigger
16:27:42 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: I think this is worse than a few px off
16:27:53 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: don’t want to require this behavior
16:28:12 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: underline should be on one side of the text alway IMO, not cut
16:28:16 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: in vertical text
16:28:29 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: For this level, no consensus, undefined like 2.1
16:28:36 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: deal with it in L4
16:28:49 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: fine with me, with explanation why
16:29:03 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: ok, specifics?
16:29:12 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: the two rationales that you just said
16:29:29 [SimonSapin]
plinss: opinions?
16:29:49 [SimonSapin]
RESOLVED: text-decoration line thickness and position undefined in L3
16:29:56 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: 2 more issues
16:30:00 [SteveZ]
What can we do to resolve this in Level 4
16:30:18 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: shadows. Text underlined, separate shadow? Or composite together and shadow that
16:30:31 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: different with semi-transparant shadow color
16:31:17 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: I think we want the shadow to be drawn at once, combined
16:31:23 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: that’s a lot more impl. work
16:32:02 [hober]
Zakim, aacc is me
16:32:02 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
16:32:15 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: I don’t know that we define it for text without shadows, but should be the same
16:32:33 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
16:32:45 [SimonSapin]
smfr: Within the same text run, one shadow
16:32:51 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:32:55 [teoli]
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16:32:56 [SimonSapin]
smfr: accross spans maybe not
16:33:08 [SimonSapin]
smfr: for the underline, looks nicer if painted as one
16:33:30 [SimonSapin]
leaverou: I think composited shadows make more sense, but can also be achieved with filters
16:33:44 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: I think this should be left undefined at this level
16:33:52 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: ok with that
16:34:01 [SimonSapin]
leaverou: what do browsers do?
16:34:11 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: (missed)
16:34:26 [SimonSapin]
leaverou: what if letters overlap?
16:34:40 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: not sure, depends on whether they have the same font
16:34:54 [SimonSapin]
leaverou: overlapping letters are more important
16:35:15 [SimonSapin]
florian: how expensive is it?
16:35:19 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: don’t know
16:35:34 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: text-decoration always overlaps … or maybe not
16:36:00 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: sort of decision where the group makes a resolution that requires impl. to trow out code and start again
16:36:12 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: needs more consideration that 3 min on a telecon
16:36:27 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: should research what impl. do
16:36:28 [SteveZ]
+1 for David's point
16:36:46 [teoli]
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16:36:48 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: if we have interop on one thing and add "should" on something else, are we ever gonna get it?
16:36:56 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: anyone have a quick test case?
16:37:22 [SimonSapin]
krit: need images from different browsers
16:37:32 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: how soon do we need an answer?
16:37:47 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: leave it undefined at the moment, and come back later
16:38:05 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: what does Illustrator does?
16:38:08 [SimonSapin]
krit: have to check
16:38:20 [SimonSapin]
s/does/do/
16:38:29 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: need testing before deciding anything
16:38:43 [SimonSapin]
plinss: to we want to go to CR or wait on this?
16:38:51 [leaverou]
very quick testcase I just made: http://dabblet.com/gist/5920266
16:38:56 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: can we add "should" and mark it at-risk?
16:39:18 [SimonSapin]
florian: typically not at-risk for changing our minds, rather for lack of impl
16:39:46 [SimonSapin]
florian: if we put the should, it encourages ppl to follow it. If we have interop, it’s bad to break it
16:39:57 [dbaron]
leaverou, you should also try (a) mixed LTR and RTL text within the same element and (b) an element boundary with a color change (c) an element boundary without a color change
16:39:59 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: can we get research by next week?
16:40:12 [SimonSapin]
leaverou: looks like every browser overlap ???
16:40:29 [leaverou]
yes dbaron, it was a one minute thing :)
16:40:39 [SimonSapin]
florian: old Opera makes the overlapped letters darker
16:40:48 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: Gecko on Linux does not overlap
16:41:03 [fantasai]
?^: If there's a should, then it encourages implementations to work towards that. if we already have interop on the opposite, then that encourages *less* interop
16:41:17 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: might depend on platform-specific text rendering
16:41:35 [SimonSapin]
florian: Presto doing it wrong, but not relevant anymore
16:41:49 [SimonSapin]
fantasai, it’s fine :)
16:41:58 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:42:01 [fantasai]
plinss: path forward?
16:42:01 [SimonSapin]
plinss: leave it undefined?
16:42:07 [fantasai]
smfr: think we have to leave it undefined
16:42:18 [fantasai]
fantasai: works for me
16:42:24 [fantasai]
rossen: it's ok
16:42:33 [fantasai]
plinss: ok, undefined in L3
16:42:40 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: undefined in L3
16:43:20 [fantasai]
fantasai: dbaron raised an issue on whether alphabetic is needed for text-underline-position. I don't know, so have no oinion.
16:43:27 [fantasai]
dbaron: who thinks it is necessary?
16:43:30 [teoli_]
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16:43:42 [fantasai]
szilles: my response is, what are we objecting to in alphabetic?
16:43:53 [fantasai]
dbaron: Wasn't clear to me how to implement this stuff
16:44:25 [fantasai]
dbaron: or which value matched existing implementations
16:44:30 [smfr]
can we have a url for this discussion?
16:44:40 [fantasai]
dbaron: also there's issues with using font metrics for underlining
16:44:51 [fantasai]
dbaron: if you use the underlining metrics from the font, which value of text-underline-position is it?
16:45:02 [fantasai]
dbaron: if you have a CJK font, which underline are you using?
16:45:09 [fantasai]
szilles: CJK fonts usually have two sets of metrics
16:45:23 [SimonSapin]
smfr, I don’t find it from the minutes :/
16:45:23 [fantasai]
szilles: You can choose the dominant baseline in a table based
16:45:53 [fantasai]
fantasai: I thought fonts had various baselines, but only one underline position metric
16:46:05 [dbaron]
smfr, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-decor-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-6
16:46:06 [koji]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0139.html
16:46:30 [fantasai]
szilles: you may be right. I think in CJK fonts, underlines are lower than alphabetic, because CJK characters descend lower than alphabetic baseline
16:46:41 [fantasai]
szilles: feedback from Adobe Typography was, use the font baseline if it's there.
16:46:51 [fantasai]
dbaron: So question then is, which value in CSS spec corresponds to that?
16:46:58 [fantasai]
s/that/use the font metrics/
16:47:11 [fantasai]
dbaron: My problem with this spec is, it's hard for me to understand how to implement
16:47:20 [fantasai]
szilles: I understand. Happy to work with fantasai to fix that.
16:47:38 [fantasai]
koji: spec says alphabetic is based on font emtrics
16:49:04 [fantasai]
fantasai: [describes original intention of values, which had nothing to do with whether to use font metrics]
16:49:28 [fantasai]
fantasai: If you're ignoring font metrics, spec is very simple to implement.
16:49:41 [fantasai]
fantasai: If you're using font metrics, then have problem that fonts aren't clear on what their metrics represent
16:50:41 [fantasai]
fantasai: Because some fonts think the underline metric represents the alphabetic position, and others think it represents the accounting position.
16:51:00 [fantasai]
fantasai: Webkit, for example, doesn't use font metrics. Just picks a position below the alphabetic line.
16:51:12 [fantasai]
szilles: bad typography
16:51:22 [fantasai]
szilles: [... some issue of font metrics ...]
16:51:30 [fantasai]
szilles: So dbaron's point was, how do I implement what's there?
16:51:59 [fantasai]
dbaron: Part of reason to drop alphabetic is that there's nothing left in spec that's unclear
16:52:05 [BradK]
BradK has joined #CSS
16:52:14 [fantasai]
szilles: But doesn't auto ask for alphabetic position?
16:52:24 [fantasai]
szilles: I'm not attached to alphabetic value, want auto to do something reasonable
16:52:27 [BradK]
Sorry I'm late. What did I miss?
16:52:40 [BradK]
jk
16:52:41 [Zakim]
-Krit
16:52:44 [fantasai]
dbaron: auto is vague enough that we can just keep our current implementation
16:53:06 [Zakim]
+Krit
16:53:25 [fantasai]
florian: Is it bad to disallow looking at font metrics?
16:53:30 [fantasai]
szilles: Yes, that is bad.
16:53:52 [Zakim]
+BradK
16:54:00 [fantasai]
dbaron: also, what is the use case for alphabetic?
16:54:15 [fantasai]
szilles: seems to be same as auto
16:54:20 [fantasai]
dbaron: for the cases where you would want it, at least
16:54:42 [fantasai]
szilles: So, you're reasonably happy with current definition of auto
16:55:16 [fantasai]
szilles: ...
16:55:35 [fantasai]
dbaron: alphabetic is same thing as auto in cases where you want it, but also unclear how to use font metrics
16:55:59 [florian]
s/disallow looking at font metrics/disallow looking at font metrics for non-auto values/
16:56:15 [fantasai]
fantasai: Current spec has blanket statement for using font metrics wherever appropriate
16:56:51 [tantek]
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16:56:52 [fantasai]
szilles: Can we come up with a definition of appropriate?
16:56:59 [fantasai]
fantasai: Don't really want to do that...
16:57:12 [fantasai]
fantasai: Maybe drop alphabetic, and tackle that in L4 if someone wants to define it for OpenType
16:57:43 [fantasai]
fantasai: "appropriate" allows, e.g. blacklisting metrics of bad fonts
16:57:57 [fantasai]
plinss: What does it mean for vertical text
16:59:03 [fantasai]
fantasai: vertical text has an alphabetic baseline; should be defined in writing modes
16:59:13 [fantasai]
fantasai: text decoration spec is in terms of over/under (relative) directions
16:59:17 [fantasai]
fantasai: so no issue here
16:59:26 [fantasai]
szilles: should auto do the right thing in vertical text?
16:59:54 [Zakim]
-Krit
17:00:30 [Zakim]
- +1.212.318.aadd
17:00:48 [fantasai]
fantasai: Interesting question. If you have sideways Latin in vertical orientation, want the underline to look just like in horiziontal text
17:00:54 [fantasai]
fantasai: but if typeset upright, want to shift it over
17:01:06 [fantasai]
fantasai: similar problem to CJK in horizontal, want to make sure it shifts down enough
17:01:24 [fantasai]
fantasai: so maybe add examples to the spec showing things UA needs to consider...
17:01:33 [fantasai]
plinss: So, do we want to drop alphabetic?
17:01:36 [fantasai]
fantasai: think so
17:01:44 [fantasai]
szilles: now that I understand dbaron's issues, makes sense to me
17:01:50 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Drop alphabetic
17:02:00 [fantasai]
plinss: Move to CR?
17:02:08 [fantasai]
fantasai: Have to make edits, but that does close all the issues
17:02:54 [Zakim]
-dael
17:03:00 [fantasai]
...
17:03:14 [fantasai]
szilles: My understanding of our decisions today was, take conservative approach, don't define anything new
17:03:20 [Zakim]
-hober
17:03:21 [fantasai]
fantasai: Yep, so no need for another LC
17:03:27 [Zakim]
-dbaron
17:03:28 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
17:03:29 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Take CSS3 Text Decoration to LC
17:03:30 [Zakim]
-leif
17:03:32 [Zakim]
-BradK
17:03:33 [leif]
leif has left #css
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-glazou
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-Bert
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-nvdbleek
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-antonp
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-fantasai
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-??P75
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-Lea
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-glenn
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-smfr
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-koji
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-SimonSapin
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-plinss
17:04:07 [Zakim]
-TabAtkins
17:06:56 [smfr]
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17:11:53 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
17:16:55 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, jerenkrantz, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:16:55 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:16:55 [Zakim]
Attendees were glazou, Krit, plinss, leif, +1.610.324.aaaa, dael, florian, +93192aabb, antonp, Lea, SimonSapin, +1.619.846.aacc, fantasai, nvdbleek, glenn, SteveZ, JohnJansen,
17:16:58 [Zakim]
... +1.212.318.aadd, smfr, +1.212.318.aaee, jerenkrantz, [IPcaller], dbaron, koji, TabAtkins, Bert, hober, BradK
18:13:31 [SimonSapin]
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21:10:04 [fantasai]
great, www-style-request decided to unsubscribe me from www-style
21:11:02 [hober]
wat
21:11:10 [fantasai]
why am I responsible for the fact that bradlit@windows.microsoft.com bounces email?
21:11:17 [fantasai]
Bert?
21:11:25 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: yay, same as me in Tokyo!
21:11:42 [fantasai]
?
21:12:17 [fantasai]
guess it's time to go splice MBOX files...
21:12:18 [fantasai]
:/
21:12:49 [SimonSapin]
The same thing happened to me, I got unsubscribed because someone (I think the same address) bounces
21:13:19 [TabAtkins]
How weird!
21:13:22 [SimonSapin]
plh added my address to some whitelist, and I reported the issue to sysreq
21:13:29 [SimonSapin]
but apparently it’s not fixed yet
21:13:43 [fantasai]
can we unsubscribe the address responsible?
21:15:14 [SimonSapin]
probably
21:15:37 [SimonSapin]
but we should also fix the W3C MTA kicking the wrong person out on bounces
21:22:02 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: there is a thunderbird extension for importing mbox files
21:22:50 [SimonSapin]
I did that with files from the archive, eyeballed the date range I was missing, and copied the messages using thunderbird
21:23:03 [SimonSapin]
I wouldn’t mess with thuderbird’s storage using other tools
21:23:21 [fantasai]
oh, yeah
21:23:42 [fantasai]
I forgot how I usually do this... creating a new mbox and using TB's move functions :)
21:23:49 [fantasai]
that's much easier
21:23:51 [SimonSapin]
yeah
21:23:59 [fantasai]
well, all spliced already
21:24:00 [fantasai]
it should be okay
21:28:28 [fantasai]
w00t, all minutes posted!!!!!!
21:28:56 [TabAtkins]
Woo!
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23:48:16 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Preprocessor now distinguishes between value definitions and term definitions, so you can, for example, have both <dfn>initial</dfn> and <dfn>''initial''</dfn> in the document. It'll auto-link appropriately in both cases.
23:48:43 [TabAtkins]
Long-weekend project is getting the cross-spec xrefs working.
23:49:12 [TabAtkins]
(<i>initial</i> links to the first one, ''initiall'' links to the second one)