15:08:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:08:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/03-css-irc
15:08:31 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:08:31 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 52 minutes
15:08:35 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:08:58 <glazou> glazou has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0061.html
15:21:10 <glenn> glenn has joined #css
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15:56:46 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:52 <Zakim> +??P20
15:56:55 <glazou> Zakim, ??P20 is me
15:56:55 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:58:02 <Zakim> +Krit
15:58:07 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:58:31 <israelh> israelh has joined #CSS
15:58:42 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
15:59:20 <Zakim> +plinss
15:59:24 <Zakim> +??P28
15:59:30 <leif> Zakim, I am P28
15:59:30 <Zakim> sorry, leif, I do not see a party named 'P28'
15:59:31 <dael> dael has joined #css
15:59:38 <glazou> leif, your phone is super-noisy...
15:59:40 <leif> Zakim, I am ??P28
15:59:40 <Zakim> +leif; got it
15:59:44 <leif> Zakim, mute me
15:59:44 <Zakim> leif should now be muted
15:59:53 <glazou> yep that was your phone, thanks leif
16:00:03 <leif> argh, I thought it would be fixed if I just muted on my end
16:00:16 <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aaaa
16:00:18 <leif> time try ditch Ekiga, I think
16:00:27 <dael> zakim, aaaa is me
16:00:28 <Zakim> +dael; got it
16:00:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:36 <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
16:00:36 <Zakim> +florian; got it
16:00:45 <SimonSapin> SimonSapin has joined #css
16:00:58 <Zakim> + +93192aabb
16:01:05 <antonp> Zakim, aabb is me
16:01:05 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:01:25 <Zakim> +Lea
16:01:50 <Zakim> +??P53
16:01:59 <SimonSapin> Zakim, P53 is me
16:02:00 <Zakim> sorry, SimonSapin, I do not recognize a party named 'P53'
16:02:04 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P53 is me
16:02:04 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:02:10 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
16:02:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
16:02:12 <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aacc
16:02:30 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
16:02:30 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:02:43 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (38%), [IPcaller] (21%), antonp (9%), ??P59 (60%)
16:02:59 <Zakim> +nvdbleek
16:03:03 <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
16:03:04 <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
16:03:11 <dael> dael has joined #css
16:03:14 <Zakim> +??P9
16:03:17 <Zakim> -??P9
16:03:50 <Zakim> +??P9
16:03:57 <glenn> zakim, ??p9 is me
16:03:57 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
16:04:16 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:04:22 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:04:39 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #CSS
16:04:56 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:05:03 <jerenkrantz_> jerenkrantz_ has joined #css
16:05:16 <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:05:16 <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
16:05:19 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
16:05:29 <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aadd
16:05:42 <SimonSapin> ScribeNick: SimonSapin
16:05:47 <Zakim> +smfr
16:06:07 <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aaee
16:06:19 <jerenkrantz_> Zakim, aaee is jerenkrantz
16:06:19 <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
16:06:21 <SimonSapin> Topic: CSSMatrix review
16:06:22 <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/matrix/index.html
16:06:37 <koji> koji has joined #css
16:06:45 <SimonSapin> krit: SVGMatrix is 2D. With transforms, we need 3D
16:07:07 <c_palmer> c_palmer has joined #css
16:07:08 <SimonSapin> krit: discussed having a CSSMatrix interface, unified between specs
16:07:24 <SimonSapin> krit: asking for FPWD. Concerns/discussion to the ML
16:07:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:07:37 <koji> zakim, ipcalle.a is me
16:07:37 <Zakim> sorry, koji, I do not recognize a party named 'ipcalle.a'
16:07:39 <SimonSapin> Topic: I18N / Text issues
16:07:46 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:07:47 <koji> zakim, ipcaller.a is me
16:07:48 <Zakim> +koji; got it
16:07:49 <Zakim> +??P73
16:07:52 <SimonSapin> plinss: follow up on text-align-last
16:08:03 <TabAtkins> zakim, ??p73 is me
16:08:03 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
16:08:43 <SimonSapin> fantasai: ??? is not on the call, defer
16:08:52 <smfr> s/???/rossen
16:09:03 <SimonSapin> Topic: Writing modes
16:09:13 <SimonSapin> fantasai: ML discussion with jdagget
16:09:33 <SimonSapin> fantasai: jdagget’s proposal for exact rules of resizing. Spec says UA-defined
16:09:52 <SimonSapin> fantasai: Put his algo as an example, eg. examples of things that could go wrong
16:10:03 <SimonSapin> fantasai: but leave normative text as UA-defined, leave leeway
16:10:15 <Zakim> +??P75
16:10:22 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
16:10:27 <SimonSapin> fantasai: UA could give better results than this exact algorithm
16:10:41 <SimonSapin> fantasai: Koji and I want to allow better results
16:11:08 <SimonSapin> fantasai: but want to make sure it’s at least "good". Having an example algo is a good way to do that
16:11:27 <SimonSapin> florian: how to add controls in future levels on UA-defined behavior?
16:11:55 <SimonSapin> fantasai: Plan is to have text-compression-switch, where the default is auto
16:12:16 <SimonSapin> florian: some switches match auto
16:12:47 <SimonSapin> florian: worried about "do what you want auto", if one UA is dominant, hopefully it’s not too broken
16:13:06 <SimonSapin> florian: content will depend on the de-facto meaning of auto
16:13:25 <SimonSapin> fantasai: if we have an example in the spec, most UAs will follow that and then try to do better
16:13:27 <Zakim> +Bert
16:13:30 <SimonSapin> fantasai: example is not complicated
16:13:53 <SimonSapin> florian: would be nice to have tests for this non-normative description
16:14:13 <SimonSapin> fantasai: we can have "may" tests
16:14:26 <SimonSapin> fantasai: tests specific to OpenType, specific fonts
16:14:48 <SimonSapin> fantasai: with clear examples, impl will follow
16:15:29 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: concern: dealing with 2 things. auto is used to do the right thing for the normal case, bunch of features separately
16:15:44 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: example: full-size latin letter different than latin letters, without markup
16:15:54 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: there, clear algorithm
16:16:05 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: here, auto is you can do possibly better than this
16:16:10 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: different use of auto
16:16:18 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: not sure you really want auto
16:16:24 <SimonSapin> fantasai: it is automagic
16:16:39 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: users complain without the magic
16:16:52 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: people want to do what the users expect
16:17:09 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: to way to have this is normative text and test cases
16:17:24 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: examples are nice but … we trip over automagic
16:17:26 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:17:48 <SimonSapin> fantasai: don’t expect lock-in in this case
16:18:04 <SimonSapin> fantasai: if you do a good job, no need to match against anything else
16:18:17 <SimonSapin> fantasai: if it looks bad, you’re just gonna not use the feature
16:18:27 <SimonSapin> fantasai: no option to tweak the layout
16:18:50 <SimonSapin> fantasai: enable tatechyu?? or not
16:18:57 <SimonSapin> fantasai: no effect on the rest of the layout
16:19:11 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: still uncomfortable about undefined automagic
16:19:46 <SimonSapin> koji: discussing rendering quality, doesn’t matter much
16:20:00 <SimonSapin> florian: little uncomfortable, but can go with this
16:20:21 <SimonSapin> plinss: jdagget seems to have concerns with this. Can you summarize?
16:20:41 <SimonSapin> fantasai: he’s concerned that impl. will do worse because the can normatively
16:20:54 <SimonSapin> s/the/they/
16:21:05 <SimonSapin> fantasai: we want examples of "don’t do this"
16:21:18 <SimonSapin> plinss: normative restrictions? "Can do better, but don’t do this"
16:21:28 <SimonSapin> florian: limited normative requirements
16:21:35 <SimonSapin> plinss: problem is defining "better"
16:21:47 <SimonSapin> plinss: objections?
16:22:21 <SimonSapin> fantasai: proposal is: normative prose says "UA-defined how the compression happens, but must transform full-width and ??? before you do any scaling"
16:22:33 <SimonSapin> fantasai: then add an example algo
16:22:40 <SimonSapin> fantasai: and suggestions to do better
16:23:02 <SimonSapin> fantasai: require transforming at least full-width
16:23:24 <SimonSapin> fantasai: example of what people expect. Can do simpler, can do smarter, but don’t do this that looks bad
16:23:35 <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: accepted the above proposal
16:23:45 <SimonSapin> Topic: Text decoration
16:23:48 <darktears> darktears has joined #css
16:23:55 <SimonSapin> plinss: issue: making line positioning undefined
16:24:01 <SimonSapin> fantasai: discussed at F2F
16:24:47 <SimonSapin> fantasai: CSS21 says "position and thickness is undefined. May consider font info of the descendant that you are underlining, but not required. Can have one non-broken line"
16:24:57 <SimonSapin> fantasai: 2 interpretations
16:25:13 <SimonSapin> (missed them)
16:25:20 <SimonSapin> fantasai: either way, consider the descedants
16:25:33 <SimonSapin> fantasai: in L3, tighten up prose
16:25:56 <SimonSapin> fantasai: ARIA concern when strike-through doesn’t go through the text
16:26:05 <SimonSapin> fantasai: what to consider or not, eg. skip vertical-alin
16:26:52 <SimonSapin> fantasai: dbaron against. Complicated, and bunch of links that should be the same up one containing some super-text, off by a few px
16:27:00 <SimonSapin> fantasai: F2F proposal: ???
16:27:14 <SimonSapin> fantasai: works poorly for ARIA’s concern case
16:27:34 <SimonSapin> fantasai: underline can cut through the text, when that text becomes bigger
16:27:42 <SimonSapin> fantasai: I think this is worse than a few px off
16:27:53 <SimonSapin> fantasai: don’t want to require this behavior
16:28:12 <SimonSapin> fantasai: underline should be on one side of the text alway IMO, not cut
16:28:16 <SimonSapin> fantasai: in vertical text
16:28:29 <SimonSapin> fantasai: For this level, no consensus, undefined like 2.1
16:28:36 <SimonSapin> fantasai: deal with it in L4
16:28:49 <SimonSapin> dbaron: fine with me, with explanation why
16:29:03 <SimonSapin> fantasai: ok, specifics?
16:29:12 <SimonSapin> dbaron: the two rationales that you just said
16:29:29 <SimonSapin> plinss: opinions?
16:29:49 <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: text-decoration line thickness and position undefined in L3
16:29:56 <SimonSapin> fantasai: 2 more issues
16:30:00 <SteveZ> What can we do to resolve this in Level 4
16:30:18 <SimonSapin> fantasai: shadows. Text underlined, separate shadow? Or composite together and shadow that
16:30:31 <SimonSapin> fantasai: different with semi-transparant shadow color
16:31:17 <SimonSapin> fantasai: I think we want the shadow to be drawn at once, combined
16:31:23 <SimonSapin> dbaron: that’s a lot more impl. work
16:32:02 <hober> Zakim, aacc is me
16:32:02 <Zakim> +hober; got it
16:32:15 <SimonSapin> dbaron: I don’t know that we define it for text without shadows, but should be the same
16:32:33 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
16:32:45 <SimonSapin> smfr: Within the same text run, one shadow
16:32:51 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:32:55 <teoli> teoli has joined #css
16:32:56 <SimonSapin> smfr: accross spans maybe not
16:33:08 <SimonSapin> smfr: for the underline, looks nicer if painted as one
16:33:30 <SimonSapin> leaverou: I think composited shadows make more sense, but can also be achieved with filters
16:33:44 <SimonSapin> dbaron: I think this should be left undefined at this level
16:33:52 <SimonSapin> fantasai: ok with that
16:34:01 <SimonSapin> leaverou: what do browsers do?
16:34:11 <SimonSapin> dbaron: (missed)
16:34:26 <SimonSapin> leaverou: what if letters overlap?
16:34:40 <SimonSapin> dbaron: not sure, depends on whether they have the same font
16:34:54 <SimonSapin> leaverou: overlapping letters are more important
16:35:15 <SimonSapin> florian: how expensive is it?
16:35:19 <SimonSapin> dbaron: don’t know
16:35:34 <SimonSapin> fantasai: text-decoration always overlaps … or maybe not
16:36:00 <SimonSapin> dbaron: sort of decision where the group makes a resolution that requires impl. to trow out code and start again
16:36:12 <SimonSapin> dbaron: needs more consideration that 3 min on a telecon
16:36:27 <SimonSapin> dbaron: should research what impl. do
16:36:28 <SteveZ> +1 for David's point
16:36:46 <teoli> teoli has joined #css
16:36:48 <SimonSapin> dbaron: if we have interop on one thing and add "should" on something else, are we ever gonna get it?
16:36:56 <SimonSapin> Rossen: anyone have a quick test case?
16:37:22 <SimonSapin> krit: need images from different browsers
16:37:32 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: how soon do we need an answer?
16:37:47 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: leave it undefined at the moment, and come back later
16:38:05 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: what does Illustrator does?
16:38:08 <SimonSapin> krit: have to check
16:38:20 <SimonSapin> s/does/do/
16:38:29 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: need testing before deciding anything
16:38:43 <SimonSapin> plinss: to we want to go to CR or wait on this?
16:38:51 <leaverou> very quick testcase I just made: http://dabblet.com/gist/5920266
16:38:56 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: can we add "should" and mark it at-risk?
16:39:18 <SimonSapin> florian: typically not at-risk for changing our minds, rather for lack of impl
16:39:46 <SimonSapin> florian: if we put the should, it encourages ppl to follow it. If we have interop, it’s bad to break it
16:39:57 <dbaron> leaverou, you should also try (a) mixed LTR and RTL text within the same element and (b) an element boundary with a color change (c) an element boundary without a color change
16:39:59 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: can we get research by next week?
16:40:12 <SimonSapin> leaverou: looks like every browser overlap ???
16:40:29 <leaverou> yes dbaron, it was a one minute thing :)
16:40:39 <SimonSapin> florian: old Opera makes the overlapped letters darker
16:40:48 <SimonSapin> dbaron: Gecko on Linux does not overlap
16:41:03 <fantasai> ?^: If there's a should, then it encourages implementations to work towards that. if we already have interop on the opposite, then that encourages *less* interop
16:41:17 <SimonSapin> dbaron: might depend on platform-specific text rendering
16:41:35 <SimonSapin> florian: Presto doing it wrong, but not relevant anymore
16:41:49 <SimonSapin> fantasai, it’s fine :)
16:41:58 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:42:01 <fantasai> plinss: path forward?
16:42:01 <SimonSapin> plinss: leave it undefined?
16:42:07 <fantasai> smfr: think we have to leave it undefined
16:42:18 <fantasai> fantasai: works for me
16:42:24 <fantasai> rossen: it's ok
16:42:33 <fantasai> plinss: ok, undefined in L3
16:42:40 <fantasai> RESOLVED: undefined in L3
16:43:20 <fantasai> fantasai: dbaron raised an issue on whether alphabetic is needed for text-underline-position. I don't know, so have no oinion.
16:43:27 <fantasai> dbaron: who thinks it is necessary?
16:43:30 <teoli_> teoli_ has joined #css
16:43:42 <fantasai> szilles: my response is, what are we objecting to in alphabetic?
16:43:53 <fantasai> dbaron: Wasn't clear to me how to implement this stuff
16:44:25 <fantasai> dbaron: or which value matched existing implementations
16:44:30 <smfr> can we have a url for this discussion?
16:44:40 <fantasai> dbaron: also there's issues with using font metrics for underlining
16:44:51 <fantasai> dbaron: if you use the underlining metrics from the font, which value of text-underline-position is it?
16:45:02 <fantasai> dbaron: if you have a CJK font, which underline are you using?
16:45:09 <fantasai> szilles: CJK fonts usually have two sets of metrics
16:45:23 <SimonSapin> smfr, I don’t find it from the minutes :/
16:45:23 <fantasai> szilles: You can choose the dominant baseline in a table based
16:45:53 <fantasai> fantasai: I thought fonts had various baselines, but only one underline position metric
16:46:05 <dbaron> smfr, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-decor-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-6
16:46:06 <koji> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0139.html
16:46:30 <fantasai> szilles: you may be right. I think in CJK fonts, underlines are lower than alphabetic, because CJK characters descend lower than alphabetic baseline
16:46:41 <fantasai> szilles: feedback from Adobe Typography was, use the font baseline if it's there.
16:46:51 <fantasai> dbaron: So question then is, which value in CSS spec corresponds to that?
16:46:58 <fantasai> s/that/use the font metrics/
16:47:11 <fantasai> dbaron: My problem with this spec is, it's hard for me to understand how to implement
16:47:20 <fantasai> szilles: I understand. Happy to work with fantasai to fix that.
16:47:38 <fantasai> koji: spec says alphabetic is based on font emtrics
16:49:04 <fantasai> fantasai: [describes original intention of values, which had nothing to do with whether to use font metrics]
16:49:28 <fantasai> fantasai: If you're ignoring font metrics, spec is very simple to implement.
16:49:41 <fantasai> fantasai: If you're using font metrics, then have problem that fonts aren't clear on what their metrics represent
16:50:41 <fantasai> fantasai: Because some fonts think the underline metric represents the alphabetic position, and others think it represents the accounting position.
16:51:00 <fantasai> fantasai: Webkit, for example, doesn't use font metrics. Just picks a position below the alphabetic line.
16:51:12 <fantasai> szilles: bad typography
16:51:22 <fantasai> szilles: [... some issue of font metrics ...]
16:51:30 <fantasai> szilles: So dbaron's point was, how do I implement what's there?
16:51:59 <fantasai> dbaron: Part of reason to drop alphabetic is that there's nothing left in spec that's unclear
16:52:05 <BradK> BradK has joined #CSS
16:52:14 <fantasai> szilles: But doesn't auto ask for alphabetic position?
16:52:24 <fantasai> szilles: I'm not attached to alphabetic value, want auto to do something reasonable
16:52:27 <BradK> Sorry I'm late. What did I miss?
16:52:40 <BradK> jk
16:52:41 <Zakim> -Krit
16:52:44 <fantasai> dbaron: auto is vague enough that we can just keep our current implementation
16:53:06 <Zakim> +Krit
16:53:25 <fantasai> florian: Is it bad to disallow looking at font metrics?
16:53:30 <fantasai> szilles: Yes, that is bad.
16:53:52 <Zakim> +BradK
16:54:00 <fantasai> dbaron: also, what is the use case for alphabetic?
16:54:15 <fantasai> szilles: seems to be same as auto
16:54:20 <fantasai> dbaron: for the cases where you would want it, at least
16:54:42 <fantasai> szilles: So, you're reasonably happy with current definition of auto
16:55:16 <fantasai> szilles: ...
16:55:35 <fantasai> dbaron: alphabetic is same thing as auto in cases where you want it, but also unclear how to use font metrics
16:55:59 <florian> s/disallow looking at font metrics/disallow looking at font metrics for non-auto values/
16:56:15 <fantasai> fantasai: Current spec has blanket statement for using font metrics wherever appropriate
16:56:51 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:56:52 <fantasai> szilles: Can we come up with a definition of appropriate?
16:56:59 <fantasai> fantasai: Don't really want to do that...
16:57:12 <fantasai> fantasai: Maybe drop alphabetic, and tackle that in L4 if someone wants to define it for OpenType
16:57:43 <fantasai> fantasai: "appropriate" allows, e.g. blacklisting metrics of bad fonts
16:57:57 <fantasai> plinss: What does it mean for vertical text
16:59:03 <fantasai> fantasai: vertical text has an alphabetic baseline; should be defined in writing modes
16:59:13 <fantasai> fantasai: text decoration spec is in terms of over/under (relative) directions
16:59:17 <fantasai> fantasai: so no issue here
16:59:26 <fantasai> szilles: should auto do the right thing in vertical text?
16:59:54 <Zakim> -Krit
17:00:30 <Zakim> - +1.212.318.aadd
17:00:48 <fantasai> fantasai: Interesting question. If you have sideways Latin in vertical orientation, want the underline to look just like in horiziontal text
17:00:54 <fantasai> fantasai: but if typeset upright, want to shift it over
17:01:06 <fantasai> fantasai: similar problem to CJK in horizontal, want to make sure it shifts down enough
17:01:24 <fantasai> fantasai: so maybe add examples to the spec showing things UA needs to consider...
17:01:33 <fantasai> plinss: So, do we want to drop alphabetic?
17:01:36 <fantasai> fantasai: think so
17:01:44 <fantasai> szilles: now that I understand dbaron's issues, makes sense to me
17:01:50 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Drop alphabetic
17:02:00 <fantasai> plinss: Move to CR?
17:02:08 <fantasai> fantasai: Have to make edits, but that does close all the issues
17:02:54 <Zakim> -dael
17:03:00 <fantasai> ...
17:03:14 <fantasai> szilles: My understanding of our decisions today was, take conservative approach, don't define anything new
17:03:20 <Zakim> -hober
17:03:21 <fantasai> fantasai: Yep, so no need for another LC
17:03:27 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:03:28 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:03:29 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Take CSS3 Text Decoration to LC
17:03:30 <Zakim> -leif
17:03:32 <Zakim> -BradK
17:03:33 <leif> leif has left #css
17:03:33 <Zakim> -glazou
17:03:33 <Zakim> -Bert
17:03:34 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
17:03:36 <Zakim> -antonp
17:03:37 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:03:37 <Zakim> -??P75
17:03:38 <Zakim> -Lea
17:03:38 <Zakim> -glenn
17:03:39 <Zakim> -smfr
17:03:40 <Zakim> -koji
17:03:41 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:03:41 <Zakim> -plinss
17:04:07 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:06:56 <smfr> smfr has left #css
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17:11:53 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:16:55 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, jerenkrantz, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:16:55 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:16:55 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, Krit, plinss, leif, +1.610.324.aaaa, dael, florian, +93192aabb, antonp, Lea, SimonSapin, +1.619.846.aacc, fantasai, nvdbleek, glenn, SteveZ, JohnJansen,
17:16:58 <Zakim> ... +1.212.318.aadd, smfr, +1.212.318.aaee, jerenkrantz, [IPcaller], dbaron, koji, TabAtkins, Bert, hober, BradK
18:13:31 <SimonSapin> SimonSapin has joined #css
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21:10:04 <fantasai> great, www-style-request decided to unsubscribe me from www-style
21:11:02 <hober> wat
21:11:10 <fantasai> why am I responsible for the fact that bradlit@windows.microsoft.com bounces email?
21:11:17 <fantasai> Bert?
21:11:25 <SimonSapin> fantasai: yay, same as me in Tokyo!
21:11:42 <fantasai> ?
21:12:17 <fantasai> guess it's time to go splice MBOX files...
21:12:18 <fantasai> :/
21:12:49 <SimonSapin> The same thing happened to me, I got unsubscribed because someone (I think the same address) bounces
21:13:19 <TabAtkins> How weird!
21:13:22 <SimonSapin> plh added my address to some whitelist, and I reported the issue to sysreq
21:13:29 <SimonSapin> but apparently it’s not fixed yet
21:13:43 <fantasai> can we unsubscribe the address responsible?
21:15:14 <SimonSapin> probably
21:15:37 <SimonSapin> but we should also fix the W3C MTA kicking the wrong person out on bounces
21:22:02 <SimonSapin> fantasai: there is a thunderbird extension for importing mbox files
21:22:50 <SimonSapin> I did that with files from the archive, eyeballed the date range I was missing, and copied the messages using thunderbird
21:23:03 <SimonSapin> I wouldn’t mess with thuderbird’s storage using other tools
21:23:21 <fantasai> oh, yeah
21:23:42 <fantasai> I forgot how I usually do this... creating a new mbox and using TB's move functions :)
21:23:49 <fantasai> that's much easier
21:23:51 <SimonSapin> yeah
21:23:59 <fantasai> well, all spliced already
21:24:00 <fantasai> it should be okay
21:28:28 <fantasai> w00t, all minutes posted!!!!!!
21:28:56 <TabAtkins> Woo!
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23:48:16 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Preprocessor now distinguishes between value definitions and term definitions, so you can, for example, have both <dfn>initial</dfn> and <dfn>''initial''</dfn> in the document.  It'll auto-link appropriately in both cases.
23:48:43 <TabAtkins> Long-weekend project is getting the cross-spec xrefs working.
23:49:12 <TabAtkins> (<i>initial</i> links to the first one, ''initiall'' links to the second one)