IRC log of svg on 2013-06-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:28:04 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
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logging to
20:28:06 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:28:06 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
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ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
20:28:09 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:28:09 [trackbot]
Date: 27 June 2013
20:28:58 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM has now started
20:29:05 [Zakim]
20:29:18 [ed]
Zakim, [IP is me
20:29:18 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:31:33 [Zakim]
20:31:59 [ed]
20:32:16 [Zakim]
+ +
20:32:29 [Tav]
zakim, aaaa is me
20:32:29 [Zakim]
+Tav; got it
20:33:41 [Zakim]
+ +61.2.980.5.aabb
20:33:48 [nikos]
Zakim, 61.2 is me
20:33:48 [Zakim]
sorry, nikos, I do not recognize a party named '61.2'
20:33:57 [nikos]
Zakim, +61.2 is me
20:33:57 [Zakim]
+nikos; got it
20:34:07 [ed]
chair: ed
20:34:18 [Zakim]
20:34:40 [cabanier1]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
20:34:40 [Zakim]
+cabanier1; got it
20:35:02 [cabanier]
cabanier has joined #svg
20:35:20 [cabanier]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
20:35:20 [Zakim]
sorry, cabanier, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
20:35:31 [cabanier]
Zakim, cabanier1 is me
20:35:31 [Zakim]
+cabanier; got it
20:36:03 [ed]
Zakim, pick a scribe?
20:36:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, ed.
20:36:06 [ed]
Zakim, pick a scribe
20:36:06 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cabanier
20:37:32 [cabanier]
scribenick cabanier
20:37:55 [Zakim]
20:38:39 [Zakim]
+ +1.661.748.aacc
20:38:59 [richardschwerdtfeger]
richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg
20:39:00 [ed]
Zakim, +1 is me
20:39:00 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:39:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]
we meeting?
20:39:18 [cabanier]
scribenick: cabanier
20:39:21 [richardschwerdtfeger]
20:39:34 [cabanier]
topic: Questions concerning multiple paints
20:40:05 [cabanier]
tav: we agreed in tokyo that we can have multiple paints
20:40:15 [cabanier]
… I started on that and had a couple of questions
20:40:47 [Zakim]
20:40:49 [cabanier]
… the old text said that if the paint server was invalid and there was no fallback, the document was in error
20:40:56 [cabanier]
shepazu: that has changed for svg2
20:41:19 [cabanier]
Tav: if the final paint server is invalid, is the document in error
20:41:23 [cabanier]
shepazu: no.
20:41:35 [cabanier]
… look at svg tiny 1.2
20:41:49 [cabanier]
… I remember that we addressed that in that version. just look at the wording
20:41:58 [cabanier]
ed: yes. there's no state that's an error
20:42:12 [cabanier]
Tav: ok, so we'll just copy that text
20:42:16 [ed]
20:42:31 [cabanier]
… and I assume that you wouldn't fall back on the lacuna value
20:43:10 [cabanier]
… suppose you have 3 things on top of each other and if the first 2 are invalid
20:43:31 [cabanier]
shepazu: you'd display the third value. If that's invalid too, you fall back to the lacuna value
20:43:39 [cabanier]
… so there's 2 case:
20:44:06 [cabanier]
… one if where the resource if pointing to nothing
20:44:19 [cabanier]
… the other if there's something wrong inside that resource
20:44:51 [cabanier]
ed: svg1.2 states what should happen so you could borrow that
20:45:16 [cabanier]
shepazu: what if you point to an existing reference but it has an invalid value. do you still use the second
20:45:40 [cabanier]
Tav: no, you still paint all three. only the last one has a fallback
20:46:17 [cabanier]
… if there's a problem with one, you don't paint it. if there's a problem with the last one, you paint the fallback value
20:46:28 [Tav]
20:46:30 [krit]
krit has joined #svg
20:46:35 [cabanier]
… look at example 2
20:46:38 [ed]
20:46:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aadd
20:47:18 [krit]
Zakim, aadd is me
20:47:18 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
20:47:31 [cabanier]
shepazu: that seems arbitrary but it seems like a reasonable one
20:47:45 [cabanier]
Tav: this is what we decided in Tokyo
20:48:36 [cabanier]
… the second question: How should 'child' behave with allowing multiple paint
20:48:59 [cabanier]
… you can reference a child of an element as a paint server
20:49:40 [cabanier]
… but what if you have 3 children. right now it says take the last child, but in the case of multiple paints, you want them all
20:49:49 [cabanier]
ed: you have a child selector
20:50:01 [cabanier]
Tav: what do you do with the keyword child
20:50:11 [ed]
[ <funciri> | child | <child-selector> ]
20:50:11 [cabanier]
ed: you use iri, child or a child selector
20:50:24 [cabanier]
ed: this is from the current spec
20:50:36 [cabanier]
… so if you want a specific child you use the selecor
20:50:46 [cabanier]
Tav: but what if you want al three
20:50:56 [cabanier]
shepazu: use a funciri and point to it
20:51:11 [cabanier]
… the child is just a convenience method
20:51:18 [cabanier]
.. so use a funciri
20:51:24 [cabanier]
Tav: that sounds reasonable
20:51:36 [cabanier]
… can you give me an example?
20:51:48 [ed]
20:52:18 [cabanier]
Tav: an example will be really good
20:52:26 [cabanier]
ed: a class selector would work.
20:52:36 [ed]
20:52:55 [ed]
20:53:12 [cabanier]
ed: you have to put all the things in
20:53:21 [cabanier]
Tav: ok. I will add a couple more example
20:53:37 [cabanier]
ed: most common will be nth-child
20:53:49 [cabanier]
… at least, that's my guess
20:54:09 [cabanier]
shepazu: can a child selector select more than one value
20:54:22 [cabanier]
… if I have 3, but want to select 2, can I do that?
20:54:41 [cabanier]
ed: yes, look at the example I posted. it can be a comma separated list
20:54:54 [cabanier]
… but it's not completely clear in the spec
20:55:03 [cabanier]
shepazu: we should fix that in the spec
20:55:04 [ed]
20:55:14 [cabanier]
… is this something from css, or svg?
20:55:23 [cabanier]
ed: it's from svg but links to css
20:55:35 [cabanier]
shepazu: who defined the syntax?
20:56:00 [cabanier]
… the individual?
20:56:05 [cabanier]
ed: I don't know
20:56:15 [TabAtkins]
Brian, I think? With help from me?
20:57:22 [cabanier]
Tav: I find it strange how it pulls in CSS
20:57:47 [cabanier]
krit: css masking is using this and it just selects direct children
20:58:08 [cabanier]
ed: does anyone have a solution to the problem? should we ask it on the mailing list?
20:58:34 [cabanier]
shepazu: yes, we should find out who put it in and have them add more examples
20:58:59 [cabanier]
krit: yes, it should be better specified
20:59:08 [cabanier]
ed: tav, can you write up an email?
20:59:12 [cabanier]
krit: that would be great
20:59:15 [cabanier]
Tav: OK
20:59:29 [krit]
21:00:06 [cabanier]
ed: quick question about the example
21:00:14 [cabanier]
… that tav put in the spec.
21:00:20 [ed]
fill="url(#MyHatch1, #MyHatch2 powderblue)"
21:00:26 [cabanier]
… it uses syntax like above
21:00:34 [cabanier]
… is that correct syntax?
21:00:47 [cabanier]
Tav: I will fix that
21:00:53 [cabanier]
… I just pasted
21:01:23 [cabanier]
topic: Should text-overflow apply to text-on-path?
21:01:38 [cabanier]
Tav: it only apply to regular text for now
21:01:44 [cabanier]
… we discussed this but I don't remember
21:01:53 [cabanier]
… if we concluded anything
21:02:16 [cabanier]
ed: opera just treated it on the text element but it works on a text path
21:02:27 [cabanier]
… because we wrap the text-path
21:02:37 [cabanier]
krit: what happens with overflow in text
21:02:38 [ed]
21:02:58 [cabanier]
… we discussed this before and decided that it was difficult to definee
21:03:12 [cabanier]
ed: we'd have to go back and special case it
21:03:29 [cabanier]
… so it basically worked but it's possible that it wasn't great in all cases
21:04:39 [cabanier]
… you layout the text on a straight line first and then map it to a path
21:04:50 [cabanier]
… at least that's how opera did it
21:05:28 [cabanier]
… it's not ideal in all cases. for instance if it's not one line
21:05:46 [cabanier]
Tav: that's what you'd want
21:06:34 [cabanier]
… maybe the order of the agenda items is reversed :-)
21:06:46 [cabanier]
… the next item talks about what width means
21:07:12 [cabanier]
topic: SVG2 Text wrapping - new definition of 'width'?
21:07:27 [cabanier]
Tav: width defines the width of a single line of text
21:07:38 [cabanier]
… but now it defines the width of an area
21:08:03 [cabanier]
… and you get overflow if the text wraps of the bottom
21:08:21 [cabanier]
… if you have only have width the text keeps wrapping
21:08:31 [cabanier]
shepazu: that's correct
21:09:12 [cabanier]
Tav: this is natural way of getting a wrapping context
21:09:36 [cabanier]
.. the other problem is the case of vertical text
21:09:47 [cabanier]
… the width doesn't apply in the case of vertical text
21:10:19 [cabanier]
shepazu: the directionality of the flow of the text is not dependant on width/height
21:10:31 [cabanier]
… it also depends on the text direction property
21:11:09 [cabanier]
… top to bottom right to left, if I specified a width it wouldn't have the desired effect
21:11:40 [cabanier]
.. I specified width and height, it would start clipping the width
21:11:53 [cabanier]
nikos: is it feasible to do this on the flow of the text
21:12:02 [cabanier]
shepazu: yes , you'd have to do that
21:12:19 [cabanier]
…. the behavior is dependant on the direction of the text\
21:12:28 [cabanier]
… you have to know the flow of the text
21:12:51 [cabanier]
… it would be worth to talk about that
21:13:02 [cabanier]
… and hopefully CSS already covers this
21:13:17 [cabanier]
Tav: css redefines left to right, top to bottom
21:13:47 [cabanier]
… they are redefining the text flow
21:14:05 [cabanier]
… so width should define wrapping context and not overflow
21:14:13 [cabanier]
shepazu: we need to talk to the css wg
21:14:28 [cabanier]
Tav: what does this have to do with the CSS?
21:14:35 [cabanier]
…. we don't rely on CSS
21:14:58 [cabanier]
… to define the wrapping context using width and height does not depend on CSS
21:15:17 [cabanier]
shepazu: that is not my understanding. My proposal is all about CSS
21:15:43 [cabanier]
Tav: no, once you have a wrapping context you fill it using CSS
21:16:19 [cabanier]
shepazu: I don't see how it's different. a div would cause wrapping
21:16:39 [cabanier]
Tav: no, our width and height create a wrapping context
21:17:01 [cabanier]
… you said we have to check with CSS
21:17:14 [cabanier]
shepazu: I want to make sure that we're all on the same page
21:17:19 [cabanier]
… with overflow etc
21:17:31 [cabanier]
Tav: I agree with that.
21:17:51 [cabanier]
… using width and height didn't seem like we need their approval
21:17:54 [cabanier]
shepazu: yes
21:18:09 [cabanier]
… should we resolve on that?
21:18:12 [cabanier]
ed: yes
21:18:33 [TabAtkins]
Yes, please.
21:20:28 [cabanier]
resolution: we will add width and height for text wrapping on the text element using the css wrapping context
21:21:26 [cabanier]
action: tav to make the text wrapping changes to the spec
21:21:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3509 - Make the text wrapping changes to the spec [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2013-07-04].
21:24:38 [Zakim]
21:25:03 [nikos]
21:25:11 [nikos]
21:25:11 [nikos]
readonly attribute number tabIndex;
21:25:27 [Zakim]
21:26:04 [Tav]
zakim, P2 is me
21:26:04 [Zakim]
sorry, Tav, I do not recognize a party named 'P2'
21:26:26 [Tav]
zakim, +??P2 is me
21:26:26 [Zakim]
sorry, Tav, I do not recognize a party named '+??P2'
21:26:44 [cabanier]
shepazu: let's talk about making svg an ISO spec
21:26:53 [cabanier]
… there's reasons that we want it
21:27:18 [cabanier]
… because of competition with other formats
21:27:42 [cabanier]
… and because some people can't use it in governments unless it's in ISO
21:28:10 [cabanier]
… and because as a method to promote the stability of the format
21:28:19 [cabanier]
krit: where is the problem?
21:28:28 [cabanier]
shepazu: we didn't have this minuted
21:28:41 [thorton]
thorton has joined #svg
21:28:53 [cabanier]
… and Rich has concern that we should do SVG 2 instead of 1.1
21:29:08 [cabanier]
krit: I thought we wanted to do 2.0
21:29:11 [ed]
topic: making svg an ISO spec
21:29:16 [cabanier]
nikos: I remember that too
21:29:30 [cabanier]
Tav: yes, that is true
21:29:39 [cabanier]
shepazu: That's not my recollection
21:29:58 [cabanier]
… we wanted SVG 1.1 second edition
21:30:12 [cabanier]
… since it was suitable for ISO submission
21:30:28 [cabanier]
… my stance is that it does no harm to have 1.1 as an ISO spec
21:30:41 [cabanier]
… it will take little effort (unless there are objections)
21:30:57 [cabanier]
… and will only take 3 months and follow up in 2014
21:31:09 [cabanier]
… when svg2.0 has recommendation
21:31:18 [cabanier]
… and make that an iso spec as well
21:31:38 [cabanier]
… it will help people that want to use SVG 1.1 for government use
21:32:02 [cabanier]
…. and they can then upgrade to SVG2.0
21:32:07 [cabanier]
… who has objections?
21:32:27 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: so, you will be releasing 1.1 and 2.0 a year later? that will drive people crazy?
21:32:43 [cabanier]
…. do you want people to write 1.1 or use 2.0?
21:32:56 [cabanier]
Tav: what does that drive people crazy?
21:33:35 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: if you get people to gear up for 1.1 and then switch a year later. it takes a lot of time and money to switch over
21:33:48 [cabanier]
… 3 to 4 years is btter
21:34:01 [cabanier]
Tav: one year for svg 2 is very optimistic
21:34:18 [cabanier]
shepazu: yes, it's not just editing the spec but also driving implementations
21:35:21 [cabanier]
… we run the risk that we talk at least 2 years
21:35:41 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: IE has problems even with the 1.1 stuff
21:35:53 [cabanier]
… such as animations
21:36:06 [cabanier]
shepazu: they don't want to implement certain 1.1 features
21:36:22 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: more support for things in 2.0?
21:36:36 [cabanier]
shepazu: I think there's still an open question
21:37:03 [cabanier]
… we might drop features in 2.0 if they're not implemented in other browsers
21:37:14 [cabanier]
… which could include SMIL and SVG fonts
21:37:23 [krit]
Am in favor for SVG 1.1 and update to 2 later
21:37:30 [Zakim]
21:37:32 [cabanier]
… but we have no consensus on that
21:37:56 [cabanier]
ed: I agree that 2.0 will be ready soon.
21:38:58 [cabanier]
shepazu: creating an iso spec could be ready around october 2013
21:39:06 [ed]
s/I agree that 2.0 will be ready soon./I see no harm in submitting 1.1 and 2.0 later on. SVG 1.1 is stable./
21:39:12 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: why do you think it needs to be an ISO spec
21:39:27 [cabanier]
shepazu: I've talked to people that have told me this
21:39:49 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: the other issue is that SVG does not offer accessibility
21:39:58 [cabanier]
shepazu: that's not quite true.
21:40:15 [cabanier]
… there's nothing that support accessible bar chart
21:40:44 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: every web accessible technology has to be keyboard accessible
21:41:14 [cabanier]
shepazu: that's not quite true. you can put titles and descriptions on everything
21:41:26 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: that's not keyboard accessible
21:41:45 [cabanier]
shepazu: we should bring this up in 2 weeks
21:42:08 [cabanier]
Tav: if there's no work for us, then we should do an ISO spec now
21:42:30 [cabanier]
shepazu: let's do a poll!
21:42:50 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: no. wait for 2.0
21:43:06 [cabanier]
… but I'd need an internal discussion
21:43:20 [cabanier]
… but I am concerned about accessibilty
21:43:41 [cabanier]
shepazu: the competing technologies have the same issues
21:44:56 [cabanier]
… are PDF images keyboard accessube?
21:45:15 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: yes
21:47:11 [cabanier]
ed: let's wait 2 weeks to get to resolution
21:47:37 [cabanier]
richardschwerdtfeger: Doug can you write me a note why w3c wants this and how it could be helpful
21:48:03 [cabanier]
shepazu: yes, I will try that
21:48:09 [Zakim]
21:48:10 [Zakim]
21:48:12 [Zakim]
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21:48:17 [Zakim]
21:48:18 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM has ended
21:48:18 [Zakim]
Attendees were ed, Doug_Schepers, +, Tav, +61.2.980.5.aabb, nikos, cabanier, +1.661.748.aacc, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.415.832.aadd, krit
21:54:27 [cabanier]
RRSAgent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate cabanier
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