20:28:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:28:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/06/27-svg-irc
20:28:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:28:06 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:28:08 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:28:08 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
20:28:09 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:28:09 <trackbot> Date: 27 June 2013
20:28:58 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM has now started
20:29:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:29:18 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
20:29:18 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:31:33 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:31:59 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013AprJun/0158.html
20:32:16 <Zakim> + +33.9.53.77.aaaa
20:32:29 <Tav> zakim, aaaa is me
20:32:29 <Zakim> +Tav; got it
20:33:41 <Zakim> + +61.2.980.5.aabb
20:33:48 <nikos> Zakim, 61.2 is me
20:33:48 <Zakim> sorry, nikos, I do not recognize a party named '61.2'
20:33:57 <nikos> Zakim, +61.2 is me
20:33:57 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
20:34:07 <ed> chair: ed
20:34:18 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:34:40 <cabanier1> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
20:34:40 <Zakim> +cabanier1; got it
20:35:02 <cabanier> cabanier has joined #svg
20:35:20 <cabanier> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
20:35:20 <Zakim> sorry, cabanier, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
20:35:31 <cabanier> Zakim, cabanier1 is me
20:35:31 <Zakim> +cabanier; got it
20:36:03 <ed> Zakim, pick a scribe?
20:36:03 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ed.
20:36:06 <ed> Zakim, pick a scribe
20:36:06 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cabanier
20:37:32 <cabanier> scribenick	 cabanier
20:37:55 <Zakim> -ed
20:38:39 <Zakim> + +1.661.748.aacc
20:38:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg
20:39:00 <ed> Zakim, +1 is me
20:39:00 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:39:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> we meeting?
20:39:18 <cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
20:39:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> k
20:39:34 <cabanier> topic: Questions concerning multiple paints
20:40:05 <cabanier> tav: we agreed in tokyo that we can have multiple paints
20:40:15 <cabanier> … I started on that and had a couple of questions
20:40:47 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:40:49 <cabanier> … the old text said that if the paint server was invalid and there was no fallback, the document was in error
20:40:56 <cabanier> shepazu: that has changed for svg2
20:41:19 <cabanier> Tav: if the final paint server is invalid, is the document in error
20:41:23 <cabanier> shepazu: no.
20:41:35 <cabanier> … look at svg tiny 1.2
20:41:49 <cabanier> … I remember that we addressed that in that version. just look at the wording
20:41:58 <cabanier> ed: yes. there's no state that's an error
20:42:12 <cabanier> Tav: ok, so we'll just copy that text
20:42:16 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/painting.html#SpecifyingPaint
20:42:31 <cabanier> … and I assume that you wouldn't fall back on the lacuna value
20:43:10 <cabanier> … suppose you have 3 things on top of each other and if the first 2 are invalid
20:43:31 <cabanier> shepazu: you'd display the third value. If that's invalid too, you fall back to the lacuna value
20:43:39 <cabanier> … so there's 2 case:
20:44:06 <cabanier> … one if where the resource if pointing to nothing
20:44:19 <cabanier> … the other if there's something wrong inside that resource
20:44:51 <cabanier> ed: svg1.2 states what should happen so you could borrow that
20:45:16 <cabanier> shepazu: what if you point to an existing reference but it has an invalid value. do you still use the second
20:45:40 <cabanier> Tav: no, you still paint all three. only the last one has a fallback
20:46:17 <cabanier> … if there's a problem with one, you don't paint it. if there's a problem with the last one, you paint the fallback value
20:46:28 <Tav> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html
20:46:30 <krit> krit has joined #svg
20:46:35 <cabanier> … look at example 2
20:46:38 <ed> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#SpecifyingPaint
20:46:45 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aadd
20:47:18 <krit> Zakim, aadd is me
20:47:18 <Zakim> +krit; got it
20:47:31 <cabanier> shepazu: that seems arbitrary but it seems like a reasonable one
20:47:45 <cabanier> Tav: this is what we decided in Tokyo
20:48:36 <cabanier> … the second question: How should 'child' behave with allowing multiple paint
20:48:59 <cabanier> … you can reference a child of an element as a paint server
20:49:40 <cabanier> … but what if you have 3 children. right now it says take the last child, but in the case of multiple paints, you want them all
20:49:49 <cabanier> ed: you have a child selector
20:50:01 <cabanier> Tav: what do you do with the keyword child
20:50:11 <ed> [ <funciri> | child | <child-selector> ]
20:50:11 <cabanier> ed: you use iri, child or a child selector
20:50:24 <cabanier> ed: this is from the current spec
20:50:36 <cabanier> … so if you want a specific child you use the selecor
20:50:46 <cabanier> Tav: but what if you want al three
20:50:56 <cabanier> shepazu: use a funciri and point to it
20:51:11 <cabanier> … the child is just a convenience method
20:51:18 <cabanier> .. so use a funciri
20:51:24 <cabanier> Tav: that sounds reasonable
20:51:36 <cabanier> … can you give me an example?
20:51:48 <ed> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/types.html#DataTypeChildSelector
20:52:18 <cabanier> Tav: an example will be really good
20:52:26 <cabanier> ed: a class selector would work.
20:52:36 <ed> fill=".fooBarClass"
20:52:55 <ed> fill="select(.fooBarClass)"
20:53:12 <cabanier> ed: you have to put all the things in
20:53:21 <cabanier> Tav: ok. I will add a couple more example
20:53:37 <cabanier> ed: most common will be nth-child
20:53:49 <cabanier> … at least, that's my guess
20:54:09 <cabanier> shepazu: can a child selector select more than one value
20:54:22 <cabanier> … if I have 3, but want to select 2, can I do that?
20:54:41 <cabanier> ed: yes, look at the example I posted. it can be a comma separated list
20:54:54 <cabanier> … but it's not completely clear in the spec
20:55:03 <cabanier> shepazu: we should fix that in the spec
20:55:04 <ed> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/types.html#DataTypeChildSelector
20:55:14 <cabanier> … is this something from css, or svg?
20:55:23 <cabanier> ed: it's from svg but links to css
20:55:35 <cabanier> shepazu: who defined the syntax?
20:56:00 <cabanier> … the individual?
20:56:05 <cabanier> ed: I don't know
20:56:15 <TabAtkins> Brian, I think?  With help from me?
20:57:22 <cabanier> Tav: I find it strange how it pulls in CSS
20:57:47 <cabanier> krit: css masking is using this and it just selects direct children
20:58:08 <cabanier> ed: does anyone have a solution to the problem? should we ask it on the mailing list?
20:58:34 <cabanier> shepazu: yes, we should find out who put it in and have them add more examples
20:58:59 <cabanier> krit: yes, it should be better specified
20:59:08 <cabanier> ed: tav, can you write up an email?
20:59:12 <cabanier> krit: that would be great
20:59:15 <cabanier> Tav: OK
20:59:29 <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html#the-mask-image
21:00:06 <cabanier> ed: quick question about the example
21:00:14 <cabanier> … that tav put in the spec.
21:00:20 <ed> fill="url(#MyHatch1, #MyHatch2 powderblue)"
21:00:26 <cabanier> … it uses syntax like above
21:00:34 <cabanier> … is that correct syntax?
21:00:47 <cabanier> Tav: I will fix that
21:00:53 <cabanier> … I just pasted
21:01:23 <cabanier> topic: Should text-overflow apply to text-on-path?
21:01:38 <cabanier> Tav: it only apply to regular text for now
21:01:44 <cabanier> … we discussed this but I don't remember
21:01:53 <cabanier> … if we concluded anything
21:02:16 <cabanier> ed: opera just treated it on the text element but it works on a text path
21:02:27 <cabanier> … because we wrap the text-path
21:02:37 <cabanier> krit: what happens with overflow in text
21:02:38 <ed> http://dahlström.net/svg/css/text-overflow-ellipsis.svg
21:02:58 <cabanier> … we discussed this before and decided that it was difficult to definee
21:03:12 <cabanier> ed: we'd have to go back and special case it
21:03:29 <cabanier> … so it basically worked but it's possible that it wasn't great in all cases
21:04:39 <cabanier> … you layout the text on a straight line first and then map it to a path
21:04:50 <cabanier> … at least that's how opera did it
21:05:28 <cabanier> … it's not ideal in all cases. for instance if it's not one line
21:05:46 <cabanier> Tav: that's what you'd want
21:06:34 <cabanier> … maybe the order of the agenda items is reversed :-)
21:06:46 <cabanier> … the next item talks about what width means
21:07:12 <cabanier> topic: SVG2 Text wrapping - new definition of 'width'?
21:07:27 <cabanier> Tav: width defines the width of a single line of text
21:07:38 <cabanier> … but now it defines the width of an area
21:08:03 <cabanier> … and you get overflow if the text wraps of the bottom
21:08:21 <cabanier> … if you have only have width the text keeps wrapping
21:08:31 <cabanier> shepazu: that's correct
21:09:12 <cabanier> Tav: this is natural way of getting a wrapping context
21:09:36 <cabanier> .. the other problem is the case of vertical text
21:09:47 <cabanier> … the width doesn't apply in the case of vertical text
21:10:19 <cabanier> shepazu: the directionality of the flow of the text is not dependant on width/height
21:10:31 <cabanier> … it also depends on the text direction property
21:11:09 <cabanier> … top to bottom right to left, if I specified a width it wouldn't have the desired effect
21:11:40 <cabanier> .. I specified width and height, it would start clipping the width
21:11:53 <cabanier> nikos: is it feasible to do this on the flow of the text
21:12:02 <cabanier> shepazu: yes , you'd have to do that
21:12:19 <cabanier> …. the behavior is dependant on the direction of the text\
21:12:28 <cabanier> … you have to know the flow of the text
21:12:51 <cabanier> … it would be worth to talk about that
21:13:02 <cabanier> … and hopefully CSS already covers this
21:13:17 <cabanier> Tav: css redefines left to right, top to bottom
21:13:47 <cabanier> … they are redefining the text flow
21:14:05 <cabanier> … so width should define wrapping context and not overflow
21:14:13 <cabanier> shepazu: we need to talk to the css wg
21:14:28 <cabanier> Tav: what does this have to do with the CSS?
21:14:35 <cabanier> …. we don't rely on CSS
21:14:58 <cabanier> … to define the wrapping context using width and height does not depend on CSS
21:15:17 <cabanier> shepazu: that is not my understanding. My proposal is all about CSS
21:15:43 <cabanier> Tav: no, once you have a wrapping context you fill it using CSS
21:16:19 <cabanier> shepazu: I don't see how it's different. a div would cause wrapping
21:16:39 <cabanier> Tav: no, our width and height create a wrapping context
21:17:01 <cabanier> … you said we have to check with CSS
21:17:14 <cabanier> shepazu: I want to make sure that we're all on the same page
21:17:19 <cabanier> … with overflow etc
21:17:31 <cabanier> Tav: I agree with that.
21:17:51 <cabanier> … using width and height didn't seem like we need their approval
21:17:54 <cabanier> shepazu: yes
21:18:09 <cabanier> … should we resolve on that?
21:18:12 <cabanier> ed: yes
21:18:33 <TabAtkins> Yes, please.
21:20:28 <cabanier> resolution: we will add width and height for text wrapping on the text element using the css wrapping context
21:21:26 <cabanier> action: tav to make the text wrapping changes to the spec
21:21:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3509 - Make the text wrapping changes to the spec [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2013-07-04].
21:24:38 <Zakim> -Tav
21:25:03 <nikos> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/types.html#InterfaceSVGElement
21:25:11 <nikos> 
21:25:11 <nikos>   readonly attribute number tabIndex;
21:25:27 <Zakim> +??P2
21:26:04 <Tav> zakim, P2 is me
21:26:04 <Zakim> sorry, Tav, I do not recognize a party named 'P2'
21:26:26 <Tav> zakim, +??P2 is me
21:26:26 <Zakim> sorry, Tav, I do not recognize a party named '+??P2'
21:26:44 <cabanier> shepazu: let's talk about making svg an ISO spec
21:26:53 <cabanier> … there's reasons that we want it
21:27:18 <cabanier> … because of competition with other formats
21:27:42 <cabanier> … and because some people can't use it in governments unless it's in ISO
21:28:10 <cabanier> … and because as a method to promote the stability of the format
21:28:19 <cabanier> krit: where is the problem?
21:28:28 <cabanier> shepazu: we didn't have this minuted
21:28:41 <thorton> thorton has joined #svg
21:28:53 <cabanier> … and Rich has concern that we should do SVG 2 instead of 1.1
21:29:08 <cabanier> krit: I thought we wanted to do 2.0
21:29:11 <ed> topic: making svg an ISO spec
21:29:16 <cabanier> nikos: I remember that too
21:29:30 <cabanier> Tav: yes, that is true
21:29:39 <cabanier> shepazu: That's not my recollection
21:29:58 <cabanier> … we wanted SVG 1.1 second edition
21:30:12 <cabanier> … since it was suitable for ISO submission
21:30:28 <cabanier> … my stance is that it does no harm to have 1.1 as an ISO spec
21:30:41 <cabanier> … it will take little effort (unless there are objections)
21:30:57 <cabanier> … and will only take 3 months and follow up in 2014
21:31:09 <cabanier> … when svg2.0 has recommendation
21:31:18 <cabanier> … and make that an iso spec as well
21:31:38 <cabanier> … it will help people that want to use SVG 1.1 for government use
21:32:02 <cabanier> …. and they can then upgrade to SVG2.0
21:32:07 <cabanier> … who has objections?
21:32:27 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: so, you will be releasing 1.1 and 2.0 a year later? that will drive people crazy?
21:32:43 <cabanier> …. do you want people to write 1.1 or use 2.0?
21:32:56 <cabanier> Tav: what does that drive people crazy?
21:33:35 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: if you get people to gear up for 1.1 and then switch a year later. it takes a lot of time and money to switch over
21:33:48 <cabanier> … 3 to 4 years is btter
21:34:01 <cabanier> Tav: one year for svg 2 is very optimistic
21:34:18 <cabanier> shepazu: yes, it's not just editing the spec but also driving implementations
21:35:21 <cabanier> … we run the risk that we talk at least 2 years
21:35:41 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: IE has problems even with the 1.1 stuff
21:35:53 <cabanier> … such as animations
21:36:06 <cabanier> shepazu: they don't want to implement certain 1.1 features
21:36:22 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: more support for things in 2.0?
21:36:36 <cabanier> shepazu: I think there's still an open question
21:37:03 <cabanier> … we might drop features in 2.0 if they're not implemented in other browsers
21:37:14 <cabanier> … which could include SMIL and SVG fonts
21:37:23 <krit> Am in favor for SVG 1.1 and update to 2 later
21:37:30 <Zakim> -krit
21:37:32 <cabanier> … but we have no consensus on that
21:37:56 <cabanier> ed: I agree that 2.0 will be ready soon.
21:38:58 <cabanier> shepazu: creating an iso spec could be ready around october 2013
21:39:06 <ed> s/I agree that 2.0 will be ready soon./I see no harm in submitting 1.1 and 2.0 later on. SVG 1.1 is stable./
21:39:12 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: why do you think it needs to be an ISO spec
21:39:27 <cabanier> shepazu: I've talked to people that have told me this
21:39:49 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: the other issue is that SVG does not offer accessibility
21:39:58 <cabanier> shepazu: that's not quite true.
21:40:15 <cabanier> … there's nothing that support accessible bar chart
21:40:44 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: every web accessible technology has to be keyboard accessible
21:41:14 <cabanier> shepazu: that's not quite true. you can put titles and descriptions on everything
21:41:26 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: that's not keyboard accessible
21:41:45 <cabanier> shepazu: we should bring this up in 2 weeks
21:42:08 <cabanier> Tav:  if there's no work for us, then we should do an ISO spec now
21:42:30 <cabanier> shepazu: let's do a poll!
21:42:50 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: no. wait for 2.0
21:43:06 <cabanier> … but I'd need an internal discussion
21:43:20 <cabanier> … but I am concerned about accessibilty
21:43:41 <cabanier> shepazu: the competing technologies have the same issues
21:44:56 <cabanier> … are PDF images keyboard accessube?
21:45:15 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: yes
21:47:11 <cabanier> ed: let's wait 2 weeks to get to resolution
21:47:37 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: Doug can you write me a note why w3c wants this and how it could be helpful
21:48:03 <cabanier> shepazu: yes, I will try that
21:48:09 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:48:10 <Zakim> -ed
21:48:12 <Zakim> -??P2
21:48:13 <Zakim> -nikos
21:48:13 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:48:17 <Zakim> -cabanier
21:48:18 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:30PM has ended
21:48:18 <Zakim> Attendees were ed, Doug_Schepers, +33.9.53.77.aaaa, Tav, +61.2.980.5.aabb, nikos, cabanier, +1.661.748.aacc, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.415.832.aadd, krit
21:54:27 <cabanier> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:54:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/27-svg-minutes.html cabanier
21:58:30 <krit> krit has joined #svg
22:35:56 <krit> krit has joined #svg
22:57:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg
23:53:22 <krit> krit has joined #svg
23:57:27 <krit1> krit1 has joined #svg