IRC log of css on 2013-06-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:25:22 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #css
15:25:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:25:27 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:25:27 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
15:25:31 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:25:38 [glazou]
glazou has changed the topic to:
15:30:45 [bkardell]
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15:42:49 [dbaron]
dbaron has joined #css
15:44:47 [florian]
florian has joined #css
15:49:16 [tantek]
tantek has joined #css
15:55:11 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:19 [Zakim]
15:55:22 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
15:55:22 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:56:47 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
15:56:59 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:57:03 [jdaggett]
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15:57:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aaaa
15:57:26 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa has krit
15:57:26 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
15:57:29 [Zakim]
15:57:34 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa has rhauck
15:57:34 [Zakim]
+rhauck; got it
15:57:46 [jerenkrantz_]
jerenkrantz_ has joined #css
15:58:13 [rhauck]
rhauck has joined #css
15:58:27 [BradK]
BradK has joined #CSS
15:58:36 [Zakim]
15:59:25 [Zakim]
15:59:28 [leif]
leif has joined #css
15:59:34 [Zakim]
15:59:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.520.280.aabb
15:59:57 [glazou]
Zakim, aabb is bkardell
15:59:57 [Zakim]
+bkardell; got it
16:00:16 [dael]
dael has joined #css
16:00:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.212.318.aacc
16:00:34 [Zakim]
16:00:36 [Zakim]
16:00:41 [jerenkrantz_]
Zakim: aacc is me
16:00:44 [Zakim]
+ +47.23.69.aadd
16:00:47 [shezbaig_wk]
shezbaig_wk has joined #css
16:00:48 [florian]
Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
16:00:48 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
16:00:52 [jdaggett]
zakim, ipcaller.a is me
16:00:52 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
16:00:53 [leif]
Zakim, I am aadd
16:00:53 [Zakim]
+leif; got it
16:00:59 [smfr]
smfr has joined #css
16:01:02 [plinss]
bkardell: also you should do this:
16:01:12 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:01:19 [jerenkrantz_]
Zakim: aacc is jerenkrantz
16:01:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.610.324.aaee
16:01:23 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (68%), [IPcaller] (43%)
16:01:40 [dael]
Zakim, aaee is me
16:01:40 [Zakim]
+dael; got it
16:01:43 [Zakim]
16:01:49 [bkardell]
plinss: done
16:01:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.212.318.aaff
16:01:50 [jerenkrantz_]
Zakim, aacc is jerenkrantz
16:01:50 [Zakim]
+jerenkrantz; got it
16:01:52 [koji]
koji has joined #css
16:02:04 [oyvind]
oyvind has joined #css
16:02:04 [shezbaig_wk]
zakim, aaff is me
16:02:05 [Zakim]
+shezbaig_wk; got it
16:02:26 [Zakim]
16:02:45 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P42 is SimonSapin
16:02:46 [Zakim]
16:02:46 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin; got it
16:02:56 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin has joined #css
16:02:56 [Zakim]
16:02:59 [fantasai]
16:03:26 [glazou]
eheh bad UI ?
16:03:28 [tantek]
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16:03:29 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.675.aagg
16:03:30 [nvdbleek]
zakim, code?
16:03:30 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, nvdbleek
16:03:33 [bkardell]
I am happy to say none of these are the noob
16:03:38 [glazou]
Zakim, aagg is sylvaing
16:03:39 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:03:47 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:04:00 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (55%), dael (61%), BradK (4%), sylvaing (98%)
16:04:03 [Zakim]
16:04:05 [glazou]
Zakim, mute sylvaing
16:04:05 [Zakim]
sylvaing should now be muted
16:04:10 [Zakim]
16:04:14 [Zakim]
16:04:18 [glazou]
sylvaing, you muted on your end, right ?
16:04:20 [nvdbleek]
zakim, mute me
16:04:20 [Zakim]
nvdbleek should now be muted
16:04:25 [fantasai]
zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
16:04:25 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:04:37 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute sylvaing
16:04:37 [Zakim]
sylvaing should no longer be muted
16:05:11 [Zakim]
16:05:15 [c_palmer]
c_palmer has joined #css
16:05:23 [koji]
zakim, ipcaller.a is me
16:05:23 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
16:05:31 [glazou]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, +1.415.832.aaaa, Plh, plinss, BradK, Stearns, bkardell, jerenkrantz, [IPcaller], jdaggett, leif, dael, smfr, shezbaig_wk, SimonSapin, sylvaing,
16:05:34 [Zakim]
... shezbaig_wk.a, fantasai, nvdbleek (muted), koji
16:05:34 [Zakim]
+1.415.832.aaaa has rhauck
16:05:34 [Zakim]
[IPcaller] has florian
16:05:53 [SimonSapin]
ScribeNick: SimonSapin
16:06:10 [SimonSapin]
glazou: extra items?
16:06:22 [SimonSapin]
Topic: Fonts LC
16:06:27 [Zakim]
16:06:33 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett: had lots of comments
16:06:34 [tantek]
Zakim, mute tantek
16:06:34 [Zakim]
Tantek should now be muted
16:06:39 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett: 2 issues
16:06:52 [Rossen]
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16:07:01 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett: OM of @font-feature-values, waiting on a new piece of WebIDL
16:07:07 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett: as is Varibales
16:07:30 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett: Second issue: font-size-adjust vs. em/ex/ch units
16:07:37 [Zakim]
16:07:45 [Rossen]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:07:45 [Zakim]
+Rossen; got it
16:07:47 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett: ask for LC next tuesday, resolve issues during LC period
16:07:53 [SteveZ]
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16:07:56 [Zakim]
16:08:09 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: would like to resolve unit issue now
16:08:24 [SimonSapin]
glazou: are you ok for LC if we do that?
16:08:26 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: yes
16:08:34 [SimonSapin]
glazou: other opinions?
16:08:40 [Zakim]
16:08:49 [Zakim]
16:08:56 [TabAtkins]
zakim, P83 is me
16:08:56 [Zakim]
sorry, TabAtkins, I do not recognize a party named 'P83'
16:09:02 [SimonSapin]
glazou: being heavy user of the OM I’m worried about that issue
16:09:03 [TabAtkins]
zakim, ??P83 is me
16:09:03 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
16:09:29 [SimonSapin]
glazou: LC means almost finished, dealing with issue after LC is weird
16:09:30 [cpalmer]
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16:09:37 [SimonSapin]
glazou: but don’t want to block
16:09:56 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett: relies on Map… struct, not defined yet in WebIDL
16:10:14 [SimonSapin]
TabAtkins: heycam promised it this week
16:10:19 [sgalineau]
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16:10:37 [SimonSapin]
glazou: within a week we should resolve issues?
16:10:39 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett: yes
16:10:50 [SimonSapin]
glazou: Then I withdraw my concern
16:11:02 [SimonSapin]
glazou: Other opinions?
16:11:16 [SimonSapin]
RESOLVED: Fonts LC after resolving the 2 issues
16:11:26 [SimonSapin]
glazou, is that right?
16:11:41 [fantasai]
16:11:46 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: issue in computing ch/em/ex unit with font-size-adjust
16:11:51 [myakura]
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16:12:05 [fantasai]
16:12:24 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: proposal is: ex/ch computed against the used font size, with metrics
16:12:45 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: accounting for font-size-adjust and other things/substitutions
16:13:12 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: we really want to match the glyphs; need font data anyway, might as well account for everything we can
16:13:37 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: em could go either way, either use the used size like ex, or just use the computed font-size
16:13:57 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: computed might not be a problems, some fonts go outside of the used em-box anyway
16:14:21 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: would prefer to stick with what 2.1 says: em is computed font-size
16:14:42 [SimonSapin]
TabAtkins: … used-value time units … ?
16:14:49 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: you need font data for ex
16:15:59 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: want to respond to downloadable font, but keep the units computed-value-time
16:16:17 [dbaron]
dbaron: The computed value changes when the font loads.
16:16:42 [SimonSapin]
florian: could you clarify why?
16:16:59 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: complicating the space of computed value is a huge complexity
16:17:17 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: changing all properties with length units
16:17:24 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: lot of implementation work
16:17:35 [SimonSapin]
TabAtkins: happy with this if you are
16:18:26 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin: we already rejected making vh/vw used-value-time for the same reasons
16:18:31 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: not quite the same reasons
16:19:10 [SimonSapin]
TabAtkins: viewport units decision was clearer because of dependency on layout
16:19:29 [SimonSapin]
TabAtkins: depending on downloaded resources is a greyer area
16:19:37 [Zakim]
16:19:55 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: summary: 2 points to resolve on
16:20:04 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: 1. em units remain = to computed font-size
16:20:11 [SimonSapin]
I agree
16:20:15 [bkardell]
I agree
16:20:20 [Zakim]
16:20:31 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: 2. ex/ch units relative to the metrics of the 1st available font
16:20:31 [SteveZ]
16:20:38 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: used value of that metric
16:20:47 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett: requires update to css-values
16:20:53 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: yes, will do
16:21:07 [BradK]
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16:21:28 [dbaron]
May be worth mentioning that TPAC registration is open:
16:21:50 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin: ML comment: ex has no character for input to font matching algo
16:22:03 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett: that’s in css-fonts now, css-values only need to use that
16:22:17 [SimonSapin]
glazou: do we all agree of the two parts? objections?
16:22:34 [SimonSapin]
RESOLVED: adopt fantasai’s proposal
16:22:54 [SimonSapin]
glazou: provided the other issue is resolved, Fonts go to LC
16:23:09 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett: defer the ... issue to next week
16:23:23 [SimonSapin]
Topic: CSS3 Text
16:23:26 [fantasai]
16:23:34 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: interaction of text-align and text-align-???
16:23:34 [glazou]
plh, and resolve better phone numbers ?-)
16:23:44 [SimonSapin]
16:24:10 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: 1 rule to justify the last line, other rule to center all
16:24:31 [glazou]
plh, sigh
16:24:43 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: [explains as in the email]
16:25:55 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: people expect text-align-list to be a longhand of text-align, it’s not
16:26:35 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: making it a shorthand can break existing content if the shorthand is set just after
16:26:53 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: backward-compat concern, -last shipped in IE6
16:27:18 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: want to know the syntax to run queries against db of existing content
16:27:30 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: expect usage to be none, but will check
16:27:43 [SimonSapin]
glazou: only engine shipping it?
16:27:58 [SimonSapin]
s/to be none/not to be none/
16:28:04 [Zakim]
16:28:04 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: Mozilla to
16:28:09 [SimonSapin]
16:28:22 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: only a problem in one particular order
16:28:48 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: concern with Chinise/Japanese typically use text-align-last: justify
16:29:11 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: having it apply only with 'justify' makes sense when you turn it off and specify 'center' afterwards
16:29:23 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: much more frequent than you might think
16:29:38 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: proposal to add a justify-all value
16:29:55 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: people on this call are not the ones actually using it
16:30:23 [SimonSapin]
stearns: use case to set text-align-last justify when text-align is not justify?
16:30:29 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: not sure
16:30:42 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: chinese typically all
16:30:55 [SimonSapin]
stearns: IE solution to have it only apply ??? makes sense
16:31:13 [SimonSapin]
stearns: Don’t the complexity of this proposal if we standardize on IE’s behavior
16:31:20 [stearns]
s/???/when text-align is justify/
16:31:46 [SimonSapin]
glazou: two proposals here, what do people think?
16:31:55 [Zakim]
16:32:22 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: when would you use it? other than text-align : justify
16:32:38 [SimonSapin]
florian: sounds at least unusual
16:32:54 [SimonSapin]
stearns: use case unusual, not sure properties are really separate
16:33:04 [SimonSapin]
stearns: letter-spacing eg. changes justification
16:33:24 [SimonSapin]
stearns: this wouldn’t be the only case of depending on another property having another value
16:34:20 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: [editorial comment]
16:34:24 [SimonSapin]
16:34:31 [dbaron]
Rossen said he'd prefer backwards compan
16:34:33 [dbaron]
16:34:50 [SteveZ]
rosen: if we were starting fresh then we should have just one property with an optional value for "last line"
16:34:57 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: so what are we doing with this property?
16:35:18 [SimonSapin]
glazou: depencencies between properties are weird, but backward compat is valuable too
16:35:26 [SteveZ]
rosen: But, we have two shipping implementations that use two properties
16:35:47 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: we’re certainly gonna keep supporting what we have
16:36:03 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: the property is not new
16:36:24 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: it would have been better to specify this as a value, but it’s been out for years
16:36:45 [SimonSapin]
glazou: decide that we are waiting for your numbers?
16:36:59 [SimonSapin]
glazou: if there is little usage, there is an impact
16:37:10 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: how do you define "little"? relative to language, …
16:37:21 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: also, what kind of data to mine
16:37:43 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: gonna do it against web content, but expect more usage in Word docs converted to HTML
16:38:04 [SimonSapin]
koji: it doesn’t use this property, it uses other MS extensions
16:38:15 [fantasai]
koji: As far as I tested Word 2010, it export to HTML doesn't use this property
16:38:19 [BradK]
I like 'text-align: justify all' that would override 'text-align-last: <whatever>'.
16:38:33 [fantasai]
It uses 'text-justify: distribute-all-lines'
16:39:02 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: which is not in any spec of ours
16:39:12 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: yeah, we have this one
16:39:20 [SimonSapin]
glazou: what do we do?
16:39:41 [SimonSapin]
florian: if triggered by text-align: justify, don’t we have what we want?
16:39:50 [koji]
Word 2013 uses "text-align:justify;text-justify:distribute-all-lines"
16:40:20 [SimonSapin]
(let’s rename it to distribute-all-the-lines)
16:40:34 [SimonSapin]
glazou: don’t know what to do, it’s up to implementers
16:40:46 [SimonSapin]
dbaron: people worried about compat should check
16:40:49 [fantasai]
Simon, it's a different property
16:40:56 [fantasai]
renaming it won't fix anything
16:41:04 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: Word docs are harder to mine
16:41:16 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: Word does not use this
16:41:26 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: 2013 yes, previous versions unknown
16:41:33 [bkardell]
is it plausible that corp IT environments that standardized on IE way back might have this? You wouldnt be able to mine that either, right?
16:41:36 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: by next week will have data
16:41:45 [SimonSapin]
glazou: defer resolution to next week?
16:41:49 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: ok with that
16:42:22 [BradK]
Converted-to-html word documents are a blight on the Internet
16:42:33 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: we are not gonna back out this property
16:42:50 [SimonSapin]
glazou: this data only breaking if translating to HTML?
16:43:07 [SimonSapin]
Rossen: with Sharepoint presenting everything as HTML, it’s not that rare
16:43:29 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: issue only if the order is text-align-last then text-align
16:43:49 [fantasai]
fantasai: If Word is emitting text-align first, then there is no problem
16:44:29 [SimonSapin]
glazou: let’s wait for the data, revisit next week
16:44:40 [glazou]
16:44:52 [SimonSapin]
Topic: Allowing 'letter-spacing: <length>' to justify
16:45:13 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: current rules prevent justification when letter-spacing is not normal
16:45:29 [lmclister]
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16:45:32 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: avoid this we allow justification for length, and have normal be 0
16:45:47 [fantasai]
s/be/compute to/
16:45:53 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett asks clarification
16:46:03 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: no letter-spacing value would constrain justification
16:46:29 [liam]
[I can't call in because of noise here but note that letterspacing should not normally be used for justification in non-newspaper texts even in English (and obviously never for German)]
16:46:36 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett: justification should just be additional spacing, not proportional
16:46:52 [SimonSapin]
jdaggett: only apply to text-justify: distribute, right?
16:47:00 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: also 'auto', in CJK text
16:47:46 [SimonSapin]
liam, so there should be a way to prevent letter spacing as justification?
16:48:01 [liam]
the default should be, do not use letter spacing for justification
16:48:07 [stearns]
+1 to fantasai's solution
16:48:13 [SimonSapin]
glazou: comments?
16:48:19 [liam]
it considerably reduces comprehension when letterspacing is uneven
16:48:19 [fantasai]
liam, the default is already to allow letter-spacing for justification
16:48:37 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: if I set letter-spacing:0 I do not get letter spacing for justify
16:48:50 [liam]
then that's broken, but at the very least there needs to be a way to disable it
16:48:54 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: currently yes, but there are documents that require otherwise
16:49:11 [SimonSapin]
stearns: proposal: set "0 fixed" to disable justification
16:49:37 [fantasai]
fantasai: letter-spacing: 0 currently does not allow justification per spec, but implementations don't follow
16:50:13 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: just a question of existing impl or deeper?
16:50:16 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: both
16:50:22 [BradK]
Would letter-spacing be a minimal value for justification?
16:50:36 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: we don’t have a way to ???
16:50:49 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: current rules prevent justification if you also have tracking
16:50:53 [stearns]
BradK: yes, it would set a minimum, but could be increased by justification
16:50:59 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: this would allow tracking and also allow justification
16:51:05 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: which the current spec does not allow
16:51:14 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: more consistent with word-spacing
16:51:30 [BradK]
Alan, that seems reasonable.
16:51:33 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: solving problems + gain consistency
16:51:34 [Zakim]
16:51:51 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: loosing ability to disable justification in letter spacing, but could add a keyword for that
16:52:09 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: bothered by letter-spacing applying to CJK
16:52:13 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: why?
16:52:36 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: because CJK are different from letters, hiragana makes it messy
16:52:49 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: we don’t want a separate property for each script
16:53:13 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: part of the problem is making it work in a situation where letter spacing was not intended to work
16:53:23 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: not sure this makes sense
16:53:28 [bkardell]
maybe we can punt this back to the list until next week and move on with other items?
16:53:42 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: some want to distribute space
16:53:54 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: in other cases they don’t
16:54:45 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: concern: making letter-spacing work for CJK will have bad side-effets where it’s unexpected
16:54:54 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: it has always worked
16:55:13 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: issue is whether using letter-spacing prop disables justification
16:55:40 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: latin users would expect to disable justification
16:55:51 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: that’s why mixing them is a problem
16:56:14 [SimonSapin]
TabAtkins: given that word-spacing does not disable justification, don’t understand why you expect that
16:56:27 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: letter-spacing is much less frequently used
16:56:49 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: precise adjustments, don’t want justification in that context
16:57:23 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: would like to solve the problem we have here, and add control for disabling justification or not later
16:57:51 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: users that expect justification disabled are surprised
16:57:58 [tantek]
I think for further progress on this it will have to go to email or IRC
16:58:05 [liam]
[sample use case, long legal contract all in caps/small-caps with letterspacing]
16:58:05 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: implementations don’t do justification between latin letters
16:58:13 [tantek]
re: use-cases for suppressing letter-spacing and/or justification
16:58:14 [BradK]
If people don't want justification with their letter-spacing, they can just use text-align to turn off justification
16:58:14 [glazou]
tantek, we only have 1min on the call
16:58:16 [glazou]
but yes
16:58:20 [tantek]
glazou exactly
16:59:01 [dbaron]
fantasai: we don't have content that ... because implementations don't ..., but we do have content that specifies letter-spacing:0 and expects CJK text to justify
16:59:08 [SimonSapin]
glazou: defer to email
16:59:21 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: are people gonna participate? been open on the list for a long time
16:59:49 [tantek]
sounds like some actions
16:59:59 [SimonSapin]
SteveZ: yes, will discuss on email
17:00:05 [dbaron]
TPAC registration is open:
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17:00:24 [glazou]
florian, je reste
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- +1.415.832.aaaa
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17:00:45 [glazou]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:00:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, shezbaig_wk, TabAtkins
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Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
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Attendees were glazou, krit, Plh, rhauck, plinss, BradK, Stearns, +1.520.280.aabb, bkardell, +1.212.318.aacc, +47.23.69.aadd, florian, jdaggett, leif, +1.610.324.aaee, dael, smfr,
17:01:07 [Zakim]
... +1.212.318.aaff, jerenkrantz, shezbaig_wk, [IPcaller], SimonSapin, +1.206.675.aagg, sylvaing, nvdbleek, fantasai, koji, Tantek, Rossen, SteveZ, dbaron, TabAtkins
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19:52:43 [stearns]
fantasai: TabAtkins: sanity check - allowing 'letter-spacing: 0 fixed' does not disallow 'letter-spacing: -1 0 1' for min/desired/max later, correct?
19:53:07 [TabAtkins]
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20:00:30 [stearns]
liam: I disagree with your assertion earlier that letterspacing shouldn't be used for justification in non-newspaper English, btw.
20:00:44 [stearns]
liam: it just should be used much much less than word spacing
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20:15:12 [fantasai]
stearns: yeah, no problem
20:16:30 [liam]
stearns, yes, I'm fine with "much less"
20:16:57 [liam]
(except in languages where it's used for emphasis)
20:17:14 [stearns]
liam: agreed. And I'd argue that newspapers are doing it wrong :)
20:17:23 [liam]
20:17:39 [liam]
possibly depends on the paper although also on whatever the defaults were for Atex
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20:57:55 [TabAtkins]
Woo! After two days of bugfixing the processor, I can confirm that you can switch to my new preprocessor from Bert's with no changes needed other than deleting the existing header/footer boilerplate, and adding a metadata block.
21:03:04 [stearns]
TabAtkins: grats
21:03:26 [TabAtkins]
I'm also pretty sure I've squashed all the unicode bugs, so there's that.
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21:05:19 [TabAtkins]
Of course, now I'm making all the changes to the Syntax source that I wrote the preprocessor for. But it's nice to know that it's a drop-in replacement. ^_^
21:05:43 [TabAtkins]
(I was forced to switch off of Bert's for Syntax, because Bert's processor decided that <pre>s aren't allowed to contain <a>s.
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22:27:42 [liam]
except with the forrin spelling of colour, oops ;)
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22:44:54 [stearns]
liam: you just need to put it in an '@⚐ Canadian English' block -
22:47:37 [liam]
stearns, :) @⚐ neat
22:48:51 [liam]
had not seen this, good show chaps!
22:49:47 [stearns]
22:51:52 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Yay!
22:52:03 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I'm looking forward to that
22:52:12 [TabAtkins]
To what?
22:52:21 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: preprocessor switch
22:52:25 [TabAtkins]
Ah, yeah.
22:52:33 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Do you have automatic cross-reference yet?
22:52:49 [TabAtkins]
Not yet! I've got the data from plinss, I just haven't taken the time to use it yet.
22:53:03 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: kk
22:53:04 [zcorpan]
are you writing a new preprocessor?
22:53:12 [TabAtkins]
zcorpan: Been writing one.
22:53:27 [TabAtkins]
zcorpan: Meant to be an upgrade of Bert's, so it's useful as a drop-in replacement for CSS specs.
22:53:47 [TabAtkins]
And much easier to maintain/update than Bert's collection of awk and perl. ^_^
22:53:50 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Can we have your preprocessor in csswg/bin so that everyone who pulls the specs can regen them offline?
22:53:52 [zcorpan]
TabAtkins: have you looked at anolis? it's a drop-in replacement for Bert's preprocessor too
22:54:09 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: It's at my github for now.
22:54:22 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: That's not discoverable
22:54:34 [TabAtkins]
zcorpan: I didn't, partially because I wanted to write one myself. ^_^
22:54:47 [TabAtkins]
But also, it doesn't currently have some features I liked, like Markdown paragraphs.
22:56:19 [TabAtkins]
liam: Regarding colors, what you really want is color(var(fg) contrast) <>
22:57:49 [TabAtkins]
liam: Given a base color (the var(fg) part), that pops out a color with sufficient accessibility contrast.
22:58:22 [liam]
TabAtkins, interesting, is it implemented? :)
22:58:23 [TabAtkins]
So that would be used like "var-fg: ...; color: var(fg); background: color(var(fg) contrast);".
22:58:33 [TabAtkins]
Of course not, that's why I had to link to my github spec repo. ^_^
22:58:41 [liam]
just checking :)
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