15:25:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:25:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/06/26-css-irc
15:25:27 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:25:27 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
15:25:31 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:25:38 <glazou> glazou has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0606.html
15:30:45 <bkardell> bkardell has joined #css
15:42:49 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
15:44:47 <florian> florian has joined #css
15:49:16 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
15:55:11 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:19 <Zakim> +??P0
15:55:22 <glazou> Zakim, ??P0 is me
15:55:22 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:56:47 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
15:56:59 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:57:03 <jdaggett> jdaggett has joined #css
15:57:08 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
15:57:26 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa has krit
15:57:26 <Zakim> +krit; got it
15:57:29 <Zakim> +Plh
15:57:34 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa has rhauck
15:57:34 <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
15:57:46 <jerenkrantz_> jerenkrantz_ has joined #css
15:58:13 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
15:58:27 <BradK> BradK has joined #CSS
15:58:36 <Zakim> +plinss
15:59:25 <Zakim> +BradK
15:59:28 <leif> leif has joined #css
15:59:34 <Zakim> +Stearns
15:59:40 <Zakim> + +1.520.280.aabb
15:59:57 <glazou> Zakim, aabb is bkardell
15:59:57 <Zakim> +bkardell; got it
16:00:16 <dael> dael has joined #css
16:00:25 <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aacc
16:00:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:00:41 <jerenkrantz_> Zakim: aacc is me
16:00:44 <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aadd
16:00:47 <shezbaig_wk> shezbaig_wk has joined #css
16:00:48 <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
16:00:48 <Zakim> +florian; got it
16:00:52 <jdaggett> zakim, ipcaller.a is me
16:00:52 <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
16:00:53 <leif> Zakim, I am aadd
16:00:53 <Zakim> +leif; got it
16:00:59 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:01:02 <plinss> bkardell: also you should do this: http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
16:01:12 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
16:01:19 <jerenkrantz_> Zakim: aacc is jerenkrantz
16:01:22 <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aaee
16:01:23 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (68%), [IPcaller] (43%)
16:01:40 <dael> Zakim, aaee is me
16:01:40 <Zakim> +dael; got it
16:01:43 <Zakim> +smfr
16:01:49 <bkardell> plinss: done
16:01:50 <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aaff
16:01:50 <jerenkrantz_> Zakim, aacc is jerenkrantz
16:01:50 <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
16:01:52 <koji> koji has joined #css
16:02:04 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
16:02:04 <shezbaig_wk> zakim, aaff is me
16:02:05 <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk; got it
16:02:26 <Zakim> +??P42
16:02:45 <glazou> Zakim, ??P42 is SimonSapin
16:02:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:02:46 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:02:56 <SimonSapin> SimonSapin has joined #css
16:02:56 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
16:02:59 <fantasai> oops
16:03:26 <glazou> eheh bad UI ?
16:03:28 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:03:29 <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aagg
16:03:30 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
16:03:30 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
16:03:33 <bkardell> I am happy to say none of these are the noob
16:03:38 <glazou> Zakim, aagg is sylvaing
16:03:39 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:03:47 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
16:04:00 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (55%), dael (61%), BradK (4%), sylvaing (98%)
16:04:03 <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk.a
16:04:05 <glazou> Zakim, mute sylvaing
16:04:05 <Zakim> sylvaing should now be muted
16:04:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:04:14 <Zakim> +nvdbleek
16:04:18 <glazou> sylvaing, you muted on your end, right ?
16:04:20 <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
16:04:20 <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
16:04:25 <fantasai> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
16:04:25 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:04:37 <glazou> Zakim, unmute sylvaing
16:04:37 <Zakim> sylvaing should no longer be muted
16:05:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:05:15 <c_palmer> c_palmer has joined #css
16:05:23 <koji> zakim, ipcaller.a is me
16:05:23 <Zakim> +koji; got it
16:05:31 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, +1.415.832.aaaa, Plh, plinss, BradK, Stearns, bkardell, jerenkrantz, [IPcaller], jdaggett, leif, dael, smfr, shezbaig_wk, SimonSapin, sylvaing,
16:05:34 <Zakim> ... shezbaig_wk.a, fantasai, nvdbleek (muted), koji
16:05:34 <Zakim> +1.415.832.aaaa has rhauck
16:05:34 <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
16:05:53 <SimonSapin> ScribeNick: SimonSapin
16:06:10 <SimonSapin> glazou: extra items?
16:06:22 <SimonSapin> Topic: Fonts LC
16:06:27 <Zakim> +Tantek
16:06:33 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: had lots of comments
16:06:34 <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
16:06:34 <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
16:06:39 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: 2 issues
16:06:52 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
16:07:01 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: OM of @font-feature-values, waiting on a new piece of WebIDL
16:07:07 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: as is Varibales
16:07:30 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: Second issue: font-size-adjust vs. em/ex/ch units
16:07:37 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:07:45 <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
16:07:45 <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
16:07:47 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: ask for LC next tuesday, resolve issues during LC period
16:07:53 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
16:07:56 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:08:09 <SimonSapin> fantasai: would like to resolve unit issue now
16:08:24 <SimonSapin> glazou: are you ok for LC if we do that?
16:08:26 <SimonSapin> fantasai: yes
16:08:34 <SimonSapin> glazou: other opinions?
16:08:40 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:08:49 <Zakim> +??P83
16:08:56 <TabAtkins> zakim, P83 is me
16:08:56 <Zakim> sorry, TabAtkins, I do not recognize a party named 'P83'
16:09:02 <SimonSapin> glazou: being heavy user of the OM I’m worried about that issue
16:09:03 <TabAtkins> zakim, ??P83 is me
16:09:03 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
16:09:29 <SimonSapin> glazou: LC means almost finished, dealing with issue after LC is weird
16:09:30 <cpalmer> cpalmer has joined #css
16:09:37 <SimonSapin> glazou: but don’t want to block
16:09:56 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: relies on Map… struct, not defined yet in WebIDL
16:10:14 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: heycam promised it this week
16:10:19 <sgalineau> sgalineau has joined #css
16:10:37 <SimonSapin> glazou: within a week we should resolve issues?
16:10:39 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: yes
16:10:50 <SimonSapin> glazou: Then I withdraw my concern
16:11:02 <SimonSapin> glazou: Other opinions?
16:11:16 <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: Fonts LC after resolving the 2 issues
16:11:26 <SimonSapin> glazou, is that right?
16:11:41 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0517.html
16:11:46 <SimonSapin> fantasai: issue in computing ch/em/ex unit with font-size-adjust
16:11:51 <myakura> myakura has joined #css
16:12:05 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0590.html
16:12:24 <SimonSapin> fantasai: proposal is: ex/ch computed against the used font size, with metrics
16:12:45 <SimonSapin> fantasai: accounting for font-size-adjust and other things/substitutions
16:13:12 <SimonSapin> fantasai: we really want to match the glyphs; need font data anyway, might as well account for everything we can
16:13:37 <SimonSapin> fantasai: em could go either way, either use the used size like ex, or just use the computed font-size
16:13:57 <SimonSapin> fantasai: computed might not be a problems, some fonts go outside of the used em-box anyway
16:14:21 <SimonSapin> dbaron: would prefer to stick with what 2.1 says: em is computed font-size
16:14:42 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: … used-value time units … ?
16:14:49 <SimonSapin> dbaron: you need font data for ex
16:15:59 <SimonSapin> dbaron: want to respond to downloadable font, but keep the units computed-value-time
16:16:17 <dbaron> dbaron: The computed value changes when the font loads.
16:16:42 <SimonSapin> florian: could you clarify why?
16:16:59 <SimonSapin> dbaron: complicating the space of computed value is a huge complexity
16:17:17 <SimonSapin> dbaron: changing all properties with length units
16:17:24 <SimonSapin> dbaron: lot of implementation work
16:17:35 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: happy with this if you are
16:18:26 <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: we already rejected making vh/vw used-value-time for the same reasons
16:18:31 <SimonSapin> fantasai: not quite the same reasons
16:19:10 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: viewport units decision was clearer because of dependency on layout
16:19:29 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: depending on downloaded resources is a greyer area
16:19:37 <Zakim> -BradK
16:19:55 <SimonSapin> fantasai: summary: 2 points to resolve on
16:20:04 <SimonSapin> fantasai: 1. em units remain = to computed font-size
16:20:11 <SimonSapin> I agree
16:20:15 <bkardell> I agree
16:20:20 <Zakim> +BradK
16:20:31 <SimonSapin> fantasai: 2. ex/ch units relative to the metrics of the 1st available font
16:20:31 <SteveZ> +1
16:20:38 <SimonSapin> fantasai: used value of that metric
16:20:47 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: requires update to css-values
16:20:53 <SimonSapin> fantasai: yes, will do
16:21:07 <BradK> BradK has joined #CSS
16:21:28 <dbaron> May be worth mentioning that TPAC registration is open: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2013AprJun/0138.html https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2013AprJun/0140.html
16:21:50 <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: ML comment: ex has no character for input to font matching algo
16:22:03 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: that’s in css-fonts now, css-values only need to use that
16:22:17 <SimonSapin> glazou: do we all agree of the two parts? objections?
16:22:34 <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: adopt fantasai’s proposal
16:22:54 <SimonSapin> glazou: provided the other issue is resolved, Fonts go to LC
16:23:09 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: defer the ... issue to next week
16:23:23 <SimonSapin> Topic: CSS3 Text
16:23:26 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0263.html
16:23:34 <SimonSapin> fantasai: interaction of text-align and text-align-???
16:23:34 <glazou> plh, and resolve better phone numbers ?-)
16:23:44 <SimonSapin> s/???/last/
16:24:10 <SimonSapin> fantasai: 1 rule to justify the last line, other rule to center all
16:24:31 <glazou> plh, sigh
16:24:43 <SimonSapin> fantasai: [explains as in the email]
16:25:55 <SimonSapin> fantasai: people expect text-align-list to be a longhand of text-align, it’s not
16:26:35 <SimonSapin> fantasai: making it a shorthand can break existing content if the shorthand is set just after
16:26:53 <SimonSapin> fantasai: backward-compat concern, -last shipped in IE6
16:27:18 <SimonSapin> Rossen: want to know the syntax to run queries against db of existing content
16:27:30 <SimonSapin> Rossen: expect usage to be none, but will check
16:27:43 <SimonSapin> glazou: only engine shipping it?
16:27:58 <SimonSapin> s/to be none/not to be none/
16:28:04 <Zakim> -dbaron
16:28:04 <SimonSapin> fantasai: Mozilla to
16:28:09 <SimonSapin> s/to/too/
16:28:22 <SimonSapin> fantasai: only a problem in one particular order
16:28:48 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: concern with Chinise/Japanese typically use text-align-last: justify
16:29:11 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: having it apply only with 'justify' makes sense when you turn it off and specify 'center' afterwards
16:29:23 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: much more frequent than you might think
16:29:38 <SimonSapin> fantasai: proposal to add a justify-all value
16:29:55 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: people on this call are not the ones actually using it
16:30:23 <SimonSapin> stearns: use case to set text-align-last justify when text-align is not justify?
16:30:29 <SimonSapin> fantasai: not sure
16:30:42 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: chinese typically all
16:30:55 <SimonSapin> stearns: IE solution to have it only apply ??? makes sense
16:31:13 <SimonSapin> stearns: Don’t the complexity of this proposal if we standardize on IE’s behavior
16:31:20 <stearns> s/???/when text-align is justify/
16:31:46 <SimonSapin> glazou: two proposals here, what do people think?
16:31:55 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:32:22 <SimonSapin> Rossen: when would you use it? other than text-align : justify
16:32:38 <SimonSapin> florian: sounds at least unusual
16:32:54 <SimonSapin> stearns: use case unusual, not sure properties are really separate
16:33:04 <SimonSapin> stearns: letter-spacing eg. changes justification
16:33:24 <SimonSapin> stearns: this wouldn’t be the only case of depending on another property having another value
16:34:20 <SimonSapin> Rossen: [editorial comment]
16:34:24 <SimonSapin> :/
16:34:31 <dbaron> Rossen said he'd prefer backwards compan
16:34:33 <dbaron> compat
16:34:50 <SteveZ> rosen: if we were starting fresh then we should have just one property with an optional value for "last line"
16:34:57 <SimonSapin> Rossen: so what are we doing with this property?
16:35:18 <SimonSapin> glazou: depencencies between properties are weird, but backward compat is valuable too
16:35:26 <SteveZ> rosen: But, we have two shipping implementations that use two properties
16:35:47 <SimonSapin> Rossen: we’re certainly gonna keep supporting what we have
16:36:03 <SimonSapin> Rossen: the property is not new
16:36:24 <SimonSapin> Rossen: it would have been better to specify this as a value, but it’s been out for years
16:36:45 <SimonSapin> glazou: decide that we are waiting for your numbers?
16:36:59 <SimonSapin> glazou: if there is little usage, there is an impact
16:37:10 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: how do you define "little"? relative to language, …
16:37:21 <SimonSapin> Rossen: also, what kind of data to mine
16:37:43 <SimonSapin> Rossen: gonna do it against web content, but expect more usage in Word docs converted to HTML
16:38:04 <SimonSapin> koji: it doesn’t use this property, it uses other MS extensions
16:38:15 <fantasai> koji: As far as I tested Word 2010, it export to HTML doesn't use this property
16:38:19 <BradK> I like 'text-align: justify all' that would override 'text-align-last: <whatever>'.
16:38:33 <fantasai> It uses 'text-justify: distribute-all-lines'
16:39:02 <SimonSapin> fantasai: which is not in any spec of ours
16:39:12 <SimonSapin> Rossen: yeah, we have this one
16:39:20 <SimonSapin> glazou: what do we do?
16:39:41 <SimonSapin> florian: if triggered by text-align: justify, don’t we have what we want?
16:39:50 <koji> Word 2013 uses "text-align:justify;text-justify:distribute-all-lines"
16:40:20 <SimonSapin> (let’s rename it to distribute-all-the-lines)
16:40:34 <SimonSapin> glazou: don’t know what to do, it’s up to implementers
16:40:46 <SimonSapin> dbaron: people worried about compat should check
16:40:49 <fantasai> Simon, it's a different property
16:40:56 <fantasai> renaming it won't fix anything
16:41:04 <SimonSapin> Rossen: Word docs are harder to mine
16:41:16 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: Word does not use this
16:41:26 <SimonSapin> Rossen: 2013 yes, previous versions unknown
16:41:33 <bkardell> is it plausible that corp IT environments that standardized on IE way back might have this?  You wouldnt be able to mine that either, right?
16:41:36 <SimonSapin> Rossen: by next week will have data
16:41:45 <SimonSapin> glazou: defer resolution to next week?
16:41:49 <SimonSapin> Rossen: ok with that
16:42:22 <BradK> Converted-to-html word documents are a blight on the Internet
16:42:33 <SimonSapin> Rossen: we are not gonna back out this property
16:42:50 <SimonSapin> glazou: this data only breaking if translating to HTML?
16:43:07 <SimonSapin> Rossen: with Sharepoint presenting everything as HTML, it’s not that rare
16:43:29 <SimonSapin> fantasai: issue only if the order is text-align-last then text-align
16:43:49 <fantasai> fantasai: If Word is emitting text-align first, then there is no problem
16:44:29 <SimonSapin> glazou: let’s wait for the data, revisit next week
16:44:40 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0280.html
16:44:52 <SimonSapin> Topic: Allowing 'letter-spacing: <length>' to justify
16:45:13 <SimonSapin> fantasai: current rules prevent justification when letter-spacing is not normal
16:45:29 <lmclister> lmclister has joined #css
16:45:32 <SimonSapin> fantasai: avoid this we allow justification for length, and have normal be 0
16:45:47 <fantasai> s/be/compute to/
16:45:53 <SimonSapin> jdaggett asks clarification
16:46:03 <SimonSapin> fantasai: no letter-spacing value would constrain justification
16:46:29 <liam> [I can't call in because of noise here but note that letterspacing should not normally be used for justification in non-newspaper texts even in English (and obviously never for German)]
16:46:36 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: justification should just be additional spacing, not proportional
16:46:52 <SimonSapin> jdaggett: only apply to text-justify: distribute, right?
16:47:00 <SimonSapin> fantasai: also 'auto', in CJK text
16:47:46 <SimonSapin> liam, so there should be a way to prevent letter spacing as justification?
16:48:01 <liam> the default should be, do not use letter spacing for justification
16:48:07 <stearns> +1 to fantasai's solution
16:48:13 <SimonSapin> glazou: comments?
16:48:19 <liam> it considerably reduces comprehension when letterspacing is uneven
16:48:19 <fantasai> liam, the default is already to allow letter-spacing for justification
16:48:37 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: if I set letter-spacing:0 I do not get letter spacing for justify
16:48:50 <liam> then that's broken, but at the very least there needs to be a way to disable it
16:48:54 <SimonSapin> fantasai: currently yes, but there are documents that require otherwise
16:49:11 <SimonSapin> stearns: proposal: set "0 fixed" to disable justification
16:49:37 <fantasai> fantasai: letter-spacing: 0 currently does not allow justification per spec, but implementations don't follow
16:50:13 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: just a question of existing impl or deeper?
16:50:16 <SimonSapin> fantasai: both
16:50:22 <BradK> Would letter-spacing be a minimal value for justification?
16:50:36 <SimonSapin> fantasai: we don’t have a way to ???
16:50:49 <SimonSapin> fantasai: current rules prevent justification if you also have tracking
16:50:53 <stearns> BradK: yes, it would set a minimum, but could be increased by justification
16:50:59 <SimonSapin> fantasai: this would allow tracking and also allow justification
16:51:05 <SimonSapin> fantasai: which the current spec does not allow
16:51:14 <SimonSapin> fantasai: more consistent with word-spacing
16:51:30 <BradK> Alan, that seems reasonable.
16:51:33 <SimonSapin> fantasai: solving problems + gain consistency
16:51:34 <Zakim> -jdaggett
16:51:51 <SimonSapin> fantasai: loosing ability to disable justification in letter spacing, but could add a keyword for that
16:52:09 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: bothered by letter-spacing applying to CJK
16:52:13 <SimonSapin> fantasai: why?
16:52:36 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: because CJK are different from letters, hiragana makes it messy
16:52:49 <SimonSapin> fantasai: we don’t want a separate property for each script
16:53:13 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: part of the problem is making it work in a situation where letter spacing was not intended to work
16:53:23 <SimonSapin> fantasai: not sure this makes sense
16:53:28 <bkardell> maybe we can punt this back to the list until next week and move on with other items?
16:53:42 <SimonSapin> fantasai: some want to distribute space
16:53:54 <SimonSapin> fantasai: in other cases they don’t
16:54:45 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: concern: making letter-spacing work for CJK will have bad side-effets where it’s unexpected
16:54:54 <SimonSapin> fantasai: it has always worked
16:55:13 <SimonSapin> fantasai: issue is whether using letter-spacing prop disables justification
16:55:40 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: latin users would expect to disable justification
16:55:51 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: that’s why mixing them is a problem
16:56:14 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: given that word-spacing does not disable justification, don’t understand why you expect that
16:56:27 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: letter-spacing is much less frequently used
16:56:49 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: precise adjustments, don’t want justification in that context
16:57:23 <SimonSapin> fantasai: would like to solve the problem we have here, and add control for disabling justification or not later
16:57:51 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: users that expect justification disabled are surprised
16:57:58 <tantek> I think for further progress on this it will have to go to email or IRC
16:58:05 <liam> [sample use case, long legal contract all in caps/small-caps with letterspacing]
16:58:05 <SimonSapin> fantasai: implementations don’t do justification between latin letters
16:58:13 <tantek> re: use-cases for suppressing letter-spacing and/or justification
16:58:14 <BradK> If people don't want justification with their letter-spacing, they can just use text-align to turn off justification
16:58:14 <glazou> tantek, we only have 1min on the call
16:58:16 <glazou> but yes
16:58:20 <tantek> glazou exactly
16:59:01 <dbaron> fantasai: we don't have content that ... because implementations don't ..., but we do have content that specifies letter-spacing:0 and expects CJK text to justify
16:59:08 <SimonSapin> glazou: defer to email
16:59:21 <SimonSapin> fantasai: are people gonna participate? been open on the list for a long time
16:59:49 <tantek> sounds like some actions
16:59:59 <SimonSapin> SteveZ: yes, will discuss on email
17:00:05 <dbaron> TPAC registration is open: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2013AprJun/0138.html https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2013AprJun/0140.html
17:00:18 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
17:00:21 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:00:21 <Zakim> -smfr
17:00:21 <Zakim> -Plh
17:00:21 <Zakim> -jerenkrantz
17:00:23 <Zakim> -leif
17:00:23 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:00:24 <Zakim> -bkardell
17:00:24 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:00:24 <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk.a
17:00:24 <glazou> florian, je reste
17:00:25 <Zakim> -dael
17:00:26 <Zakim> -BradK
17:00:26 <Zakim> -koji
17:00:28 <Zakim> -plinss
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17:00:29 <Zakim> -fantasai
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17:00:33 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:00:40 <Zakim> -Stearns
17:00:41 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:00:43 <Zakim> - +1.415.832.aaaa
17:00:44 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:00:45 <Zakim> -Tantek
17:00:45 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:00:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, shezbaig_wk, TabAtkins
17:00:55 <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk
17:00:58 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:01:06 <Zakim> -glazou
17:01:07 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:07 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, krit, Plh, rhauck, plinss, BradK, Stearns, +1.520.280.aabb, bkardell, +1.212.318.aacc, +47.23.69.aadd, florian, jdaggett, leif, +1.610.324.aaee, dael, smfr,
17:01:07 <Zakim> ... +1.212.318.aaff, jerenkrantz, shezbaig_wk, [IPcaller], SimonSapin, +1.206.675.aagg, sylvaing, nvdbleek, fantasai, koji, Tantek, Rossen, SteveZ, dbaron, TabAtkins
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19:52:43 <stearns> fantasai: TabAtkins: sanity check - allowing 'letter-spacing: 0 fixed' does not disallow 'letter-spacing: -1 0 1' for min/desired/max later, correct?
19:53:07 <TabAtkins> Sure.
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20:00:30 <stearns> liam: I disagree with your assertion earlier that letterspacing shouldn't be used for justification in non-newspaper English, btw.
20:00:44 <stearns> liam: it just should be used much much less than word spacing
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20:15:12 <fantasai> stearns: yeah, no problem
20:16:30 <liam> stearns, yes, I'm fine with "much less"
20:16:57 <liam> (except in languages where it's used for emphasis)
20:17:14 <stearns> liam: agreed. And I'd argue that newspapers are doing it wrong :)
20:17:23 <liam> :)
20:17:39 <liam> possibly depends on the paper although also on whatever the defaults were for Atex
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20:57:55 <TabAtkins> Woo!  After two days of bugfixing the processor, I can confirm that you can switch to my new preprocessor from Bert's with no changes needed other than deleting the existing header/footer boilerplate, and adding a metadata block.
21:03:04 <stearns> TabAtkins: grats
21:03:26 <TabAtkins> I'm also pretty sure I've squashed all the unicode  bugs, so there's that.
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21:05:19 <TabAtkins> Of course, now I'm making all the changes to the Syntax source that I wrote the preprocessor for.  But it's nice to know that it's a drop-in replacement.  ^_^
21:05:43 <TabAtkins> (I was forced to switch off of Bert's for Syntax, because Bert's processor decided that <pre>s aren't allowed to contain <a>s.
21:05:46 <TabAtkins> )
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22:27:42 <liam> except with the forrin spelling of colour, oops ;)
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22:44:54 <stearns> liam: you just need to put it in an '@⚐ Canadian English' block - http://adobe-webplatform.github.io/CSSLocalization/Overview.html
22:47:37 <liam> stearns, :) @⚐ neat
22:48:51 <liam> had not seen this, good show chaps!
22:49:47 <stearns> :)
22:51:52 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Yay!
22:52:03 <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm looking forward to that
22:52:12 <TabAtkins> To what?
22:52:21 <fantasai> TabAtkins: preprocessor switch
22:52:25 <TabAtkins> Ah, yeah.
22:52:33 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Do you have automatic cross-reference yet?
22:52:49 <TabAtkins> Not yet!  I've got the data from plinss, I just haven't taken the time to use it yet.
22:53:03 <fantasai> TabAtkins: kk
22:53:04 <zcorpan> are you writing a new preprocessor?
22:53:12 <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Been writing one.
22:53:27 <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Meant to be an upgrade of Bert's, so it's useful as a drop-in replacement for CSS specs.
22:53:47 <TabAtkins> And much easier to maintain/update than Bert's collection of awk and perl. ^_^
22:53:50 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Can we have your preprocessor in csswg/bin so that everyone who pulls the specs can regen them offline?
22:53:52 <zcorpan> TabAtkins: have you looked at anolis? it's a drop-in replacement for Bert's preprocessor too
22:54:09 <TabAtkins> fantasai: It's at my github for now.
22:54:22 <fantasai> TabAtkins: That's not discoverable
22:54:34 <TabAtkins> zcorpan: I didn't, partially because I wanted to write one myself.  ^_^
22:54:47 <TabAtkins> But also, it doesn't currently have some features I liked, like Markdown paragraphs.
22:56:19 <TabAtkins> liam: Regarding colors, what you really want is color(var(fg) contrast) <http://tabatkins.github.io/specs/css-color/Overview.html#contrast-adjuster>
22:57:49 <TabAtkins> liam: Given a base color (the var(fg) part), that pops out a color with sufficient accessibility contrast.
22:58:22 <liam> TabAtkins, interesting, is it implemented? :)
22:58:23 <TabAtkins> So that would be used like "var-fg: ...; color: var(fg); background: color(var(fg) contrast);".
22:58:33 <TabAtkins> Of course not, that's why I had to link to my github spec repo. ^_^
22:58:41 <liam> just checking :)
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