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14:55:18 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/06/11-html-media-irc
14:55:20 RRSAgent, make logs public
14:55:20 Zakim has joined #html-media
14:55:22 Zakim, this will be 63342
14:55:22 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:23 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
14:55:23 Date: 11 June 2013
14:56:24 joesteele has joined #html-media
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14:59:44 HTML_WG()11:00AM has now started
14:59:50 +[Adobe]
14:59:51 +davide
14:59:58 -davide
14:59:59 +Michael_Thornburgh
15:00:08 Zakim, Adobe is me
15:00:08 +joesteele; got it
15:00:16 +pladd
15:00:43 +Cyril
15:00:47 +davide
15:00:57 Cyril has joined #html-media
15:01:10 pladd has joined #html-media
15:01:18 Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:18 On the phone I see joesteele, Michael_Thornburgh, pladd, Cyril, davide
15:01:41 +[Microsoft]
15:01:53 +Mark_Watson
15:02:34 ddorwin has joined #html-media
15:02:42 BobLund has joined #html-media
15:02:55 markw has joined #html-media
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15:03:36 Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:36 On the phone I see joesteele, Michael_Thornburgh, pladd, Cyril, davide, [Microsoft], Mark_Watson
15:03:51 zakim, microsoft is me
15:03:51 +johnsim; got it
15:04:03 +Aaron_Colwell
15:04:20 Zakim, Mark_Watson is markw
15:04:20 +markw; got it
15:07:12 +[Microsoft]
15:07:18 zakim, [Microsoft] is me
15:07:18 +adrianba; got it
15:08:08 scribenick: adrianba
15:08:16 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Jun/0012.html
15:08:23 scribe: Adrian Bateman
15:08:32 chair: Aaron Colwell
15:08:37 +BobLund
15:08:39 rrsagent, make minutes
15:08:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/11-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
15:08:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Jun/0012.html
15:09:02 TOPIC: Roll call, introductions and selection of scribe
15:09:03 +ddorwin
15:09:11 paulc has joined #html-media
15:09:18 zakim, what is the code?
15:09:18 the conference code is 63342 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
15:09:26 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:26 On the phone I see joesteele, Michael_Thornburgh, pladd, Cyril, davide, johnsim, markw, Aaron_Colwell, adrianba, BobLund, ddorwin
15:09:29 acolwell: done
15:09:37 +[Microsoft]
15:09:52 TOPIC: Review of action items and issues
15:09:55 acolwell: none
15:10:05 TOPIC: MSE status and bugs
15:10:14 acolwell: since the last call i published 2 spec updates
15:10:20 ... on jun 1 and jun 5
15:10:33 ... tried to tackle as many of the pre-LC bugs as i could address
15:10:41 ... please take a look
15:10:47 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:10:47 +paulc; got it
15:10:55 ... still 11 bugs outstanding to discuss
15:10:56 Sorry I was late. Computer problems.
15:11:00 ... questions?
15:11:25 Chair: Paul Cotton
15:11:52 Link to open bugs: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&product=HTML%20WG&component=Media%20Source%20Extensions&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&list_id=15288
15:12:00 -> http://tinyurl.com/6pdnzej
15:12:00 Open bugs
15:12:55 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22148
15:13:11 Bug 22148 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22148
15:13:20 Request that we reconsider adding jitter to video quality metrics
15:13:30 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22148#c3
15:13:37 paulc: Most recent comment is from Jerry
15:13:46 ... this has a specific proposal right in it
15:14:05 acolwell: this got posted yesterday so i haven't had a bunch of time to think about it
15:14:17 ... what is the application going to do with this information
15:14:19 q+
15:14:33 ... if you're starting to see large delays then you should see the dropped count increase
15:14:40 ack ad
15:14:58 Jerry is out this week, so Adrian is responding.
15:15:22 q+
15:15:22 This gives another indication of the quality of the presentation and the app will want to fall back to a lower quality media file.
15:15:55 ack ac
15:16:14 acolwell: the other question is could this expose user agent specific behaviour?
15:16:30 ... if different UAs use different delays for when they consider to drop a frame, could that be problematic
15:16:43 q+
15:16:54 ... is this something people are worried about?
15:16:57 ack markw
15:17:31 markw: from what we understand, UAs could take different approaches before dropping so this metric allows you to detect that there are problems with playback before you get to dropped frames
15:18:10 paulc: mark, do you support adding this feature request?
15:18:28 markw: yes, because you need this in addition to dropped frames to allow consistent behaviour
15:18:39 paulc: shall we move on to another and allow more time to think about this?
15:18:43 q?
15:19:02 ???: why is this on the video quality element and not on the media source object?
15:19:29 s/???/Cyril/
15:20:05 acolwell: the reason this was added to the video quality object is because they are not MSE specific
15:20:20 ... considered as an initial proposal to HTML5 and applies whether MSE is used or not
15:20:44 Bu 22138: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22138
15:20:52 s/Bu/Bug/
15:21:16 q+
15:21:28 acolwell: waiting for the person to respond
15:23:09 adrianba: recommend resolving NEEDSINFO until we get the information needed to make the bug actionable
15:23:17 paulc: i will add that note to the bug
15:23:36 Bug 22137: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22137
15:24:02 acolwell: this is about changing the number of tracks during playback
15:24:09 ... this has come back a number of times
15:24:18 ... i tried to add a proposal to not have it become too complicated
15:24:21 June 11 reply: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22137#c4
15:24:52 ... suggestion is to allow it to be accepted but not guaranteed to be played
15:24:54 q+
15:25:03 ... looks like the filer is okay with this
15:25:18 ... but want the group to decide if this is something we want to do this version or not
15:25:24 ... haven't discussed as a group
15:25:34 q+
15:25:43 q-
15:26:03 We request the W3C relax the restrictions in section 11 that “apply to all initialization segments in a byte stream” – particularly requirements #1 (“The number and type of tracks must be consistent”) and #3 (“Track IDs must be the same across initialization segments if the segment describes multiple tracks of a single type”) – at least for audio tracks.
15:26:21 paulc: this is the key questions
15:26:21 Current spec is in section 12.
15:26:38 Cyril: you talk about a default flag in the track - what does this mean?
15:27:02 acolwell: in mpeg4 there is a default track flag, i think, not sure which box it is - tracks can be marked as the default for playback
15:27:18 ... most formats supporting multiple tracks have a way to indicated which should be played by default
15:27:40 Cyril: you may have multiple tracks enabled
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15:27:58 acolwell: if you don't have a default then you pick the first in the init segment
15:28:12 ack bob
15:28:16 q-
15:28:21 ack cyr
15:28:23 BobLund: not sure i understand the solution
15:28:34 ... UA does not need to support multiple audio and video tracks?
15:28:51 acolwell: no, in a single sourcebuffer, if there is one audio and one video track
15:29:02 ... then you add another segment with 2 audio and 2 video tracks
15:29:09 ... then the UA isn't required to expose the new tracks
15:29:27 ... different to the current track, which would reject playback all together
15:29:39 ... suggesting that don't reject it but don't guarantee playback
15:30:04 BobLund: so if the first init segment exposes multiple tracks then all have to be available?
15:30:11 acolwell: yes
15:30:32 ... we'd need to decide what happens if the number reduces
15:30:37 markw has joined #html-media
15:30:45 ... the text of the spec was written assuming the number doesn't change
15:31:08 Cyril: you want to bound the number of tracks by the number in the first init segment?
15:31:35 acolwell: my concern is that if things change during playback it is hard to ensure resources are available during playback
15:31:55 ... so during the first init this is the time the media engine can reserve the appropriate resources
15:32:03 ... and it is optional to add new resources later
15:32:27 ... even if there are multiple tracks in the first init segment then the UA isn't necessarily required to support them all
15:32:39 q+
15:33:00 ack bob
15:33:35 BobLund: i think the HTML spec in the media section defines what UAs should do with multiple tracks
15:33:52 ... and i am happy with your proposed solution
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15:34:29 Q from correspondent: Does an HTML5 UA have a concept of user preferences for audio language or accessibility?
15:35:40 q+
15:36:13 ack ad
15:36:35 Re above question: bob said he did not know if such guidance existed.
15:37:15 Adrian: Microsoft needs to check on acolwell's proposal.
15:37:37 Adrian: Just need more time to review.
15:38:00 Bug 22136: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22136
15:38:24 See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22136#c8
15:38:48 acolwell: i think they accept the proposal so i just need to make the change
15:38:50 q+
15:38:54 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22135
15:39:12 Ade's response: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22135#c4
15:39:28 acolwell: this is a request for track switching that is more general than mse
15:39:40 ... i don't think we should change the spec at this point
15:39:40 ack ad
15:40:29 Re solution to 22136 is the support mandatory?
15:40:42 adrianba: on 22136, is this support mandatory?
15:41:09 acolwell: i was trying to specify a mandatory base line so that you don't get a decode error depending on if support is there
15:41:24 zakim, who is making noise?
15:41:35 paulc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Aaron_Colwell (49%), adrianba (35%), [Microsoft] (10%)
15:42:26 ... i think from chrome's pov i think what i described worked
15:42:46 To be clear we are talking about 22136 here.
15:44:14 We will hold off implementing the fix for 22136 and Adrian will respond on the bug with his position.
15:44:27 Back 22135:
15:44:31 paulc: back on 22135
15:44:44 Ade's response: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22135#c4
15:44:49 paulc: does anybody else want to speak to this?
15:45:12 paulc: done
15:45:28 Bug 22134: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22134
15:45:45 acolwell: need to think about this some more
15:45:57 ... spec isn't clear on when content is rejected
15:46:21 paulc: that one is in your court then
15:46:25 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22117
15:46:54 paulc: bug says please provide text and suggested location
15:47:03 acolwell: still not quite sure what cyril is looking for
15:47:20 Cyril: i looked at all the must statements and most are related to UA
15:47:27 ... but some others are related to media segments
15:47:37 ... media segments must have this or that
15:47:48 ... which seemed like normative statements for generation of content
15:48:04 acolwell: i don't understand the difference between what a UA must do to play it vs. to create it
15:48:24 ... the spec outlines what happens in the UA
15:48:25 q+
15:48:46 paulc: we could reword so it says the UA must do something with the media segment
15:49:26 Cyril: worried about people suggesting creating segments that are not conforming
15:49:26 ack ad
15:49:43 acolwell: they would be segments that MSE UAs can't play
15:50:06 Cyril: was looking at this for writing conformance tests
15:50:56 adrianba: happy to edit the changes into the spec if someone writes them up
15:51:00 Cyril: i can do that
15:51:32 paulc: Cyril will identify the new text - change A to B
15:51:39 Cyril: shall i add them to the bug?
15:51:42 paulc: yes
15:51:58 22112: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22112
15:52:05 paulc: editorial, assigned to adrianba
15:52:29 22110: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22110
15:52:34 acolwell: also editorial
15:52:54 adrianba: wasn't sure what text to put there
15:53:09 acolwell: if the JS layer wants to indicate a decode error this is how
15:53:25 ... don't want to enumerate all the reasons
15:53:54 paulc: cyril, can you give us an example
15:54:22 Cyril: think the text that an app can signal a decode error but not sure when this would be used at all
15:54:43 acolwell: if the app does any parsing and doesn't get what it expects it would use this
15:54:51 Cyril: why wouldn't it get another segment
15:55:16 acolwell: MSE replaces the network layer and that layer is able to provide decode and network errors
15:55:29 ... and this provides that mechanism in MSE
15:55:36 q+
15:55:48 ack ad
15:55:57 adrianba: assign to me and i'll update the text
15:56:03 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22109
15:56:13 22109 - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22109
15:56:15 q+
15:57:01 acolwell: this is editorial, just need to figure out what to say
15:57:39 adrianba: would like to suggest that when someone files an editorial bug suggesting to rename something when please use propose a new name
15:58:09 acolwell: i will think about this
15:58:19 Bug 21431 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21431
15:58:26 paulc: did the changes but not marked as resolved
15:58:27 ack adrian
15:58:31 See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21431#c14
15:58:41 acolwell: glenn's comment was here are things that need to be done but there will be more
15:58:56 ... so i left it open for glenn to add any more
15:59:02 paulc: recommend sending a personal note to glenn
15:59:30 paulc: not clear if we will have resolved all bugs in 2 weeks
15:59:38 -pladd
15:59:39 ... when we do that we will do a CfC inside the TF to go to LC
16:00:29 ... you will have seen my regrets for next tuesday - i come back the following monday so either you get a late agenda, someone else does it, or i do it today as a proforma
16:00:47 adrianba: i'm fine with the day before
16:00:52 acolwell: i'm fine with that too
16:00:55 -BobLund
16:01:23 TOPIC: Adjournment
16:01:24 -joesteele
16:01:25 -Aaron_Colwell
16:01:28 -markw
16:01:29 paulc: adjourned
16:01:29 -davide
16:01:31 -johnsim
16:01:33 rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/11-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
16:01:35 -Michael_Thornburgh
16:01:37