00:16:11 RRSAgent has joined #css 00:16:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/06/05-css-irc 00:16:13 RRSAgent, make logs member 00:16:13 Zakim has joined #css 00:16:15 Zakim, this will be Style_CSS FP 00:16:15 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 00:16:16 Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference 00:16:16 Date: 05 June 2013 00:16:24 RRSAgent, make logs public 00:17:00 Zakim, remind us in 8 hours to go home 00:17:00 ok, dbaron 00:17:17 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 00:17:20 zcorpan has joined #css 00:17:52 RRSAgent, this meeting does not span midnight 00:17:52 I'm logging. I don't understand 'this meeting does not span midnight', dbaron. Try /msg RRSAgent help 00:18:27 r12a has joined #css 00:18:38 shans__ has joined #css 00:18:46 RRSAgent, start a new log at midnight 00:18:56 RRSAgent, you look lovely tonight 00:18:56 I'm logging. I don't understand 'you look lovely tonight', jdaggett. Try /msg RRSAgent help 00:21:01 Kazutaka has joined #CSS 00:23:51 krit has joined #css 00:25:38 myakura has joined #css 00:25:42 nikos has joined #css 00:25:57 stakagi has joined #css 00:25:58 jdovey has joined #css 00:26:15 jdaggett, send us a few meeting tables and power strips, we could use them immediately :-( 00:26:38 oh dear 00:27:15 why do you think we've not started yet ? 00:27:19 google japan has no power strips? 00:27:56 is brian birtles there? get him to run back to mozilla japan to fetch some 00:28:01 he's a good runner! 00:31:01 birtles is here :-) 00:32:49 haha 00:33:00 i saw a big order come in last week... 00:33:11 that stuff will kill you... ;) 00:34:00 yikes 00:43:13 krit has joined #css 00:47:46 jerenkrantz has joined #css 00:49:04 plh has joined #css 00:49:20 Tav has joined #css 00:49:35 fantasai has joined #css 00:49:42 jdovey has joined #css 00:51:29 Is there an agenda? Or, will we kick off with agenda bashing? 00:51:47 the latter, usually 00:52:09 jerenkrantz, what stearns said 00:52:24 beanbags & slingshots at the ready… 00:52:44 I took the opportunity to write http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/hosting 00:53:07 Since I am new, do we tend to do intros and is there a scribe for those who can't join here? 00:54:20 ScribeNick: dbaron 00:54:23 Topic: introductions 00:54:24 dbaron, I added a bullet item to that wiki page, telephone access 00:54:48 Cyril has joined #css 00:56:19 koji has joined #css 00:57:47 Present: Daniel Glazman (Disruptive Innovations), Elika Etemad (Mozilla), Simon Sapin, Philippe Le Hegaret (W3C), David Baron, Tamjong Bah, Rik Cabanier (Adobe), Dirk Schultze (Adobe), Cyril Concolato, Nikos Andronikos, Brian Birtles (Mozilla Japan), Cameron McCormack (Mozilla), Dean Jackson (Apple), ?? (NTT), Satori ??? (KDDI), Masataka Yakura (??), Tab Atkins (Google), Justin Erenkrantz (Bloomberg), Koji Ishii (Rakuten), Jim Dovey (Kobo), Shane Stevens (Googl 00:57:47 e), Alan Stearns (Adobe), Richard Ishida (W3C), Alan Stearns (Adobe), Bert Bos (W3C), Rossen Atanassov (Microsoft), Glenn Adams (Cox), Jet Villegas (Mozilla) 00:57:55 Koji has joined #css 00:57:59 http://www.pastebin.mozilla.org/2486303 00:58:01 Topic: Agenda 00:58:24 Peter: There's also an FXTF wiki for agenda items in addition to http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tokyo-2013#agenda 00:58:40 heycam: The only ordering restriction is doug wants to call in for text wrapping, prefers early 00:59:04 is shepazu available now-ish? 00:59:35 s/Satori ???/Satoru Takagi/ 01:00:04 zakim, room for 3? 01:00:05 ok, plinss; conference Team_(css)01:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 0200Z 01:00:16 shepazu ^ 01:00:30 s/Tamjong/Tavmjong/ 01:00:42 Present+ Peter Linss (HP) 01:00:59 s/?? (NTT)/Kazutaka Yamamoto(NTT)/ 01:03:09 Topic: Web Animations 01:04:00 spec link: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/web-anim/index.html 01:08:15 dialing to Zakim failed, switching back to projector 01:09:33 ROFL @ http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/image/52183066977 01:10:39 shepazu, yes feel free 01:12:31 birtles: wanted to give overview of web animation; getting close to asking for FPWD. 01:12:42 Team_(css)01:00Z has now started 01:12:44 britles: summary of where the spec has come from and what's in it now, so you know what you're looking at when review 01:12:49 +Doug_Schepers 01:13:14 birtles: microsoft asked that there be one model for animations on the web, not separate SVG animations and CSS animations, and suggested there should be an API. Request echoed by others. 01:13:27 -Doug_Schepers 01:13:28 Team_(css)01:00Z has ended 01:13:28 Attendees were Doug_Schepers 01:13:36 birtles: about 1 year ago, Adobe suggested I start concrete proposal for that; invited Shane (Google) to help, had suggestions about state machines 01:13:47 birtles: presented last year in Hamburg, and FXTF agreed to take it on as a work item 01:13:58 birtles: I've been working with Adobe and Google to produce specification 01:14:01 diagram: https://wiki.mozilla.org/images/f/f6/CSS-SVG-Web-Animations.png 01:14:08 birtles: overview of what's in it in this diagram 01:14:19 dino has joined #css 01:14:22 jerenkrantz has joined #css 01:14:33 birtles describes diagram 01:15:58 birtles: (part of diagram description) SVG features not in the model mostly are features that generate animations rather than animations themselves 01:16:58 birtles: We've cut a bunch of features recently; deferred integration with media and other features to keep it to a core model that roughly represents what's there already plus just a few extras 01:17:56 birtles: Specification is quite long, because (1) it's the union of existing technologies (2) tries to define a lot of gray areas, particularly with regards to SVG. We've incorporated the features SVG references from SMIL into the model. More explicitly defined. (3) Style of specification; many non-normative explanatory sections. 01:18:08 birtles: Apple's request to split into 2 parts: model first, then script api. 01:18:18 birtles: we're focusing on the model, but the API often generates the most controversy/feedback 01:18:48 birtles: going forwards, both Google and Mozilla have been talking about implementation strategies. Starting by implementing the model and pref-ing off the API, and then enabling the API bit by bit. 01:19:00 birtles: The API is the controversial bit and the bit we really want toget right (hard to change later). 01:19:19 birtles: About ready to ask for First Public Working Draft (FPWD) approval; a few edits we want to make first (drop a few interfaces). 01:19:31 birtles: So what's there is hopefully what we'll be sending out later this week. 01:19:42 birtles: So, just wanted to introduce this and ask if any immediate feedback or questions 01:19:56 dino: slightly concerned that media was dropped. One of the things we considered important from Apple's perspective. 01:20:10 dino: But I think this spec is in better shape before FPWD than most specs are after 5 or 6 WDs. 01:20:31 birtles: Decision to drop media references is very recent; we have spec text around. So if that's a strong request from other vendors then we could look at it. 01:20:44 dino: Nothing to stop a draft. Call out in the draft that it's been removed? 01:21:16 birtles: Also looking to make that a separate module so it doesn't have to wait for v2. If it matures quickly could look at pulling into v1, but anticipate implementation issues that could hold back core model. 01:21:38 stearns: on the other side: is there justification in the draft for the 4 new things in the model? 01:21:43 stearns: rather than just describing the union? 01:21:55 birtles: there isn't extensive justification for each feature 01:22:23 birtles: timing groups quite central to the model, come about with issues with SVG synchronization features. Custom effects could be dropped. iterationstart is a commonly requested feature and very minor addition 01:22:26 jerenkrantz has joined #css 01:22:38 birtles: no justification per se except for use cases at te start 01:23:26 dino: our feedback a while ago (but don't want to argue against this spec) was that we were concerned about the massive amount of new API to add in one step. Generally Web improvements are more successful when iterative rather than massive new feature (be interesting to know why?). 01:23:46 dino: also suggested that Apple's main interest in this type of work is very much in the form of declarative approaches to animation backed by a strong api. 01:23:57 dino: I think the strength of this spec is that it has a powerful API with a complete JS library. 01:24:14 dino: We're more interested in how a web developer not knowing much about animations mark up their document so that things happen over time in the document 01:24:29 dino: That's why we're interested in media 01:24:34 cabanier has joined #css 01:24:39 dino: The first way most people add time aspects to their document is video... we didn't necessarily want to have them add JS to do that. 01:24:57 Team_(css)01:00Z has now started 01:25:04 +[IPcaller] 01:25:09 dino: At SVG meeting earlier in this year, we discussed maybe a module to this spec to say that there's a way to apply changes in state over time, exposed e.g. by new CSS selector or class 01:25:23 dino: so a developer would approach authoring by saying from 10s-20s, this is the state that applies 01:25:29 hmm, no zakim conf at 26631 01:25:32 dino: so you could write CSS that applies when that state is ative 01:25:50 dino: so a CSS developer could easily understand this -- no JS. When state applies, apply transitions/animations/styles/whatever. 01:25:53 dino: but adjacent to this spec 01:25:59 dino: more like what we were hoping to use this spec for 01:26:17 birtles: I should emphasize that the API is not fundamental to the model; you can implement the model without the api. 01:26:31 birtles: Those parts which are outside the model but are in CSS or SVG are defined in separate specifications. 01:26:39 heycam: you guys aren't connected to zakim, i'm the "first participant" 01:26:46 birtles: For the SVG parts, we'd have an SVG specification (my next task). 01:26:59 birtles: Likewise CSS animations level 4 could be expressed in terms of that model 01:27:12 birtles: in media... doing as a separate model... 01:27:20 the 26631 one 01:27:27 dino: primary use case readalong books in iBooks -- a kids book that has, say, 3 lines of text on the page 01:27:46 dino: audio track in page, lines or words highlight along with audio track 01:27:51 dino: want to avoid using script 01:27:55 dirk: using SMIL for this? 01:28:01 dino: Ever tried writing that in SMIL? It's crazy. 01:28:10 +Doug_Schepers 01:28:30 birtles: next specification I'll be working on is SVG mapping onto the model 01:28:49 dirk: Your request is to review the spec give feedback, and end up with publishing FPWD. 01:28:54 birtles: yes, will send request later this week 01:29:31 dino: what's the state of your JS shim/polyfill? 01:29:41 birtles: I'm not contributing to that; Google is. 01:29:44 shane: what info do you want? 01:29:53 dino: how complete relative to spec? 01:30:09 shane: more complete than current spec? Up to date other than last 3-4 weeks. 01:30:16 shane: on github, open source license 01:30:30 shane: should be relatively easy for us to sync with last set of changes over a week or so 01:30:46 birtles: have some issues with events marked in spec with "feedback wanted" -- we want more input 01:31:16 glazou: did you want to ask for FPWD now? 01:31:32 ?: or give people time to review? 01:31:47 dino: I think it's a high quality spec, I think the question is whether in scope or out of scope. 01:31:59 -[IPcaller] 01:32:00 -Doug_Schepers 01:32:00 Team_(css)01:00Z has ended 01:32:00 Attendees were [IPcaller], Doug_Schepers 01:32:06 glazou: do people want time to review? 01:33:24 [various people happy with publishing] 01:33:31 Bert: no time to review before July anyway, so don't wait for me 01:34:02 RESOLVED: Publish Web Animations as First Public Working Draft (resolved by both CSS and SVG WGs). 01:35:26 Topic: reusing stroke and fill properties 01:35:31 heycam: topic added from CSS side 01:35:37 heycam: did someone have a specific proposal 01:35:42 Tab: it was me 01:35:47 Team_(css)01:00Z has now started 01:35:51 fantasai: we've had requests to be able to do fill and stroke on letterforms 01:35:55 + +81.36.384.aaaa 01:36:04 fantasai: webkit has text-stroke property. Might make more sense to reuse existing SVG properties. 01:36:23 +Doug_Schepers 01:36:25 fantasai: Complication is filling with pattern or image of some kind... how to handle line breaks is complicated 01:36:26 birtles_ has joined #css 01:36:34 fantasai: stroking or filling with color is straightforward 01:36:43 heycam: why do line breaks complicate things? 01:36:49 fantasai: need to find the bounding box 01:36:59 +Vivienne 01:37:31 [pause for Zakim debugging] 01:37:54 -Vivienne 01:38:13 fantasai: might cut or take bounding box or separately per fragment 01:38:17 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-backgrounds/#box-decoration-break 01:38:23 dbaron: we do sort-of have a property for this already 01:38:24 the webvtt guys have 'text-outline' as part of their spec 01:38:26 dbaron: we do sort of have a property for this already: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-backgrounds/#box-decoration-break 01:38:39 fill/stroke would be a better way of supporting that 01:38:39 fantasai: do we reuse that property or have separate control? 01:39:00 heycam: what does box-decoration-break do? fantasai: determines how it's handled for borders and background 01:39:11 fantasai: That's background, this is about foreground. 01:39:34 heycam: That's one issue. Another is defining how color property and fill/stroke properties work together and whether their initial values allow same behavior for existing things. 01:39:41 dirk: I think the first question is do we want something like that. 01:39:58 dirk: Before we talk about page break or line break or whatever. 01:40:02 - +81.36.384.aaaa 01:40:03 -Doug_Schepers 01:40:03 Team_(css)01:00Z has ended 01:40:04 Attendees were +81.36.384.aaaa, Doug_Schepers, Vivienne 01:40:11 fantasai: simplest are fill-opacity and stroke; fill could deal with later 01:40:17 dirk: I think fill at least as important as stroke 01:40:50 dino: webkit currently has custom property for gradients in text -- -webkit-background-clip -- horrible thing with backgrounds, for filling text. Can't then do background. 01:41:00 dino: want to be able to say fill text with gradient/color/pattern; seems pretty standard for CSS 01:41:08 fantasai: additional complication is that color inherits 01:41:18 fantasai: so each element paints with its own color property 01:41:31 fantasai: if you add more elements nothing changes unless you set properties on those elements 01:41:41 fantasai: you want pattern to be consistent across an entire paragraph 01:41:48 ... with elements inside 01:42:18 heycam: in SVG, two options (1) define pattern area in coordinate space of elements or (2) define relative to bounding box of element that's using that paint 01:42:31 heycam: but for tspans within a text element we use the bounding box of the text element as a whole 01:42:45 dbaron: don't think (1) works with CSS model 01:42:47 heycam: agree 01:43:06 heycam: so what happens with linear-gradient on a paragraph with multiple spans... 01:43:20 MikeSmith has joined #css 01:43:37 dbaron: background doesn't inherit 01:43:42 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:43:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/05-css-minutes.html MikeSmith 01:44:06 [not minuting entire discussion here] 01:44:17 dino notes that fill inherits 01:44:28 dino: fill/stroke/color inherit and background doesn't; don't want a new style of fill for every child 01:44:29 fantasai: that would be a problem 01:44:48 heycam: why would fill and color have different inheritance? 01:44:57 fantasai: if you're setting a pattern need to know which element initiated the pattern 01:45:20 heycam: seems odd for fill and color to have difference in whether they inherit, similar actions 01:46:07 heycam: I think we should first see if people think it's a good idea for fill and stroke to work for text... then work out issues if people like it. 01:46:12 dirk: always have option to have different properties 01:46:31 dbaron: I think it is a good idea to use fill/stroke. Would like to see that work 01:46:44 Team_(css)01:00Z has now started 01:46:46 dbaron: We could do it by turning fill/stroke into shorthand that sets both an inherited and non-inherited property 01:46:52 + +81.36.384.aaaa 01:46:54 heycam: ??? 01:47:17 dbaron: Say 'fill' is a shorthand for 'fill-pattern' and 'fill-root' 01:47:22 +[IPcaller] 01:47:28 heycam: so having text-stroke and text-fill not inherited and shape-stroke and shape-fill (for SVG) inherited 01:47:47 dbaron: latter of which has 'normal' and 'establish' or something 01:48:00 dino: You only want this fill/stroke to apply to text 01:48:00 dino: question is, do you only want this new fill/stroke to apply to text? 01:48:01 +Doug_Schepers 01:48:08 dino: It's text-stroke. Do you ever want to stroke the box? 01:48:08 dino: that's one reason in webkit it's text-stroke 01:48:12 dino: do you ever want to stroke a box? 01:48:18 fantasai: That's what borders are for 01:48:18 fantasai: that's what borders are for 01:48:27 ?: just on text 01:48:34 fantasai: that's what borders are for 01:48:34 dino: then why not just do text-fill and text-stroke 01:48:56 dirk: if you say ... should be a shorthand ... inheritance problem ... 01:49:01 dino: sounds fine to me 01:49:10 fantasai: in SVG stroke just sets color of something ... weird 01:49:23 heycam: might be beneficial for 'stroke' to be shorthand to stroke-paint and stroke-width and ... 01:49:30 fantasai: yes, that would follow pattern of CSS a lot better 01:49:40 dirk: what does stroke-paint stroke-width mean? 01:49:45 heycam: stroke-paint would be what stroke is currently 01:49:55 fantasai: you can set all the stroke-related properties 01:50:04 fantasai: if you just want to touch the color you say stroke-paint 01:50:12 heycam: might be more convenient for SVG anyway 01:50:19 fantasai: possible without breaking the Web? 01:50:24 heycam: yeah, probably 01:50:34 fantasai: depends how often people use it in CSS syntax rather than in SVG file 01:50:46 fantasai: because stroke-width: ...; stroke: ...; would reset the first 01:51:00 - +81.36.384.aaaa 01:51:06 (what would stroke: blue; do?) 01:51:08 heycam: so I feel like somebody should look at these issues and come up with proposal forintegrating 01:51:14 dirk: problem here is we have the attributes 01:51:22 dirk: [too fast] 01:51:27 -[IPcaller] 01:51:33 -Doug_Schepers 01:51:34 Team_(css)01:00Z has ended 01:51:34 Attendees were +81.36.384.aaaa, [IPcaller], Doug_Schepers 01:51:37 heycam: we already decided to allow font shorthand as presentation attribute 01:51:38 Team_(css)01:00Z has now started 01:51:43 shepazu, if it’s a shorthand, set stroke-paint to blue and stroke-width to the initial value 01:51:45 heycam: you take all the presentation attributes in a praticular order 01:51:45 +??P0 01:51:51 dirk :cannot modify this order in te dom 01:51:57 SimonSapin, then it won't break the web 01:51:57 heycam: might not have made this change 01:52:07 fantasai: for surethe stroke attribute would map to stroke-paint... it would have to 01:52:11 fantasai: never mind 01:52:27 heycam: anybody think it's a bad idea to try to allow paints in stroking text? 01:52:38 Bert: principle is good, worried about syntax 01:52:52 shans__ has joined #css 01:52:56 fantasai: in SVG, if you stroke a letterform, where does the stroke lie with respect... 01:53:02 dirk: it half overlaps the fill 01:53:08 seems like we need someone to work on a draft proposal 01:53:15 tav: can change the order now 01:53:28 heycam: does webkit-text-stroke paint on top of fill or beneath? 01:53:33 dirk: same as SVG 01:53:35 i think you want to have inset/outset control 01:53:44 look to postscript for a good model 01:53:52 tav: most of the time you want fill on top of stroke 01:54:18 fantasai: if you put fill on top of stroke, looks fine when fill is opaque, otherwise looks dumb 01:54:28 fantasai: would also lead to author confusion about stroke width 01:54:38 fantasai: so I agree with jdaggett, should have control over where stroke is centered 01:54:48 dirk: ??? 01:54:48 also, japan has *lots* of examples of double stroking of text 01:54:56 heycam: we have proposal for that 01:55:01 tav: should we put that in? 01:55:03 dirk; we did 01:55:05 white stroke surrounded by black stroke 01:55:10 +1 to controlling stroke centering 01:55:25 Bert: if you're doing filling of text you might want text-shadow to have inset keyword 01:55:31 fantasai: inset in plans for text level 4 01:55:58 +[IPcaller] 01:56:05 dirk: stroke and fill don't need to overlap... have a new property so they don't need to 01:56:08 heycam: called stroke-position? 01:56:17 heycam: which we have a proposal for, to go in SVG2 01:56:44 fantasai: I think Tab and I can take an action to draw this one up. 01:56:48 glenn has joined #css 01:56:55 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Stroke_position 01:57:03 ACTION fantasai with Tab, draw up proposal for using stroke and fill for CSS text 01:57:03 Created ACTION-562 - With Tab, draw up proposal for using stroke and fill for CSS text [on Elika Etemad - due 2013-06-12]. 01:57:15 +Present glenn 01:58:00 shepazu, call in 01:58:52 jdaggett: For text stroke and text fill, parameterization could be complication... would like to work through multiple proposals. 01:59:22 Zakim, mute jdaggett 01:59:22 sorry, dbaron, I do not know which phone connection belongs to jdaggett 01:59:36 muted 02:00:01 Zakim, who is noisy? 02:00:14 dbaron, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P0 (20%) 02:00:30 Zakim, ??P0 is Meeting_Room 02:00:30 +Meeting_Room; got it 02:00:45 Zakim, [IPCaller] is jdaggett 02:00:45 +jdaggett; got it 02:01:10 -jdaggett 02:01:19 -Meeting_Room 02:01:20 Team_(css)01:00Z has ended 02:01:20 Attendees were Meeting_Room, jdaggett 02:01:26 ok, shepazu; conference Team_(css)02:01Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 0301Z 02:02:03 Team_(css)02:01Z has now started 02:02:08 +Doug_Schepers 02:02:09 -Doug_Schepers 02:02:10 +??P0 02:02:16 Zakim, ??P0 is Meeting_Room 02:02:16 +Meeting_Room; got it 02:02:32 +Doug_Schepers 02:02:52 Cool, new meeting is working. 02:03:27 +[IPcaller] 02:03:34 Zakim, [IPCaller] is jdaggett 02:03:34 +jdaggett; got it 02:03:44 yup 02:03:46 that's me 02:03:57 there's a tv nearby so i have to mute 02:04:14 Topic: text wrapping plans for SVG 02:04:38 heycam: so recently in SVG WG meeting yesterday or the day before we discussed how to satisfy requests for wrapping text in SVG, long wanted 02:05:02 heycam: people may remember the proposal in SVG Tiny 1.2, for