IRC log of ebooki18n on 2013-06-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

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Meeting: W3C ebook Workshop - Tokyo, Japan - June 4, 2013
23:49:25 [karl]
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scribe: ivan
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scribenick: ivan
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rrsagent, set log public
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masao: I am working for w3c keio, site manager
00:03:42 [ivan]
… very glad to see everybody here
00:03:42 [ivan]
… lots of people for Japan, European, Americans...
00:03:54 [ivan]
… Japan as a special spec specification for vertical writing
00:04:04 [ivan]
… many countries have many requirements
00:04:10 [ivan]
… i18n is very important for us
00:04:18 [ivan]
… a good opportonity for meet us all
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… thank you!
00:04:50 [ivan]
(introducing the two co-chairs)
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Scribe: Ivan
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Richard: you can queue up questions by adding "q+" in this irc channel
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00:14:26 [ivan]
Markus Gylling: IDPF and W3C relationships
00:15:02 [ivan]
mgylling: I am CTO of IDPF, the organization that does the epub standard, current version 3
00:15:07 [Sharad]
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00:15:16 [ivan]
… have a background in accessibility, working also for the Daisy consortium
00:15:44 [ivan]
… as you know, this is one out of 3 workshops
00:15:56 [ivan]
… a lead-in to a digital pubishing ig, that will kick of early autumn
00:16:01 [ivan]
… it is a historic event
00:16:06 [ivan]
… for us it is
00:16:23 [ivan]
… w3c has not really engaged in vertical industries
00:16:32 [ivan]
… web and tv is an example for a change
00:16:50 [ivan]
… asking how the open platform works for them
00:17:05 [ivan]
… I would really ike to encourage all of you who are part of this industry to join the ig
00:17:23 [ivan]
… it is really on the alignment of the opw and the digital publishing
00:17:25 [karl]
s/really ike/really like/
00:17:36 [ivan]
… for example breaching the gap between online and offline publishing
00:17:58 [karen_]
URL to Digital Publishing Interest Group Charter:
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00:18:11 [ivan]
… or the publ industry metadata (like onyx or marc) : to have ways to add those to the owp
00:18:39 [ivan]
… the topic of adaption, personalization: spending 2-300 hours with a textbook, to be able to adapt that is not only an extra feature, it is a requirement
00:18:45 [ivan]
… and of course accessibility
00:19:02 [ivan]
… we also have the layout features in publishing which is not exactly the same as we
00:19:19 [ivan]
… eg pagination and css have to be better in that, but there are other examples
00:19:37 [ivan]
… we have, potentially, api alignments, eg for social reading, annotation, discovery of content
00:19:47 [ivan]
… like for education
00:19:53 [ivan]
… those were just examples
00:20:09 [Sharad]
will this group define a stabndard for metadata also?
00:20:23 [ivan]
… looking back of the idpf and ig: accessibility and i18n
00:20:34 [ivan]
… for idpf these are non negotiable
00:20:48 [ivan]
… reuse whatver there is to do what they need
00:21:03 [ivan]
… we have an idpf wild card to solve those solution
00:21:13 [MURATA]
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00:21:13 [ivan]
… idpf has therefore a css profile for idpf
00:21:28 [ivan]
…. we did this at a time when the the webkit prefixes spread around
00:21:43 [ivan]
… we are aware of th eproblems when you do such a thing
00:22:17 [ivan]
… however, we do not regret this; these were in a large a part those that enables the ebook industry to move away from the propr. format
00:22:26 [stearns_]
Sharad: the draft charter mentions metadata:
00:22:28 [Sharad]
"q+ will this group also define a standard for metadata ?"
00:22:30 [ivan]
… that said, we are not done
00:22:43 [ivan]
… there are things that has to be done
00:22:52 [ivan]
… eg, ruby and ??? layout
00:23:08 [ivan]
… our hopes that we do not have to use epub prefixes again
00:23:26 [Sharad]
"q+ how about security for e-books. will this group deine security also?"
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00:23:43 [ivan]
… but that we can more effetively get to what we need
00:23:47 [ivan]
… I hope that you will help us identify a set of core issues
00:23:51 [ivan]
… thank you very much
00:23:52 [Sharad]
thank you Carl
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00:24:08 [Sharad]
q+ how about security for e-books. will this group deine security also
00:24:25 [kaz]
00:25:08 [karl]
q+ to ask will this group define a standard for metadata also?
00:25:24 [karl]
q+ to ask how about security for e-books. will this group deine security also (for Sharad)
00:26:05 [ivan]
Markus: there is enough metadata, no need for a new one
00:26:14 [karl]
ack karl
00:26:14 [Zakim]
karl, you wanted to ask will this group define a standard for metadata also? and to ask how about security for e-books. will this group deine security also (for Sharad)
00:26:18 [ivan]
… the problem is on how to use them, and some of them are too poor
00:26:33 [ivan]
… i hope we may develop good guidellines how to use
00:26:54 [ivan]
… we know that security and drm is required for this industry
00:27:02 [ivan]
… but we do not want the ig to be bogged down
00:27:22 [ivan]
… it is not decided yet, but it will not be given the first point on the agenda
00:27:33 [ivan]
… but an ig is an ig, the members also set the agenda
00:27:47 [ivan]
… depending on what the members want to do
00:27:54 [karl]
00:27:56 [ivan]
Richard Ishida: I18N & W3C
00:28:49 [ivan]
r12n: i18n activity at tha w3c is composed from a number of groups
00:29:14 [ivan]
… i18n wg, mlw-lt group, an interest group a number of task forces
00:29:27 [ivan]
… we review specifications giving advice
00:29:38 [ivan]
… we seek out requirements for owp
00:29:45 [ivan]
… liaise to other communities
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00:30:01 [ivan]
… we help people to use the i18n features for owp
00:30:19 [ivan]
… we have a home page
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00:31:09 [ivan]
r12n: some issues for today, not exhaustive
00:31:45 [ivan]
… html5: text direction, in particular arabic & co, where text flows in different directions, ruby, language declaration
00:31:51 [ivan]
… all these are markup
00:32:00 [ivan]
… time and date, charcter declarations
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00:32:10 [ivan]
… a lot of i18n stuff happens in css
00:32:19 [ivan]
… that is where the styling and typographic work is donw
00:32:53 [ivan]
… eg, css-text text transform, full width characters for example, or white space processing
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00:33:00 [ivan]
… people did not care so far
00:33:14 [mgylling]
s/ruby and ??? layout/bopomofo ruby and tobira layout/
00:33:43 [ivan]
… in chinese or thai if you add <br/> that are not good
00:33:43 [ivan]
… line breaking and word boundaries
00:33:47 [ivan]
… breaking within words
00:34:06 [ivan]
… alignments and justification, different scripts do it differently
00:34:18 [ivan]
… word and letter separation
00:34:38 [ivan]
… first line indentation and hanging in different scripts
00:34:50 [ivan]
… in indic the firs syllable has to be used
00:35:10 [ivan]
… css text decoration spec looks an underline and strike through, etc
00:35:15 [ivan]
… emphais mark
00:35:21 [ivan]
… text shadow
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00:35:37 [ivan]
… css writing mode: direction and bidirection text
00:35:48 [ivan]
… you also have vertical and variant in other languages
00:35:56 [ivan]
… sometimes mixed directions
00:36:04 [ivan]
… base line alignments
00:36:17 [karl]
s/emphais mark/emphasis mark/
00:36:34 [ivan]
… css3 ruby: how do you align the ruby according to your preference
00:36:52 [ivan]
… bopmofo ruby: has a vertical ruby with tone marks
00:37:04 [ivan]
… css font: font properties, vary according tot he scripts
00:37:12 [ivan]
… woff fonts
00:37:23 [ivan]
… fonts features properties
00:37:32 [ivan]
… those were just a few things
00:37:41 [ivan]
… then we have some of the things we have been doing
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00:37:53 [ivan]
… additional requirements for bidi in html and css
00:38:50 [ivan]
…… bidi isolation, we have provied some requirements, those have been put into the html5 spec
00:38:59 [ivan]
… form submission improvements
00:39:16 [ivan]
… requirement for japanese text layout: we produced a separate document
00:39:36 [ivan]
… with different aspects of typography in japan and how those are requirements
00:39:46 [ivan]
… b.t.w., that was produced by a task force in japan
00:40:04 [ivan]
… we have been doing work on ruby: use cases and exploratory approaches for ruby
00:40:18 [ivan]
… that will produce a requirement to the html5 group
00:40:35 [ivan]
… another is a first draft for hangul text layout and typography
00:40:45 [ivan]
… on the same a model as the japanese but for korean
00:41:01 [ivan]
… we put together a task force for indic layout, we are just starting it up
00:41:22 [ivan]
… has published a first draft document
00:41:48 [ivan]
… that will be run by people in INdia
00:42:05 [ivan]
… putting a document together for counter styles for numbered lists
00:42:23 [ivan]
… we plan to make this available as a note
00:42:41 [ivan]
… the question is whether we would need a community group to maintain that list
00:43:00 [ivan]
… multilingual linked open data group has been set up
00:43:47 [ivan]
… This is your Web, this is not W3C's web!
00:44:09 [ivan]
… if you believe that w3c will just do is produce things to what you need, that is a mistake, we do it together
00:44:33 [ivan]
… w3c brings people together, in all those success stories we bring people together
00:44:43 [ivan]
… get involved!
00:45:06 [ivan]
… the web is about people an not about technologies
00:46:23 [ivan]
Bert Bos: Can you typeset a book with CSS?
00:47:33 [ivan]
Bert: assuming you want to make a book, you have xml or html, and you want to make a book with css, is it possible
00:47:50 [ivan]
… I did it:-) I could do it
00:48:03 [ivan]
… if you stick to waht is standard: then the answer is no
00:48:26 [ivan]
… css was meant to be simple
00:48:36 [ivan]
… easy to use for web pages (mostly)
00:48:54 [ivan]
… we expected somethign else for the complex stuff, which became xslt and xsl-fo
00:48:58 [Liam-jp]
[Bert's slides: ]
00:49:15 [ivan]
… learning how to do all that would make time, so we decided to do the easy thing
00:49:20 [ivan]
… but time has changed
00:50:21 [ivan]
… we simplified the design, we assumed the layout was based on the document structure
00:50:29 [ivan]
… plus some few extension for first line, etc,
00:50:46 [ivan]
… but if you do magazines, we need more, we need to look at the regions on the page
00:51:02 [ivan]
… a number of requirements:
00:51:37 [ivan]
… running headers:
00:52:24 [ivan]
… we have simple positioning, page numebers, fixed text in them, proposal to copy text into the runing headers, special elements in the documents, ideas on how to position them on other places
00:52:48 [ivan]
(example on mathamatics)
00:53:23 [glazou]
00:53:51 [ivan]
… a bunch of other topics, like footnotes, continued on, shapes, grid, ...
00:53:56 [ivan]
(grid example)
00:54:57 [ivan]
… copyfitting: ensure a book has neither too many nor too few pages
00:55:25 [ivan]
… for css: fitting on a smaller scale
00:55:43 [ivan]
.. eg by changing the font bigger or smaller
00:56:53 [ivan]
… styling a blank page, page size, printing marks, ...
00:57:10 [ivan]
… page size is important when you print,
00:57:30 [ivan]
… change bars are interesting, they do not follow the element structure
00:57:48 [ivan]
… for an ebook reader an annotation are important and their styling
00:58:19 [ivan]
… speech, lexicon and pronounciation is missing from there
00:58:24 [ivan]
… there is no standard for that
00:58:38 [ivan]
… vertical text: we have been working on that for a long time
00:58:58 [ivan]
… we found that the first attempt did not satisfy all cases
00:59:10 [ivan]
… we let it rest, did a 2nd attempt a few years later
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00:59:20 [ivan]
… but it was not enough
00:59:33 [ivan]
… now we are making the 3rd attempt, used in the epub3 spec
00:59:34 [mgylling]
Re standards for pronunciation, EPUB 3 references PLS as defined at
00:59:42 [ivan]
… hoepfully we will get it right this time
00:59:57 [ivan]
… the japanese layout requirement helped a lot
01:00:06 [ivan]
…. this is a very large subject
01:00:30 [ivan]
… like rotating non ideographic letter or putting multiple narrow character together
01:01:00 [ivan]
… effect of vertical text many other modules, like alignments, floating
01:01:16 [ivan]
… we need aligntment to the top and bottom, or table caption side
01:01:35 [ivan]
… and other properties in a number of other modules
01:02:14 [ivan]
… alphabetic index:
01:02:46 [ivan]
… the question is whether we want to do it in css; we may have to do in formatting phase
01:03:14 [ivan]
… that may lead, eg, multiplication of the page numbers
01:03:43 [ivan]
… you may want to have formatting phase for this
01:03:45 [ivan]
… or make/collapse ranges
01:04:05 [ivan]
… we need to find out what is needed for that, looking at xsl, for example
01:04:13 [ivan]
… afaik nobody tried that yet
01:04:30 [ivan]
… mathml layout needs some css
01:04:38 [ivan]
… the math wg created a profile
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01:04:42 [ivan]
… we want to do more
01:04:57 [ivan]
… as least as nice as TeX can do it
01:05:10 [r12a]
01:05:24 [ivan]
… conclusion: people want to use css, they have to rely extensions because the standard are not ready
01:05:50 [ivan]
… but this year looks like a good one, this workshop, the japanese (and later indic) IG helps a lot
01:07:37 [karen_]
Liam: ruby in running headers?
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01:07:56 [karen_]
Richard: tahnk you to all the speakers in the first sessioin
01:08:09 [karen_]
...we now take a break and will meet back here to start next session at 10:30am
01:08:10 [ivan]
01:08:21 [karen_]
...Also, lunch will be here; food will be brought into this room at lunch time
01:08:32 [ivan]
scribe: karen
01:08:38 [ivan]
scribenick: karen_
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RRSAgent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
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01:30:01 [karen_]
Topic: Session 1; Speakers: Makoto Murata, Koji Ishii, Shinya Takami
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01:31:17 [karen_]
First Speaker, Session 1: Murata Makoto, co-chair IDPF Advanced/Hybrid Layouts WG, i18N sub-group lead of the IDPF EPUB WG
01:31:46 [karen_]
Scribe: Karen Myers
01:32:06 [karen_]
Richard: Welcome back to the next session
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01:32:38 [karen_]
...after presentations this morning we will have a brief discussion
01:33:06 [karen_]
Makoto-san: Let me explain who I am [reviews slide one roles]
01:33:27 [karen_]
...advanced/hybrid layouts is largely about comics and magazines
01:33:58 [karen_]
...I was an original member of XML WG
01:34:09 [karen_]
...Today I'm not going to talk about detaills because I'm not an expert
01:34:10 [glazou]
interested doc for the current talk
01:34:15 [karen_]
...don't know a lot about typography
01:34:17 [glazou]
01:34:31 [karen_]
...but rather point out differences or simillarities in these two wholds
01:34:37 [karen_]
...Web and eBook worlds
01:34:48 [karen_]
...this is my understanding of the World Wide Web
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01:35:00 [karen_]
[slide with spider web and magician on top]
01:35:08 [karen_]
...this is Tim Berners-Lee [laughs]
01:35:17 [karen_]
...Web has not been used to publish books and magazinees
01:35:27 [karen_]
...only recently we see eBooks, especially in US
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01:35:37 [karen_]
...will become more popular in Europe and and Asia over next few years
01:35:43 [karen_]
...Things have changed a lot in Japan recently
01:35:51 [karen_]
...some synergy between two worlds
01:35:58 [karen_]
...eBooks are based on web technologies
01:36:03 [karen_]
...HTML, JPeg, etc.
01:36:14 [karen_]'s ebook tech based on web tech
01:36:20 [karen_]
...Today we are seeing a lot more self publishing
01:36:31 [karen_] first, then create ebooks from that content
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01:36:40 [karen_]
...users don't see differences between the two worlds
01:36:45 [karen_]
...for them the world is one world
01:36:54 [karen_]
...historically there are some important differences
01:37:12 [karen_] IDPF world, EPUB are distributable packes of web contents
01:37:20 [karen_]
...IETF and W3C, what do they do
01:37:34 [karen_]
...MHTML is mainly for email, believe it's widely used by email readers
01:37:41 [karen_]
...and w3C provides widget packaging
01:37:56 [karen_]
...I was in a working group on this but nothing was published
01:38:03 [karen_]
...three different technologies for packaging
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01:38:06 [tmichel]
3 technologies for packaging
01:38:06 [karen_]
...Some key players
01:38:19 [karen_]
....In W3C, browser vendors are key players
01:38:21 [karen_]
...and the IT guys
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01:38:40 [karen_]
...For IDPF, Google, Apple, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, Sony and the traditional publishers are the key players
01:38:45 [karen_]
..So differences and priorities
01:38:59 [karen_]
...IDPF: longevity of publications is very important
01:39:07 [karen_]
...if book does not display, you would sue publisher
01:39:23 [karen_]
...publisher today can freely update their web page
01:39:36 [karen_]
...traiditonal typography also important; publishers and users say so
01:39:56 [karen_]
...vertical writing is a key factor that IDPF has considered, and also ruby
01:40:13 [karen_] IDPF, Javascript is not well liked
01:40:22 [karen_]
...longevity is the issue; becomes dangerous
01:40:36 [karen_]
...that is why IDPF EPUB3 does not recommend the use of Javascript
01:40:47 [karen_]
...and in W3C web-based application programs are considered important
01:40:51 [karen_]
...these are other differences
01:40:58 [karen_]
...How should we go forward?
01:41:16 [karen_]
...Are these differences really important, going to exist forever, or just because there are traditions from publishers?
01:41:25 [karen_]
...I don't have an answer
01:41:32 [karen_]
...For example, how important is vertical writing?
01:41:42 [karen_]
...Some Japanese writers say yes, others say no
01:41:51 [karen_]
...extreme positions within Japan
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01:42:03 [karen_]
...generation or individual differences; I don't have an answer
01:42:10 [karen_]
...but I believe certainly that the world is converging
01:42:30 [karen_]
...ebook and web world won't continue forever; young writers and new users don't care
01:42:44 [karen_]
...We need better exchanges between IDPF and W3C working groups
01:42:53 [karen_]
...historically there have been interactions with the CSS WG
01:43:06 [karen_]
...Advanced Hybrid Layuts WG and the SVG WG of W3C
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01:43:17 [karen_]
...I am co-chair of this WG; about comics and magazines
01:43:23 [AndChat474201]
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01:43:30 [karen_]
...within EPUB container, it can take three renditions
01:43:42 [karen_] can change font size; don't know number of pages in advanced
01:43:50 [karen_]
...second is for fixed layout and tablets
01:43:53 [karen_]
...this is image based
01:44:04 [karen_]
...which might contain @ text or comics
01:44:15 [karen_]
...Third one is another fixed layout rendition, smaller screen size for mobile
01:44:27 [karen_]
...incorporate one rendition in single diff file
01:44:30 [karen_]
..which one to choose
01:44:44 [karen_]
...Automatically or interactively choose one rendition?
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01:45:00 [karen_]
...for example, based on natural language, screen size or resolution or fixed layout
01:45:07 [karen_]
...similar to content negotiation for HTTP
01:45:14 [karen_]
...An interesting possibility for using this
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01:45:21 [karen_] to capture sophisticated layout
01:45:30 [karen_]
...Bert mentioned CSS for advanced layout
01:45:37 [karen_]
...looking forward to more progress in that area
01:45:45 [karen_]
...another possibility is to use images
01:45:48 [karen_]
...scanned or PDF docs
01:45:51 [karen_] rendition
01:46:11 [karen_]
...and have another reflowable rendition with simple HTML and CSS style sheets
01:46:24 [karen_]
...this combination allows sophisticated layout
01:46:28 [karen_]
...but no accessibility
01:46:35 [karen_]
...this is not @
01:46:38 [karen_] text to speech
01:46:43 [karen_]
...only for sophisticated layout
01:47:03 [karen_]
...we have a reflowable rendition and we know which region corresponds to which section in the HTML document
01:47:06 [karen_]
...this is the point
01:47:12 [karen_]
...allows you to switch back and forth
01:47:19 [karen_]
...what i18N WG is doing right now
01:47:27 [karen_]
...we plan to put multi-directional links
01:47:38 [karen_]
...detached documents
01:47:50 [karen_] contains multi-directional links detached from XHTML or images
01:48:02 [karen_]
...Last one is intra-rendition navigation
01:48:18 [karen_]
...this is about mobile phones or tablets where screen size is not big enough
01:48:29 [karen_] may want to focus on one panel or page on screen
01:48:33 [r12a]
s/i18N WG/ADH WG/
01:48:36 [karen_]
...this navigation is based on regions
01:48:42 [karen_]
...another possibility
01:48:46 [karen_] magazines
01:48:58 [karen_]
...might contain table of contents
01:49:02 [karen_]
...image areas for text
01:49:12 [karen_]
...How do we capture regions?
01:49:16 [karen_]
...We have two possibilities
01:49:24 [karen_] is to use media fragments from W3C
01:49:30 [karen_]
...other is to use SVG elements
01:49:34 [karen_]
...some other issues
01:49:40 [karen_]
01:49:57 [karen_]
...Yesterday Markus, myself and two other guys attended the SVG F2F WG
01:50:01 [karen_]
...and we had a nice discussion
01:50:21 [karen_]
...and mentioned the idea of delinking non-rectangular views from spec
01:50:34 [karen_]
...they will send us a liaison statement and provide answers to our question
01:50:42 [karen_]
...This is a very good start of our joint work
01:50:48 [karen_]
...between SVG and AHL WG
01:50:50 [karen_]
...end of my talk
01:51:24 [karen_]
Speaker: Koji Ishii
01:52:10 [karen_]
Kaz: I have a question about hybrid layout
01:52:17 [karen_]
...I brought this digital TV Guide
01:52:38 [karen_]
...content is Japanese text explaining this drama
01:52:50 [karen_]
...second part is completely text
01:52:57 [karen_]
...some of pages have this kind of big pictures
01:53:02 [karen_]
...some have manga
01:53:16 [karen_]
...wondering if it is possible for ebooks to implement this kind of layout?
01:53:28 [karen_]
...Murato-san, do you have an opinion for this layout for magazines?
01:53:38 [karen_]
Richard: we will discuss this during the discussion session
01:53:55 [karen_]
Ishii-san: I am from Rakuten, Kobo division
01:54:12 [karen_]
...I would like to talk about specs
01:54:12 [karen_]
...talked last week on issues list with publishers
01:54:23 [karen_]
...found some implementation issues to take to CSS WG
01:54:28 [karen_]
...found some issues hard to solve
01:54:33 [shige]
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01:54:40 [karen_]
...I changed my topic to talk about these things
01:54:46 [karen_]
...Why EPUB Interoperability is hard
01:54:56 [karen_]
...before talking about those issues
01:55:02 [karen_] is the EPUB reading system architecture
01:55:10 [karen_]
...Most has three components
01:55:15 [karen_]
...Webkit, paging engine
01:55:19 [karen_]
...renders on Webkit
01:55:25 [karen_] is not required in EPUB spec
01:55:30 [karen_]
...changing font size, colors
01:55:39 [karen_]
...Today W3C defines UA behavior
01:55:47 [karen_]
...and IDPF defines EPUB files format
01:56:00 [karen_]
...but neither defines paging behavior or when user changes font
01:56:06 [karen_]
...I know there are discussions in IDPF
01:56:13 [karen_]
...and concludd they be left undefined
01:56:22 [karen_]
...I am going to show some examples that publishers are facing today
01:56:32 [karen_]
...By not anyone defining paging behavior
01:56:39 [karen_]
...listed here
01:56:47 [karen_]
...there are multiple ways to implement reading systems
01:56:54 [karen_]
..Some use IFRAME, multicol, regions
01:57:11 [karen_] using each of these different technologies, some CSS properties do not work properly in all browsers
01:57:19 [kotakagi]
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01:57:28 [karen_]
..EPUB WG expects page media to extend further and define EPUB behavior
01:57:33 [karen_]
...Not able to follow that
01:58:00 [karen_]
...EPUB not using readng system as defined in CSS today...
01:58:06 [karen_]
...ICB does not work well
01:58:12 [karen_]
...reading systems has its own margin
01:58:19 [karen_]
...inside the UA they display the contents
01:58:30 [karen_]
...In CSS, ICB assumes it's a browser region
01:58:42 [karen_]
...there is a disconnect between what browser and EPUB see as pages
01:58:54 [karen_]
...Media query has same issue
01:59:01 [karen_]
...heigh often does not work
01:59:05 [karen_]
01:59:21 [karen_]
...Root elements are not root elements in rem, EPUB contents
01:59:31 [karen_]
...background color is not interoperable
01:59:39 [karen_]
...These different types of implementations make image layout hard
01:59:48 [karen_]
...things publishers want to do
01:59:54 [karen_]
...flat in the page, show image in the new page
02:00:06 [karen_]
...make size of images to be specific percent of pages
02:00:12 [karen_]
...some defined as CSS media
02:00:33 [karen_]
...As mentioned before, most media systems not using CSS
02:00:38 [karen_]
...does not help at all
02:00:46 [karen_]
...Another thing making EPUB interoperability difficulty
02:00:57 [karen_]
...EPUB does not define behavior in change of font size or colors
02:01:12 [karen_]
...I understand it's natural from @ perspective
02:01:22 [karen_]
...Some ambiguity of communication between author and reading system
02:01:30 [karen_]
...when for instance also wants to put inline images
02:01:43 [karen_] as character or image; not clear if an image should change its size
02:01:47 [karen_]
...whic font size to follow
02:01:59 [karen_]'s merely unwritten between author and reading system
02:02:16 [karen_]'s not written and it's not interoperable
02:02:18 [karl]
q+ to ask if the lack of interoperability is a lack of specifications OR implementation differences with regards to something which is already specified.
02:02:20 [karen_]
...there is no definition today
02:02:33 [karen_]
...CSS does not take case where user changes font size
02:02:52 [karen_]
...see different behavior for line/charaacter spacing by reading systems
02:03:01 [karen_]
...Next one is image caption issue
02:03:07 [karen_]
...recently raised by publishers
02:03:14 [karen_]
...maybe because of font sizes or previous issues
02:03:20 [karen_]
...If author wants to put captions to image
02:03:39 [karen_]'s not clearly understood whether those captions should change font sizes according to user settings
02:03:51 [karen_] and where those captions should be displayed is unclear
02:04:00 [karen_]
...We recommend in JPEG or SVG so font size does not change
02:04:10 [karen_]
...putting text into JPEG will make bad accessibility
02:04:15 [karen_]
...Last one is about colors
02:04:20 [karen_]
...not requirement for EPUB
02:04:31 [karen_]
...most have background color or night mode changes
02:04:38 [karen_]
...sometimes the text is unreadable
02:04:44 [karen_] on black is unreadable
02:04:53 [karen_]
...publishers are asking how to resolve those issues
02:04:57 [stearns_]
karl: it's a bit of both. paged media describes *printing*, not on-screen pagination. so we lack a spec for on-screen pagination. But there's also implementation differences that the hacks people use to accomplish on-screen pagination run into
02:04:58 [karen_]
...Today they are unresolved
02:05:04 [karen_]
...I don't have any answers to solve them
02:05:11 [karen_]
...this is a workshop where we can disucss these topics
02:05:20 [karen_]
...I am just showing the issues and showing feedback
02:05:38 [r12a]
02:05:59 [karen_]
Karl Dubost: I wanted to know
02:06:04 [karen_]
...when you talked about all the issues
02:06:11 [karen_]
...if lack of definitions, specifications
02:06:19 [karen_]
...or differences between implementations which is not the same thing
02:06:24 [karen_]
...we do not solve issues the same way
02:06:31 [karen_]
Ishii-san: not sure what it solves
02:06:39 [karen_]
...I see these are issues that W3C has been working on
02:06:45 [karen_]
...because browsers are not interoperable
02:06:57 [karen_]
...that is how W3C has been adding test suites and talking to vendors to make sure interoperable
02:07:06 [karen_]
Karl: so more a question of implementation?
02:07:11 [karen_]
Ishii-san: I think it is both
02:07:16 [karen_]
...W3C takes it as a spec issue
02:07:27 [karen_]
...any developer reading specs will conclude the same behavior
02:07:32 [karen_]
...goal is different
02:07:49 [karen_]
Kobayashi-san: presentation is important about defining the procedure
02:07:56 [karen_]
...let us talk about this during the discussion time
02:08:41 [karen_]
Speaker: Shinya Takami
02:08:55 [karen_]
...from Book Walker Co., Ltd.
02:09:03 [karen_]
...I moved to Japanese publisher
02:09:09 [yasuki_]
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02:09:14 [karen_]
...Book Walker is subsidiary of @ Group
02:09:18 [karen_]
...Let's start
02:09:24 [karen_]
...I am working in publishign industry
02:09:28 [karen_] Japan since last year
02:09:33 [Koji]
02:09:33 [karen_]
...the second ebook industry
02:09:41 [karen_]
...ebook phrase has started with EPUB3
02:09:50 [karen_]
...we have some problems with eBook market in Japan
02:09:57 [karen_]
...I would like to introduce Annotation for sample content
02:10:06 [karen_]
...eBook stores has preview function
02:10:16 [karen_]
...It's good for sales and easy to make
02:10:27 [karen_]
...but some Automatic samples have some problems in Japan
02:10:28 [shige]
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02:10:34 [karen_]
...generation rules are different in each store
02:10:43 [karen_]
...and fixed criteria are not acceptable in some cases in Japan
02:10:51 [karen_]
...We have some traditional file formats in this area
02:11:00 [karen_]
...have to prepare separate files, which is not so cost effective
02:11:15 [karen_]
...We would like to use automatic generation for sample content, but we have problems
02:11:22 [karen_]
...One example is "light novel"
02:11:27 [karen_]
...example like Manga
02:11:33 [karen_]
...illustrations hav big impact for sales
02:11:55 [karen_]
...Some publishers want to remove such kinds of illustrations from sample content
02:12:02 [karen_]
...because it's a motivation to buy the content
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02:12:09 [karen_]
...this is imporant for Japan market
02:12:22 [karen_]
...this content is original for movies in Japan
02:12:30 [karen_]
...Another case is "know-how" books
02:12:52 [karen_]
...for example, Michelin Guide is a know-how book
02:13:00 [karen_]
...Trading brands is hot in Japan
02:13:04 [karen_]
...has list of items
02:13:08 [karen_] important for these books
02:13:14 [karen_]
...If readers can read list in sample file
02:13:17 [karen_]
...and body is already done
02:13:23 [karen_]
...many customers will not buy this content
02:13:34 [karen_]
...Some publishers want to shorten the TOC on sample for these kinds of books
02:13:49 [karen_]
...a proposal from Kadokawa is to standardize annotation for sample content
02:13:56 [karen_] show which parts are available for ebooks stores
02:14:05 [karen_]
...Candidate solutoins on EPUB format
02:14:08 [karen_]
...fixed layout
02:14:15 [karen_]
...this is an example for the annotation
02:14:17 [karen_] OPF
02:14:23 [karen_]
[slide with code]
02:14:34 [karen_]
...we can include these kinds of metadata into OPF file
02:14:40 [karen_]
...if we want to partially prohibit
02:14:45 [karen_] extra properties
02:14:58 [karen_]
...maybe detect and understand this instruction when generating some content
02:15:04 [karen_]
...Next example is in XHTML5
02:15:05 [karen_]
...this is good
02:15:12 [karen_]
...publishers can instruct more details
02:15:17 [karen_]
...more rules in HTML5
02:15:27 [karen_]
...Next one is interoperabilit of user's library
02:15:34 [karen_]
...Now in Japan many eBooks stores, over 20
02:15:40 [karen_]
...and over 3,000 publishers in Japan
02:15:47 [karen_]
...each store needs to contract with many, many publishers
02:15:55 [karen_] each store the product lineup is different
02:16:03 [karen_]
...We think this a barrier to expand the market in Japan
02:16:09 [karen_]
...Due to DRM or other technologies
02:16:14 [karen_]
...each user has to buy in each store
02:16:26 [karen_]
...purchase books listed only in each store's library
02:16:50 [karen_]
...Libraries are distributed by each ebooks store
02:17:05 [karen_]
...We already started to share user's libary with some other ebooks stores
02:17:21 [karen_]
...You can read Kadokawa ebooks on other ereaders, even if purchased at other stores
02:17:29 [karen_]
...This interoperabilit brings advantages for users
02:17:38 [karen_]
...Users can avoid distributed ebook libraries
02:17:46 [karen_]
..improve flixibilty of using RS and astores
02:17:53 [karen_]
...Reduction of worry of extention
02:18:03 [karen_]
...This is a sample of library sharing with Booklive
02:18:11 [karen_]
...users can buy Kadokawa ebooks at BookLive
02:18:20 [karen_]
...and read at both BookLive and BookWalker
02:18:31 [karen_]
...We also want to propose to standarize library sharing
02:18:53 [karen_] standardization, helps to expand interopability to other publishers and stores
02:19:06 [karen_]
...Two topics to define: authentication for users and identification
02:19:23 [karen_]
...this topic we think is more important topic; identification of content
02:19:28 [karen_]
...type of ID for sharing
02:19:40 [karen_]
...e.g. uuid, ISBN, e-code, etc.
02:19:52 [karen_]
...I would like to propose how to specify ID for sharing
02:19:57 [karen_]
...these are examples
02:20:01 [karen_]
[slide with code]
02:20:13 [karen_]
...we can add some kind of identifyer or source or metadata
02:20:22 [karen_]
...or associate second ID for library sharing
02:20:34 [karen_]
...if we can standardize ID for library sharing, this can be extended to other stores
02:20:38 [karen_]
...Thank is all, thank you
02:20:41 [karen_]
rrsagent, make minutes
02:20:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karen_
02:21:02 [karl]
q+ to ask about privacy issues and unique id. Not for now just for the record.
02:21:06 [karen_]
Murato-san: I want to point out that @ is an on-going activity
02:21:09 [karen_]
...really an on-going project
02:21:13 [karen_]
...please join the WG
02:21:19 [karen_]
Kobayashi-san: preview?
02:21:22 [Koji]
s/@/preview generation
02:21:26 [karen_]
...library sharing
02:21:56 [karen_]
Jim: interested in your input
02:22:18 [karen_]
Kobayashi-san: thank you for these fascinating presentations
02:22:21 [karen_]
...hard to handle
02:22:28 [karen_]
...large issues in a short amount of time
02:22:37 [karen_]
...all three presentations should be included in our priority list
02:22:54 [karen_]
...when all the presentations are finished, we will have discussion time at end of workshop
02:22:59 [karen_]
...impossible to reach conclusion
02:23:08 [karen_]
...If we can continue discussion of last session
02:23:20 [karen_]
...let me split the three presenters' discussions evenly
02:23:24 [karen_]
...Let us talk about three issues
02:23:30 [karl]
02:23:33 [karl]
ack karl
02:23:33 [Zakim]
karl, you wanted to ask if the lack of interoperability is a lack of specifications OR implementation differences with regards to something which is already specified. and to ask
02:23:36 [Zakim]
... about privacy issues and unique id. Not for now just for the record.
02:23:39 [karl]
ack karl
02:24:10 [karen_]
...briefly address previous questions
02:24:24 [karen_]
Ivan: the question was on plans for IG
02:24:24 [karen_]
...about metadata
02:24:30 [karen_]
...whether that IG deals with metadata and how
02:24:40 [karen_]
...the other part is whether the IG will deal with security issues
02:24:43 [karen_]
...May I answer?
02:24:49 [karen_]
...My name is Ivan Herman, W3C
02:25:00 [karen_]
...involved with this whole digital publishing activity
02:25:07 [karen_]
...Markus gave a partial answer
02:25:13 [karen_]
...Metadata on publishing world
02:25:21 [karen_]
...and end up with what libraries use
02:25:27 [karen_]'s incredibly complicated
02:25:45 [karen_]
...My personal reaction is that this is so complex that is may deserve a separate workshop
02:25:51 [karen_]
...and perhaps a separate Interest Grou
02:25:54 [karen_]
02:26:08 [karen_]
...Markus, Thierry and I are concerned about addressing the most urgent topics
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02:26:16 [karen_] we may go to another group
02:26:18 [AndChat|474201]
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02:26:27 [karen_]
Kobayashi-san: May I ask you about the security issue?
02:26:39 [karen_]
...what is going on about security issue in the IG
02:26:46 [karen_]
Ivan: I was not sure I understood the question right
02:26:57 [kaz]
/me Sharad
02:27:03 [karen_]
Sharad, Inte: First question was about metadata
02:27:08 [karen_]
...why are there so many metadata standards
02:27:17 [karen_]
...isn't that going to cause some confusion
02:27:24 [karen_]
...many publishers using different approaches
02:27:27 [karen_] you cannot search
02:27:32 [karen_]
...that will limit propogation and search
02:27:39 [karen_]
...and of course on security there are so many DRMs
02:27:50 [karen_]
...Reality is, used to have DRM
02:27:53 [karen_]
...correct me
02:28:01 [karen_]
...People can buy books from one store
02:28:27 [karen_]
...So if this group is working on internationalization and piracy is of concern to publishing
02:28:34 [karen_]
...maybe this group should work on this
02:28:40 [karen_]
Ivan: Important clarification
02:28:52 [karen_]
...this is an interest group that will collect requirements for other working groups
02:28:59 [karen_]
...we would not be allowed to come up with solution for DRM
02:29:09 [karen_]
...On DRM, Markus said it's a complex isssue
02:29:16 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
02:29:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
02:29:21 [karen_]
...and we could spend ten times as much times on this topic at this workshop
02:29:30 [karen_]
...for me, DRM is a business case issue not a technical issue
02:29:38 [karen_] a business case, I cannot give an opinion
02:29:47 [karen_]
...I am a poor techie who does not understand business
02:29:57 [karen_]
@: security is not limited
02:30:04 [kaz]
i/I am working for w3c keio/topic: Welcome/
02:30:05 [karen_]
Kobayashi-san: DRM is very complicated
02:30:14 [karen_]
...let us stop the DRM discussion
02:30:24 [karen_]
S: Security is not only DRM
02:30:27 [karen_] is broader
02:30:33 [karen_]
...want to clarify for the record
02:30:39 [kaz]
s/??? layout/vertical layout/
02:30:46 [karen_]
Kobayashi-san: let us address ruby
02:30:52 [karen_]
...It is common
02:31:00 [karen_]
...can you anse question?
02:31:08 [r12a]
is ruby common in running headers?
02:31:15 [plh]
I would believe that the IG can and should list the use cases and requirements related to DRM
02:31:31 [karen_]
@: running headers are used because we cannot use ruby
02:31:41 [karen_] a paper book running header contains ruby
02:31:51 [karen_]
..but other alternative ...what is more important
02:32:06 [karen_] code, what cannot be described in Japanese cannot be developed in computers
02:32:15 [karen_]
...@ should be more important than ruby
02:32:19 [karen_]
K: some images in line
02:32:30 [r12a]
02:32:34 [kaz]
02:32:37 [karen_]
02:32:50 [karen_]
Kobayashi-san: please raise hand and say name slowly
02:33:18 [karen_] Masato-san's presentation, it is important to draw difference between web documents and packed EPUB documents
02:33:32 [Koji]
02:33:33 [karen_]
...In Japanese market there are already two different types of ebooks
02:33:44 [karen_]
...traditional and newer
02:34:07 [karen_]
...Let's think about three types: web types, traditional and ebooks
02:34:15 [karen_]
...what are differences and similarities
02:34:25 [karen_]
...what should we focus on in W3C and EPUB IDPF?
02:34:31 [karen_]
...any questions or ideas, comments
02:34:50 [karen_] experience both vendors and publishers
02:34:56 [kaz]
i#Let me explain who I am#-> Murata-san's slide#
02:35:20 [karen_]
...not so important for this industry...just scanning
02:35:34 [karen_]
...we have to focus on how to realize layout for the next generations
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02:35:45 [karen_]
...bonded, simultaneous paper and digital books
02:35:52 [karen_]
...such kind of approaches is more important
02:36:02 [karen_]
Kobayashi-san: any other comments?
02:36:06 [kaz]
i#I am from Rakuten, Kobo division#-> Ishii-san's slides#
02:36:09 [karen_] traditional paper book sectors
02:36:19 [karen_]
@: Difficult
02:36:31 [karen_]
02:36:40 [karen_]
...whether it is traditional book
02:36:43 [karen_]
...or digital
02:36:56 [karen_]
...the content...once we can clarify we can convert into HTML
02:36:59 [karen_]
...but it's difficult
02:37:09 [karen_]
K: any other comments on the three types
02:37:21 [kaz]
i#Shinya Takami#->
02:37:23 [r12a]
02:37:25 [karen_]
@: traditional web and ebook
02:37:37 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
02:37:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
02:37:40 [karen_]
...differences are
02:37:55 [karen_]
...the images could be larger than one page and that can happen
02:38:03 [karen_]
...that is major difference I think
02:38:08 [karen_]
K: this discussion has long history
02:38:20 [karen_] Tamsun mentioned, why not use PDF?
02:38:33 [karen_]
M: can use HTML
02:38:39 [ivan]
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02:38:46 [r12a]
02:38:47 [karen_]
K: I am not sure satisfied with Murata-san's answer
02:38:59 [ivan]
02:39:59 [kaz]
s/koike: some images in line/K: some images in line/
02:40:16 [karen_]
Kobayashi-san: let's come back in last session
02:40:23 [karen_] Ishii-san's discussion
02:40:28 [kaz]
s/@: running headers are used/Koike-san: running headers are used/
02:40:31 [karen_]
...his list is very detailed, long and fascinating
02:40:39 [karen_]
...let us not get into the detailed discussion
02:40:44 [karen_]
...but the positioning of his requirements
02:40:48 [karen_]
...his requirements are
02:41:00 [karen_]
...set between W3C's specifications and EPUB specifications
02:41:08 [karen_]
...he does not know where he should bring such requiremetns
02:41:32 [karen_]
Ivan: So there is one point that is important
02:41:33 [kaz]
s/Koike-san should be more important/gaiji (un-coded character) should be more important/
02:41:36 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
02:41:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
02:41:36 [karen_]
...One of the jobs of the interest group
02:41:49 [karen_] that the IG has to provide eBook player specific test cases
02:41:59 [karen_] did refer to the testing on HTML5 and CSS
02:42:11 [karen_]
...True that currently those tests are dominated by the browser requiremetns
02:42:26 [karen_]
...One of aspects of IG will be provide additional tests from the publishing industry
02:42:34 [karen_]
...We will need help from you for those tests
02:42:39 [karen_]
...they are essential
02:42:56 [karen_]
...There is a partial answer on test cases that is important
02:43:14 [karen_]
K: One answer if we have difficult to handle issues, let's make test cases and bring them to the W3C IG
02:43:24 [karen_]
...any other comments on Ishii-san's requiremetns
02:43:43 [karen_]
Richard: I would like to talk about Murisan's needs in Internationalization aspects
02:43:58 [karen_]
K: I believe Ashimuri-san's sample is good
02:44:08 [karen_] to deal with it in Internationalization standard?
02:44:27 [kurui_]
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02:44:33 [karen_]
Kazuyiki Ashimura, W3C
02:44:41 [AndChat|474201]
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02:44:50 [karen_]
Kobayashi-san: Ashimura-san is a hybrid of two different types of complicated pages
02:44:54 [karen_]
...and image layout
02:45:05 [karen_]
M: I simplified things too much
02:45:12 [karen_]
...entirely fixed or entirely fluid
02:45:24 [karen_]
02:45:30 [karen_]
...possible to have mixture
02:45:39 [karen_]
...possible to have layouts combined
02:45:49 [karen_]
...if my WG provides a good solution to the rendition mapping problem
02:46:02 [karen_] can capture your example without too many style problems to rely on images
02:46:07 [ivan]
02:46:08 [karen_]
Ashimura-san: that could be an option
02:46:19 [karen_] point is how to inter-related different layout styles
02:46:32 [karen_]
...a bit strange to have merging from ebook viewpoint
02:46:42 [karen_]
...if this example [slide]
02:46:44 [karen_] an ebook
02:46:52 [karen_]
...maybe part one is this vertical layout
02:47:03 [karen_]
...and part two is the horizontal layout including Manga image
02:47:07 [karen_]
...and this @ part
02:47:13 [karen_]
...another interesting example
02:47:19 [karen_]
...this is index for TV program titles
02:47:35 [karen_]
...interesting point is basically the content is horizontal layout
02:47:44 [karen_] goes from top to the bottom
02:47:58 [karen_]
...and then it reaches end it goes to the left
02:48:05 [karen_]
...and we need to turn this page to this direction
02:48:09 [karen_]
...and next column starts here
02:48:34 [karen_]
...This magazine consists of three entirely different layouts
02:48:44 [karen_]
...So do you want to implement this in the ebooks context as well?
02:48:52 [karen_]
M: you can use in different renditions
02:49:04 [karen_]
Markus: it is traditionally reflowable
02:49:12 [karen_]
...valide to have pre-paginaged epubs
02:49:26 [karen_] you can have different text directions in those pre-defined pages
02:49:33 [karen_]
...not a problem, nice challenges [laughs]
02:49:47 [karen_]
Kobayashi-san: Thank you Ashimura-san for this nice example
02:49:54 [karen_]
...better for us to separate the requiremetns
02:50:01 [karen_]
...this sampel is very good
02:50:09 [karen_] extract the very complicated layout
02:50:31 [karen_] vertical and horizontal and some database generated tables and photos with vertical writings
02:50:38 [karen_]
...but I believe this kind of magazines
02:50:50 [karen_]
...the volumes drastically reduced in Japanese market
02:51:03 [karen_]
...they are being rapidly replaced by web information
02:51:06 [karen_]
...I think our goal is
02:51:14 [karen_] to make electronic book
02:51:18 [karen_]
...for the magazine as is
02:51:22 [karen_]
...what is the best solution to
02:51:26 [karen_]
...provide the informations
02:51:31 [karen_]
...included in this magazine
02:51:54 [karen_]
...Ashimura-san, please extract the requirements from this magazine, but not discuss how to make this magazine as is
02:51:57 [karen_]
...any comments?
02:52:04 [karen_]
Ashimura-san: yes, I compleely agree
02:52:16 [karen_]
...we should not concentrate how to solve the issues but the use case and what is required
02:52:22 [karen_]
K: We have eight minutes
02:52:28 [karen_]
...any comments on the three presentations
02:52:52 [karen_]
@: I would like to hear Bert's comments on Ishii-san's presentation on page model
02:53:13 [karen_]
Bert: I think I need to talk more about the long list of problems; so much to you
02:53:15 [karen_]
...base media
02:53:18 [ivan]
02:53:19 [karen_]
...we have something in CSS
02:53:23 [karen_]
...also working on new ideas
02:53:32 [kaz]
s/Session 1; Speakers: Makoto Murata, Koji Ishii, Shinya Takami/[ BREAK ]/
02:53:34 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
02:53:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
02:53:35 [karen_]
...that are only starting; Daniel Glazman has some ideas
02:53:41 [karen_]
...we will talk about this week at our meeting
02:53:45 [karen_]
...I know there are problems
02:53:52 [karen_]
...want to know what the requirements area
02:53:59 [karen_]
...some studies were based on print books
02:54:04 [karen_]
...need more on ebooks
02:54:18 [karen_]
...most of people in WG come from Western typography
02:54:45 [karen_]
...I know there are problems, so I'm interested in hearing more about requirements
02:54:53 [karen_]
Daniel: Rendering engine vendors
02:55:01 [karen_]
...focus on page loading and over the wire
02:55:13 [karen_]
...not so interested in batch processing and static documents
02:55:22 [karen_]
...why IDPF had to standardize things outside of @
02:55:28 [karen_] was not relevant for the dynamic web
02:55:45 [karen_]
...browser vendors don't want a few technologies if not relevant for web
02:55:57 [karen_]
...other is Webkit monopoly as rendering engine for ebook readers
02:56:12 [karen_]
...almost all of you are using the same engine so there is no competition and incentive
02:56:21 [karen_]
Ishii-san: one question to ask Daniel
02:56:37 [karen_]
...rather than each requirement I listed, they are examples for you to understand the primary topic
02:56:42 [karen_]
...the EPUB pages are not
02:56:49 [karen_]
...paged media as defined in CSS
02:57:05 [karen_]
...most EPUB RS vendors, especially on one major mobile platform where we cannot modify Webkit
02:57:12 [karen_]
...we have to make it usable on known page media
02:57:21 [karen_]
...if future versions take level 3 and make available
02:57:30 [karen_]
...we cannot implement for tablets
02:57:39 [karen_]
...wonder if EPUB pages shoudl be separated from page media
02:57:48 [karen_]
..or another type of media where we can define a frame
02:57:52 [karen_]
...within a browser
02:58:00 [karen_]
...and that frame has each pages
02:58:11 [karen_]
Daniel: We discussed a little bit about a session
02:58:16 [karen_]
...with Bill McCoy
02:58:27 [karen_]
...People from Hachette said they had to implement pagination over Webkit
02:58:32 [karen_]
...because it was not available
02:58:42 [karen_]
...pagination EPUB uses is similar to slidereader
02:58:59 [karen_]
...take same pagination scheme, I don't see why it should be limited to an EPUB page model, it's more global than that
02:59:03 [karen_]
I: I agree
02:59:13 [karen_]
...issue is that slide model is not available in CSS today or is it?
02:59:14 [ivan]
02:59:25 [karen_]
Richard: Can we move onto Internationalization examples?
02:59:31 [karen_]
...please let's keep on track
02:59:37 [karen_]
...I am getting some complaints
02:59:49 [karen_]
...So I have a question for Murato-san
02:59:59 [karen_]
I: a lot of issues come from image positioning and sizing
03:00:00 [karen_]
...not sure
03:00:06 [karen_]'s not Internationalization issues
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03:00:17 [karen_]
...but I'm not hearing those issues in other countries other than Japan
03:00:23 [karen_]
...but it's more important for Japan
03:00:30 [karen_]
Richard: Ok, that is a good point
03:00:34 [karen_]
...Let me ask my question
03:00:43 [takase]
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03:00:46 [karen_] would asking about restorized coent
03:00:48 [karen_]
03:00:57 [koike_]
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03:00:59 [karen_]
...Manga translated from Japanese into Chinese
03:01:02 [karen_]
...the sound effects
03:01:10 [karen_]
...lots of sound effects in Kanji
03:01:27 [karen_] the Chinese people do not hear the sound effects
03:01:31 [karl]
timely related - Layout analysis for National Geographic Web site
03:01:32 [karen_]
...if you rastorize the materials
03:01:34 [Norbert]
03:01:38 [karen_]
...perhaps if you use SVG?
03:01:43 [karen_] that a fair point?
03:01:53 [karen_]
M: multilingual example demonstrated yesterday
03:01:57 [karen_]
...accessibility is important
03:02:07 [karen_]
...we understand that existing Manga is completely rastorized
03:02:23 [karen_]
...difficult to provide nice fit in baloon
03:02:26 [ivan]
03:02:34 [karen_]
...One solution is to provide real text and rastorized text
03:02:42 [karen_]
...provide SVG and specificy invisible element
03:02:46 [karen_]
...that is a possibility
03:02:52 [karen_]
...or provide an underlined XML document
03:02:55 [karen_] another possibility
03:03:09 [karen_]
...we have not specified; rest is up to users or authors
03:03:14 [ivan]
03:03:17 [karen_]
...Yes, I understand your concern
03:03:27 [karen_]
...publishers only have rastorized Manga
03:03:35 [karen_] provide some features but rest is up to the market
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03:03:50 [karen_]
Markus: We saw a multilingual demo by Fujifilm
03:03:53 [karen_] did they do it?
03:03:59 [karen_]
M: small rastorized file
03:04:09 [karen_]
...on top of Japanese text
03:04:11 [ivan]
03:04:15 [karen_]
...the baloon shows text
03:04:22 [karen_]
...can be done easily with SVG animation
03:04:29 [karen_]
...don't need Javascript and we are happy to hear that
03:04:46 [karen_]
Ivan: I have a short question
03:04:49 [karen_]
...come back to that
03:04:57 [karen_]
...I am intrigued by one of your remarks, Murato-san
03:05:03 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
03:05:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
03:05:07 [karen_]
...that there is no real agreement whether vertical writing is important or not
03:05:15 [karen_]
...For us outsiders, this is a difficulty
03:05:22 [karen_]
...I had heard that it is very important in Japan
03:05:44 [karen_]
...Dicussion with Chinese friends say they don't want vertical writing except for historical text
03:05:50 [karen_]
...So I was surprised by your remark
03:05:58 [karen_]
...there was this strong contrast
03:06:06 [karen_]
...May be a longer discussion
03:06:17 [karen_]
M: Japanese could spend ten hours on this topic
03:06:36 [karen_]
Richard: we don't have to talk only about the topics that the speakers brough forward
03:06:41 [ivan]
03:06:44 [karen_]
K: Let's have lunch break and have discussions offline
03:06:44 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
03:06:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
03:06:56 [karen_]
Ashimura-san: lunch table is in front of the entrance
03:07:09 [karen_]
K: please next session speakers should prepare their connections
03:07:19 [karen_]
rrsagent, make minutes
03:07:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karen_
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04:01:51 [bert_]
ScibeNick: bert_
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04:02:09 [bert_]
[Richard thanks the organizers]
04:02:33 [bert_]
[... and the sponsors]
04:02:51 [shige]
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04:03:16 [bert_]
r12a: Next workshop in Paris in September. Talk to Liam about that one.
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04:04:19 [bert_]
[Next speaker is Shinyu Murakami, Antenna House]
04:05:19 [bert_]
murakami: CSS3 page implementation in Antenna House. AH is Uusing several W3C specifications.
04:05:40 [bert_]
... Particiapted in JLREQ.
04:06:05 [bert_]
... We're making ebooks and print books simultaneously.
04:06:21 [bert_]
... Cloud-authoring service, single source
04:06:27 [bert_]
... Uses CSS for ebook
04:06:42 [bert_]
... Uses CSS and/or XSL for print.
04:07:17 [bert_]
... Used by O'Reilly.
04:07:33 [bert_]
... Important aspects of CSS layout specs:
04:08:00 [bert_]
... About CSS3 Page for books today:
04:08:08 [Norbert]
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04:08:47 [bert_]
... Draft, but used today.
04:09:11 [bert_]
... With proprietary extensions.
04:10:01 [bert_]
... JLREQ is also available as a printed book, formatted this way.
04:10:18 [bert_]
... Many O'Reilly book also made with CSS.
04:10:39 [kaz]
i/ScibeNick:/scribenick: bert_/
04:10:49 [bert_]
... An O'Reilly book by Nelly McKesson describes how.
04:11:08 [kaz]
i/scribenick: bert_/[ LUNCH ]/
04:11:09 [bert_]
... It is made with AH Formatter.
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04:11:16 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
04:11:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
04:11:25 [bert_]
... Future:
04:11:40 [bert_]
... EPUB readers will have rich features.
04:12:05 [bert_]
... CSS3 Page for ebook layout issues.
04:12:16 [bert_]
... [shows examples of layout]
04:12:29 [bert_]
... Centered on page or in page corner.
04:12:41 [bert_]
... Positioning a picture.
04:12:49 [bert_]
... Page floats in draft spec.
04:13:19 [bert_]
... Image repeated in page margin area on all pages.
04:14:00 [bert_]
... This can be possible in future EPUB with CSS.
04:14:45 [bert_]
... JLREQ is also useful for page layout requirements,
04:14:45 [bert_]
... End notes, footnotes in vertical writing.
04:14:45 [bert_]
... Position of illustrations in vertical layout.
04:15:01 [bert_]
... I hope future CSS specs will standardize these requirements.
04:16:03 [bert_]
... [showing an example with Ruby]
04:16:28 [bert_]
... I made this example myself, it is not from a book.
04:16:39 [bert_]
... [another example, page floats]
04:16:52 [bert_]
... We can do this today, with CSS draft specs.
04:17:46 [bert_]
[next speaker is Bobby Tung]
04:18:31 [bert_]
Tung: What is bopomofo ruby?
04:18:48 [bert_]
... phonetic system, mainly in Taiwan.
04:18:59 [bert_]
... Used in education.
04:19:28 [bert_]
... 37 symbols + 4 tone marks.
04:20:04 [bert_]
... tone marks should be placed to the right of the other symbols.
04:20:46 [bert_]
... bopomofo of a character can be 1 to 4 symbols with or without a tone mark.
04:21:08 [bert_]
... Ministry of Education of Taiwan published composition rule for bopomofo in 2000.
04:21:23 [bert_]
... But almost impossible to do on the Web.
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04:21:50 [karl]
q+ to ask are there similar requirements for Cantonese (such as ruby but with more tones) or other languages?
04:22:00 [karl]
04:22:14 [bert_]
... Tone mark glyphs in Unicode since 1993. Glyphs do not satisfy MoE's requirements.
04:22:45 [bert_]
... [diagram of glyph size distributions]
04:23:02 [bert_]
... HTML mark-up needs nested ruby.
04:23:18 [bert_]
... CSS font size proportions.
04:23:36 [bert_]
... [screendump on Webkit]
04:23:47 [bert_]
... EPUB reflow.
04:24:27 [bert_]
... And in horizontal writing with CSS, should be displayed inline. Often looks terrible.
04:24:37 [bert_]
... Alignment is also an issue.
04:25:00 [bert_]
... Center baseline. Letter spacing issue needs investigation.
04:25:16 [bert_]
... Will need 'ruby-align: center'
04:25:32 [bert_]
... With relative font-size.
04:25:44 [ivan]
04:25:47 [bert_]
... Does this conflict with Japanese ruby requirements?
04:26:04 [takase]
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04:26:11 [bert_]
... I asked for alternative solutions.
04:26:20 [bert_]
... Some suggested web fonts.
04:26:44 [bert_]
... Lot of Chinese chars have alternative pronunciations.
04:26:49 [yasuharu]
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04:26:51 [bert_]
... We're working on tools.
04:27:17 [bert_]
... Marking up every character (in educational books) is too hard without a tool.
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04:27:36 [bert_]
... Government of Taiwan is willing to help implementers.
04:27:47 [murakami]
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04:28:29 [bert_]
[next speaker is Yasuki Ikeuchi]
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04:30:19 [ddavis]
q+ To ask how common instances of bopomofo and ruby for running headers (Japanese) are.
04:30:56 [bert_]
Ikeuchi: ACCESS EPUB 3.0 engine, fed back into Readium.
04:31:14 [bert_]
... Two issues:
04:31:46 [bert_]
... 1st is long ruby line breaks, found no work-around.
04:32:03 [kaz]
i|Yasuki Ikeuchi|-> Ikeuchi-san's slides|
04:32:11 [bert_]
... Ruby nakiwakare
04:32:43 [bert_]
... in light novels, for high school students.
04:32:53 [kaz]
rrsagent,, draft minutes
04:32:53 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand ', draft minutes', kaz. Try /msg RRSAgent help
04:32:54 [bert_]
... Reflow the ruby is difficult.
04:33:51 [bert_]
... Reflow the ruby over two uneven lines, or over two top-aligned lines, or split the base text?
04:34:19 [bert_]
... Kanbun is for classic Chinese text in translation.
04:34:31 [bert_]
... It is required in elementary school.
04:34:40 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
04:34:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
04:34:50 [bert_]
... Some features can be done with CSS Ruby.
04:34:55 [bert_]
... But not enough.
04:35:10 [bert_]
... JIS X4051 is the standard.
04:35:36 [bert_]
... [Kanbun examples]
04:36:24 [bert_]
... [shows some "normal" ruby and "kaeri ten" ruby]
04:36:35 [bert_]
... needs to reorder the characters.
04:37:07 [bert_]
... Kanbun sometimes has emphasis.
04:37:28 [bert_]
... Sometimes moved to left side of the vertical line.
04:37:48 [kaz]
i|Next speaker is Shinyu Murakami|-> Murakami-san's slides|
04:38:03 [bert_]
... Conclusion: currently difficult to resolve with CSS Ruby spec,
04:38:14 [bert_]
... but we have to solve it.
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04:38:28 [r12a]
04:38:36 [karl]
ack karl
04:38:36 [Zakim]
karl, you wanted to ask are there similar requirements for Cantonese (such as ruby but with more tones) or other languages?
04:38:36 [kaz]
i|next speaker is Bobby Tung|-> Bobby's slides|
04:38:38 [kaz]
04:39:29 [bert_]
Murata: Can you not use Unicode code points?
04:39:55 [bert_]
Ikeuchi: Yes, implementation issue.
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04:40:08 [bert_]
murata: so only implementation?
04:40:23 [bert_]
ikeuchi: But is also missing in the CSS spec.
04:41:16 [bert_]
Kobayashi: Kanbun is difficult to implement. It is also a small market. JLTF decided not to describe it.
04:41:16 [kaz]
i|Next speaker is Shinyu Murakami|-> Murakami-san's slides|
04:41:20 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
04:41:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
04:41:39 [bert_]
... Some inline text similar to bopomofo and ruby.
04:42:02 [bert_]
... Unicode has 10 kanbun characters, but that is not enough to correctly visualize.
04:42:21 [bert_]
... Usually the symbols are made from multiple chars, like ligatures.
04:42:42 [bert_]
... Glyphs can be huge. Costly for font vendors.
04:42:56 [ivan]
04:43:07 [bert_]
... other questions about last 3 talks?
04:43:37 [bert_]
Karl dubost: Ruby is very specialized.
04:43:40 [ivan]
ack ddavis
04:43:40 [Zakim]
ddavis, you wanted to ask how common instances of bopomofo and ruby for running headers (Japanese) are.
04:43:49 [bert_]
... Is there similar for other languages?
04:44:05 [bert_]
.. Is it reusable? Other inline annotations? More generic?
04:44:26 [bert_]
???: ruby-align: center
04:44:46 [kaz]
04:45:23 [bert_]
kobayashi: About Karl's question:
04:45:42 [bert_]
... Ruby is made for Japanese, but can be used for other languages.
04:45:54 [bert_]
... Who has examples of other uses?
04:46:02 [bert_]
... Bopomofo is an example.
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04:46:25 [bert_]
R12a: Used in Chinese. Bopomofo indeed has some issues.
04:46:39 [bert_]
... In HTML ruby spec we say is can be used generically.
04:46:44 [bert_]
... I've seen Arabic.
04:47:07 [bert_]
... But things like glosses are probably beter done with something that was designed to be generic.
04:47:31 [MikeSmith]
q+ to speak
04:47:43 [bert_]
... I think we should finsih ruby soon, use it for far-east. Then look at generic solutions.
04:48:16 [MikeSmith]
q+ to speak about ruby and need to focus on real requirements and not hypothetical ones and to get the current ruby spec implemented first
04:48:23 [bert_]
Kobayshi: When we use ruby in HTML, we tend to use inline annotation characters.
04:48:32 [bert_]
... Suggested that to Unicode.
04:48:46 [bert_]
... Ruby is similar to inline annotation.
04:49:04 [bert_]
... We have possibilities to use such taggings.
04:49:29 [bert_]
r12a: But Unicode doesn't do double-sided Unicode and some other things
04:49:58 [bert_]
kobayashi: Yes, long discussion possible between using HTML and using Unicode.
04:50:20 [bert_]
... We made a Note, Unicode and W3C, about tagging and functionality.
04:50:45 [bert_]
... If there are 2 descriptions, the tags take priority and the text is ignored.
04:50:51 [stearns_]
Arabic/Hebrew annotations are vowel marks with completely different layout considerations, AFAIK
04:51:05 [kaz]
04:51:47 [MikeSmith]
stearns_: yeah, let's please resist the tendency to want to shoehorn that other stuff into ruby
04:51:53 [bert_]
... Bobby Tung asked if Chinese bopomofo can live with ruby. Does it need more study?
04:52:11 [MikeSmith]
s/stearns_: yeah,/stearns_, yeah,/
04:52:14 [bert_]
murata: I'm interested in the answer. What mark-up structure is needed?
04:52:21 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
04:52:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
04:52:45 [bert_]
r12a: We have two or three ruby specs for mark-up, and one draft for style.
04:53:33 [bert_]
... 1st is [...], 2nd is HTML5, 3rd is Ruby Extension Spec.
04:53:43 [bert_]
... Who heard about the 3rd?
04:53:45 [shige]
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04:53:48 [bert_]
... [not many]
04:53:59 [bert_]
... And then there is the CSS draft.
04:54:22 [bert_]
... That determines the positioning. It is back to Working Draft.
04:54:57 [bert_]
... Some mark-up was not taken into account, and some other issues. That has to be fixed.
04:55:15 [bert_]
... I hear all the time that ruby is important.
04:55:36 [bert_]
... We can have the extension spec for HTML5, but only if we find implementations.
04:55:57 [bert_]
... Issue is then that it is incompatbile with ruby in HTML5 itself.
04:56:21 [bert_]
... Ruby is not going to be taken out of HTML5.
04:56:43 [bert_]
... But maybe some parts of it can be replaced.
04:57:14 [bert_]
... But I think we want the implementers to impl the extensions spec, which will then replace HTML5.
04:57:32 [bert_]
murata: Does the extension spec satisfy the Taiwanese requirements?
04:57:56 [bert_]
r12a: Yes, the structure is actually quite simple (in contrast to layout).
04:58:08 [bert_]
murata: So not for accents?
04:58:31 [MikeSmith]
before hoping that Mozilla and others implement the extension spec, let's please hope that they first implement ruby at all. Which they don't yet at all.
04:58:41 [MikeSmith]
04:58:49 [bert_]
r12a: Yes, the actual placement is done by the style. Need to mark it up, but tone marks are positioned by style.
04:59:05 [kawada_]
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04:59:10 [bert_]
... The extension spec doesn't specify that. Mark-up has no issue.
04:59:21 [bert_]
... But we need implementations.
04:59:34 [bert_]
murata: Bobby, do you agree?
05:00:11 [bert_]
bobby tung: I want to provide input to the CSS module.
05:00:26 [bert_]
... Because the style doens't look so well now, people don
05:00:34 [bert_]
... 't use it right now.
05:00:47 [bert_]
... Will try to impl in webkit this year.
05:01:05 [bert_]
r12a: I'm hoping something may happen today.
05:01:14 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
05:01:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
05:01:30 [bert_]
... We need browsers to implement. We need people to review the extension spec. And we need people to look at and help with the CSS spec.
05:01:33 [bert_]
... Who can help?
05:01:51 [stearns_]
link to extension spec here?
05:01:53 [bert_]
Mike Smith (W3C): I'm based here in Tokyo.
05:02:02 [bert_]
... I've spent lot of time on this.
05:02:13 [bobbytung]
ruby extension :
05:02:16 [bert_]
... Before the extension spec, we need impl of ruby at all.
05:02:26 [stearns_]
thanks, bobbytung
05:02:55 [bert_]
... Make contacts with implementers. I can provide names at Mozilla.
05:02:59 [kaz]
s/Karl dubost:/Karl_dubost:/
05:03:14 [bert_]
... Ruby base element is missing from impl.
05:03:19 [kaz]
s/bobby tung:/bobby_tung:/
05:03:23 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
05:03:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
05:03:31 [bert_]
... Priority is to get basic ruby implemented.
05:03:54 [bert_]
... Let's not add new requirements, especially hypothetical ones.
05:04:14 [bert_]
... If we really need them, we can consider putting them somewhere.
05:04:27 [kaz]
s/Mike Smith (W3C):/Mike_Smith_(W3C):/
05:04:28 [bert_]
r12a: What other requirements?
05:04:43 [bert_]
mike: E.g., using ruby in Arabic.
05:04:53 [bert_]
r12a: How do we make this happen?
05:05:15 [bert_]
mike: Knowing how the browser makers operate, they respond to business needs.
05:05:45 [bert_]
... E.g., Mozilla now wants to make a mobile OS, interested in getting device makers to use it.
05:06:04 [bert_]
... An e-book device could use it.
05:06:24 [bert_]
... So if you make a device, tell them what the requirements are.
05:06:54 [bert_]
Kobayashi: Mike's comments are important for us.
05:07:07 [bert_]
... How to implement the requirements.
05:07:42 [MikeSmith]
q+ to say that we from W3C can help broker discussions with implementors
05:07:47 [bert_]
... I have some questions:
05:07:50 [karl]
05:08:37 [kaz]
s/some questions:/a question to Ikeuchi-san/
05:09:23 [bert_]
... Problem is to generate e-books from legacy paper books?
05:09:45 [bert_]
... Sometimes we tend to only move the paper books as-is.
05:10:04 [bert_]
... But sometimes paper-books have some functionality, to realize, inform something.
05:10:14 [bert_]
... Ruby can be used as inline annotation.
05:10:38 [bert_]
... We may need to change the representation based on that,
05:11:06 [bert_]
Ishii: There could be different ways to present the ruby.
05:11:32 [bert_]
... But working with publishers, we haven't found better ways yet. Long ruby is an issue.
05:12:01 [bert_]
???: Talking as a publisher in Japan, long ruby tends to be used in light novels.
05:12:16 [kaz]
05:12:35 [bert_]
... Light novel very important and thus ruby very important.
05:13:23 [bert_]
Kaz: Ruby not just for pronunciation, also for annotations. EPUB includes pronunciation.
05:13:38 [yasuharu]
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05:13:52 [bert_]
... We imported phoneme elements into ruby.
05:14:18 [bert_]
... Maybe, as Kobayashi mentioned, we should now concentrate on annotation functions.
05:14:29 [r12a]
05:14:36 [kaz]
ack k
05:14:36 [r12a]
ack kaz
05:14:40 [ivan]
ack kaz
05:14:44 [ivan]
ack MikeSmith
05:14:44 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to speak and to speak about ruby and need to focus on real requirements and not hypothetical ones and to get the current ruby spec implemented first and to
05:14:47 [Zakim]
... say that we from W3C can help broker discussions with implementors
05:14:53 [r12a]
ack r12a
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05:15:11 [bert_]
Mike: Many people probably do not know how W3C works. We broker between parties.
05:15:27 [bert_]
... Requirements and implementers. W3C staff can help.
05:15:36 [bert_]
... Get involved in WGs.
05:15:48 [bert_]
... Ruby discussions are in HTML WG.
05:16:02 [bert_]
... I can help, so can Daniel Davis.
05:16:19 [bert_]
... It helps to be member of W3C.
05:16:36 [kaz]
s/We imported phoneme elements into ruby./We imported phoneme elements into SSML 1.1 for Ruby when when internationalized SSML/
05:16:39 [bert_]
... Members get direct access to us.
05:17:14 [bert_]
Ivan: The Interest Group we are setting up is for this. If the WG is too scary, the IG may be better.
05:17:26 [bert_]
... The IG is to collect, synthesize requirements.
05:17:51 [bert_]
... Make it usable by HTML, WG, CSS WG, I18N WG, etc.
05:18:07 [bert_]
r12a: I18N WG is working on a requirements document.
05:18:42 [bert_]
[break until 14:40]
05:19:26 [r12a]
s/I18N WG is working on a/I18n WG is about to publish a Note about use cases/
05:26:39 [Koji]
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05:29:07 [kotakagi]
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05:40:12 [ddavis]
scribenick: ddavis
05:40:19 [ddavis]
scribenick: ddavis
05:40:35 [ddavis]
05:40:50 [Koji]
Koji has joined #ebooki18n
05:41:00 [ddavis]
ddavis has joined #ebooki18n
05:41:24 [ddavis]
r12a: Let's start with the next session.
05:41:29 [sam_]
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05:41:35 [ddavis]
... Again, we're going to hear three people's ideas.
05:41:43 [ddavis]
... Discussion will be afterwards.
05:41:53 [ddavis]
... Norbert Lindenberg to start.
05:42:09 [ddavis]
Norbert: Will talk about JavaScript and ebooks.
05:42:23 [ddavis]
...How we can take books and make them more interactive.
05:42:35 [yasuharu]
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05:42:38 [ddavis]
... First thing is an intro to the JavaScript platform.
05:42:52 [ddavis]
... Firstly, the ECMA organisation based in Switzerland.
05:43:00 [ddavis]
... They define the language and core API.
05:43:14 [ddavis]
... and Internationalization API.
05:43:26 [ddavis]
... W3C defines DOM, etc. with access to JavaScript
05:43:42 [ddavis]
... and specifications such as XHR to communicate with service
05:43:56 [AndChat474201]
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05:44:00 [ddavis]
... Then there are libraries such as jQuery, Dojo, YUI, Node.
05:44:14 [ddavis]
... Core ECMAScript language started with Unicode
05:44:22 [ddavis]
... Originally UTF-16
05:44:54 [ddavis]
... Still some areas of Unicode using 16-bit encoding
05:45:06 [ddavis]
... Sometimes difficult to work with these characters with JavaScript
05:45:20 [ddavis]
... This is being address in ECMAscript 16
05:45:36 [ddavis]
... Also adding normalization
05:45:51 [ddavis]
... and the ability to understand unicode properties.
05:46:08 [ddavis]
... We've been working on an i18n API
05:46:18 [ddavis]
... This allows string comparison and sorting
05:46:34 [ddavis]
... Support for numbers, currency, date and time formatting
05:46:48 [AndChat|474201]
AndChat|474201 has joined #ebooki18n
05:46:57 [ddavis]
... Number formatting can be Arabic, Indic
05:47:29 [ddavis]
.. The same thing for dates - Korean, Japanese, Thai, Roman-alphabet, etc.
05:47:38 [karl] ->The ECMAScript Internationalization API
05:47:45 [ddavis]
... Note that the Thai year is not 2013 - in this case is 2556
05:48:05 [ddavis]
... Now started work on version 2.0 of i18n API with target of completion by end of 2014
05:48:19 [ddavis]
... This will include time zone supports, e.g. for meetings
05:48:31 [kotakagi]
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05:48:32 [ddavis]
... Also text segmentation (word breaking, sentence breaking)
05:48:45 [glazou]
q+ have you seen mozilla's webL10n javascript i18n / l10n library?
05:48:56 [ddavis]
... Enables search engine creation with JavaScript
05:49:12 [glazou]
q+ to ask if speaker knows about mozilla's webL10n javascript i18n / l10n library?
05:49:18 [ddavis]
... Also support for message formatting, e.g. gender and plural handling
05:49:26 [ddavis]
... Useful for languages such as French, Arabic, etc.
05:49:51 [ddavis]
... EPUB 3 now allows <script> tag
05:50:13 [ddavis]
... Works with things outside HTML5 such as XHR (not officially part of HTML5)
05:50:40 [ddavis]
... There are few implementations so far so cannot currently create a book containing this.
05:50:44 [ddavis]
... How do people use this?
05:50:54 [ddavis]
... Drawing and animations using HTML canvas.
05:51:07 [ivan]
q+ how wide is time implementations of the I18N API in browsers?
05:51:14 [ddavis]
... for example making textbooks with quizzes and other interactive components
05:51:24 [ddavis]
... Can create multilingual books
05:51:40 [AndChat474201]
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05:51:50 [ddavis]
... The user typically only needs one language - let them select the right one.
05:51:50 [AndChat474201]
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05:52:03 [ddavis]
... The boundary blurs between a book and an application as interactivity increases.
05:52:13 [ddavis]
... The big question is...
05:52:20 [ddavis]
... What kind of requirements are there?
05:52:27 [stearns_]
q+ ivan to ask how wide is time implementations of the I18N API in browsers?
05:52:32 [ddavis]
... What's needed for people to write books?
05:52:51 [kurui]
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05:52:53 [ddavis]
[Norbert shows a multilingual demo]
05:53:24 [ddavis]
[Selecting language from select box modifies DOM and stylesheet to only show text for that language]
05:53:59 [ddavis]
glazou: Want to mention a library created by Mozilla
05:54:06 [ddavis]
... called webl10n
05:54:16 [ddavis]
... using it to localize Firefox OS
05:54:24 [ddavis]
... Can do gender, plural, "everything"
05:54:47 [ddavis]
... JavaScript is still needed in EPUB if you want to take advantage of Web APIs, for example ambient light.
05:54:49 [plh]
ack glazou
05:54:49 [Zakim]
glazou, you wanted to ask if speaker knows about mozilla's webL10n javascript i18n / l10n library?
05:55:03 [kaz]
kaz has joined #ebooki18n
05:55:08 [ddavis]
... We don't have media queries in CSS 2 to handle that so you still need JS (unfortunately)
05:55:22 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
05:55:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
05:55:27 [karl]
05:55:29 [ddavis]
[Change of speaker: kotakagi]
05:55:49 [glazou]
URL for Mozilla's webL10n :
05:56:03 [ddavis]
[Sorry, speaker is now kawabata]
05:56:27 [ddavis]
kawabata: Like to talk about three topics: metadata, ruby, multilanguage
05:56:38 [ddavis]
... Bit surprised so many ruby topics today
05:57:02 [ddavis]
... Would like to introduce Ateji - refers to kanji (Japanese characters) used phonetically to represent native or borrowed words
05:57:16 [ddavis]
... Used very often in Japanese novels, often used in ruby
05:57:38 [ddavis]
... In this case, ruby is not used for pronunciation but for connotation and meaning
05:57:39 [jdovey]
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05:57:59 [ddavis]
... Many "light novels" have ateji which should be displayed with ruby
05:58:23 [ddavis]
... the ruby above the title shows pronunciation but it is different to regulary pronunciation
05:58:42 [ddavis]
... Metadata of EPUB 3 encapsulates publication information
05:58:44 [karl] → About Light Novel mentioned a few times during the workshop for reference.
05:58:54 [ddavis]
... the problem is that current metadata does not provide ruby support
05:58:59 [ddavis]
... Is it really needed?
05:59:14 [ddavis]
... Many ebook shops & websites just use brackets instead of ruby
05:59:29 [ddavis]
... If it's really needed, we have three possible solutions
05:59:46 [ddavis]
... One is interlinear annotation characters, talked about by Kobayashi-san
05:59:58 [ddavis]
... For example, we can used Unicode
06:00:16 [ddavis]
... The second topic is unencoded characters in metadata.
06:00:34 [ddavis]
... Problem is unencoded or non-JIS chars sometimes appear in book titles
06:00:48 [karl]
Interlinear annotation Unicode character
06:00:50 [ddavis]
... metadata may not provide the wayto display unencoded chars
06:01:02 [ddavis]
... The reader may not be able to display foreign script
06:01:16 [ddavis]
... Is it enough to just use = for metadata?
06:01:27 [ddavis]
... A possible solution is a font for specific metadata
06:01:54 [ddavis]
... May also use IDC (Ideographic Description Characters)
06:02:11 [ddavis]
... Also IVS (Ideographic Variation ...)
06:02:32 [ddavis]
... For the body, xml:lang is most popular way to specify language
06:02:50 [ddavis]
... Four aspects to language specification
06:03:06 [ddavis]
... Fonts, Text Layout Rules, Hyphenations, Pronunciations and Speech
06:03:24 [ddavis]
... Problem is what if some language is not supported by the reading device?
06:03:34 [shie]
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06:03:46 [ddavis]
... What if the layout requirement is complex such as Chinese font, Japanese layout
06:04:16 [ddavis]
... This was a summary of three issues. Do they really need to be solved?
06:04:19 [ddavis]
... If so, how?
06:04:34 [ddavis]
... Low-end friendly or high-featured solution?
06:05:06 [Norbert]
06:05:10 [Norbert]
06:05:19 [ddavis]
[Changing speaker to kyoji]
06:05:34 [ddavis]
... Topic: "I want to enrich more fonts in eBooks"
06:05:57 [ddavis]
... Toppan is developing a font for reading ebooks
06:06:11 [ddavis]
... Prototype is Toppan Mincho
06:06:16 [yasuharu]
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06:06:22 [ddavis]
... Mincho font is good for vertical writing Japanese text
06:06:28 [ddavis]
... Also Gothic font
06:06:37 [ddavis]
... Gothic is better for horizontal Japanese text
06:07:02 [ddavis]
... 1. There are currently few fonts to choose from
06:07:10 [ddavis]
... 2. Fonts can be changed by the system
06:07:22 [ddavis]
... 3 There are still too few fonts
06:07:38 [ddavis]
... For ebooks, less that 10 fonts compared to more than 1000 for book
06:07:42 [ddavis]
06:08:05 [ddavis]
... Devices have between 2 and 6 fonts and change what is specified in ebook
06:08:27 [ddavis]
... Issues with East Asian fonts - very large (characters and file size)
06:08:34 [ddavis]
... Expensive and time-consuming to produce
06:09:06 [ddavis]
... We went from text communication to printing to digital communication
06:09:21 [ddavis]
... We should provide reader with text that is 1. easy to read
06:09:26 [ddavis]
... 2. Difficult to misread
06:09:33 [ddavis]
... 3. Has nice appearance
06:09:42 [ddavis]
... Thre things are important for realization
06:09:47 [ddavis]
... 1. Text layout specs
06:09:52 [ddavis]
... 2. Rendering engine
06:09:55 [ddavis]
... 3. Fonts
06:10:25 [ddavis]
... With this, you can perform more natural textual representation to provide a better user experience
06:10:41 [ddavis]
... We need better technical support for embedding fonts
06:10:57 [ddavis]
... Implementation of embedding fonts is not difficult
06:11:11 [ddavis]
... Biggest challenge is distributing free-of-charge fonts
06:11:28 [ddavis]
... Problem is solved in PDF but not in EPUB. Need to consider why not.
06:11:44 [karl]
q+ to ask if there are copyrights on Japanese fonts
06:11:56 [ddavis]
[Discussion time]
06:12:09 [ddavis]
06:12:20 [r12a]
06:13:29 [r12a]
06:13:30 [ddavis]
ivan: To Norbert - What is the implementation of i18n
06:13:34 [r12a]
ack ivan
06:13:34 [Zakim]
ivan, you wanted to ask how wide is time implementations of the I18N API in browsers?
06:13:40 [karl]
Myth? In Japan, typeface has been held not to be covered by copyright, on the ground that it functions primarily as a means of communicating information, rather than to appeal to aesthetic appreciation.[5]— ^ Yagi v. Kashiwa Shobo K.K., II-1 Chosakuken Hanreishu 8 (9 Mar. 1979, Tokyo District Court) (the Typeface Design Case), cited in Karjala, Dennis S.; Sugiyama, Keiji (Autumn, 1988). "Fundamental Concepts in Japanese and American Copyright Law". The A
06:13:40 [karl]
merican Journal of Comparative Law 36 (4): 613, 625–26. JSTOR 840277.
06:13:40 [karl]
06:13:40 [ddavis]
ivan: First implenetation came out in Chrome this year
06:13:50 [ddavis]
06:14:02 [ddavis]
Norbert: Firefox will release implementation soon. Microsoft to follow.
06:14:10 [ddavis]
... Not heard from Opera or Apple
06:14:18 [kyoji]
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06:14:21 [ddavis]
ivan: so at the moment it's a Google Chrome implementation?
06:14:36 [ddavis]
Norbert: Google implementation is a Chrome add-on, so not in WebKit
06:15:08 [ddavis]
ivan: Vast majorities of ebook readers at end of line using WebKit
06:15:23 [ddavis]
... so it's not possible to know when they will get the i18n implementation
06:15:29 [r12a]
ack karl
06:15:29 [Zakim]
karl, you wanted to ask if there are copyrights on Japanese fonts
06:15:38 [ddavis]
karl: I often heard that Japanese fonts were not covered by copyright
06:15:46 [ddavis]
... so people can use them freely. Is this true?
06:15:57 [ddavis]
... If so why don't ereaders have more fonts?
06:16:28 [ddavis]
06:16:36 [ddavis]
Tahara: In each font is the creator's name
06:16:46 [kaz]
q+ to ask mainly Norbert about "interaction", also would like the other speakers about their opinions
06:16:56 [ddavis]
Kobayashi: Let me clarify, there is no intellectual property?
06:17:06 [ddavis]
Tahara: There is IP, but you can use it freely
06:17:23 [ddavis]
... For example, you can re-use them as web fonts
06:17:45 [ddavis]
Kobayashi: So we can copy a font to a server and anyone can freely download it?
06:18:10 [ddavis]
Ishii: What Tahara-san is trying to say is fonts are protected by IP law
06:18:19 [Liam-jp]
[I think there are two separate confusing issues, people can use the font in practice by they _are_ protected by copyright]
06:18:22 [ddavis]
... Font technology doesn't have copyright
06:18:35 [Liam-jp]
s/have copyright/have copy protection/
06:18:36 [karl]
"Fundamental Concepts in Japanese and American Copyright Law"
06:18:36 [r12a]
06:18:37 [ddavis]
... I looked at rumour - no idea where it came from
06:19:07 [ddavis]
r12a: In PDF you get Japanese fonts but in ebooks you don't
06:19:18 [ddavis]
... You (kyoji) suggested that embedding was solution
06:19:31 [ddavis]
... Japanese font could be very large - is that an issue?
06:19:43 [ddavis]
kyoji: It's a problem of size?
06:20:01 [ddavis]
r12a: Yes. You might have a small page but the font's file size could be several MB
06:20:20 [ddavis]
kyoji: The average font use is 3,000 characters
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06:20:53 [ddavis]
Kobayashi: If we try to implement the full set it would be around 20,000 characters
06:21:03 [AndChat474201]
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06:21:06 [ddavis]
... But common titles have only around 3,000 chars in their text
06:21:20 [ddavis]
... so it's easy to make a specific subset for a particular book
06:21:25 [r12a]
06:21:27 [ddavis]
... and therefore embed in an ebook
06:21:46 [r12a]
06:21:57 [ddavis]
jdovey: If you're downloading a book with 2MB subset font, with 200 books in your library that's a lot of data.
06:22:10 [r12a]
ack r12a
06:22:10 [ddavis]
... Especially if you're downloading the same font each time
06:22:13 [karl]
font subsetting
06:22:24 [ddavis]
... That's why reading system vendors like to stick to a few nice fonts
06:23:11 [ddavis]
Liam-jp: To Norbert - you mentioned JavaScript API for doing line-breaking
06:23:21 [ddavis]
... When it comes to downloadable/embedded fonts
06:23:29 [r12a]
ack liam
06:23:29 [Zakim]
Liam-jp, you wanted to ask norbert about js api for adding glyphs to fonts on the fly and adding to opentype tables
06:23:33 [ddavis]
... let's suppose you have a form in an ebook
06:23:45 [r12a]
06:23:50 [ddavis]
... if it says "enter your name" your name characters might not be in the embedded font
06:24:08 [ddavis]
... but with JS you could download character fonts on-the-fly. Has this been considered?
06:24:19 [ddavis]
Norbert: It has been considered but not defined yet.
06:24:30 [ddavis]
... TC39 aims to be a very generic platform
06:24:44 [ddavis]
... ECMAScript should be able to used on servers, DVD players, etc...
06:24:58 [ddavis]
... W3C might be able to specify this
06:25:04 [Masakazu_Kitahara]
06:25:33 [ddavis]
Bobby: In Taiwan, there are about 50,000 chars in traditional characters
06:25:45 [ddavis]
... More that 25MB for one font so that same issue
06:26:04 [ddavis]
... There are systems where if I upload my ebook it will generate a subset of the font
06:26:25 [ddavis]
... Regarding JS-generated characters, this issue is more important for trad Chinese than Japanese
06:27:04 [ddavis]
... We want to use the system fonts but in iOS or Android, even Mac OSX, they just have Gothic (sans-serif) but we want to read books in Mincho (serif)
06:27:22 [ddavis]
... Font-face with unicode range could be good
06:27:38 [ddavis]
Kobayashi: As a unicoder...
06:28:15 [ddavis]
... Currently JavaScript/ECMAScript cannot describe all of commonly-used Japanese kanji characters, which are endorsed by Japanese government
06:28:23 [r12a]
06:28:30 [ddavis]
... I'd like to ask Norbert to support UTF-16
06:29:01 [ddavis]
... Let's wrap up the font issue - any questions?
06:29:29 [ddavis]
r12a: You talked about unicode range but there are some characters that are shared between East Asian and Latin text.
06:29:52 [ddavis]
... when you use unicode range, you can't distinguish which space turns up. You get wide or narrow spaces.
06:30:16 [ddavis]
... I've read books containing both Japanese & Chinese. I use the unicode range to solve that problem.
06:30:24 [ddavis]
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06:31:01 [ddavis]
Masakazu_Kitahara: We have a "book-in-browser" ebook reader
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06:31:06 [r12a]
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06:31:17 [ddavis]
... When we try to use browser fonts, we also allow web fonts
06:31:38 [ddavis]
... Changing to web font - we need to know whether it's allowed
06:31:45 [ddavis]
... Whether it's OK to leave the web font on the server
06:32:00 [ddavis]
... Is it OK if we convert the font?
06:32:22 [ddavis]
... If we serve ebooks, is it OK to change the fonts to web fonts?
06:32:45 [ddavis]
Kobayashi: That's very difficult to answer. A sort of political issue.
06:32:57 [ddavis]
... let me try.
06:33:15 [ddavis]
... Before we jump into discussion of specifications, we need to talk with font vendors
06:33:29 [sam]
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06:33:38 [ddavis]
... In Japan, the situation is very vague for historical reasons
06:33:55 [ddavis]
... Some font vendors went to a lower court
06:34:01 [ddavis]
... but there was no conclusion
06:34:17 [ddavis]
... so it was recommended to make a settlement
06:34:39 [ddavis]
... However, in general, more than ten years ago, there was an example in American law
06:34:43 [ddavis]
... between some font vendors.
06:35:03 [ddavis]
... The conclusion was that there was no IP for the font design
06:35:11 [ddavis]
... but the font name can be protected by law.
06:35:35 [ddavis]
... So Japanese font vendors have been believing we can protect IP with font naming issues and product/software issues
06:35:47 [r12a]
06:35:52 [ddavis]
... Font vendors do not speak up to protect their IP but they make a private contract with their user
06:36:05 [ddavis]
... In that situation, it's very difficult to answer Masakazu_Kitahara's question
06:36:17 [ddavis]
... but now is a good time to openly discuss this.
06:36:31 [ddavis]
... with ebook vendors, font vendors, browser vendors.
06:36:42 [ddavis]
... I'd like to call upon Masakazu_Kitahara to talk with stakeholders.
06:37:03 [ddavis]
kaz: Question to Norbert
06:37:20 [ddavis]
... Norbert mentioned fully interactive ebook. What kind of interactions are expected?
06:37:26 [ddavis]
... Do you have some examples?
06:37:37 [ddavis]
Norbert: It's open to imagination.
06:37:46 [ddavis]
... There's a fine line between ebooks and web applications
06:37:47 [fantasai]
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06:38:20 [ddavis]
... Like textbooks, such as iBooks
06:38:58 [ddavis]
Murasaki: One interesting target is textbook
06:39:12 [ddavis]
... People would like to use epub to distribute textbooks, and HTML5
06:39:23 [ddavis]
... I don't know what will happen - in 2 years it will become clear.
06:39:44 [ddavis]
kaz: HTML5 has started to move towards speech recognition
06:39:51 [ddavis]
... which is interesting for ebooks
06:40:01 [ddavis]
Norbert: This is possible for ebooks in general.
06:40:07 [ddavis]
... For EPUB, not sure.
06:40:26 [ddavis]
... EPUB only has references to HTML5 so at some point, maybe EPUB should be updated
06:40:29 [r12a]
06:40:35 [kaz]
ack k
06:40:35 [Zakim]
kaz, you wanted to ask mainly Norbert about "interaction", also would like the other speakers about their opinions
06:40:37 [ddavis]
... to indicate which parts of HTML5 should be supported.
06:40:38 [r12a]
ack kaz
06:41:03 [ddavis]
Ivan: I have seen some ebook examples which show fancy features
06:41:19 [ddavis]
... technically it's ePUB, customized by Apple
06:41:34 [ddavis]
... In your (Norbert) presentation, you said we need to use a book in e.g. 20 years.
06:41:37 [Masakazu_Kitahara]
06:41:57 [ddavis]
... In my experience, I would try to reduce JS as much as possible because I don't know what I can use in 20 years.
06:42:15 [ddavis]
... We are always in a changing state with wonderful APIs but who implements it, who does not?
06:42:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fantasai
06:42:32 [ddavis]
... I'm a bit cynical about it but that's the problem I have with JS in ebooks.
06:42:43 [ddavis]
Norbert: Does the book have DRM (joke)?
06:42:51 [ddavis]
... Let's not go there!
06:43:08 [ddavis]
... For JavaScript, anything that works today also has to work in 5 or 10 years.
06:43:21 [ddavis]
Ivan: My worry is not language, it's the set of APIs.
06:44:04 [ddavis]
Markus: EPUB has a preference for declarative syntax but we understand JS is needed for "bling"
06:44:11 [Norbert]
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06:44:12 [ddavis]
... and sometimes crucial e.g. for education.
06:44:30 [ddavis]
... This is why we don'T specify which APIs.
06:44:44 [ddavis]
... For EPUB 3, we knew we would regret it.
06:44:58 [ddavis]
... THe industry is moving from EPUB 2 which didn't allow JS at all.
06:45:13 [ddavis]
... But I doubt there'll be something set in stone in future.
06:45:30 [ddavis]
... iBooks is just one of three EPUB implementations which is most liberal in allowing scripting.
06:45:46 [ddavis]
... But other organisations continue to use EPUB 2 which is not interoperable.
06:46:23 [ddavis]
glazou: To Markus - we need JS to localize ebooks
06:46:34 [ddavis]
... If you want books to be interactive you have to localize the alerts, etc.
06:46:46 [ddavis]
... You're not going to have separate readers for EPUB 2 / 3
06:46:59 [ddavis]
... Therefore readers will have to support scripting eventually.
06:47:06 [ddavis]
... WHat do you think?
06:47:21 [ddavis]
Markus: I think it'S a good thing - desirable.
06:47:39 [ddavis]
... Maybe we'll find ourselves where we'll need a subset of APIs for ebooks in particular
06:47:43 [ddavis]
... Maybe in a year or two
06:47:54 [ddavis]
glazou: So probably a revision of EPUB 2?
06:48:05 [ddavis]
Markus: No, because a lot will have to be redone.
06:48:11 [ddavis]
... Maybe look into EPUB 3
06:48:51 [ddavis]
Kobayashi: We'll now have a short break before conclusion.
06:48:55 [ddavis]
... One small question...
06:48:56 [shige]
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06:49:05 [ddavis]
... about metadata raised by Kawabata-san
06:49:11 [ddavis]
... Any additional comments?
06:49:26 [r12a]
06:49:39 [ddavis]
Kawabata: Metadata has not enough functionality for describing publications
06:49:50 [ddavis]
... I just mentioned a few problems.
06:50:31 [ddavis]
Murasaki Recently had a chance to discuss with decision-making bodies.
06:50:38 [ddavis]
... THey agree this is a mess.
06:50:45 [ddavis]
Ivan: A mess is an understatement
06:51:20 [ddavis]
... Regarding not having enough functionality in metadata, if I use metadata using set vocabulary, I cannot put something that e.g. has ruby.
06:51:27 [ddavis]
... Is this the problem?
06:51:46 [ddavis]
... E.g. if I use Dublin Core in EPUB metadata.
06:52:00 [ddavis]
... That's a pure string, so I can't use ruby. Is that the problem?
06:52:18 [ddavis]
Kawabata: Not only that. Also ordering of surname/given name, etc.
06:52:43 [ddavis]
Ivan: What you say is a real problem. The fact that the Japanese invert the name is the same in my native language.
06:53:06 [ddavis]
... That's a vocab issue and the EPUB allows extended vocabularies, so that doesn't seem very complex.
06:53:30 [ddavis]
... The other problem that you can't add markup in metadata is a bigger problem.
06:53:31 [ddavis]
06:54:30 [ddavis]
Kobayashi: I understand this metadata is a difficult issue
06:54:39 [ddavis]
ddavis: Particularly important for author names
06:54:58 [ddavis]
Markus: EPUB package file is raw XML which doesn't take styles and markup
06:55:05 [ddavis]
... this also applies to phonics
06:55:19 [ddavis]
... The core issue is when you use raw XML which is not extended to allow HTML fragments, etc.
06:55:44 [fantasai]
MikeSmith, Mozilla is holding off on implementing ruby partly due to there not being a CSS spec for it; there's problems with existing implementations we don't want to exacerbate.
06:55:50 [ddavis]
06:56:07 [ddavis]
Murasaki: Bidi, bidi, bidi (sigh)
06:56:32 [ddavis]
Kobayashi: Sometimes plain text is not good enough so let us continue to think of this.
06:56:38 [ddavis]
... but let's have 5 minutes break.
06:57:02 [ddavis]
... Meet back at 16:05 by my Japanese watch.
06:57:06 [ddavis]
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07:00:39 [MikeSmith]
fantasai, that strikes me as a pretty lame reason. there's no dispute about the basic support. it's what's already been implemented in IE for ages now, and deployed in production by many sites, so it's not going to change. nothings preventing you from implementing that baseline support
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07:07:59 [karen_]
Scribe: Liam Quin, W3C
07:08:11 [Liam-jp]
scribenick: liam
07:08:26 [ivan]
scribenick: liam-jp
07:08:29 [Liam-jp]
r12a: [thanks speakers]
07:08:38 [kyoji_]
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07:08:42 [Liam-jp]
r12a: what we want to get out of the Workshop...
07:08:52 [Liam-jp]
is a set of points to put to the i18n WG in particular.
07:08:57 [Liam-jp]
This is when we do that.
07:08:59 [Koji]
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07:09:15 [Liam-jp]
So I need to hear from you what the concerns are related to [i18n]
07:09:54 [Liam-jp]
The points specifically relating to Internationalization to put to the [Digital Publishing] Interest Group [at W3C].
07:10:05 [Liam-jp]
[opens the floor]
07:10:35 [Liam-jp]
r12a: are we done? is everything fine?
07:10:55 [Liam-jp]
Marcus: starting from the end because that's all I remember now! Metadata values containing rich markup ...
07:11:06 [Liam-jp]
ruby, directionality, maybe custom embedded fonts
07:11:14 [Liam-jp]
e.g. use of the Unicode private use area
07:11:38 [Liam-jp]
so maybe not a requirement for the open web platform, but in metadata that the industry has and in epub it's a problem
07:12:10 [Liam-jp]
Ivan: It is a problem for the IG, in that if this is a documented requirement it comes back to the those WGs responsible
07:12:18 [Liam-jp]
for the serialization of metadata and for metadata
07:13:08 [murakami]
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07:13:08 [Liam-jp]
Bert: I heard about ruby, that it was mentioned as specific to Japanese. Are there more examples, where we need to compare different systems together?
07:13:33 [Liam-jp]
Maybe the IG can collect examples from multiple languages and compare requirements.
07:14:02 [Liam-jp]
r12a: I'm not sure there's a language-specific requirement for annotation-like mechanisms in other script but there may be a general requirement for glosses ...
07:14:18 [Liam-jp]
but the specific linguistic issue is the ruby we use in Japanese and Chinese.
07:14:48 [Liam-jp]
Bert: I'm thinking about hyphenation - I know about french, german, english... is that enough to know about other languages? What about linebreaking rules?
07:14:54 [Norbert]
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07:15:01 [Liam-jp]
footnote placement, is that universal?
07:15:15 [Liam-jp]
Our CSS drafts, we only know about a few languages.
07:15:30 [Liam-jp]
I'd like to know how generic these things are in different cultures.
07:15:39 [Liam-jp]
glazou: Hebrew has another example: ...
07:15:59 [Liam-jp]
books for young children often use a mechanism like ruby to show pronunciation, since Hebrew has no vowels
07:16:31 [Liam-jp]
I'm thinking also of poetry, the way a line that overflows is formatted is different between languages.
07:16:48 [Liam-jp]
We [CSS] can't collect examples, we need help.
07:17:05 [Liam-jp]
r12a [asks if it's Hebrew cantillation]
07:17:15 [Liam-jp]
glazou: also words printed over Hebrew letters sometimes.
07:18:10 [Liam-jp]
Ivan: We had the discussion about fonts. I am not an expert on that. Whether it's necessary/possible to extend woff formats to be better prepared for this partial font specification/download
07:18:32 [Liam-jp]
Bert: I think that's not for woff, but for opentype
07:19:17 [ddavis]
07:19:31 [Liam-jp]
r12a, others: subsetting is done.
07:19:59 [Liam-jp]
aaa: [via translation] the essence of fonts, there are more than 1,000 fonts available on paper, but for ebooks only a very few.
07:20:24 [Liam-jp]
Rights-holders of fonts have not given permission to make those fonts available for downloading.
07:20:30 [Liam-jp]
Ivan: this is not a technical issue
07:20:46 [Liam-jp]
r12a: [making a list, projecting, asks people to correct the list if needed]
07:21:19 [takase]
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07:24:02 [Liam-jp]
Hoika: pagination of vertical writing mode issues
07:24:06 [Liam-jp]
the position of images in the float
07:24:10 [Liam-jp]
what are the positions of text
07:24:14 [Liam-jp]
this relates to pagination
07:24:16 [Liam-jp]
and also RUBY
07:24:33 [Liam-jp]
if Rubies are more than one pages then can be related to vertical writing mode
07:24:58 [Liam-jp]
r12a: how is that an i18n issue?
07:25:13 [Liam-jp]
Koji: we have an issue in epub WG to centre text but in vertical flow, and we think this is international issue because ...
07:25:23 [Liam-jp]
many Japanese are discussing why this only appears in Japan.
07:25:39 [Liam-jp]
Usually you want to put things above centre, which makes good balance
07:26:01 [Liam-jp]
from design perspective makes more sense to centre in page
07:26:15 [Liam-jp]
CSS doesn't provide good way to centre in vertical dimension
07:26:41 [Liam-jp]
glazou: is that related to ruby and page/line/column break, when the ruby box is supposed to be broken into pieces? and it's no longer readable?
07:26:57 [Liam-jp]
when the lubeys are processed in relation ot the pagiantion
07:27:07 [Liam-jp]
for example the ruby characters are on one page and the next have main text
07:27:13 [Liam-jp]
and this can happen in pagination
07:27:22 [Liam-jp]
s/when/[unknown speaker]/
07:27:37 [fantasai]
That sounds like a bug
07:27:38 [Liam-jp]
glazou: this relates to Japanese but also to CSS and breaking.
07:28:17 [Liam-jp]
r12a: I think it relates to nakiwakare, the really long stuff we saw wrapping.
07:28:53 [Liam-jp]
Alan: there was an issue from Bert about rich formatting in CSS generated content
07:29:02 [Liam-jp]
[e.g. maths or ruby in running headers]
07:29:17 [Liam-jp]
r12a: similar to the metadata problem right?
07:29:44 [Liam-jp]
Bert: generated content is often derived from the document but reassembled by the stylesheet.
07:29:52 [Liam-jp]
glazou: it can be in an attribute
07:30:30 [Liam-jp]
Liam: an example would be ruby in a running hader.
07:30:35 [Liam-jp]
07:31:12 [Liam-jp]
ddavis: requirement of fonts that are different, e.g. you have a form where you type in your name, you might need a font that's not embedded or in the device.
07:31:27 [Liam-jp]
Norbert: there was a proposal for a JS API for fonts [to add glyphs on the fly]
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07:31:52 [Liam-jp]
Takami: annotations for sample preview conetnt
07:32:18 [Liam-jp]
In Japan some contents are maybe has some important element like illustrations or TOC,
07:32:35 [Liam-jp]
so how to make sample preview files is important for internationalization of ebooks i think.
07:33:40 [Liam-jp]
[people discuss Japanese name of frontispiece illustration]
07:34:09 [Liam-jp]
Alan: when we discussed translating manga caption it was mentioned it was hard to fit the translation in a balloon
07:34:15 [Liam-jp]
so some sort of content-fitting for translations.
07:34:28 [kaz]
[ Kuchi-e (direct translation is mouth figure) ]
07:34:51 [Liam-jp]
glazou: if you have a vertical bubble in a Japanese manga it might be completely unsuited to Western text.
07:35:08 [kaz]
07:35:35 [Liam-jp]
r12a: how do you translate the manga sound effects? [[ *BAM* *ZZZ* *THWAP*?! ]]
07:35:38 [kaz]
07:35:58 [Liam-jp]
07:36:26 [Liam-jp]
r12a: I'm going to write "sound effects" and not "onomatopoeia"!
07:37:05 [Liam-jp]
Ivan: Japanese community has produced a very strong example with the document they produced on [layout]. It affected CSS. We have others happening now.
07:37:11 [plh]
"Cocorico" in french, "cock-a-doodle-doo" in english, how does it translate in Japanese?
07:37:31 [Liam-jp]
One q. is whether these docs were centered on the Web or did they look at requirements of [printed] books?
07:37:53 [glazou]
plh, thanks for using the poultry example and not the duck one ;-)
07:37:56 [Liam-jp]
The other question is what can we, and the book industry, do to extend that to other countries, for Arabig, Hebrew Mongolian, Russian
07:38:17 [Liam-jp]
e.g. typesetting of mathematics in Arabic
07:39:07 [Liam-jp]
r12a: first question - the JLREQ doc went beyond a Web page to page layout,
07:39:15 [Liam-jp]
but was not only only focused on print documents.
07:39:19 [bert_]
07:39:20 [Liam-jp]
Plans are the same for Korean.
07:39:26 [Liam-jp]
Indic, unclear yet.
07:40:07 [Liam-jp]
Japanese has particular requirements, the page layout is very Japanese for page layout. We didn't deal with mathematics.
07:40:28 [Liam-jp]
Ivan: what can we do to get Arabic, [and Russian] mathematical layout?
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07:41:00 [Liam-jp]
Ivan: is vertical text important?
07:41:13 [Liam-jp]
Murata: quite a few people think it's crucial.
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07:41:29 [Liam-jp]
r12a: what haven't we yet solved?
07:41:46 [Liam-jp]
someone: I think we already discussed congo?
07:42:01 [Liam-jp]
07:42:47 [Liam-jp]
koboyashi: there's also horizontal, not only vertical.
07:43:18 [Liam-jp]
r12a: [asks about priority of writing modes
07:43:25 [bert_]
-> The Math WG wrote a W3C Note about math and bidi
07:43:50 [Liam-jp]
takase: one comment from publisher in Japan: we will not deliver content in ebooks if it cannot handle vertical layout.
07:44:01 [Liam-jp]
joe: kobo considers it a must-have.
07:44:10 [Liam-jp]
r12a: I am going to include that it is important.
07:44:37 [Norbert]
07:44:51 [Liam-jp]
bobby: traditional chinese requires also vertical layout intermixed with Latin words.
07:45:04 [Liam-jp]
extension is for white space before/after Latin words.
07:45:37 [Liam-jp]
fantasi: a large part has been waiting for TR50
07:46:13 [Liam-jp]
[Ellika/Fantasai interoduces herself]
07:46:28 [Liam-jp]
also a few related issues open on writing modes
07:46:33 [stearns]
07:46:37 [Norbert]
07:46:38 [Liam-jp]
as far as autospace, we defer to CSS text level 4
07:46:39 [glazou]
07:47:08 [Liam-jp]
r12a: is it important that text 4 is delayed?
07:47:12 [Liam-jp]
Bobby: I think it's OK
07:47:21 [Koji]
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07:47:25 [Liam-jp]
it could be late.
07:47:43 [Liam-jp]
Koji: I'm not sure what the IG will handle and what CSS WG will handle...
07:48:07 [Liam-jp]
Customizeable glyph orientation, so tha tpulishers can define which glyph appear in which orientation for a particular book
07:48:14 [kaz]
07:48:25 [Liam-jp]
instead of using css transforms to rotate individual characters
07:48:39 [Liam-jp]
The other issue is that author wants to customise line-breaking
07:48:52 [Liam-jp]
that's also in the queue for future css text.
07:48:58 [Liam-jp]
[kinsoku rules]
07:49:27 [Liam-jp]
glazou: someone came to me about the way we select the language in CSS, it's based on elements, no media queries for that.
07:49:37 [Liam-jp]
So they'd like to have language-based media queries.
07:50:08 [Liam-jp]
fantasai: I think that's related to people wanting to relate selectors together.
07:50:37 [Liam-jp]
Bert: Ivan talked about these IGs or task forces, might refer to official governement docments
07:50:48 [Liam-jp]
Can the IG help us get copies of official rules
07:50:56 [Liam-jp]
like [JIS 4051]
07:51:25 [Liam-jp]
glazou: in France you have a spec for government documents; some old-fashioned books use it, but modern books use only part of it.
07:51:30 [Liam-jp]
So it's important but not enough.
07:51:42 [Liam-jp]
Bert: Yes, we need the doc and its status.
07:51:55 [shie]
-> [16:43] s/takase:/takami:/
07:52:04 [Liam-jp]
komoto: ministry of affairs in Japan... vertical text layout:
07:52:27 [ddavis]
07:52:27 [Liam-jp]
Maybe you had the impression that vertical layout is not a priority issue in Japan.
07:52:27 [Koji]
07:52:28 [kaz]
07:52:34 [Liam-jp]
Many Japanese only write in horizontal layout
07:52:42 [kaz]
07:52:57 [Liam-jp]
Number of people writing vertically is decreasing, but many printed materials in vertical mode exist.
07:53:21 [bert_]
07:53:22 [Liam-jp]
We usually talk to industry members and they are struggling about the vertical layout spec!
07:53:38 [Liam-jp]
Also, there is a survey that the majority of jp Internet users are in favour of vertical layout.
07:53:53 [Liam-jp]
So, we strongly suggest that the vertical layout is a priority issue in IG discussion.
07:54:02 [Liam-jp]
This is why the government is involved, and why my colelague andI are here.
07:54:06 [Liam-jp]
s/andI/and I/
07:54:15 [Liam-jp]
r12a: thank you.
07:54:45 [Liam-jp]
r12a: I'm hoping we can prioritize these next week.
07:54:51 [Liam-jp]
What about ruby, is that important?
07:55:34 [Liam-jp]
ruby and bopomofo ruby
07:56:07 [Liam-jp]
bobby: I don't have an answer about ruby in Japan, I have asked publishers.
07:56:16 [Liam-jp]
07:57:30 [Liam-jp]
fantasai: one issue I'd like to distinguish is ruby as positioned in Taiwanese documents and zhuyin fuhao when used in vertical text, positioning issues, tone mark placement needs to be correct ...
07:57:36 [Liam-jp]
it's a text layout issue, not a ruby issue.
07:58:31 [Liam-jp]
[zhuyin fuhao is the Chinese name for bopomofo]
07:58:34 [fantasai]
it applies equally to vertical text, not just to ruby text
07:58:43 [Liam-jp]
person: one comment about ruby.
07:58:58 [Liam-jp]
A Japanese newspaper publisher is using their news articles online, with ruby.
07:59:04 [Liam-jp]
It's not vertical layout.
07:59:14 [Liam-jp]
In Japan not only books or ebooks but also online articles.
07:59:52 [Liam-jp]
Koji: I heard from publishers who want different styles in horizontal vs vertical
07:59:59 [Liam-jp]
e.g. using Japanese digits in vertical flow
08:00:04 [Liam-jp]
and arabic in horizontal
08:00:08 [Liam-jp]
and wantign it to be automated.
08:00:24 [Liam-jp]
08:00:36 [Liam-jp]
Koboyashi: similar to date and times
08:01:18 [Liam-jp]
kaz: I brought some Manga, Japanese and Chines from Taiwan, and here are some digits. ...
08:01:31 [Liam-jp]
[shows how they are different]
08:01:55 [Liam-jp]
Chinese uses Arabic digits 90 degrees rotated clockwise, not Japanese digits.
08:01:59 [shie]
from [16:58] comment is Takami, sorry.
08:02:10 [karl]
example of Web service adding Ruby for everything in the text.
08:02:10 [karl]
08:02:41 [Liam-jp]
Bert: my lawyer friends always say we need footnotes; other people in specific disciplines have requirements, I'd like to hear about those too.
08:02:49 [karl]
compare the layout in between webkit and firefox
08:05:10 [Liam-jp]
r12a: I'll try and put this list into a survey form, will send you all a link to it, and ask you which are urgent, moderately or not urgent, and then we will summarise the results.
08:05:47 [Liam-jp]
Ivan: I hope this is not the last time we discuss these things
08:05:55 [Liam-jp]
I'd like to see at least some of you join the Interest Group.
08:06:55 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:06:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
08:07:03 [Liam-jp]
r12a: thank you to our sponsors, to the logistics people, to the interpreters.
08:07:25 [Liam-jp]
There's another Workshop in Paris in September - process flow and books
08:07:44 [Liam-jp]
[technical session adjourned]
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12:07:13 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:07:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate r12a
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