23:47:00 RRSAgent has joined #ebooki18n 23:47:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-irc 23:47:15 Zakim has joined #ebooki18n 23:47:47 kyoji has joined #ebooki18n 23:48:33 Meeting: W3C ebook Workshop - Tokyo, Japan - June 4, 2013 23:49:25 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/06/ebooks/program.php 23:50:00 stearns_ has joined #ebooki18n 23:50:20 Liam-jp has joined #ebooki18n 23:54:13 K_Yamamoto has joined #ebooki18n 00:00:04 kotakagi has joined #ebooki18n 00:00:15 glazou has joined #ebooki18n 00:01:26 bobbytung has joined #ebooki18n 00:02:06 scribe: ivan 00:02:22 scribenick: ivan 00:02:29 rrsagent, set log public 00:03:09 masao: I am working for w3c keio, site manager 00:03:42 … very glad to see everybody here 00:03:42 … lots of people for Japan, European, Americans... 00:03:54 … Japan as a special spec specification for vertical writing 00:04:04 … many countries have many requirements 00:04:10 … i18n is very important for us 00:04:18 … a good opportonity for meet us all 00:04:28 … thank you! 00:04:50 (introducing the two co-chairs) 00:04:59 kaz has joined #ebooki18n 00:05:22 plh has joined #ebooki18n 00:05:28 karen_ has joined #ebooki18n 00:05:53 Scribe: Ivan 00:09:14 mgylling has joined #ebooki18n 00:10:27 ddavis has joined #ebooki18n 00:10:44 Richard: you can queue up questions by adding "q+" in this irc channel 00:10:52 plinss has joined #ebooki18n 00:11:00 Koji has joined #ebooki18n 00:11:42 hayato has joined #ebooki18n 00:12:07 tmichel has joined #ebooki18n 00:12:44 sam has joined #ebooki18n 00:12:46 Bert has joined #ebooki18n 00:12:54 murakami_ has joined #ebooki18n 00:13:26 bert_ has joined #ebooki18n 00:14:26 Markus Gylling: IDPF and W3C relationships 00:15:02 mgylling: I am CTO of IDPF, the organization that does the epub standard, current version 3 00:15:07 Sharad has joined #ebooki18n 00:15:16 … have a background in accessibility, working also for the Daisy consortium 00:15:44 … as you know, this is one out of 3 workshops 00:15:56 … a lead-in to a digital pubishing ig, that will kick of early autumn 00:16:01 … it is a historic event 00:16:06 … for us it is 00:16:23 … w3c has not really engaged in vertical industries 00:16:32 … web and tv is an example for a change 00:16:50 … asking how the open platform works for them 00:17:05 … I would really ike to encourage all of you who are part of this industry to join the ig 00:17:23 … it is really on the alignment of the opw and the digital publishing 00:17:25 s/really ike/really like/ 00:17:36 … for example breaching the gap between online and offline publishing 00:17:58 URL to Digital Publishing Interest Group Charter: http://www.w3.org/2013/02/digpub-charter-history/diff-digpub-6-7.html 00:18:04 r12a has joined #ebooki18n 00:18:11 … or the publ industry metadata (like onyx or marc) : to have ways to add those to the owp 00:18:39 … the topic of adaption, personalization: spending 2-300 hours with a textbook, to be able to adapt that is not only an extra feature, it is a requirement 00:18:45 … and of course accessibility 00:19:02 … we also have the layout features in publishing which is not exactly the same as we 00:19:19 … eg pagination and css have to be better in that, but there are other examples 00:19:37 … we have, potentially, api alignments, eg for social reading, annotation, discovery of content 00:19:47 … like for education 00:19:53 … those were just examples 00:20:09 will this group define a stabndard for metadata also? 00:20:23 … looking back of the idpf and ig: accessibility and i18n 00:20:34 … for idpf these are non negotiable 00:20:48 … reuse whatver there is to do what they need 00:21:03 … we have an idpf wild card to solve those solution 00:21:13 MURATA has joined #ebooki18n 00:21:13 … idpf has therefore a css profile for idpf 00:21:28 …. we did this at a time when the the webkit prefixes spread around 00:21:43 … we are aware of th eproblems when you do such a thing 00:22:17 … however, we do not regret this; these were in a large a part those that enables the ebook industry to move away from the propr. format 00:22:26 Sharad: the draft charter mentions metadata: http://www.w3.org/2013/02/digpubig.html 00:22:28 "q+ will this group also define a standard for metadata ?" 00:22:30 … that said, we are not done 00:22:43 … there are things that has to be done 00:22:52 … eg, ruby and ??? layout 00:23:08 … our hopes that we do not have to use epub prefixes again 00:23:26 "q+ how about security for e-books. will this group deine security also?" 00:23:29 tlk has joined #ebooki18n 00:23:43 … but that we can more effetively get to what we need 00:23:47 … I hope that you will help us identify a set of core issues 00:23:51 … thank you very much 00:23:52 thank you Carl 00:24:07 kurui has joined #ebooki18n 00:24:08 q+ how about security for e-books. will this group deine security also 00:24:25 q? 00:25:08 q+ to ask will this group define a standard for metadata also? 00:25:24 q+ to ask how about security for e-books. will this group deine security also (for Sharad) 00:26:05 Markus: there is enough metadata, no need for a new one 00:26:14 ack karl 00:26:14 karl, you wanted to ask will this group define a standard for metadata also? and to ask how about security for e-books. will this group deine security also (for Sharad) 00:26:18 … the problem is on how to use them, and some of them are too poor 00:26:33 … i hope we may develop good guidellines how to use 00:26:54 … we know that security and drm is required for this industry 00:27:02 … but we do not want the ig to be bogged down 00:27:22 … it is not decided yet, but it will not be given the first point on the agenda 00:27:33 … but an ig is an ig, the members also set the agenda 00:27:47 … depending on what the members want to do 00:27:54 q? 00:27:56 Richard Ishida: I18N & W3C 00:28:49 r12n: i18n activity at tha w3c is composed from a number of groups 00:29:14 … i18n wg, mlw-lt group, an interest group a number of task forces 00:29:27 … we review specifications giving advice 00:29:38 … we seek out requirements for owp 00:29:45 … liaise to other communities 00:30:00 takase has joined #ebooki18n 00:30:01 … we help people to use the i18n features for owp 00:30:19 … we have a home page www.w3.org/International/ 00:30:20 kurui has joined #ebooki18n 00:31:09 r12n: some issues for today, not exhaustive 00:31:45 … html5: text direction, in particular arabic & co, where text flows in different directions, ruby, language declaration 00:31:51 … all these are markup 00:32:00 … time and date, charcter declarations 00:32:10 yukinori_y has joined #ebooki18n 00:32:10 … a lot of i18n stuff happens in css 00:32:19 … that is where the styling and typographic work is donw 00:32:53 … eg, css-text text transform, full width characters for example, or white space processing 00:33:00 tlk_ has joined #ebooki18n 00:33:00 … people did not care so far 00:33:14 s/ruby and ??? layout/bopomofo ruby and tobira layout/ 00:33:43 … in chinese or thai if you add
that are not good 00:33:43 … line breaking and word boundaries 00:33:47 … breaking within words 00:34:06 … alignments and justification, different scripts do it differently 00:34:18 … word and letter separation 00:34:38 … first line indentation and hanging in different scripts 00:34:50 … in indic the firs syllable has to be used 00:35:10 … css text decoration spec looks an underline and strike through, etc 00:35:15 … emphais mark 00:35:21 … text shadow 00:35:35 yasuki has joined #ebooki18n 00:35:37 … css writing mode: direction and bidirection text 00:35:48 … you also have vertical and variant in other languages 00:35:56 … sometimes mixed directions 00:36:04 … base line alignments 00:36:17 s/emphais mark/emphasis mark/ 00:36:34 … css3 ruby: how do you align the ruby according to your preference 00:36:52 … bopmofo ruby: has a vertical ruby with tone marks 00:37:04 … css font: font properties, vary according tot he scripts 00:37:12 … woff fonts 00:37:23 … fonts features properties 00:37:32 … those were just a few things 00:37:41 … then we have some of the things we have been doing 00:37:52 shige_ has joined #ebooki18n 00:37:53 … additional requirements for bidi in html and css 00:38:50 …… bidi isolation, we have provied some requirements, those have been put into the html5 spec 00:38:59 … form submission improvements 00:39:16 … requirement for japanese text layout: we produced a separate document 00:39:36 … with different aspects of typography in japan and how those are requirements 00:39:46 … b.t.w., that was produced by a task force in japan 00:40:04 … we have been doing work on ruby: use cases and exploratory approaches for ruby 00:40:18 … that will produce a requirement to the html5 group 00:40:35 … another is a first draft for hangul text layout and typography 00:40:45 … on the same a model as the japanese but for korean 00:41:01 … we put together a task force for indic layout, we are just starting it up 00:41:22 … has published a first draft document 00:41:48 … that will be run by people in INdia 00:42:05 … putting a document together for counter styles for numbered lists 00:42:23 … we plan to make this available as a note 00:42:41 … the question is whether we would need a community group to maintain that list 00:43:00 … multilingual linked open data group has been set up 00:43:47 … This is your Web, this is not W3C's web! 00:44:09 … if you believe that w3c will just do is produce things to what you need, that is a mistake, we do it together 00:44:33 … w3c brings people together, in all those success stories we bring people together 00:44:43 … get involved! 00:45:06 … the web is about people an not about technologies 00:46:23 Bert Bos: Can you typeset a book with CSS? 00:47:33 Bert: assuming you want to make a book, you have xml or html, and you want to make a book with css, is it possible 00:47:50 … I did it:-) I could do it 00:48:03 … if you stick to waht is standard: then the answer is no 00:48:26 … css was meant to be simple 00:48:36 … easy to use for web pages (mostly) 00:48:54 … we expected somethign else for the complex stuff, which became xslt and xsl-fo 00:48:58 [Bert's slides: http://www.w3.org/Talks/2013/0604-CSS-Tokyo/ ] 00:49:15 … learning how to do all that would make time, so we decided to do the easy thing 00:49:20 … but time has changed 00:50:21 … we simplified the design, we assumed the layout was based on the document structure 00:50:29 … plus some few extension for first line, etc, 00:50:46 … but if you do magazines, we need more, we need to look at the regions on the page 00:51:02 … a number of requirements: 00:51:37 … running headers: 00:52:24 … we have simple positioning, page numebers, fixed text in them, proposal to copy text into the runing headers, special elements in the documents, ideas on how to position them on other places 00:52:48 (example on mathamatics) 00:53:23 s/mathamatics/mathematics 00:53:51 … a bunch of other topics, like footnotes, continued on, shapes, grid, ... 00:53:56 (grid example) 00:54:57 … copyfitting: ensure a book has neither too many nor too few pages 00:55:25 … for css: fitting on a smaller scale 00:55:43 .. eg by changing the font bigger or smaller 00:56:53 … styling a blank page, page size, printing marks, ... 00:57:10 … page size is important when you print, 00:57:30 … change bars are interesting, they do not follow the element structure 00:57:48 … for an ebook reader an annotation are important and their styling 00:58:19 … speech, lexicon and pronounciation is missing from there 00:58:24 … there is no standard for that 00:58:38 … vertical text: we have been working on that for a long time 00:58:58 … we found that the first attempt did not satisfy all cases 00:59:10 … we let it rest, did a 2nd attempt a few years later 00:59:16 Norbert has joined #ebooki18n 00:59:20 … but it was not enough 00:59:33 … now we are making the 3rd attempt, used in the epub3 spec 00:59:34 Re standards for pronunciation, EPUB 3 references PLS as defined at http://www.w3.org/TR/pronunciation-lexicon/ 00:59:42 … hoepfully we will get it right this time 00:59:57 … the japanese layout requirement helped a lot 01:00:06 …. this is a very large subject 01:00:30 … like rotating non ideographic letter or putting multiple narrow character together 01:01:00 … effect of vertical text many other modules, like alignments, floating 01:01:16 … we need aligntment to the top and bottom, or table caption side 01:01:35 … and other properties in a number of other modules 01:02:14 … alphabetic index: 01:02:46 … the question is whether we want to do it in css; we may have to do in formatting phase 01:03:14 … that may lead, eg, multiplication of the page numbers 01:03:43 … you may want to have formatting phase for this 01:03:45 … or make/collapse ranges 01:04:05 … we need to find out what is needed for that, looking at xsl, for example 01:04:13 … afaik nobody tried that yet 01:04:30 … mathml layout needs some css 01:04:38 … the math wg created a profile 01:04:40 kawada has joined #ebooki18n 01:04:42 … we want to do more 01:04:57 … as least as nice as TeX can do it 01:05:10 q? 01:05:24 … conclusion: people want to use css, they have to rely extensions because the standard are not ready 01:05:50 … but this year looks like a good one, this workshop, the japanese (and later indic) IG helps a lot 01:07:37 Liam: ruby in running headers? 01:07:56 AndChat474201 has joined #ebooki18n 01:07:56 Richard: tahnk you to all the speakers in the first sessioin 01:08:09 ...we now take a break and will meet back here to start next session at 10:30am 01:08:10 s/tahnk/thank/ 01:08:21 ...Also, lunch will be here; food will be brought into this room at lunch time 01:08:32 scribe: karen 01:08:38 scribenick: karen_ 01:11:02 MikeSmith has joined #ebooki18n 01:11:25 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:11:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/03-ebooki18n-minutes.html MikeSmith 01:28:02 bobbytung has joined #ebooki18n 01:30:01 Topic: Session 1; Speakers: Makoto Murata, Koji Ishii, Shinya Takami 01:30:18 glazou has joined #ebooki18n 01:30:46 kyoji has joined #ebooki18n 01:31:14 Norbert has joined #ebooki18n 01:31:17 First Speaker, Session 1: Murata Makoto, co-chair IDPF Advanced/Hybrid Layouts WG, i18N sub-group lead of the IDPF EPUB WG 01:31:46 Scribe: Karen Myers 01:32:06 Richard: Welcome back to the next session 01:32:34 Koji has joined #ebooki18n 01:32:38 ...after presentations this morning we will have a brief discussion 01:33:06 Makoto-san: Let me explain who I am [reviews slide one roles] 01:33:27 ...advanced/hybrid layouts is largely about comics and magazines 01:33:58 ...I was an original member of XML WG 01:34:09 ...Today I'm not going to talk about detaills because I'm not an expert 01:34:10 interested doc for the current talk https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WQ2lX-zVfJKFVimb7AZauDwJnqSzlv_0rbBq1jA8HFA 01:34:15 ...don't know a lot about typography 01:34:17 s/interested/interesting 01:34:31 ...but rather point out differences or simillarities in these two wholds 01:34:37 ...Web and eBook worlds 01:34:48 ...this is my understanding of the World Wide Web 01:34:50 AndChat|474201 has joined #ebooki18n 01:35:00 [slide with spider web and magician on top] 01:35:08 ...this is Tim Berners-Lee [laughs] 01:35:17 ...Web has not been used to publish books and magazinees 01:35:27 ...only recently we see eBooks, especially in US 01:35:28 AndChat-474201 has joined #ebooki18n 01:35:37 ...will become more popular in Europe and and Asia over next few years 01:35:43 ...Things have changed a lot in Japan recently 01:35:51 ...some synergy between two worlds 01:35:58 ...eBooks are based on web technologies 01:36:03 ...HTML, JPeg, etc. 01:36:14 ...today's ebook tech based on web tech 01:36:20 ...Today we are seeing a lot more self publishing 01:36:31 ...blog first, then create ebooks from that content 01:36:33 ikeda has joined #ebooki18n 01:36:40 ...users don't see differences between the two worlds 01:36:45 ...for them the world is one world 01:36:54 ...historically there are some important differences 01:37:12 ...in IDPF world, EPUB are distributable packes of web contents 01:37:20 ...IETF and W3C, what do they do 01:37:34 ...MHTML is mainly for email, believe it's widely used by email readers 01:37:41 ...and w3C provides widget packaging 01:37:56 ...I was in a working group on this but nothing was published 01:38:03 ...three different technologies for packaging 01:38:06 AndChat-474201 has joined #ebooki18n 01:38:06 3 technologies for packaging 01:38:06 ...Some key players 01:38:19 ....In W3C, browser vendors are key players 01:38:21 ...and the IT guys 01:38:37 shige has joined #ebooki18n 01:38:40 ...For IDPF, Google, Apple, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, Sony and the traditional publishers are the key players 01:38:45 ..So differences and priorities 01:38:59 ...IDPF: longevity of publications is very important 01:39:07 ...if book does not display, you would sue publisher 01:39:23 ...publisher today can freely update their web page 01:39:36 ...traiditonal typography also important; publishers and users say so 01:39:56 ...vertical writing is a key factor that IDPF has considered, and also ruby 01:40:13 ...at IDPF, Javascript is not well liked 01:40:22 ...longevity is the issue; becomes dangerous 01:40:36 ...that is why IDPF EPUB3 does not recommend the use of Javascript 01:40:47 ...and in W3C web-based application programs are considered important 01:40:51 ...these are other differences 01:40:58 ...How should we go forward? 01:41:16 ...Are these differences really important, going to exist forever, or just because there are traditions from publishers? 01:41:25 ...I don't have an answer 01:41:32 ...For example, how important is vertical writing? 01:41:42 ...Some Japanese writers say yes, others say no 01:41:51 ...extreme positions within Japan 01:41:59 kawabata has joined #ebooki18n 01:42:03 ...generation or individual differences; I don't have an answer 01:42:10 ...but I believe certainly that the world is converging 01:42:30 ...ebook and web world won't continue forever; young writers and new users don't care 01:42:44 ...We need better exchanges between IDPF and W3C working groups 01:42:53 ...historically there have been interactions with the CSS WG 01:43:06 ...Advanced Hybrid Layuts WG and the SVG WG of W3C 01:43:14 AndChat474201 has joined #ebooki18n 01:43:17 ...I am co-chair of this WG; about comics and magazines 01:43:23 AndChat474201 has joined #ebooki18n 01:43:30 ...within EPUB container, it can take three renditions 01:43:42 ...you can change font size; don't know number of pages in advanced 01:43:50 ...second is for fixed layout and tablets 01:43:53 ...this is image based 01:44:04 ...which might contain @ text or comics 01:44:15 ...Third one is another fixed layout rendition, smaller screen size for mobile 01:44:27 ...incorporate one rendition in single diff file 01:44:30 ..which one to choose 01:44:44 ...Automatically or interactively choose one rendition? 01:44:58 takase has joined #ebooki18n 01:45:00 ...for example, based on natural language, screen size or resolution or fixed layout 01:45:07 ...similar to content negotiation for HTTP 01:45:14 ...An interesting possibility for using this 01:45:15 K_Yamamoto has joined #ebooki18n 01:45:21 ...is to capture sophisticated layout 01:45:30 ...Bert mentioned CSS for advanced layout 01:45:37 ...looking forward to more progress in that area 01:45:45 ...another possibility is to use images 01:45:48 ...scanned or PDF docs 01:45:51 ...one rendition 01:46:11 ...and have another reflowable rendition with simple HTML and CSS style sheets 01:46:24 ...this combination allows sophisticated layout 01:46:28 ...but no accessibility 01:46:35 ...this is not @ 01:46:38 ...no text to speech 01:46:43 ...only for sophisticated layout 01:47:03 ...we have a reflowable rendition and we know which region corresponds to which section in the HTML document 01:47:06 ...this is the point 01:47:12 ...allows you to switch back and forth 01:47:19 ...what i18N WG is doing right now 01:47:27 ...we plan to put multi-directional links 01:47:38 ...detached documents 01:47:50 ...it contains multi-directional links detached from XHTML or images 01:48:02 ...Last one is intra-rendition navigation 01:48:18 ...this is about mobile phones or tablets where screen size is not big enough 01:48:29 ...you may want to focus on one panel or page on screen 01:48:33 s/i18N WG/ADH WG/ 01:48:36 ...this navigation is based on regions 01:48:42 ...another possibility 01:48:46 ...is magazines 01:48:58 ...might contain table of contents 01:49:02 ...image areas for text 01:49:12 ...How do we capture regions? 01:49:16 ...We have two possibilities 01:49:24 ...one is to use media fragments from W3C 01:49:30 ...other is to use SVG elements 01:49:34 ...some other issues 01:49:40 ...non-rectangular? 01:49:57 ...Yesterday Markus, myself and two other guys attended the SVG F2F WG 01:50:01 ...and we had a nice discussion 01:50:21 ...and mentioned the idea of delinking non-rectangular views from spec 01:50:34 ...they will send us a liaison statement and provide answers to our question 01:50:42 ...This is a very good start of our joint work 01:50:48 ...between SVG and AHL WG 01:50:50 ...end of my talk 01:51:24 Speaker: Koji Ishii 01:52:10 Kaz: I have a question about hybrid layout 01:52:17 ...I brought this digital TV Guide 01:52:38 ...content is Japanese text explaining this drama 01:52:50 ...second part is completely text 01:52:57 ...some of pages have this kind of big pictures 01:53:02 ...some have manga 01:53:16 ...wondering if it is possible for ebooks to implement this kind of layout? 01:53:28 ...Murato-san, do you have an opinion for this layout for magazines? 01:53:38 Richard: we will discuss this during the discussion session 01:53:55 Ishii-san: I am from Rakuten, Kobo division 01:54:12 ...I would like to talk about specs 01:54:12 ...talked last week on issues list with publishers 01:54:23 ...found some implementation issues to take to CSS WG 01:54:28 ...found some issues hard to solve 01:54:33 shige has joined #ebooki18n 01:54:40 ...I changed my topic to talk about these things 01:54:46 ...Why EPUB Interoperability is hard 01:54:56 ...before talking about those issues 01:55:02 ...here is the EPUB reading system architecture 01:55:10 ...Most has three components 01:55:15 ...Webkit, paging engine 01:55:19 ...renders on Webkit 01:55:25 ...it is not required in EPUB spec 01:55:30 ...changing font size, colors 01:55:39 ...Today W3C defines UA behavior 01:55:47 ...and IDPF defines EPUB files format 01:56:00 ...but neither defines paging behavior or when user changes font 01:56:06 ...I know there are discussions in IDPF 01:56:13