16:56:33 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:56:33 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/30-ua-irc 16:56:35 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:56:35 Zakim has joined #ua 16:56:37 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:56:37 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 16:56:38 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:56:38 Date: 30 May 2013 16:56:51 rrsagent, set logs public 16:57:05 chair: JimAllan KellyFord 16:59:20 Agenda+ mobile examples 16:59:28 jeanne has joined #ua 16:59:35 Agenda+ crowd source Priority Sheet implementation list 16:59:48 Agenda+ bug report from A11y Task force https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13624, feed back needed 16:59:51 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:59:56 Agenda+ Definition of browser - see "User Agent definition" thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0056.html 16:59:58 +Jeanne 17:00:02 kford has joined #ua 17:00:15 agenda? 17:00:18 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:00:22 +Jim_Allan 17:00:33 agenda+ Testing sub-group/writing tests 17:00:45 Agenda+ Level A Existing Implementations - add them to spreadsheet - PLEASE. 17:01:05 regrets: Simon 17:01:56 Greg has joined #ua 17:02:13 +[Microsoft] 17:02:34 Jan has joined #ua 17:02:38 zakim, microsoft is kford 17:02:38 +kford; got it 17:02:44 zakim, code? 17:02:44 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 17:03:22 Eric has joined #ua 17:03:34 +[IPcaller] 17:03:47 +Kim_Patch 17:03:51 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 17:03:51 +Jan; got it 17:04:19 + +1.609.734.aaaa 17:04:30 zakim, aaaa is really Eric 17:04:30 +Eric; got it 17:04:44 zakim, who is here 17:04:44 allanj, you need to end that query with '?' 17:04:49 zakim, who is here? 17:04:49 On the phone I see Jeanne, Jim_Allan, kford, Jan, Kim_Patch, Eric 17:04:50 On IRC I see Eric, Jan, Greg, KimPatch, kford, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, allanj, trackbot 17:05:35 zakim, agenda? 17:05:35 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 17:05:36 1. mobile examples [from allanj] 17:05:36 2. crowd source Priority Sheet implementation list [from allanj] 17:05:36 3. bug report from A11y Task force https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13624, feed back needed [from allanj] 17:05:36 4. Definition of browser - see "User Agent definition" thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0056.html [from allanj] 17:05:37 5. Testing sub-group/writing tests [from allanj] 17:05:37 6. Level A Existing Implementations - add them to spreadsheet - PLEASE. [from allanj] 17:06:07 +Greg_Lowney 17:08:05 scribe: KimPatch 17:08:31 open item 1 17:10:47 Jeanne: showing mobile accessibility examples in UAAG – how would apply to mobile devices. Judy wanted something she could show. Original idea was pull them out to put them in a separate document. 17:11:03 Jeanne: we published last week 17:12:24 Jeanne: Brussels conference, want to start requiring mobile UAAG requirements. People really want specific mobile guidelines. Separate document is a problem because people are going to start thinking this is all there is to UAAG. So now it will just be a view of UAAG: show me mobile, media player etc. 17:13:11 Jeanne: working on that. The good news is we have a lot of interest in UAAG right now. We can't give them what they want in terms of specific mobile guidelines. But I think our visibility is improving, particularly around this area. 17:14:11 Jeanne: XSL transfer skills needed. I'm probably going to be publishing again on Tuesday. At the moment the plan is to publish with the re-coding I'm doing now. 17:16:34 -Jeanne 17:16:55 +Jeanne 17:17:23 Kelly: attention is nice, it would be nice at the same time if they could help – throw bodies at it 17:17:46 Jeanne: we do have people asking if they can help. We were talking about crowdsourcing 17:17:47 close item 1 17:17:55 zakim, open item 2 17:17:55 agendum 2. "crowd source Priority Sheet implementation list" taken up [from allanj] 17:19:14 Jeanne: we have one person who was really really persistent and wanted to help with UAAG, I asked him to look at the mobile examples, he did. We have four other people right now would like to help and we could give them something to do. Kim and I were talking about whether we could get people to start working on the implementation list, and how can we break up that work into manageable... 17:19:16 ...chunks reasonably securely and starts crowdsourcing getting people to contribute implementation for interesting features 17:20:03 kp: key to ask folks for a small favor. doing a shared document, here is what we need...be very directed 17:20:53 Jeanne: there are about 30 new iPhone browsers. 17:21:10 Jeanne: so we are much more relevant and we do need help looking at all these browsers 17:21:47 Jeanne: do we have ideas or ways we could do things. Spreadsheet is clumsy. Looking at programming skills of people on the call, what could we do 17:22:58 have a much simpler/smaller spreadsheet to use very specific to finding implementations 17:22:59 Greg: spreadsheet is clumsy, but the alternative would be to have some shared non-spreadsheet documents that we could programmatically convert to a spreadsheet to manipulate because eventually we are going to want to have a spreadsheet to manipulate it. I guess it wouldn't be that hard to take a document – exported from whatever shared authoring platform we are using, and convert it. 17:23:15 Jeanne: we could do it on a wiki 17:24:02 kp: simple spreadsheet. wikis are problematic. 17:24:34 kp: use forms? 17:25:00 Greg: advantage to keeping it in a spreadsheet is sorting it in different ways 17:27:10 kp: google forms, are very easy and fast 17:27:16 Greg: it would be important in whatever we do to have separation between imagine a spreadsheet for each browser and a row for every SC. Two columns, one standard and then free-form comments.so what 17:28:23 Jim: I have a survey tool 17:28:24 That is, one column with a standardized code with answer (e.g. "Pass", "Fail", "Partial", "NA-Platform", etc.), and the other with free-form comment/description. 17:28:40 Jeanne: we can use the WC3 survey 17:29:41 Jim: can we make it public 17:29:42 Jeanne: yes 17:30:25 Jeanne: one thing we have to watch out for, atag example misunderstood guidelines and failed 17:31:09 Jim: we have to verify answers 17:31:11 Jeanne: we have to do the testing anyway, but this is a nice lead-in to say my browser does this, my browser does this 17:31:28 Jim: subgroup to put one of these together? 17:33:04 Greg and Kim can help 17:33:11 action: Jeanne to schedule a meeting for a subgroup to work on crowdsourcing project. 17:33:11 Created ACTION-832 - Schedule a meeting for a subgroup to work on crowdsourcing project. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-06-06]. 17:34:06 wbs-group -- jim, jeanne, greg, kim 17:34:51 were to advertise that the form is available? 17:35:43 Jim: when we get this done how to get the word out 17:35:45 Jeanne: Twitter, LinkedIn, Google plus 17:36:03 Jim: Greg, you seem to have a way to get the data down – if you could scribble that down for us 17:36:18 zakim, close item 2 17:36:18 agendum 2, crowd source Priority Sheet implementation list, closed 17:36:19 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:36:19 3. bug report from A11y Task force https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13624, feed back needed [from allanj] 17:36:32 zakim, open item 3 17:36:32 agendum 3. "bug report from A11y Task force https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13624, feed back needed" taken up [from allanj] 17:37:48 Jim: bug report left over from HTML 5. this is about media players. There's the standard pause feature, there was some discussion that there needs to be an additional pause that some AT might set – like a screen reader might have an audio description and need a special pause for that 17:39:26 Jim: some have said not necessary. To my knowledge I don't see the screen reader is ever going to talk to a media player and say stop while my user reads this. Do we have any specific issues with this particular bug – it currently stands that they are going to drop it unless we have some strong objections – that this needs to be in HTML 5 17:39:57 Jeanne: Kelly, if you pause a description, does it pause the player as well 17:40:05 Jim: that's my understanding 17:40:31 Jeanne: what would this be used for? 17:40:58 Jan: video going and text going on another part of the page that you might want to read up on. I don't think it's necessary these days 17:41:15 Kelly: imagine a webpage listing audio description and aria live updates with text 17:41:38 Jim: but they can still pause the video and read the text to their hearts content and then go back to the video 17:42:14 Greg: reading the bug I don't understand it. There are technical things referenced in the bug report that I don't feel necessarily correspond with what I think were signing it means 17:42:53 Jim: I'm checking out some of those references in there, they are saying this may work but we might have to change some of the accessibility APIs, now we're getting deep 17:43:04 Jim: any objections to having them close the bug? 17:43:23 Greg: I don't feel confident saying it's not necessary because I don't understand it, therefore I don't feel comfortable giving my approval closing it – but that's just me. 17:44:40 Jeanne: I don't think we should say it's not necessary – I agree with Greg that's going too far. What's a good way of saying – we could say that the user agent working group didn't find a compelling use case for making this a requirement 17:45:23 Jeanne: I think we could add that if there's a compelling use case to bring to our attention we can certainly consider it 17:45:55 Jim: this is been kicked around for almost 2 years and no additional comments on this bug. And getting accessibility APIs to change – 17:46:20 Jim: so Greg, I think we've noted your objection and they will craft some wording and send it to the group before I send it off to the HTML 5 group 17:47:34 action: jim to craft a draft response to HTMLWG about the bug 13624 for UAWG review. 17:47:34 Created ACTION-833 - Craft a draft response to HTMLWG about the bug 13624 for UAWG review. [on Jim Allan - due 2013-06-06]. 17:47:44 zakim, close item 3 17:47:44 agendum 3, bug report from A11y Task force https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13624, feed back needed, closed 17:47:46 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:47:46 4. Definition of browser - see "User Agent definition" thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0056.html [from allanj] 17:48:09 zakim, open item 4 17:48:09 agendum 4. "Definition of browser - see "User Agent definition" thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0056.html" taken up [from allanj] 17:48:23 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0069.html 17:49:53 I don't think "a software" is grammatically correct; perhaps change to just "software". 17:50:22 Jan: first change, because you get the situations I could do a calculator on my desktop that sends informational and renders an answer – that's not really a user agent 17:52:37 Jan: Components are offered by different programs. They could be evaluated on their own merits by themselves and then you could then build on top of them so you wouldn't have to do a UAAG evaluation on them every single time. If the company was good at taking WCAG content it could do that for any component on it that uses WCAG content 17:52:43 Note: There is an important distinction to be made between user agents that retrieve, render and facilitate end user interaction with arbitrary web content (in a given technology) and applications that retrieve, render, and facilitate end-user interaction with more restricted data sets. For example, a financial application that retrieves, renders and facilitates user interaction with an... 17:52:44 ...XML-encoded stock price history would not be considered a user agent. Instead, if the application is constructed using web technologies, it would make more sense to evaluate it using WCAG 2.0. 17:53:22 Jan: just trying to find a way that every database backed web application does not become a user agent 17:53:49 Jeanne: should we not do that – there's a fair amount of pressure that we should do that 17:54:32 Jan: I'm just talking about web applications 17:55:05 In the Note, should clarify that WCAG would only web-based apps, not native apps. 17:55:12 Greg: doesn't say web app, so applies to standalone as well, say Quicken 17:55:33 Jan: that can be tightened up 17:56:28 Jan: this web component is pretty good for meeting UAAG and can be used as the basis for things 17:56:35 Jim: we have to be able to evaluate the thing 17:57:04 Jan: these are componentized user agents 17:57:34 Jim: my next question was does Apple have one of these for the iPad of the iPhone, and apparently they do 17:57:43 Greg: this is something that people can build a browser around 17:58:06 Jan: these are little browsers. To make a new browser you grab WebKit and you build the application around it, but it's doing 90% of the stuff itself 17:58:17 Greg: so is it an example of a web complement 17:58:41 Jeanne: I would call that a rendering engine not a view component 17:59:18 Greg: distinction between a rendering engine and a web view component? 17:59:49 Jan: allows you to run it natively on the OS with no other browser in sight 18:00:12 Greg: all these browsers today are baked around some rendering engine, correct – that is usually a separate component – usually integrated into, but can be used separately as well 18:00:34 Jan: I don't want to be the one person pushing this – if this isn't the right way to go 18:01:01 Greg: I don't understand it – what is the difference between a web view component and a rendering engine 18:01:32 Jan: my understanding issue open a shell application which can do almost nothing and this could be the only component that you drop in and it's basically like having a small stripped-down browser inside your application frame which makes your application basically a browser. 18:02:01 Jim: and then you write the widgets that say go get my airline application, but it's still the rendering engine that's getting the information 18:02:19 Greg: and that's a simpler process than having your app use WebKit? 18:02:32 Jan: my understanding is it is very similar to this. 18:02:47 Jim: Apple has one, Microsoft has one, android has one 18:03:05 developer.chrome.com/dev/apps/webview_tag.html‎ 18:03:15 docs.oracle.com/javafx/2/api/javafx/scene/web/WebView.html 18:03:29 msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/apps/BR227702 18:03:31 Jan: or if UAAG just wants to talk about mainline browsers we could do that 18:03:47 Jim: pressure about requiring these little ditties to be browsers? 18:04:10 https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/cocoa/Reference/WebKit/Classes/WebView_Class/Reference/Reference.html 18:04:25 developer.android.com/guide/webapps/webview.html‎ 18:04:39 developer.android.com/reference/android/webkit/WebView.html‎ 18:04:46 Jeanne: no, pressure in policymaking right now is guidelines that are oriented to mobile apps, and that the mobile apps are not covered by WCAG because their interface is standalone. Discussion: if something is written in HTML 5 even if it's a standalone app whether that would be considered web content for the purposes of WCAG 18:05:51 http://developer.blackberry.com/cascades/reference/bb__cascades__webview.html 18:06:02 Jeanne: I do think we've written guidelines that address the user interface – is actually probably a vulnerability in what Jan is talking about the user component because most of our guidelines are talking about the interface and not the rendering. About 75% user interface, 25% applies to rendering engine. 18:09:24 Jeanne: what's pushing us to make this decision, glossary entry 18:09:26 Jim: it's at the top of the document 18:09:28 Jeanne: do we need this to be finalized to go forward, or do we leave it in a vague state 18:09:30 Jim: I think we leave it in a vague state until we get some direction from others 18:09:32 Jeanne: I don't want to lock out the mobile apps, I think what we have is valuable – I would still like to see us include mobile applications 18:09:57 kp: mobile apps should be UA. 18:11:52 Jim: so WCAG may not put mobile apps in their charter? 18:11:53 Jeanne: if they take it on, they would have to start writing techniques which is a big deal. If they do it's not as important for us to 18:12:41 Jeane: I believe they are looking at both standalone web based applications and the standalone web applications that are written in HTML 5 but run on multiple platforms 18:13:15 Jan: their definition – any software that retrieves and presents web content 18:14:15 Jan: UAAGs great – a superhero, but if you don't need that it's overkill. If you point to someone that is just a small application and say you are a user agent, not necessary 18:14:51 Jim: 5.1.1 – we also say the buttons in my airline app have to meet WCAG 18:15:54 Jeanne: can we postpone the discussion until after the CG meeting on the 19th 18:16:26 Jim: yes. Somehow we should be able to approach this so that we and WCAG can be in agreement about this. Based on what Jan was saying we are closer to that we just have to get our words right 18:17:50 Action: jallan to resume the discussion of Definition of user Agent on June 13 and further discussion to follow 18:17:51 Created ACTION-834 - Resume the discussion of Definition of user Agent on June 13 and further discussion to follow [on Jim Allan - due 2013-06-06]. 18:18:27 zakim, agenda? 18:18:27 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 18:18:28 4. Definition of browser - see "User Agent definition" thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0056.html [from allanj] 18:18:28 5. Testing sub-group/writing tests [from allanj] 18:18:28 6. Level A Existing Implementations - add them to spreadsheet - PLEASE. [from allanj] 18:18:37 zakim, close item 4 18:18:37 agendum 4, Definition of browser - see "User Agent definition" thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0056.html, closed 18:18:39 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:18:39 5. Testing sub-group/writing tests [from allanj] 18:18:44 zakim, open item 5 18:18:44 agendum 5. "Testing sub-group/writing tests" taken up [from allanj] 18:19:46 Jim: would be useful if someone would step up and say I will handle this 18:20:50 Jeanne: I wanted to do a sample test this week, but got caught up in other projects. 18:20:52 Greg: if I remember correctly email going around the different proposals for what these tests would look like 18:20:53 Jim: perhaps if we decided on a format 18:20:55 Greg: lot of good arguments for using what atag was setting 18:21:42 Jeanne: it shouldn't have to change much to work with the W3C testing tool but the point was to write tests that were clear instructions to a tester and then if we had to change how was formatted we could do that – it's easy to change the formatting, it's hard to write the language especially to make it clear and understandable 18:22:07 Jim: Jan, you said that atag had a lot of if, then's 18:22:38 Jim: others a lot of videos etc. and you could see if you could turn them on etc. 18:23:12 Jan: for some things you need that 18:23:36 Jim: for a lot of the user interface things we would need something like that 18:24:01 Eric has joined #ua 18:24:07 Jim: split out user interface things from a tag if then things 18:24:45 Jeanne: you did that and it was mailed out 18:25:08 action: jim to create a breakout list of UI components etc. that need a test page, and other SC that need IF/THEN type of testing statements 18:25:09 Created ACTION-835 - Create a breakout list of UI components etc. that need a test page, and other SC that need IF/THEN type of testing statements [on Jim Allan - due 2013-06-06]. 18:27:08 Jeanne: we've had a W3C fellow for a year who is working on testing is leading the whole testing effort mostly for HTML 5 and CSS3. One thing he said that was very important was if there are not a lot of areas that can be automated it's important not to automate them because people will tend to only test the things that can be automated and ignore the rest. And we all saw that in the early... 18:27:10 ...WCAG where people could only test for four things and therefore those were the only things they tested for. Cautionary note before we start trying to create test pages. 18:27:39 Jeanne: they are doing away with the manual tests 18:28:19 Jeanne: had a long conversation with him, conclusion is we are not going to be able to automate it because we can't run automated tests on the user interface because it's a violation of security to do it – they can do it internally, but we can't 18:29:07 Jim: I'll finish that breakout lists, and perhaps some creative people will create tests. 18:30:01 zakim, close item 5 18:30:01 agendum 5, Testing sub-group/writing tests, closed 18:30:02 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 18:30:02 6. Level A Existing Implementations - add them to spreadsheet - PLEASE. [from allanj] 18:30:36 zakim, close item 6 18:30:36 agendum 6, Level A Existing Implementations - add them to spreadsheet - PLEASE., closed 18:30:39 I see nothing remaining on the agenda 18:30:48 rrsagent, make minutes 18:30:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/30-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:30:55 -kford 18:31:11 -Jan 18:31:12 -Greg_Lowney 18:31:21 -Kim_Patch 18:31:22 -Eric 18:31:22 -Jim_Allan 18:31:31 zakim, please part 18:31:31 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, Jim_Allan, kford, Kim_Patch, Jan, +1.609.734.aaaa, Eric, Greg_Lowney 18:31:31 Zakim has left #ua 18:32:04 rrsagent, make minutes 18:32:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/30-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:32:41 rrsagent, please part 18:32:41 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/30-ua-actions.rdf : 18:32:41 ACTION: Jeanne to schedule a meeting for a subgroup to work on crowdsourcing project. [1] 18:32:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/30-ua-irc#T17-33-11 18:32:41 ACTION: jim to craft a draft response to HTMLWG about the bug 13624 for UAWG review. [2] 18:32:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/30-ua-irc#T17-47-34 18:32:41 ACTION: jallan to resume the discussion of Definition of user Agent on June 13 and further discussion to follow [3] 18:32:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/30-ua-irc#T18-17-50 18:32:41 ACTION: jim to create a breakout list of UI components etc. that need a test page, and other SC that need IF/THEN type of testing statements [4] 18:32:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/30-ua-irc#T18-25-08