16:32:03 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:32:03 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-ua-irc 16:32:05 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:32:05 Zakim has joined #ua 16:32:07 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:32:07 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes 16:32:08 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:32:08 Date: 23 May 2013 16:32:18 rrsagent, set logs public 16:32:30 chair: JimAllan, KellyFord 16:32:40 agenda? 16:57:41 kford has joined #ua 16:59:31 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:59:31 Greg has joined #ua 16:59:35 +[Microsoft] 16:59:45 zakim, microsoft is kford 16:59:45 +kford; got it 17:00:38 Jan has joined #ua 17:01:05 zakim, code? 17:01:05 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 17:01:38 +darobin 17:02:16 -darobin 17:02:17 +Jim_Allan 17:02:53 +??P2 17:03:07 Agenda+ Definition of browser - see "User Agent definition" thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0056.html 17:03:09 agenda+ Testing sub-group/writing tests 17:03:10 Agenda+ Level A Existing Implementations - add them to spreadsheet - PLEASE. 17:03:12 agenda+ Face to Face information 17:03:29 zakim, ??P2 is really Jan 17:03:29 +Jan; got it 17:03:56 +Greg_Lowney 17:05:43 + +1.609.734.aaaa 17:07:12 zakim, who's here? 17:07:12 On the phone I see kford, Jim_Allan, Jan, Greg_Lowney, +1.609.734.aaaa 17:07:13 On IRC I see Jan, Greg, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, allanj, trackbot 17:08:24 +Jeanne 17:08:36 jeanne has joined #ua 17:10:10 UAAG20 new version was officially published!!! 17:10:36 Eric has joined #ua 17:10:53 agenda? 17:11:19 scribe: allanj 17:11:38 open item 4 17:11:48 Scribe: kford 17:12:03 JA: Dates are 7/23-25 17:12:56 Group talking about dates briefly. 17:14:30 sharper has joined #ua 17:16:31 UAAG announcement tweet for those who want to RT -> https://twitter.com/w3c_wai/status/337616376942428160 17:16:33 +??P7 17:16:58 zakim, ??P7 is sharper 17:16:58 +sharper; got it 17:17:12 zakim, close item 4 17:17:12 agendum 4, Face to Face information, closed 17:17:13 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:17:13 1. Definition of browser - see "User Agent definition" thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0056.html [from allanj] 17:17:27 zakim, take up item 1 17:17:27 agendum 1. "Definition of browser - see "User Agent definition" thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0056.html" taken up [from allanj] 17:17:46 JA recaps thread. 17:17:56 rrsagent, make minutes 17:17:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-ua-minutes.html kford 17:18:00 jan's comments http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0057.html 17:18:34 JA: There were a couple of edits in there JAN. You said web view component in mobile apps changed. 17:19:23 JA: There is a lot that is overkill in UAAG for our American Airlines app example. In my new wording it would be covered. 17:19:42 Note, previous was from JR. 17:21:13 JA American airlines app, controls never change. In browser controls can often change depending on content stream. 17:22:17 Jeanne: Stand alone web apps that get web content have no gu8idelines that cover. 17:23:08 Group continues to discuss what stand alone apps should provide. 17:23:19 GL: Games do not want to provide a source view. 17:23:43 (That is, most commercial webapps.) 17:23:43 Jeanne: If you can tell me the difference between a magazine app and the AA app, let me know. 17:24:41 EH: Should there be a place for you could asssert that a certain SC would be not applicable by virtual of the fact that this would fundamentally alert the agent. 17:25:12 s/alert/alter 17:25:38 Jeanne: We do say if the platform doesn't support something the agent does not have to do so. 17:26:26 EH: So you hare saying we already have th8is covered? 17:26:40 Jeanne: I think so but we'd need to test it. 17:27:35 EH: I sent an example of a testing application where you are very careful about what you expose to the student. 17:28:19 rrsagent, make minutes 17:28:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-ua-minutes.html kford 17:28:28 We should probably be updating and taking notes in http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Use_Cases_for_UAAG_Applicability. 17:30:21 jan: special case for constrained functionality (no code view for testing application) would make a good note. 17:30:39 rrsagent, agenda? 17:30:39 I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'agenda' 17:30:45 zakim, agenda? 17:30:45 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 17:30:46 1. Definition of browser - see "User Agent definition" thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0056.html [from allanj] 17:30:46 2. Testing sub-group/writing tests [from allanj] 17:30:46 3. Level A Existing Implementations - add them to spreadsheet - PLEASE. [from allanj] 17:32:17 eh: WCAG has an exemption from conformance for testing 17:32:33 WCAG2 1.1.1 Non-text Content: All non-text content that is presented to the user has a text alternative that serves the equivalent purpose, except for the situations listed below. (Level A) - Test: If non-text content is a test or exercise that would be invalid if presented in text, then text alternatives at least provide descriptive identification of the non-text content. 17:33:16 +Kim_Patch 17:34:01 jr: where to draw line between airline app and some other app with a more detailed interface. 17:34:47 current definition 17:34:52 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:34:52 user agent 17:34:53 A user agent is any software that retrieves, renders and facilitates 17:34:55 end user interaction with Web content. If the software only performs 17:34:56 these functions for time-based media, then the software is typically 17:34:58 referred to as a *media player*, otherwise, the more general 17:34:59 designation *browser* is used. UAAG 2.0 identifies several user 17:35:01 agent architectures: 17:35:02 action: jeanne to work with Jan to work up language for the glossary definition of user agent subtypes. 17:35:02 Created ACTION-831 - Work with Jan to work up language for the glossary definition of user agent subtypes. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-05-30]. 17:35:02 stand-alone, non-web-based, browser: These user agents run on 17:35:04 non-Web platforms (operating systems and cross-OS platforms, such as 17:35:05 Java) and perform content retrieval, rendering and end-user 17:35:07 interaction facilitation themselves. (e.g. Firefox, IE, Chrome, Opera). 17:35:08 embedded user agent: These user agents "plug-in" to stand-alone user 17:35:10 agents in order to rendering and facilitate end-user interaction for 17:35:11 content types (e.g. multimedia), that the stand-alone user agent is 17:35:13 not able to (e.g. Quicktime, Acrobat Reader, Shockwave). Embedded 17:35:14 user agents establish direct connections with the platform (e.g. 17:35:16 communication via platform accessibility services) 17:35:17 web-based user agent: These user agents operate by (a) transforming 17:35:19 the web content into a technology that the stand-alone (or embedded) 17:35:20 user agent can render and (b) injecting the user agent's own user 17:35:22 interface functionality into the content to be rendered. (e.g. 17:35:23 Gmail, Facebook, Skype) 17:35:25 web view component, mobile app: These user agents are used to 17:35:27 package a constrained set of web content into non-web-based 17:35:28 applications, especially on mobile platforms. If the finished 17:35:30 application retrieves, renders and facilitates end-user interaction 17:35:31 with web content, then the application is a user agent. If the 17:35:33 finished application only renders non web content, then the 17:35:34 application is not a user agent for the purposes of UAAG 2.0 17:35:36 conformance. 17:35:37 scribe: allanj 17:37:28 better version 17:39:14 A user agent is any software that retrieves, renders and facilitates end user interaction with Web content. If the software only performs these functions for time-based media, then the software is typically referred to as a *media player*, otherwise, the more general designation *browser* is used. UAAG 2.0 identifies several user agent architectures: 17:39:15 stand-alone, non-web-based, browser: These user agents run on non-Web platforms (operating systems and cross-OS platforms, such as Java) and perform content retrieval, rendering and end-user interaction facilitation themselves. (e.g. Firefox, IE, Chrome, Opera). 17:39:17 embedded user agent: These user agents "plug-in" to stand-alone user agents in order to rendering and facilitate end-user interaction for content types (e.g. multimedia), that the stand-alone user agent is not able to (e.g. Quicktime, Acrobat Reader, Shockwave). Embedded user agents establish direct connections with the platform (e.g. communication via platform accessibility services) 17:39:18 web-based user agent: These user agents operate by (a) transforming the web content into a technology that the stand-alone (or embedded) user agent can render and (b) injecting the user agent's own user interface functionality into the content to be rendered. (e.g. Gmail, Facebook, Skype) 17:39:20 web view component, mobile app: These user agents are used to package a constrained set of web content into non-web-based applications, especially on mobile platforms. If the finished application retrieves, renders and facilitates end-user interaction with web content, then the application is a user agent. If the finished application only renders non web content, then the application is... 17:39:21 ...not a user agent for the purposes of UAAG 2.0 conformance. 17:40:24 Hotmail, Googledocs and Flexpaper for new examples of web-based user agent 17:41:07 js: added mobile app handle to webview component 17:42:15 ja: web vs non-webcontent 17:43:48 jr: airline app is very constrained to its own data, all interface components are html. perhaps only WCAG apply 17:44:00 -Jan 17:44:22 ... but there are constrained SC that do apply...like role, state, name, etc. 17:44:32 +[IPcaller] 17:44:41 oops 17:44:58 js: perhaps the current definition sets too high a bar for web apps. 17:45:04 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 17:45:04 +Jan; got it 17:46:14 gl: reading over the definition...with a fresh look 17:46:46 ...issue with lack of plugins and extension 17:47:03 js: plugins are embedded user agents 17:47:26 gl: still missing extension paragraph 17:48:41 gl: suggest spreadsheet of criteria that cause UA to meet the various categories 17:48:47 jr: seems overkill 17:49:13 jr: an extension is nothing with out a UA to extend 17:52:12 eh: architectures implies there would be sections in the document. These architectures only appear in the glossary. 17:52:53 ... should be soffened, and not bolded (which implies that I can search the doc for these terms, but nothing shows up) 17:53:31 jr: want to keep these. could see 'web view' could be a constrained conformance claim 17:54:51 jr: new thinking.... android webview component could make a claim on the component, not on a full browsers. but if you build a full browser based on the component then have to meet all of UA 17:55:49 ... webview would be a separate conformance claim 17:56:45 gl: confused by the wording. should apply to standalone and mobile apps. 17:56:58 ... why only mobile. 17:57:24 jr: could have a desktop app. 17:57:37 gl: then just like any other program 17:58:11 jr: right, want to remove apps and focus on the component only. 17:58:28 gl: this really needs to be clear. 17:59:24 jr: the airline app would not need to make a UAAG conformance claim, only the webview component would be a claimant 17:59:51 more examples/usecase discussion 18:02:37 jr: will ponder more, and work with JS to make things more 18:03:52 gl: will work with JS and JR 18:05:52 zakim, close item 1 18:05:52 agendum 1, Definition of browser - see "User Agent definition" thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0056.html, closed 18:05:54 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:05:54 2. Testing sub-group/writing tests [from allanj] 18:06:45 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Use_Cases_for_UAAG_Applicability#Use_Cases_for_Conformance 18:07:16 zakim, take up item 2 18:07:16 agendum 2. "Testing sub-group/writing tests" taken up [from allanj] 18:07:42 group first revisiting F2F schedule. 18:16:00 js: review test 18:16:43 sh: discussed his submissions, instructions for thought processes 18:17:29 js: these are good for constructing tests 18:17:53 ja: my example http://www.tsbvi.edu/uaag/1-3-1-test.html 18:22:51 jr: perhaps note the differences between the element (a-e) ensure they are different, then look to see if they are changeable 18:23:37 eh: procedure to implement capability is different from testing a capability 18:24:32 eh: like SH precision available from pseudo-code. seemed a procedure for implementing a feature rather than testing. 18:25:20 sh: yes, that's how I think about things...the code ends up being the comments in real code. 18:26:12 ... could write in rule based language (RAVEN, JESS - java expert system shell) 18:26:47 http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/os-eclipse-raven/ 18:26:58 'Test GUI accessibility the Eclipse RAVEN way' 18:27:21 eh: sh code is a possible implementation. a rule for testing would fit many implementations 18:30:07 eh: do we need to scope each SC, when do these get applied, ... 18:30:56 js: need to write assertions. for big items - how to test for wcag items. included in part of the document. 18:31:06 ... scoping is very important 18:33:21 jr: ATAG list test resources, a test document with all non-text content and alternatives to test each sub SC. 18:34:02 -sharper 18:34:23 js: remember, we will be doing the testing. 18:35:22 ja: should we list assertions/assumptions/preconditions 18:35:59 -Jan 18:36:06 - +1.609.734.aaaa 18:36:07 -Kim_Patch 18:36:11 -Greg_Lowney 18:36:21 zakim, who is here? 18:36:21 On the phone I see kford, Jim_Allan, Jeanne 18:36:22 On IRC I see KimPatch, Eric, jeanne, Jan, Greg, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, allanj, trackbot 18:36:41 rrsagent, make minutes 18:36:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:37:03 zakim, please part 18:37:03 leaving. As of this point the attendees were kford, darobin, Jim_Allan, Jan, Greg_Lowney, +1.609.734.aaaa, Jeanne, sharper, Kim_Patch 18:37:03 Zakim has left #ua 18:37:12 rrsagent, make minutes 18:37:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:39:02 rrsagent, make minutes 18:39:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-ua-minutes.html kford 18:53:34 rrsagent, please part 18:53:34 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-ua-actions.rdf : 18:53:34 ACTION: jeanne to work with Jan to work up language for the glossary definition of user agent subtypes. [1] 18:53:34 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-ua-irc#T17-35-02