15:50:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #privacy
15:50:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-privacy-irc
15:50:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 263
15:50:11 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #privacy
15:50:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
15:50:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:50:14 <trackbot> Meeting: Privacy Interest Group Teleconference
15:50:14 <trackbot> Date: 23 May 2013
15:50:22 <npdoty> rrsagent, make logs public
15:50:33 <npdoty> Zakim, this will be ping
15:50:34 <Zakim> ok, npdoty; I see Team_(privacy)16:00Z scheduled to start in 10 minutes
15:52:10 <Zakim> Team_(privacy)16:00Z has now started
15:52:18 <Zakim> + +358.504.87aaaa
15:55:59 <christine> christine has joined #privacy
15:56:35 <Zakim> +npdoty
15:57:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:57:11 <npdoty> Zakim, aaaa is hannes
15:57:11 <Zakim> +hannes; got it
15:57:20 <christine> Zakim, [IPcaller} is me
15:57:20 <Zakim> sorry, christine, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller}'
15:57:41 <npdoty> Zakim, [IPcaller] is christine
15:57:41 <Zakim> +christine; got it
15:58:32 <Zakim> + +1.650.283.aabb
15:58:38 <tara> tara has joined #privacy
15:59:15 <tara> Why, yes! Is muted now. :-)
15:59:22 <npdoty> Zakim, aabb is tara
15:59:22 <Zakim> +tara; got it
15:59:48 <npdoty> chair: tara
16:00:27 <christine> Regrets: Erin Kennedy, Karima Boudaoud
16:00:35 <christine> Agenda:
16:00:35 <wseltzer> zakim, code?
16:00:35 <Zakim> the conference code is 7464 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), wseltzer
16:00:46 <Zakim> +Wendy
16:00:55 <christine> 1. Welcome and introductions. 2. Introduction to The app: URI scheme [1] and privacy considerations (Marcos Caceres from the Sys Apps WG) 3. Follow-up to recent emails regarding the text for privacy considerations for Ambient Light Events and Proximity Events 4. Privacy guidance documents (Privacy Considerations; Fingerprinting; Process) 5. getUserMedia privacy review (update) 6. EME privacy review (update) 7. AOB
16:02:36 <christine> Would someone be kind enough to volunteer to scribe?
16:03:05 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:03:40 <npdoty> Zakim, [Microsoft] has JC
16:03:40 <Zakim> +JC; got it
16:03:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:10 <JC> JC has joined #PRIVACY
16:04:38 <npdoty> Zakim, [IPcaller] is marcos
16:04:40 <Zakim> +marcos; got it
16:04:46 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #privacy
16:04:54 <npdoty> Zakim, marcos is really marcosc
16:04:54 <Zakim> +marcosc; got it
16:05:32 <yrlesru> yrlesru has joined #privacy
16:05:39 <christine> Who hasn't scribed for PING before?
16:06:10 <yrlesru> yrelsru is Frank Dawson
16:06:13 <JC> I can scribe
16:06:24 <tara> Thanks!
16:06:24 <christine> Big thank you JC
16:06:41 <wseltzer> scribenick: JC
16:07:09 <Zakim> +??P38
16:07:33 <JC> Christine: Call for introductions for new people
16:07:49 <christine> Hi JC . Tara is chairing today.
16:07:50 <yrlesru> Frank Dawson just joined voice call.
16:08:10 <npdoty> Zakim, ??P38 is yrlesru
16:08:10 <Zakim> +yrlesru; got it
16:08:13 <JC> Marcosc: I work for Mozilla in web API team. Work on Firefox OS for mobile
16:08:35 <JC>  ... enables apps of which some rely on API, which I will discuss today
16:08:44 <npdoty> Topic: app URI scheme
16:08:51 <wseltzer> zakim, who is here?
16:08:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see hannes, npdoty, christine, tara, Wendy, [Microsoft], marcosc, yrlesru
16:08:51 <JC> Christine: Let's move to first agenda item
16:08:53 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JC
16:08:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see yrlesru, marcosc, JC, tara, christine, Zakim, RRSAgent, npdoty, glenn, jeffh, trackbot, wseltzer
16:08:55 <marcosc> link: http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/app-uri/
16:09:37 <JC> Marcosc: There is a newish class of app emerging in last 6-8 years, HTML & Javascript calls
16:09:59 <JC>  ... packaged into a zip file and a browswer can find the main file and startup the application
16:10:28 <JC>  ... a crucial part of the app is the ability to interact with services on the web
16:10:54 <JC>  ... though they are not linable they need to interach with web technologies
16:11:26 <JC>  ... HTML5 and related techs define relationship around HTTP semantics
16:11:52 <JC>  ... for web apps need something similar to the ability to run HTTP without bringing in a web server
16:12:04 <wseltzer> s/linable/linkable
16:12:09 <wseltzer> s/interach/interact
16:12:57 <JC>  ... the challenge is we have one instance of an application running it has to look like its running from one origin
16:13:18 <JC>  ... if there are multiple apps running it can look like there are running from dfferent locations
16:13:37 <JC>  ... we usage different IDs for each app
16:13:58 <JC>  ... each app can have its own cookie and storage to avoid overwriting each other's data
16:14:12 <JC>  ... the privacy issue arises from the URI scheme
16:14:26 <JC>  ... every person gets a unique number which makes for supertracking
16:15:00 <JC>  ... Bjorn has mentioned that it may not matter as an ID generator could be created to map IDs
16:15:16 <JC>  ... is this a problem that we should change?
16:15:22 <JC>  ... or address
16:15:36 <JC>  ... Windows 8 and Chrome have similar features
16:15:49 <christine> q+
16:15:51 <npdoty> q+
16:16:08 <JC> Christine: Ready for feedback or questions
16:16:25 <wseltzer> s/Christine:/Tara:/
16:16:34 <tara> ack christine
16:16:49 <JC> Christine: Can you give me a practical example of multiple instances running at same time
16:17:07 <JC> Marcosc: Do you know dashboard widgets that come with Macs
16:17:22 <JC>  ... you can spawn two instances of calculator or other app
16:17:27 <JC>  ... that is the idea
16:17:39 <tara> ack npdoty
16:17:53 <wseltzer> q+
16:18:01 <JC> Npdoty: Do we need a unique identifier?
16:18:16 <JC>  ... it seems like it is needed so each instance needs its own storage
16:18:31 <JC>  ... does that mean they need a unique ID?
16:19:14 <JC> Marcosc: You are right. From a dev point of view it is not needed e.g. files dont need them
16:19:37 <JC>  ... the reason they are needed is because browsers are designed to use a ID like domain name
16:20:04 <marcosc> app://foo/myfile.js
16:20:07 <JC>  ... it would mean writing a great chunk of web browsers to get around this
16:20:18 <npdoty> but does it need to be a *persistent* identifier? or could it be just as opaque if it changed on every run?
16:20:40 <marcosc> app://myfunkyapp/myfile.js
16:20:53 <JC>  ... the alternative is to use a string like app://myfunkyapp/myfile.js
16:21:09 <JC>  ... if I get rid of multiple instance problem that would solve problem
16:21:38 <JC> npdoty: does the identifier need to be persistant?
16:22:04 <JC> Marcosc: No, it doesn't. the app would need to regenerate it
16:22:16 <JC>  ... this is something browsers need to work out though
16:22:34 <JC> Npdoty: that's onlye one mitigation
16:22:57 <JC>  ... Even if we avoided this the app could create a unique ID
16:23:17 <JC> Marcosc: My proposal was to be able to clear all history and start with a new number
16:23:42 <JC>  ... let's say its a FB app running. You would get the same cookie, but login identifies the user
16:24:03 <JC>  ... It is fair to clear all data and start with a new ID
16:24:12 <JC> Npdoty: was there pushback?
16:24:24 <JC> Marcosc: Yes, because users would lose their data
16:24:45 <JC>  ... I think that is okay to lose the data. It shouldn't be that traumatic
16:24:56 <JC>  ... the dev can provide mechanisms to backup data
16:25:10 <tara> ack wseltzer
16:25:27 <JC> Wseltzer: The app serves as origin and acts as server?
16:25:32 <JC> Marcosc: Yes
16:25:59 <JC> Wseltzer: that is counter intuitive as far as user agent interaction.
16:26:17 <JC>  ... I like the idea of clearing the data. Is there room for other best practices?
16:26:38 <JC> Marcosc: We could ask user if the domain can track location.
16:26:57 <JC>  ... In that situation it would not be good to show random set of numbers
16:27:11 <JC> Tara: is there a way to get the UA to translate the data back
16:27:20 <npdoty> +1, these would make for horribly ugly Geolocation permissions dialogs
16:27:34 <JC> Marcosc: the app ships with a manifest file so we can determine the name of the app
16:27:38 <npdoty> ..... assuming the name is correct
16:28:02 <npdoty> scribenick: npdoty
16:28:02 <wseltzer> s/Tara:/Wseltzer:/
16:28:22 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:28:30 <npdoty> hannes: for the uri scheme, there is a security aspect (the same-origin policy)
16:28:46 <npdoty> ... to have the functionality of a port number to deal with multiple instances of the same application running on the host
16:29:00 <npdoty> ... the port number concept illustrates that you can use regular numbers without exposing a long identifier
16:29:08 <npdoty> ... only needs to be local to the host, not globally unique
16:30:06 <npdoty> ... re: security aspects, if the app wants to communicate with someone else and store data, they will need concepts beyond this identifier -- you won't want to base your security on this made-up identifier, not a cookie-like equivalent
16:30:36 <npdoty> ... uuid wouldn't be enough to let the application be reachable, no resolution mechanism to translate the ID into an IP address for example
16:30:59 <npdoty> marcosc: outside of scope, but it may relate back. instead of using an ID, using a human-readable string
16:31:27 <npdoty> ... in making an HTTP request, would send an Origin header, but send it with a random ID, then the server won't know who you are
16:31:38 <npdoty> ... there is a proposal that applications should be able to fake their origin
16:31:49 <marcosc> app://google.com
16:31:56 <npdoty> ... instead of faking an origin like http://google.com, instead: app://google.com
16:32:32 <npdoty> ... fear of hijacking, how you would download an app, verify the app and send it to the server as authorized
16:32:57 <npdoty> ... could eventually come back into the app uri scheme
16:33:02 <npdoty> ... has to be part of a complete solution
16:33:43 <npdoty> hannes: have you written these different aspects already? a somewhat complicated story, same origin in the context of downloaded application
16:34:07 <npdoty> ... same-origin intended to protect against a browser sending off data to some other server
16:34:19 <npdoty> ... downloaded applications historically could send data to any place
16:34:26 <npdoty> marcosc: these are not supposed to do that
16:34:50 <npdoty> ... at least in Mozilla, came up with a System XHR which does contact any server you want, not a great solution
16:35:19 <npdoty> ... spec at the moment is limited to the use case where a developer wants to access or save something locally to the package, which all rely on origin
16:35:45 <npdoty> ... I'm treating them as outside the scope, because these applications can't yet communicate with the outside world
16:35:55 <npdoty> ... enable with CSP and CORS
16:36:17 <npdoty> ... in theory the app uri scheme can be used with CORS, no reason why it can't; in theory it works quite nicely with CSP
16:36:55 <npdoty> hannes: will have a look at the document, seems like a complicated story
16:37:08 <npdoty> marcosc: that story is not covered yet, but sysapps will need to address that in one spec eventually
16:37:18 <npdoty> ... if you have any idea about that, it would be a huge help, but a broader scope
16:37:44 <npdoty> tara: could use more discussion on the mailing list about this?
16:37:54 <npdoty> marcosc: I think so, the points have been raised already, but can discuss more on the list
16:38:25 <npdoty> ... at least as it evolves, if we do address using CORS or faking origins, looking at those implications and possible solutions
16:38:50 <npdoty> ... could we somehow get a token from the server that owns a domain to prove this app is 'okay'
16:39:02 <npdoty> hannes: that @@@ exists
16:39:09 <npdoty> marcosc: can you point me to papers or examples?
16:39:30 <npdoty> tara: encourage more of this discussion on the list, and if we have more extensive resources
16:39:38 <npdoty> +1, thanks marcosc!
16:39:43 <npdoty> tara: thanks, marcos!
16:39:52 <npdoty> Topic: Ambient Light / Proximity follow-up
16:40:06 <npdoty> christine: security and privacy considerations proposed by Frederik
16:40:17 <npdoty> ... nick raised some questions, then addressed by Frederik
16:40:45 <npdoty> ... spec updated by the editor, and then some editorial changes by fjh
16:40:52 <npdoty> ... we should provide our comments before next week
16:41:06 <christine>  https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/default/proximity/Overview.html#security-and-privacy-considerations
16:41:16 <christine> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/default/light/Overview.html#security-and-privacy-considerations
16:41:20 <npdoty> tara: please do send those comments along
16:41:30 <npdoty> Topic: Document Status
16:43:06 <npdoty> npd: on fingerprinting, no new updates on the fingerprinting-guidance text in particular
16:43:31 <npdoty> ... but the app: uri scheme we just talked about might actually be a great example for us to discuss in terms of cookie-like
16:43:41 <christine> http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/privacy-questions-markup.doc
16:43:57 <npdoty> hannes: went through the list of privacy questions, a great list, to see how they might work in our privacy considerations
16:44:21 <npdoty> ... some of them already exist; a few where I have clarity questions (from Karl D. in particular)
16:44:31 <npdoty> ... some questions were new, which I made as updates to the document
16:44:56 <npdoty> ... some questions I didn't have answers for (from Nick and Wendy)
16:45:18 <npdoty> ... it would be nice to get some reviewers for an updated version of the document, further room for improvement
16:45:34 <npdoty> ... included links to Nick's fingerprinting document for definitions
16:46:04 <npdoty> yrlesru: Specification Privacy Assessment document
16:46:13 <npdoty> ... working with Nick to get that up on GitHub, should be there soon hopefully
16:46:20 <npdoty> ... haven't received any comments on that
16:46:32 <npdoty> tara: looking for comments now? wait to get it on GitHub?
16:46:44 <npdoty> yrlesru: should be up there this week and then ask for comments
16:47:29 <npdoty> tara: want to make sure we're getting the feedback you all need
16:47:36 <christine> Updated privacy guidance document is here: http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/w3c-privacy-guidelines.html
16:47:41 <npdoty> npd: examples of the new questions we need answers for
16:48:04 <npdoty> hannes: does the service/browser provide some information so that the user can adjust their behavior?
16:48:22 <npdoty> ... background events firing in all browser contexts allow correlation of users across contexts, not sure how to answer that yet
16:48:42 <npdoty> ... david asked a couple of questions about correlation, so added some text on that
16:48:59 <npdoty> ... user preferences / user control; who can have access to the data, how visible is that to the user
16:49:26 <npdoty> ... can code send signals to nearby devices, an interesting thought
16:50:41 <npdoty> npd: great, thanks. hope we can be more systematic than just the questions that we have asked so far, maybe Frank's document can help with that
16:51:16 <npdoty> hannes: I've tried to provide some clustering, but Frank's document might be more principled with regard to process
16:51:46 <npdoty> yrlesru: had sent around one document with Security and Privacy Considerations
16:51:54 <npdoty> ... a PIA template, will dig that up and post to the list
16:52:25 <npdoty> christine: the Privacy Impact Assessment Template <author unknown>
16:53:03 <npdoty> yrlesru: might be a nice way of grouping the questions; engineers may prefer a checklist like a pilot, rather than a formal process
16:53:12 <npdoty> ... checklist of questions might be more operational
16:53:35 <npdoty> tara: thanks all, can give some time for Frank on the next phone call
16:54:04 <npdoty> Topic: Quick Updates on ongoing privacy reviews
16:54:13 <npdoty> hannes: a bit behind on getUserMedia privacy review
16:54:31 <npdoty> ... have looked at the document, somewhat similar to the Geolocation privacy assessment
16:54:52 <npdoty> ... with the difference that you can't as easily utilize data minimization because reducing the quality of audio in a conference call isn't all that useful
16:55:09 <npdoty> ... maybe someone can help me with a short write-up? tara: volunteers?
16:55:38 <npdoty> christine: joe might have offered to help previously, to review something that's been drafted
16:56:07 <npdoty> ... hard because the TPWG is taking up a lot of privacy people's time
16:56:32 <npdoty> tara: understanding that we all have a lot of work; any assistance is much appreciated
16:57:22 <npdoty> wseltzer: EME, would love to get volunteers to help look into the privacy considerations in encrypted media
16:57:31 <npdoty> ... a rich spec for investigation, nothing new to report
16:57:41 <christine> Can we have draft privacy reviews done before the next call?
16:58:22 <wseltzer> christine, no
16:58:38 <fjh> fjh has joined #privacy
16:58:46 <fjh> zakim, code?
16:58:46 <Zakim> the conference code is 7464 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh
16:58:50 <npdoty> npd: timeline for EME? are there particular people we could recruit inside that group?
16:59:14 <wseltzer> Wseltzer: good questions
16:59:16 <npdoty> wseltzer: a long potential timeline, going through bugs, etc.; don't know of people in particular, but we should enjoin them to encourage participation
16:59:31 <npdoty> next call?
16:59:38 <christine> I prefer 20/6
16:59:54 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:59:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-privacy-minutes.html fjh
17:00:49 <christine> If it is 27/6, I am may be in transit or still in a far east time zone
17:01:23 <yrlesru> Thx. Bye.
17:01:24 <npdoty> how about tentatively June 20th, and north-europeans should let us know about their summer party schedules
17:01:26 <Zakim> -Wendy
17:01:27 <Zakim> -marcosc
17:01:28 <npdoty> tara: thanks all
17:01:29 <Zakim> -tara
17:01:30 <Zakim> -hannes
17:01:58 <npdoty> Zakim, list attendees
17:01:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +358.504.87aaaa, npdoty, hannes, christine, +1.650.283.aabb, tara, Wendy, JC, marcosc, yrlesru
17:02:04 <npdoty> rrsagent, please draft the minutes
17:02:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/23-privacy-minutes.html npdoty
17:02:09 <npdoty> Zakim, bye
17:02:09 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +358.504.87aaaa, npdoty, hannes, christine, +1.650.283.aabb, tara, Wendy, JC, marcosc, yrlesru
17:02:09 <Zakim> Zakim has left #privacy
17:02:18 <npdoty> rrsagent, bye
17:02:18 <RRSAgent> I see no action items