IRC log of css on 2013-05-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:18:47 [RRSAgent]
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15:18:47 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:18:54 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:18:54 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 42 minutes
15:18:58 [glazou]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:24:41 [glenn]
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15:46:30 [antonp]
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15:55:02 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:02 [glenn]
glenn has joined #css
15:55:07 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aaaa
15:55:16 [dbaron]
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15:55:22 [krit]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:55:22 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
15:56:08 [MaRakow]
MaRakow has joined #CSS
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oyvind has joined #css
15:56:55 [Zakim]
15:56:59 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P4 is me
15:56:59 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:57:12 [Zakim]
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+ +1.415.615.aabb
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15:58:54 [jarek]
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15:58:57 [jdaggett]
zakim, this is aabb
15:58:57 [Zakim]
sorry, jdaggett, I do not see a conference named 'aabb' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:59:06 [jdaggett]
zakim, aabb is me
15:59:06 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
15:59:09 [Zakim]
+ +1.212.318.aacc
15:59:21 [leif]
leif has joined #css
15:59:22 [jerenkrantz]
zakim, +aacc is me
15:59:23 [Zakim]
sorry, jerenkrantz, I do not recognize a party named '+aacc'
15:59:35 [jdaggett]
15:59:37 [Zakim]
15:59:39 [jerenkrantz]
zakim, aacc is me
15:59:39 [Zakim]
+jerenkrantz; got it
15:59:42 [Zakim]
15:59:53 [jdaggett]
zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
15:59:53 [Zakim]
sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:00:02 [Zakim]
+ +47.23.69.aadd
16:00:05 [smfr]
zakim is so stupid
16:00:06 [MaRakow]
Zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:00:06 [Zakim]
+MaRakow; got it
16:00:07 [leif]
Zakim, aadd is me
16:00:07 [Zakim]
+leif; got it
16:00:07 [jdaggett]
zakim, IPcaller is me
16:00:08 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
16:00:11 [Zakim]
+ +1.619.846.aaee
16:00:12 [BradK]
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koji has joined #css
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16:00:50 [JohnJansen]
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16:01:01 [smfr]
smfr has changed the topic to:
16:01:37 [Zakim]
16:02:05 [Zakim]
16:02:23 [Zakim]
16:02:35 [Zakim]
16:03:01 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJanse
16:03:01 [Zakim]
+JohnJanse; got it
16:03:05 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:03:05 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
16:04:59 [Zakim]
+ +44.180.383.aaff
16:05:27 [glazou]
Zakim, who is here?
16:05:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see krit, glazou, glenn, plinss, Stearns, jdaggett.a, jdaggett, dael, jerenkrantz, smfr, MaRakow, leif, +1.619.846.aaee, sgalineau, BradK, jerenkrantz.a,
16:05:31 [Zakim]
... [Microsoft], fantasai, +44.180.383.aaff
16:05:31 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:05:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JohnJansen, koji, BradK, leif, jarek, smfr, Dael, oyvind, MaRakow, dbaron, glenn, jdaggett, jerenkrantz, antonp, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, krit, sgalineau, lmclister,
16:05:31 [Zakim]
... shezbaig_wk, teoli, cabanier, krijnh, liam, logbot, gsnedders, fantasai
16:05:34 [rhauck]
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16:05:45 [Zakim]
16:05:49 [antonp1]
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16:05:52 [sgalineau]
scribenick: sylvaing
16:06:12 [tantek]
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16:06:25 [glazou]
16:06:29 [sgalineau]
Topic: css3-fonts publication
16:06:38 [shezbaig_wk]
Zakim, aacc also holds shezbaig_wk
16:06:38 [Zakim]
sorry, shezbaig_wk, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
16:06:53 [sgalineau]
jdaggett: I'd like to move to LC. I think we can resolve the italics issue at the f2f
16:07:04 [antonp1]
Zakim, who is on the phone
16:07:04 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', antonp1
16:07:12 [sgalineau]
jdaggett: I'd rather discuss LC issues at the f2f a few weeks from now
16:07:17 [glazou]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see krit, glazou, glenn, plinss, Stearns, jdaggett.a, jdaggett, dael, jerenkrantz, smfr, MaRakow, leif, +1.619.846.aaee, sgalineau, BradK, jerenkrantz.a,
16:07:20 [Zakim]
... [Microsoft], fantasai, +44.180.383.aaff, dbaron
16:07:20 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:07:23 [shezbaig_wk]
Zakim, jerenkrantz.a is me
16:07:23 [Zakim]
+shezbaig_wk; got it
16:07:25 [tantek]
Zakim, who is here?
16:07:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see krit, glazou, glenn, plinss, Stearns, jdaggett.a, jdaggett, dael, jerenkrantz, smfr, MaRakow, leif, +1.619.846.aaee, sgalineau, BradK, shezbaig_wk, [Microsoft],
16:07:28 [Zakim]
... fantasai, +44.180.383.aaff, dbaron
16:07:28 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:07:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see tantek, antonp1, rhauck, JohnJansen, koji, BradK, leif, jarek, smfr, Dael, oyvind, MaRakow, dbaron, glenn, jdaggett, jerenkrantz, antonp, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou,
16:07:28 [Zakim]
... krit, sgalineau, lmclister, shezbaig_wk, teoli, cabanier, krijnh, liam
16:07:33 [glazou]
Zakim, aaff is antonp
16:07:34 [Zakim]
+antonp; got it
16:07:34 [sgalineau]
jdaggett: I responded to text-decoration issues; I am not sure whether Elika wants to resolve this first
16:07:44 [Zakim]
16:07:44 [antonp1]
Zakim, aaff is me
16:07:46 [Zakim]
sorry, antonp1, I do not recognize a party named 'aaff'
16:07:46 [sgalineau]
fantasai: I am ok to go to LC based on John Hudson's response
16:08:02 [glazou]
who just joined from MSFT ?
16:08:14 [sgalineau]
fantasai: I think there is an interaction we need to resolve; LC is fine if the italics issue is noted
16:08:18 [israelh]
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16:08:18 [sgalineau]
jdaggett: it is noted
16:08:26 [Zakim]
16:08:33 [koji]
zakim, [ipcaller] is me
16:08:33 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
16:08:45 [antonp1]
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16:08:49 [Zakim]
16:09:10 [Rossen]
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16:09:32 [sgalineau]
RESOLVED: publish LC of css3-fonts (next Thursday)
16:09:50 [Zakim]
16:09:51 [stearns]
+1 from me
16:09:55 [antonp1]
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16:10:02 [Rossen]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:10:02 [Zakim]
+Rossen; got it
16:10:04 [antonp1]
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16:10:13 [glazou]
16:10:18 [sgalineau]
Topic: splitting Exclusions and Shapes
16:10:41 [c_palmer]
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16:10:49 [sgalineau]
astearns: we discussed this a number of times in the past. they are separate features with separate use-cases; they should advance more quickly if they are not tied to each other
16:10:55 [sgalineau]
Rossen: +1
16:10:59 [sgalineau]
fantasai: no objection
16:11:05 [glazou]
glazou: +1
16:11:10 [sgalineau]
glenn: does this involve new editors?
16:11:19 [sgalineau]
astearns: no change expected at the moment
16:11:39 [sgalineau]
RESOLVED: split Exclusions and Shapes in separate modules
16:11:47 [antonp]
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16:12:11 [sgalineau]
astearns: I will come back next week and ask for WD publications for both
16:12:15 [glazou]
16:12:19 [sgalineau]
Topic: CSS Regions WD
16:12:29 [sgalineau]
astearns: this is just a WD update; the current one is 9 months old
16:12:39 [sgalineau]
glazou: I support this; there have been quite a few changes
16:12:53 [sgalineau]
bradk: I did not like the move from @region to a pseudo-element
16:13:21 [sgalineau]
bradk: I think this is a big change
16:13:30 [sgalineau]
rossen: I would like another week to review this
16:13:41 [sgalineau]
astearns: ok, let's do this next week.
16:13:48 [glazou]
16:14:41 [sgalineau]
glazou: action on everyone to review Syntax two weeks from now
16:14:54 [glazou]
16:15:13 [sgalineau]
topic: Multicol
16:15:25 [sgalineau]
glazou: should we go back to LC given the latest changes?
16:15:46 [sgalineau]
fantasai: it would be good to review these changes in detail, specifically the painting order update
16:16:07 [sgalineau]
rossen: I also have a couple of updates; one is the drawing order of rules resolved in Tucson
16:16:23 [sgalineau]
rossen: also multicolumn columns creating their own BFC, which we discussed last week
16:16:39 [sgalineau]
rossen: so going back to LC seems reasonable
16:17:01 [sgalineau]
antonp: I think other issues need addressing; I support LC as well
16:17:09 [sgalineau]
fantasai: we should try resolving these before publishing LC
16:17:52 [sgalineau]
Topic: CSS Filters WD
16:18:48 [sgalineau]
krit: I added feedback to the security section indicating there is pending work; I would like to publish a new WD
16:18:57 [sgalineau]
glazou: do not forget to add a change section to your documents
16:19:08 [sgalineau]
RESOLVED: publish new WD of CSS Filters
16:19:24 [sgalineau]
Topic: CSS Counter Styles
16:19:42 [sgalineau]
fantasai: there was a discussion to rename the width descriptor to 'pad'
16:20:01 [sgalineau]
fantasai: this is the only issue raised thus far; we would like to resolve this and move to LC
16:20:07 [stearns]
16:20:10 [fantasai]
16:20:20 [sgalineau]
jdaggett: can we hold this one more week for additional review?
16:20:24 [sgalineau]
fantasai: ok
16:20:36 [sgalineau]
glazou: objections to the proposed renaming?
16:21:25 [sgalineau]
RESOLVED: width descriptor renamed to pad (counter styles)
16:21:36 [sgalineau]
Topic: Text Decoration issues
16:21:46 [sgalineau]
fantasai: some of these might be better dealt with face-to-face
16:22:04 [fantasai]
16:22:32 [sgalineau]
fantasai: we discussed this one last week and did not resolve it
16:22:38 [sgalineau]
fantasai: I have no opinion
16:22:59 [sgalineau]
glazou: what do browsers do?
16:23:03 [sgalineau]
fantasai: they do not interop
16:23:08 [sgalineau]
glazou: I do not have an opinion
16:23:35 [sgalineau]
dbaron: I have a slight preference for repeating the color of the decoration in the shadow
16:24:17 [sgalineau]
RESOLVED: decoration color is reflected in text-shadow
16:24:48 [sgalineau]
jdaggett: I think we can defer the super/subscript discussion to next week or the f2f.
16:25:00 [sgalineau]
jdaggett: I have no opinion on the other issues on the agenda
16:25:04 [glazou]
16:25:13 [fantasai]
16:25:28 [sgalineau]
fantasai: issue 11 is about whether line position should be per-line or across lines
16:25:31 [fantasai]
16:25:55 [fantasai]
"In determining the position of and thickness of text decoration lines, user agents may consider the font sizes of and dominant baselines of descendants, but must use the same baseline and thickness on each line."
16:26:35 [sgalineau]
fantasai: what does it mean 'on each line'? does it mean that the position is the same for all lines, or does one evaluate the position for each line individually?
16:27:23 [sgalineau]
fantasai: I think the original intent was to deal with cases where the same line included subscript, superscript, large text etc and we wanted to avoid ransom-style underlining
16:27:53 [sgalineau]
dbaron: I think the intent was also to avoid position and thickness to change between lines
16:28:37 [sgalineau]
fantasai: if you want a constant position across lines, you ignore all descendants; or you consider them and account for them
16:29:13 [sgalineau]
fantasai: if you do the latter then for each decorating box you need to layout all your lines to figure out the consistent position/thickness which could be a perf concern
16:29:24 [sgalineau]
fantasai: if there is a perf concern we could scope the averaging to each linebox
16:29:39 [sgalineau]
fantasai: or we ignore descendants
16:30:03 [sgalineau]
fantasai: but without considering the descendants strikethrough may break
16:30:24 [sgalineau]
jdaggett, dbaron: varying underline/decorations between lines does not sound like a good idea for authors
16:31:01 [sgalineau]
dbaron: I think considering descendants is a bad idea. it's not compatible with what browsers do today.
16:31:14 [sgalineau]
dbaron: we should leave it as it is
16:31:35 [sgalineau]
rossen: I am in favor of keeping this as it is
16:31:46 [sgalineau]
fantasai: keeping the spec as it is?
16:31:53 [sgalineau]
rossen, dbaron: keep the runtime behavior and update the spec
16:32:04 [sgalineau]
fantasai: browsers do different things though
16:32:23 [sgalineau]
fantasai: I have a test case where Opera appears to consider descendants...
16:32:34 [fantasai]
<p style="text-decoration: underline;"><big style="font-size: 64px">BIG TEXT</big> text <small style="font-size: 4px">small text</small>
16:32:38 [plh]
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16:32:58 [Rossen]
16:33:15 [glazou]
or data:text/html,<p style="text-decoration: underline;"><big style="font-size: 64px">BIG TEXT</big> text <small style="font-size: 4px">small text</small>
16:33:27 [fantasai]
16:33:41 [sgalineau]
fantasai: link above is the issue Aryeh raised
16:33:59 [sgalineau]
fantasai: …about strikethrough. we discussed this before.
16:34:20 [sgalineau]
rossen: our underline behavior follows Word's closely
16:34:58 [sgalineau]
fantasai: does this mean you have multiple decoration positions across line?
16:35:06 [sgalineau]
rossen: there is averaging in more recent versions
16:35:25 [sgalineau]
glazou: should we defer to f2f?
16:35:28 [sgalineau]
fantasai: yes
16:35:46 [sgalineau]
fantasai: most of the other issues relate to this so let's move on
16:35:53 [glazou]
16:35:55 [sgalineau]
Topic: Flexbox
16:36:31 [sgalineau]
fantasai: also better to push more flexbox issues to f2f; nothing easy
16:36:35 [sgalineau]
Topic: calc()
16:36:36 [glazou]
16:36:45 [sgalineau]
glazou: where is calc() allowed?
16:36:58 [sgalineau]
glazou: in particular, whether it can be used in a MQ?
16:37:31 [sgalineau]
bradk: wouldn't be easier to define where it can't be used?
16:37:43 [sgalineau]
fantasai: we should think about all the places where it can be used and consider examples
16:38:34 [sgalineau]
glazou: who will do this review? when?
16:38:53 [sgalineau]
fantasai: we can talk about media queries now
16:39:24 [sgalineau]
dbaron: media queries can't take percentages for width so this limits its value
16:39:35 [sgalineau]
dbaron: but I do not object allowing calc with different units
16:39:41 [nvdbleek]
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16:39:45 [sgalineau]
glazou: are there use-cases for this? do authors ask for it?
16:39:55 [nvdbleek]
zakim, code?
16:39:55 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, nvdbleek
16:39:56 [sgalineau]
fantasai: yes I think some people asked for it
16:40:14 [sgalineau]
glazou: I never needed it when I used MQ; I can't think of a use-case...
16:40:14 [BradK]
That wasn't me that said that, sylvaing
16:40:29 [Zakim]
16:40:38 [nvdbleek]
zakim, mute me
16:40:38 [Zakim]
nvdbleek should now be muted
16:40:49 [stearns]
@media screen and (min-width: calc(20em + 6px))
16:40:55 [stearns]
16:41:57 [sgalineau]
glazou: objection to allow calc?
16:42:06 [tantek]
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16:42:14 [sgalineau]
RESOLVED: calc() can be used inside media queries
16:42:40 [glazou]
16:42:47 [sgalineau]
Topic: Grid layout
16:43:04 [Zakim]
16:43:30 [glazou]
sorry wrong URL :
16:43:53 [sgalineau]
fantasai: we have prose about grid properties computed values; some of them return the used value
16:44:11 [fantasai]
16:44:22 [sgalineau]
fantasai: so do we want to allow getComputedStyle() to return these used values, or does it return the computed value?
16:44:59 [sgalineau]
dbaron: isn't there work around CSSOM in this area? we should look at how this interacts
16:45:12 [sgalineau]
fantasai: how does that change our decision?
16:45:19 [Zakim]
16:46:05 [sgalineau]
glenn: the CSSOM uses the term resolved values for getComputedStyle(); in some cases you will get used value, in others computed value e.g. left, top, bottom return used values
16:46:26 [sgalineau]
dbaron: I'm fine with the proposed resolution of returning computed values
16:46:28 [glenn]
16:47:55 [sgalineau]
fantasai: essentially getComputedStyle() returns used value in some cases for legacy reasons; the issue is whether new grid properties could require used value or should be consistent and return computed values for all of them
16:48:14 [sgalineau]
rossen: how does this work for tooling? This is the reason we returned used values.
16:48:44 [emalasky]
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16:48:45 [glenn]
e.g., getComputedStyle().lineHeight always returns used value
16:49:21 [shepazu]
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16:49:54 [glenn]
16:49:56 [sgalineau]
rossen: currently some MSFT tools use this, for instance
16:51:15 [sgalineau]
dbaron: I think we need to understand what your general strategy should be, especially in light of new APIs. But I agree we do not have a clear resolution for this specific issue
16:51:46 [sgalineau]
glazou: so this remains an open issue
16:51:53 [glenn]
one resolution is to define resolved value line for each property
16:51:53 [sgalineau]
Topic: an+b grammar
16:52:13 [sgalineau]
glenn, yes but what should it be in this case?
16:52:29 [glenn]
sgalineau: no opinion in this specific case
16:52:57 [sgalineau]
fantasai: we should not be making changes from the grammar of selectors3
16:53:20 [sgalineau]
glazou: I think the current discussion is extending the set of allowed values
16:53:35 [sgalineau]
fantasai: right, I want to know why it can't be the same as in 3?
16:53:56 [sgalineau]
glazou: everyone should review this item for next week
16:54:19 [sgalineau]
glazou: we need to discuss this before it goes in a WD
16:54:28 [sgalineau]
glazou: anything else?
16:54:59 [sgalineau]
glazou: please add things we deferred for the f2f to the wiki
16:55:12 [Zakim]
16:55:14 [Zakim]
- +1.619.846.aaee
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16:55:25 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:55:25 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.415.832.aaaa, krit, glazou, glenn, plinss, Stearns, +1.415.615.aabb, dael, jdaggett, +1.212.318.aacc, smfr, jerenkrantz, +47.23.69.aadd, MaRakow, leif,
16:55:25 [Zakim]
... +1.619.846.aaee, sgalineau, BradK, fantasai, JohnJanse, JohnJansen, +44.180.383.aaff, dbaron, shezbaig_wk, antonp, [Microsoft], koji, Rossen, nvdbleek
16:55:25 [smfr]
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16:55:36 [hober]
Zakim, aaee is me
16:55:36 [Zakim]
sorry, hober, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee'
16:55:42 [antonp]
aadd was me
16:55:51 [antonp]
16:55:53 [hober]
Zakim, aaee was me
16:55:53 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aaee was me', hober
16:56:14 [antonp]
Zakim, get coffee
16:56:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'get coffee', antonp
16:56:17 [glenn]
when last person disconnects, zakim forgets about attendees
16:56:25 [glenn]
16:56:37 [glenn]
we should have ralph fix that
16:58:40 [teoli]
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17:06:13 [dbaron]
better than being aaiieeeeee
17:41:57 [teoli]
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21:38:28 [krit]
Hi. Can anyone provide me a link to the IRC logs of this channel please?
21:39:32 [hober]
21:39:51 [krit]
thanks hober!
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22:04:50 [sgalineau]
krit: we also have
22:06:14 [krit]
sgalineau: thanks, for the next WD :)
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22:26:08 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'where are we'
22:28:04 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop logging', liam. Try /msg RRSAgent help
22:28:10 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items